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Some rumors & facts, 1969 a brief history on the Stones
Posted by: VideoJames ()
Date: August 23, 2013 11:19

Some Peope have asked whether Brian Jones played on HTW, He may have contributed
something to a very very early take of Country Honk. An interview with BJ's father his father talked of Brian having played a Early demo of HTW to him and Brian was very excited about it. Whether Jones played on this demo is anyones guess (but you would think he must have played something if he was excited about the new track). The verson rock version of CH/HTW was started after Jones was done/stopped recording with the band so I believe it was Country Honk Jones's dad had heard. As far as the Let It Bleed/Sticky Fingers L.P.'s The original title for the Let It Bleed L.P. was Sticky Fingers, but it was rumored London Rec. honcho's were not happy with the title and threaten to stall the release (like they did with Beggars Banquet). A fight started between the Stones & the label over this ,so they had the L.P title "Sticky Fingers" changed to "Let It Bleed" (maybe a pun on the fighting going on over the SF Title) also Warhol's concept for the cover was also another problem. A sliver lining you might say came from the delay of the release. It got us a couple of tracks that may not have made it on "Let It Bleed" album one of which was "Gimmie Shelter".
Mick Taylor although anounced as the new member of the Rolling Stones in May, was not really a legal member until Aug. 1st 1970. That was when the contractual arrangements of a band known as the Rolling Stones (Jagger/Richards/Watts/Wyman & Jones) ended,and a new one to incude Mick Taylor could become offical. Believe it or not Mick Taylor was on a weekly salary with the band until then. But he did get a share 1/5 share of the profits from the 1969 US tour.
Speaking of the 1969 tour, the The Balitmore, NYC,& West Palm Beach were all taped (16trk audio) While NYC ,West Palm Beach & Altamont were filmed.The Maysles planned to film the Altamont Concert but the audio was going to be from external audio microphones (the way bootleggers did back then). But Luckly the Grateful Dead who were planning to record their show on 16 trk ,to be done by their good friend's "Bob & Betty" from Ambelic Studios. As we all know the Dead who were scheduled to close the show that night did not play. This left the master tapes blank and ready to be used for the Stones to use, other wise the Altamont show's audio would not be as good as it was for the movie.
The Stones 1969 tour almost didn't happen!! While the band had applied for work visa's to play concerts, they did not apply to record in the studio while here in the USA. By mistake while doing in a press interview in L.A, it was mentioned that they werer planning to record some songs for a new L.P. while here in the US. This some how got back to the people who gave the Stones their work premit to come and tour and threats were made to cancell their tour. THE Stones had said IT WAS A MISS QUOTE AND they were only talking about their permit to record the tour and not to record for a studio L.P. in a studio. This explains why when we see the Stones at Muscle Shoals studio's in the Gimmie Shelter movie they are only listening to play back and not filmed recording the 3 songs found later on "Sticky Finger". Hope this helps to answer some questions asked in earlier post. There is lots more stories /rumors but I'll stop here.

Re: Some rumors & facts, 1969 a brief history on the Stones
Posted by: His Majesty ()
Date: August 23, 2013 11:56

Brian's parents visited on the weekend of 18th May 1969 so it could have been the more country like approach or a rockier version as atleast 5 different versions were recorded from March to May 1969.

The evolution of HTW was a long drawn out process spread over months. The essentials of the released version of Country Honk being recorded in amongst some of the rockier attempts.

In Bill's Stone Alone book he mentions Brian being in the studio in May.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-08-23 12:45 by His Majesty.

Re: Some rumors & facts, 1969 a brief history on the Stones
Posted by: 69firebird ()
Date: August 23, 2013 12:09

From what I read, the Grateful Dead were scheduled to play before the Rolling Stones.When they decided not to play,there was a long gap before the Rolling Stones
came on stage. This added to the tension already there from the Hells Angeles.Which in turn added more fuel to the fire.Even though this concert had major problems,I would love to see a video of the entire show.

Re: Some rumors & facts, 1969 a brief history on the Stones
Posted by: VideoJames ()
Date: August 23, 2013 13:26

No, According to Rock Scully & I believe Sam Cutler the plan was to let the crowd stay while the Stones left, and let the Dead who were known for long shows 3-4 hrs play out the rest of festival.But because of the tension that was going on that day the Dead decided it would be best to end the show after the Stones finished and get people out before more trouble continued especialy now that night had fallen. The entire show exist on film as does the audio. a private video 3+ hrs exist of the whole festival, I have seen the video and it's in B/W. I have the Stones segment only. There is also a couple of private 8mm home movies and a 1/2 hour TV news special that was aired the next day on local TV. Euro radio(French)also did a live broadcast of the show also that exist (in good quality). Some of the Maysles film reels were lost (stolen?) that day, some one out there has them. Also a alternate cut of Gimmie Shelter movie was made that also got lost this one had the Stones performing "Midnight Rambler" in it with cut aways of Keith rolling a joint backstage. Maysles never did get the film back.
Anyone seen it around, I tracked to Fla. but then lost my lead to it.

Quote
69firebird
From what I read, the Grateful Dead were scheduled to play before the Rolling Stones.When they decided not to play,there was a long gap before the Rolling Stones
came on stage. This added to the tension already there from the Hells Angeles.Which in turn added more fuel to the fire.Even though this concert had major problems,I would love to see a video of the entire show.

Re: Some rumors & facts, 1969 a brief history on the Stones
Posted by: Rolling Hansie ()
Date: August 23, 2013 16:18

VideoJames ... that name rings a bell to me. Is it in Bill German's book ?

-------------------
Keep On Rolling smoking smiley

Re: Some rumors & facts, 1969 a brief history on the Stones
Posted by: Eleanor Rigby ()
Date: August 23, 2013 16:38

Videojames..please explain more about this private b/w video!!
Where is it shot from?
What is the audio like?
Thanks

Re: Some rumors & facts, 1969 a brief history on the Stones
Posted by: Deltics ()
Date: August 23, 2013 19:15

Quote
Rolling Hansie
VideoJames ... that name rings a bell to me. Is it in Bill German's book ?

The name rang a bell with me too then I remembered that it had been used in reference to James Karnbach.


"As we say in England, it can get a bit trainspottery"

Re: Some rumors & facts, 1969 a brief history on the Stones
Posted by: bye bye johnny ()
Date: August 23, 2013 19:52

Quote
VideoJames
As we all know the Dead who were scheduled to close the show that night did not play.

In his book Searching For The Sound, Grateful Dead bassist Phil Lesh said the Dead were scheduled to play before the Stones.

Re: Some rumors & facts, 1969 a brief history on the Stones
Posted by: 2000 LYFH ()
Date: August 23, 2013 20:10

Quote
bye bye johnny
Quote
VideoJames
As we all know the Dead who were scheduled to close the show that night did not play.

In his book Searching For The Sound, Grateful Dead bassist Phil Lesh said the Dead were scheduled to play before the Stones.

I have DeadBase V (The Complete Guide to Greateful Dead Song Lists) and it states in the Cancelled Shows section:

12-06-69 Altamont Speedway, Ca.- The Dead were supposed to play following the Rolling Stones but after the stabbing it was thought best to bring things to a close as quickly as possible.

Re: Some rumors & facts, 1969 a brief history on the Stones
Posted by: bye bye johnny ()
Date: August 23, 2013 20:17

Obviously there are differing stories. Just cited Lesh's.

Re: Some rumors & facts, 1969 a brief history on the Stones
Posted by: 2000 LYFH ()
Date: August 23, 2013 20:35

Quote
bye bye johnny
Obviously there are differing stories. Just cited Lesh's.

I don't know what to believe!

This article says - Grateful Dead was scheduled to perform after Jefferson Airplane, but refused, leaving the rowdy audience to wait for the Rolling Stones to take the stage.

[voices.yahoo.com]

Re: Some rumors & facts, 1969 a brief history on the Stones
Posted by: bye bye johnny ()
Date: August 23, 2013 20:52

According to Lesh, they were to follow Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young, who were preceded by the Airplane.

BTW, Lesh's book was published in 2005, several years after the Dead Base series.

Re: Some rumors & facts, 1969 a brief history on the Stones
Posted by: His Majesty ()
Date: August 23, 2013 21:00

In Gimme Shelter the dead arrive after or atleast during Airplane's set.

Re: Some rumors & facts, 1969 a brief history on the Stones
Posted by: bye bye johnny ()
Date: August 23, 2013 21:11

And Michael Shrieve greets Jerry and Phil with the news that the Angels beat up Marty Balin.

Re: Some rumors & facts, 1969 a brief history on the Stones
Posted by: stonehearted ()
Date: August 23, 2013 23:24

Quote
2000 LYFH
I don't know what to believe!

This article says - Grateful Dead was scheduled to perform after Jefferson Airplane, but refused, leaving the rowdy audience to wait for the Rolling Stones to take the stage.

[voices.yahoo.com]

Let's believe the Gimme Shelter movie. The lawyer Mel Belli seems to be working on behalf of The Rolling Stones in getting the free concert set up and organizing backers to host the venue--he's even got Stones staff people in his office.

Also, it was Mick Jagger who hired "security" in the form of HAs. If they weren't the headliner, then why would they be attending to such a detail?

Below is a link to an archive article from Rolling Stone detailing a lawsuit filed in the wake of Altamont. In the article, the event is referred to as "the Rolling Stones' free concert at Altamont...."

Article at: [www.rollingstone.com]

Re: Some rumors & facts, 1969 a brief history on the Stones
Posted by: 2000 LYFH ()
Date: August 24, 2013 01:25

Quote
stonehearted
Quote
2000 LYFH
I don't know what to believe!

This article says - Grateful Dead was scheduled to perform after Jefferson Airplane, but refused, leaving the rowdy audience to wait for the Rolling Stones to take the stage.

[voices.yahoo.com]

Let's believe the Gimme Shelter movie. The lawyer Mel Belli seems to be working on behalf of The Rolling Stones in getting the free concert set up and organizing backers to host the venue--he's even got Stones staff people in his office.

Also, it was Mick Jagger who hired "security" in the form of HAs. If they weren't the headliner, then why would they be attending to such a detail?

Below is a link to an archive article from Rolling Stone detailing a lawsuit filed in the wake of Altamont. In the article, the event is referred to as "the Rolling Stones' free concert at Altamont...."

Article at: [www.rollingstone.com]

You expect me to believe all this!smoking smiley

Yeah you are probably right and no one is debating who the headliners were. It's also possible that the Dead was to play before the Stones (do a warm up set) and then after. The Stones wanted to come on after night fell which is probably some time around 5/5:30 being December. And how long did Stones sets last in 69 (60-90 minutes)? So I'm thinking that after the Stones and film crews left, the Dead could come out again and play for another couple of hours. This way everyone wasn't leaving at the same time, Stones only fans would leave and the Dead fans would stay on! But who knows? This was SF (home of the Dead) after all...

Re: Some rumors & facts, 1969 a brief history on the Stones
Posted by: stonehearted ()
Date: August 24, 2013 01:42

Quote
2000 LYFH
This was SF (home of the Dead) after all...

True, but it was the Stones' tour, and they had been around longer and were more popular overall.

By that point, there was only one other band that could headline above The Stones, and John Lennon had left that band, so that left The Stones at the top of the heap no matter where they played.

Re: Some rumors & facts, 1969 a brief history on the Stones
Posted by: Aquamarine ()
Date: August 24, 2013 01:52

In the context of that sort of festival, I don't think the band that plays last is necessarily the headliner, any more than the music played over the PA as the crowd drifts out. I'm sure nobody would argue that the Stones headlined Altamont, especially with all the publicity about them doing a free concert etc. So if the Dead had played a set (or a second set) after theirs, for whatever reason, it wouldn't have been defined as headlining. If the whole event had turned out differently, it might have actually been quite a good idea in terms of crowd management, etc.

Re: Some rumors & facts, 1969 a brief history on the Stones
Posted by: stonehearted ()
Date: August 24, 2013 02:11

Quote
Aquamarine
In the context of that sort of festival

At the time, Altamont was never referred to as a festival, but as a concert. You hear it mentioned in the press conference clip below announcing the event (beginning at 3:56) when a reporter asks, "I read in one of the papers that you'll be giving a free concert in San Francisco,..." to which Mick replies "Yes, we are doing a free concert in San Francisco....on December 6." Another reporter asks "Mister Jagger, why a free concert? Why are you giving away the town?" To which Mick replies "....San Francisco is really into that sort of thing...."

Altamont was really intended as the U.S. equivalent of their Hyde Park concert--an outdoor event for the day with several special guests to open for them, played before a large crowd.




Re: Some rumors & facts, 1969 a brief history on the Stones
Posted by: Mathijs ()
Date: August 24, 2013 13:34

Quote
VideoJames
The entire show exist on film as does the audio. a private video 3+ hrs exist of the whole festival, I have seen the video and it's in B/W. I have the Stones segment only. There is also a couple of private 8mm home movies and a 1/2 hour TV news special that was aired the next day on local TV. Euro radio(French)also did a live broadcast of the show also that exist (in good quality). Some of the Maysles film reels were lost (stolen?) that day, some one out there has them. Also a alternate cut of Gimmie Shelter movie was made that also got lost this one had the Stones performing "Midnight Rambler" in it with cut aways of Keith rolling a joint backstage. Maysles never did get the film back.
Anyone seen it around, I tracked to Fla. but then lost my lead to it.

I am not sure about that all. There are a couple of (terrible) private video's of parts of the show, but the Maysles brotheres have stated at various times that they only could film short parts of the Baltimore, MSG and Altamont shows as the tape canisters used had to be changed every 4 or 5 minutes, which took a couple of minutes as well. This is the reason why Satisfaction and HTW from GS are actually two shows combined. The Maysles stated that they agreed with Jagger beforehand which songs would be filmed and which not, and it is unlikely that long tracks like Sympathy and MR would be filmed at all.

I have not heard of local TV airing a special the next day, which of course is possible, but I would not expect anything more than snippets of the show. The French broadcast of parts of the show, 5 or 6 tracks, was horrible mono SB quality, which the usual French comments over the audio.

Mathijs

Re: Some rumors & facts, 1969 a brief history on the Stones
Posted by: Mathijs ()
Date: August 24, 2013 13:42

Quote
VideoJames
Some Peope have asked whether Brian Jones played on HTW, He may have contributed
something to a very very early take of Country Honk. An interview with BJ's father his father talked of Brian having played a Early demo of HTW to him and Brian was very excited about it. Whether Jones played on this demo is anyones guess (but you would think he must have played something if he was excited about the new track).

Mick Taylor although anounced as the new member of the Rolling Stones in May, was not really a legal member until Aug. 1st 1970. That was when the contractual arrangements of a band known as the Rolling Stones (Jagger/Richards/Watts/Wyman & Jones) ended,and a new one to incude Mick Taylor could become offical.

Speaking of the 1969 tour, the The Balitmore, NYC,& West Palm Beach were all taped (16trk audio) While NYC ,West Palm Beach & Altamont were filmed.The Maysles planned to film the Altamont Concert but the audio was going to be from external audio microphones (the way bootleggers did back then). But Luckly the Grateful Dead who were planning to record their show on 16 trk ,to be done by their good friend's "Bob & Betty" from Ambelic Studios.

Of course Brian could have contributed to CH, but it would be strange he was excited about it: according to just about any and all Brian wasn't interested in the Stones anymore at all, and couldn't give a damn. In any event, he's not on the released version.

Concerning Taylor as legal member: the 1970 contract actually stated that the Stones as a band consist of 5 members, of which one was always to be Mick Jagger. This pissed off Keith quite a bit.

West Palm Beach was not taped nor filmed: they stopped filming after Altamont, and stopped recording after the 1969 tour was over: after the two Boston shows.

Mathijs

Re: Some rumors & facts, 1969 a brief history on the Stones
Posted by: His Majesty ()
Date: August 24, 2013 13:57

West Palm Beach was before Altamont.

Jones could have played on the rockier versions of HTW. Any version that was recorded up to 18th May atleast. He still attended some sessions right up to and including May 1969. It would not be strange for him to be excited about something he played or as his dad put it "It was his arrangement".



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-08-24 14:03 by His Majesty.

Re: Some rumors & facts, 1969 a brief history on the Stones
Posted by: Mathijs ()
Date: August 24, 2013 14:02

Quote
His Majesty
West Palm Beach was before Altamont.

Sure, but the 'official' ending of the tour was Boston, they played the WPB festival as a gesture to the organiser. When Altamont was planned at the very late stage the decision was made to film it.

Mathijs

Re: Some rumors & facts, 1969 a brief history on the Stones
Posted by: with sssoul ()
Date: August 24, 2013 16:05

Quote
Mathijs
Concerning Taylor as legal member: the 1970 contract actually stated that the Stones as a band consist of 5 members,
of which one was always to be Mick Jagger. This pissed off Keith quite a bit.

The contract with whom, please and thank you kindly?

Re: Some rumors & facts, 1969 a brief history on the Stones
Posted by: His Majesty ()
Date: August 24, 2013 16:09

Quote
Mathijs
Quote
His Majesty
West Palm Beach was before Altamont.

Sure, but the 'official' ending of the tour was Boston, they played the WPB festival as a gesture to the organiser. When Altamont was planned at the very late stage the decision was made to film it.

Mathijs

Just clarifying because the way you worded things was odd. smiling smiley



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-08-25 01:57 by His Majesty.

Re: Some rumors & facts, 1969 a brief history on the Stones
Posted by: Aquamarine ()
Date: August 25, 2013 01:17

Quote
stonehearted
Quote
Aquamarine
In the context of that sort of festival

At the time, Altamont was never referred to as a festival, but as a concert.

True--I used the wrong word there, and I did subsequently refer to it as a free concert. But if I substitute "outdoor show," the same point about headliners applies. (It was really the sort of event that came to be known as a one-day festival.)

Re: Some rumors & facts, 1969 a brief history on the Stones
Posted by: Gazza ()
Date: August 25, 2013 03:33

Quote
stonehearted
Quote
2000 LYFH
This was SF (home of the Dead) after all...

True, but it was the Stones' tour, and they had been around longer and were more popular overall.

By that point, there was only one other band that could headline above The Stones, and John Lennon had left that band, so that left The Stones at the top of the heap no matter where they played.

Its not unheard of for a headliner at a festival to NOT be the closing act.

Re: Some rumors & facts, 1969 a brief history on the Stones
Posted by: Aquamarine ()
Date: August 25, 2013 03:40

That's what I was saying up there somewhere. ^^

Re: Some rumors & facts, 1969 a brief history on the Stones
Posted by: 24FPS ()
Date: August 25, 2013 04:04

I just finished Sam Cutler's book. He said as the tension grew in the afternoon they decided the Stones would take the stage right then, do their set and get the hell out of there. The problem was that Bill had gone shopping. And since they didn't have cell phones then, there was no way to contact him. He returned when he was originally scheduled to be there, which was nightfall, and they immediately took the stage.

Re: Some rumors & facts, 1969 a brief history on the Stones
Posted by: Mathijs ()
Date: August 26, 2013 16:35

Quote
with sssoul
Quote
Mathijs
Concerning Taylor as legal member: the 1970 contract actually stated that the Stones as a band consist of 5 members,
of which one was always to be Mick Jagger. This pissed off Keith quite a bit.

The contract with whom, please and thank you kindly?

It started in August 1970 with the formation of Rolling Stones Records, and the take over of Rupert Loewenstein dealing with their TAX affairs. The 'Mick Jagger' clause was when they signed with WEA, via ATCO (USA) and Warner Bros in Europe.

Mathijs



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