I've been thinking about this for a while.
In the old days, we all wondered how the hell Keith's guitar
sounded so great on boots, and on Love you Love in particular,
until the secret about his tuning was let out of the bag.
Has his secret weapon turned into a boring cliche (in places)?
On Some Girls it's on one song (BTMMR), it's not on Emotional Rescue at all,
It's on one song on Tattoo You (SMU), but since Undercover (about the time a lot of press started to focus on it), it pops up more and more.
The first 3 songs on VL use that tuning.
Mind you, I love it when he plays it live (he sounded better using it with
Ampegs onstage rather than what he's been using the last few tours),
but maybe he should tone it down to one or 2 songs this next album.
I'd like to see him get back to the bending-the-knees Chuck Berry style
stuff. No one can touch him on that stuff. Listen to all the versions
of Star Star (or Starbucker!) from all the LA '75 shows.
There's one show from July 10 (I think) where on Star Star,
I don't think he's ever played better.
I do realize open tunings are part of his style and sound,
but maybe it's time to go back to the 6-string stuff and leave
the open-G tuning to maybe one or 2 per record.
What do y'all think?
Cheers.

Either that, or at least steer clear from this sus 4 chord stuff that SMU, SFM, BS are written around.
On BB and LIB he did really interesting things with open tuning. It seems the open G thing is a copout these days. From It must be Hell to Lowdown he usually has atleast one tune per album where wqe get the overfamiliar theme.

In the state that Keiths fingers are in, perhaps he could invent a new 3-string open tuning technique.
That would be easier on the knuckles, and I'm sure he could kick out some serious Stones style riffs.

Plus...less tuning work for the guitar technicians backstage.

>On Some Girls it's on one song (BTMMR)

Actually two: BTMMR and Some girls

>It's on one song on Tattoo You (SMU)

No, four actually: SMU, Black Limousine, Tops and Heaven.

>but maybe he should tone it down to one or 2 songs this next album.

Well, two of the four favourite songs on B2B are in open G: Low Down and Too Tight. Keith's writing skills are not limited to or by open G. Check out Talk is Cheap: some truly great riffs at a time Keith could still deliver.

Mathijs

On YCAGWYW he uses open E, so lets not forget the other open tunings.

Anyway when you write a song an open tuning can often be more inspirational because it sounds so 'different'.

You get a similar effect if you use a capo - things sound different again.

Then again you can use an open tuning and a capo ..... and so on.

Regards,

Ian.

Rolling Stones Tribute

Play Rolling Stones

Indeed he uses open-E on YCAGWYW on the original recording, but nowadays I think he uses open-G when played live.

Other open-E (or open-D) tunes are You Got The Silver and Prodigal Son (and some other I cannot think of right now ;-)

- Koen.

Hey Koen, do you think you could try to remember some more open E tunes? I didn't really pay attention to what tuning YCAGWYW was in. Always assumed it was G. because those opening chords he does live are pretty easy to do in G.
But what else is in E? Maybe some from Banquet?

Both of us being guitrar players, it was only a matter of time
before MAthijs and i disagreed on something.
Reagarding your response to my post regarding 5-string stuff,
On the song Some Girls, I think that could go either way (standard or 5).
Unless he used it as an overdub to pad it out, it sounds more like
standard to me. UNless, you've heard Pathe Marconi rehearsals that I haven't
that say othewise... which is quite possible,
Black Limousine sounds standard to me, too. Again, unless he put on
another guitar to pad it out, etc...
It sounds to me like 2 guitars weaving nicely. KR never seem the type
to use the 5-string for standard blues changes in the studio.
[LYL side 3 being an exception and that's live). He seems more creative than that.
Now, Tops I think can go either way again. You can play it on 5-string
or regular tuning. Again, unless you have a mix or version where
it's much more discernable.
Heaven is MJ on guitar. I remember reading an interview with KR
{I believe it was in the LA Times when TY came out) that stated
he heard the track (not the mix), knew nothing about it before, and loved it.
Then again, he said Little T&A was 5-string and that's BS.
I'll see if I can dig it up. I think I saved it somewhere.
Anyroad, that's MJ on guitar on HEaven.
Unless you have information otherwise...
and i never stated that his writing skills are limited to open g...
please. We all know that. Cheers.

HEAVEN is an amazing song.

The echo effect on the guitar and the groovin' reggae/dub repetitive bass line and beat is simply hypnotic. Whenever I get the urge to be critical of Micks guitar playing, I stop in my tracks and listen to this tune...very, very loudly I might add. In hindsight, it might have been nice if Keith could have added a few nice signature riffs here and there, but the track remains strong without him.


What about the controversy over who wrote the riff to Brown Sugar?

I say it's Keith, and only Keith, regardless of what Mick claims.

That's interesting considering Keith has told the world it was Mick and Mick alone.

I don't want it to completely go. It's part of a sound that I love hearing on Stones albums since 71 onward.

"ittle T&A"is open G I'm sure.
Sounds like it anyway.

Will have to check it out next time I'm watching an 81 show.

kyle m

Have you ever lent somebody $20 and never seen them again? It was probably worth it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2005-04-18 06:20 by monkey man.

T&A can't be in open-G 'cause it starts on an F chord,
Unless they slowed the tape down to that key,
which is possible, but not probable...
or as I stated before, there's another take
floating around with him in that tuning.
Speaking of opening tunings, don't forget Ronnie
playing Love in Vain in '78 on slide with an open E tuning.
It gives a slight different sound, (listen to boots).
Cross tuning...like cross harping with harmonicas.
Some people don't like it (remeber Dave MArsh's review in Rolling Stone
mag?), but I always found it interesting.

Open E: No Expectations, Dear Doctor (one guitar), Parachute Woman (one guitar), Jigsaw Puzzle, Prodigal Son, Salt of the Earth, slide on Love in Vain, slide on Let it Bleed, YCAGWYW.
Open D: Jumping Jack Flash, Child of the Moon, Street Fighting Man, Stray Cat Blues (one guitar), Prodigal Son, You Got the Silver, Gimme Shelter.

>On the song Some Girls, I think that could go either way (standard or 5)

No, it's Jagger (you're right, not Richards!) on rythm guitar in open G. You hear how he slides to the D on the 7th position (with the phase 100 on). And, soundwise is sounds like the A and D played in open G and not standard tuning. Again you're right, on the various outtakes it's more clear it's open G. Jagger played it in open G on the NS tour btw.

>Black Limousine sounds standard to me, too. Again, unless he put on

No, you can clearly hear the sus2 and sus4 chords in the rythm pattern, and the run at the end of bar 12 is run with the D and G string, with the low G added in the bass. Again, also the sound is typical open G, not standard tuning.

>Now, Tops I think can go either way again. You can play it on 5-string
Nope, open G again, and in my believe written by Taylor in open G, and not by Richards. The chords are very identical to the outtake Separately, which are all open chords with the high E string lowered to G ringing allong. You then get this airy, Jeff Buckly like sound scape. Then when the chorus comes you clearly hear the sound of open G, with the added sus4 chords. Btw, in 1981 live, Keith played it in open G (although he couldn't remember how it went...)

>Heaven is MJ on guitar
Absolutely true, but it is open G.

>Then again, he said Little T&A was 5-string and that's BS.

If I remember correctly it wasn't Keith that stated it was open G, but it was the interviewer (forgot his name) that got things all wrong. That interviewer also mentioned a 12-string live on Shattered and that Wood played the solo on Tumbling Dice in some kind of wierd E11 pedal steel tuning. Clearly the interviewer didn't know what he was talking about. Of course, T&A isn't in open G, you hear the low E string and the Am and Dm chords.

Brown Sugar was completely written by Jagger, as stated by Jagger, Richards, Wyman and Taylor.

Mathijs

Mathijs,

Are you sure that Gimme Shelter was played in open D ?
I always thought it was played in standard tuning.
Where did you get this information ?

Thanks,

Nicolas

Thanks Mathijs. This is where you shine. You should write a little about Stones guitar work.

Worried About You is Open G

Mathijs Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------


> >Black Limousine sounds standard to me, too.
> Again, unless he put on
>
> No, you can clearly hear the sus2 and sus4 chords
> in the rythm pattern, and the run at the end of
> bar 12 is run with the D and G string, with the
> low G added in the bass. Again, also the sound is
> typical open G, not standard tuning.


Anyone know how the intro of Black Limousine is played? I cannot figure it out, and didn't find any TAB.


thanks,

- Koen.

The only thing I am not 100% sure is MJ's guitar on Heaven. I hear a standard tuning there. But I could be wrong, of course, and anyway this is getting a little OT.

Re: 5 string open G. I agree with CD and Mathijs: as far as he doesn't go for a new start me up K has proved that it is not yet retirement time


C

Worried about you is NOT open G ! The great thing about Worried is that Keith plays all these open G licks in standard tuning with a capo on the fifth fret. You hear the E string ringing underneath the chords, and that E string is tuned standard to E. When the chorus starts, you hear the standard chord voicings of Dminor.

The intro of black limo is played with a slide in open E on the 15th fret. For the 1981 tour, Wood played the lick with his fingers in standard tuning, which is much harder to do.

Gimme Shelter is played in open D, you can hear the chord voicing clearly when Keith hits the A chord and heads back to C# through B, you hear the low D rumbling underneath.

I am not sure about Heaven. I always remembered it as being in open G, but I start to doubt it a bit. I'll check tonight.

Mathijs

Thank you Mathijs.

Now, I understand why I haven't been able to reproduce the studio version of Gimme Shelter properly.I also understand why the song has a different feeling when played live (in standard tuning).
For the new tour, it should be played in open E again. That would be great.

The same goes for JJF which should not be played in open G anymore.
When played in open G, then JJF riff sounds too thin.
I would like to see Keith play it just like during the rock'n'roll circus show.
It was incredible.

Nicolas

I agree with Nicolas that different tunings drastically affect the feel of a whole tune. Playing the riff, JUST the riff, is not always true. JJF is perfect example. And GS another. So Mathijs, I'm confused: in GS they play it in A??? Or in C sharp? And the sympathetic note ringing through all this is a D? Wow. I am not close to any instrument . I really need to try this. I haved been a musician all my life and have listened to the boys all my life too. Don't ever really play Stones songs though.

It was noted to me by my dear piano player that the meaning of "voicing" is not clear to everyone. The voicing of chords means nothing more than the sound of a chord. Any chord can be played on various locations on the neck of a guitar (or on the keyboard of a piano), and while the notes are all the same, the voicing (the way it sounds) differs. An E played on the first fret sounds different to an E played on the 8-th fret. Apply an open tuning, and well-known chords suddenly sound much different. There's a second meaning to voicing b.t.w.: if you play a low E chord and slide this shape across the fretboard (say to Amajor on the 5th fret), you play an Amajor in the voicing of E. This meaning is used in Jazz a lot, a music form I absolutely don't know anything about (let's play a Dadd9Dim3/F# voiced to B7. Yeah, cool!).

Anyways, Gimme SHelter is played in open D, and you can distinctly hear this by the voicing of the A and B chords: you can hear the detuned E string (tuned to D) ringing underneath the A and B chords (of course you hear the A and B note ringing, not the D note!). It's the voicing you hear: normally you play an A chord with the low A on the 5th fret E string as the root. In open D -because the E string is detuned- this root low A sound much darker and moodier, while it is the same A note as on standard tuning. Open D always sounds a bit moody and dark (that's why many nu-metal bands play open D tunings, or slack-D tunings like dropped D), open E sounds more stingy and aggressive, open G sounds a bit southern and country, open A sound bluesy, open C sounds "folky" and spacial. The best known Stones open D songs all have this moody and dark mood: Child of the Moon, Jumping Jack Flash, Gimme Shelter, Stray Cat Blues.

Mathijs



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2005-04-19 14:50 by Mathijs.

Check out Nick Drake for voicing of open chords!

Allright so no big deal then. I thought you were saying that in your opinion Keith was letting the opne D ring throughout the three chords. And it would be a stretch for Keith to keep a D ringing as a Bassnote on a D chord. While to my ears this actually sounds like a cool harmony it probably wouldn't fly in a straightup rocktune. And I know GS pretty well and was sure there were not such adventurous harmonies flying.
As far as "voicings" go it actually goes a whole lot deeper. Yes on the surface it means how a chord sounds. But "voicings" become a lot more intersting in context with each other, and then in context with the melody on top.
Just a couple of examples: in Jazz often the voicings (ie fingering) of a chord pattern is determined simply by common snese and comfort level for the fingers. You try to stay in the same area of the neck. That very often makes for this very cuttered close "jazzy" sounding chording. One might try to find the common bass note of 2 oe 3 chords and start building from there. If I'm in concert tuning and I want to play C/Eb/A7/Gsus I might begin by setting up shop with the G note on the low E. Instead of e.g. playing a C down at thew bottom and jumping way up to the 6th fret to hit a barred Eb. Thaty kind of stuff. Then this voicing of the chords can often determine the melody on top. One might want to follow the constant note or on purpose avoid the constant note with the melody. So If I am playing prominent Gs with these chords my melody might wnat to follow this. a good writer would probably choose to use any note BUT a G for the melody on top.
This is getting a little theoretical an oof topic.