Tell Me :
Talk
the order is indeed correct, with one caveat - the list is a little funky in that each edition of the song (album it appears on) is counted separately, so it's possible to "split the vote" between two albums (e.g. let it bleed and hot rocks for YCAGWYW). you'll see what i mean if you check out the link;
[itunes.apple.com]
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-08-05 10:36 by sonomastone.
Yeah, I've seen the list before. What baffles me is that Paint It Black is topping the list...
Actually I'm not that surprised. For a reason or other, that song has been aged damn well in the sense that it works well especially to the people who are not that fond of the Stones generally. Something to do with it extraordinary melody line I guess. Among younger people the song still seem to have a suitable "angst" to have eternal appeality... This is my own observation by being eyes open and also making my little pools... Sometime ago someone mentioned around the time of waiting for Glastonbury gog, that they should play it and "Gimme Shelter" there, since those two have a special popularity among young people.
Anyways, may I comment here Kleermaker's claim that fifteensomethings don't know anything of sixties albums. Surely that is true but give us a few years and that age range will not now what the hell an "album" is... but I think the Stones actually do not have a big problem, because, in the end, they are a "hits band" - known mostly for some striking singular songs, and the songs will live forever. Even if those are not played in main radio stations, they will be heard in tv commercials, movie soundtracks, grannie's records, etc. Somehow they just get through, as the history has shown. Too deep in our culture to die off.
But I am with you Dandie that the best indication to see what are the most popular songs is just to check their setlists - they play what people want to hear - to keep the costumers, those we call "casual fans", satisfied. Funnily, "Paint It Black" was ignored by the band for a long time. It took not until the "nostalgic turn" in 1989 to find its place to the setlist, and nowadays it is a "war horse". In France the song has topped the single list twice - in 1966 and 1990 (the last due to some tv series, but that is an early example of how the songs get through these days). In Hyde Park I wittnessed, the response in crowds was without a doubt among the biggest - lots of sing-a-longing and when the song finished people were still singing that melody line. If we leave the obvious "Satisfaction" out, I think only "Sympathy For The Devil" had something similar effect. From the base of footage, The Glastonbury gig, with a really virgin crowd, seemed to go along similar lines.
The sixties will be THE source of the most memorable and time-lasting Stones songs, with just a few additions later. "Satisfaction", "Paint It Black", "Jumpin' Jack Flash", "Sympathy For The Devil", "Honky Tonk Women", "Gimme Shelter", and I guess songs like "The Last Time","Ruby Tuesday", "Let's Spend The Night Together", "Street Fighting Man" and "You Can't Always Get What You Want" don't lurk far...
- Doxa
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2013-08-05 12:44 by Doxa.
I think there's been a nostalgic feeling amongst consumers since the early 1970s. This is true with both the Beatles and the Stones (but also LZ, Pink Floyd, Peter Noone, etc.).
Though initially released as a 'best of' collection, the ABCKO produced 'Hot Rocks' turned out to be your classic 'nostalgia' release for the Stones.
I'm sure many who see a Stones concert today the 'nostalgia' factor is even greater, so that for a Stones tour to be truly successful is to perform only the classic singles (with a few favorite album cuts thrown in as we've seen on this last tour).
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-08-05 15:45 by nightskyman.
Yep, and there he is, The Man Himself: Brian Jones!!!
2 1 2 0
When Mick Taylor plays guitar, the sound of The Rolling Stones comes out of it...it was right there from the first note of the first Rambler at the first London show. There's no going back now....
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2013-08-05 17:07 by kwf.
It's really quite simple, the vast amount of online activity about the early stones shows they are still very much a popular thing amongst people of all ages and backgrounds. Even those much derided 15 year olds.
14 plus million likes on facebook, even if only a small percentage of those likes and know about Brian Jones or the early albums (how could they not when there are posts about them on the very page they liked) it would still be a substantial number of people.
Their music continues to endure, engage and inspire. You and I and many like us are solid living proof of this.
Nonsense.
I agree with you nightskyman. But there are still quite some romantics here, who think their own musical discovery journey is exemplaric. The Stones music will never survive the way Mozart's, Bach's etc will imo. That music is still being played every minute of the day all around the world. But about hundred years later it's only the Beatles I guess who will be remembered as a symbol of the famous sixties of the 20th century. And maybe, maybe, the Stones will be mentioned as the eternal number two band. But who cares, we love their music, and even we differ very much in what we like and dislike.
Speaking of statistics: I've taken a look at my own YT-statistics, which is interesting. Here you go (it's mainly live songs from the Taylor-era of course, but that makes no difference and will confirm Doxa's thesis that the Stones are most of all a hit single band (and 'brand' as I say, with a big nostalgia-factor):
- number of views: 1,6 million (seems representative to me)
- age of viewers US (other countries likewise): 13–17: 0,8%; 18–24: 0,8%; 25–34: 2%; 35–44: 10,1%; 45–54: 48,7%; 55–64 jaar: 36%'; older than 65: 1,6%
- gender of viewers: male 85%, female 15%
- most viewed in: US (more than one third of the total number of views), UK, France, Germany, Japan.
- most viewed songs (total = about 160): 1) Plundered My Soul (especially because of the footage I guess and because it was some kind of hit single): 114.000; 2) Mick Taylor Sway Solo II: 109.000; 3) Best songs of the 1973 Tour: 80.000 (runner up); 4) Ventilator Blues: 77.000; 5) YCAGWYW live 1973 (with the longest Taylor live solo ever): 70.000; 6) Sweet Black Angel/Loving Cup live 1972: 59.000; 7) Winter Deluxe (Winter studio plus Taylor's own studio Winter solo combined): 53.000; 8) Torn and Frayed live 1972: 48.000; 9) Can't You Hear Me Knocking Glastonbury 2013: 41.000 (runner up); 10) Mick Taylor Sway Solo I: 39.000.
My conclusion: the Stones' fans are mainly men (85%), age between 45-64 (85%) and mostly from the western countries (US and Europe).
Of course it makes a difference.
All Taylor and all bootlegs.
I knew you would say that, but many replies are from non-Taylorians, and many of those songs are just (not true) Rolling Stones songs. Anyway, if it is for Taylor only then so many views is just remarkable. But I bet it's the same with all other Stones-relates YT-channel statistics.
I have my own jones focused channel(all bootleg material) but it's more of an uploading source for the facebook page, both of which are still quite new.
A mere 16,074 views.
Currently sits at 25.9 % female views.
Also, going by your numbers and the many blogs, facebook pages etc, Jones seems to attract a larger adult and teenage female audience than Taylor.
Quite odd given his history with women, but not so odd given his more pop star image etc.
14 million plus likes on stones own facebook page is something to be reckoned with though. That's 14 million potential people who are aware and like all era's of the stones and there's quite a number of young people posting on it.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2013-08-05 20:34 by His Majesty.
I'm not surprised. It seems to me that any new convert to the Rolling Stones is primarily geared towards the Brian-era. It is, after all, the period of Satisfaction, Paint It, Black, and Jumpin' Jack Flash.
My YT-channel is in the first place a Rolling Stones-channel and not a Taylor-channel. So you can't compare it to your specific B. Jones-channel in that way at all. I bet the percentage of men viewers will rise, even though the percentage of about 75% male is also quite high. But like you said Jones was in the first place a popstar to the (female) public. His history with women doesn't say other women anything. But maybe that's something you'll find out when when you grow older yourself.
For a self titled, supposedly intelligent person you don't half post a lot of stupid things.
They are much the same, a mostly Rolling Stones music channel focusing on for me Jones and for you Taylor. To say otherwise is to talk bollocks.
These females very much appreciate the music as well, or is appreciating music the exclusive domain of aging, receding hairline men with pretensions about superior intellegence and taste?
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2013-08-05 20:02 by His Majesty.
That last sentence says enough to me. You're trying to put words in my mouth that I never spoke, would speak or will ever speak. Besides I've had it with the ongoing ranting. So I end discussing with you. In another thread I already wrote that it's useless.
"The Brian Jones experience", seems to focus on Brian Jones in the first place. Which of course is allowed.
I don't hide the main focus of the page, but I was pondering changing it to The Rolling Stones Experience or some similar cheesy name because I have too much good stuff about them all to keep it focused on him.
On the facebook page I do post about others things, like where associated friends etc lived and so on.
The title of your youtube channel nor your name here hides what your main focus is either.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2013-08-05 20:17 by His Majesty.
Talk about your favorite band.
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Re: Who's your favorite Rolling Stone?
Posted by:
sonomastone
()
Date: August 5, 2013 10:33
Quote
DandelionPowdermanQuote
sonomastoneQuote
DandelionPowdermanQuote
kleermakerQuote
His Majesty
The Rolling Stones are simply far too big for any era of the band to really be considered as some kind of small cult. Their Facebook page alone currently sits at 14,470,583 likes, all ages, so many posts about all albums, all members and era's.
What is hardly anyone out of numbers like that?
Thousands of blogs and the like dedicated to the stones and it's members.
The albums always being reissued in some form.
They are still very relevant to a lot of people.
Still try that poll and let me know.
Back in the Brian-days, albums weren't really that important.
Try a poll for most popular song, and you'll quickly find that 4 or 5 of the 10 most popular tunes are with Brian - something the setlist on this tour proved.
no need to poll.
itunes lists the most popular stones songs.
1 Paint It Black
2 (I Can't Get No) Satisfaction
3 Wild Horses
4 Gimme Shelter
5 Beast of Burden
6 Sympathy for the Devil
7 Honky Tonk Women
8 You Can't Always Get What You Want
9 Start Me Up
10 Miss You
4-5 wasn't that badly guessed, then
EDIT: However, I refuse to belive that JJF is not on that list...
the order is indeed correct, with one caveat - the list is a little funky in that each edition of the song (album it appears on) is counted separately, so it's possible to "split the vote" between two albums (e.g. let it bleed and hot rocks for YCAGWYW). you'll see what i mean if you check out the link;
[itunes.apple.com]
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-08-05 10:36 by sonomastone.
Re: Who's your favorite Rolling Stone?
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: August 5, 2013 10:39
Quote
sonomastoneQuote
DandelionPowdermanQuote
sonomastoneQuote
DandelionPowdermanQuote
kleermakerQuote
His Majesty
The Rolling Stones are simply far too big for any era of the band to really be considered as some kind of small cult. Their Facebook page alone currently sits at 14,470,583 likes, all ages, so many posts about all albums, all members and era's.
What is hardly anyone out of numbers like that?
Thousands of blogs and the like dedicated to the stones and it's members.
The albums always being reissued in some form.
They are still very relevant to a lot of people.
Still try that poll and let me know.
Back in the Brian-days, albums weren't really that important.
Try a poll for most popular song, and you'll quickly find that 4 or 5 of the 10 most popular tunes are with Brian - something the setlist on this tour proved.
no need to poll.
itunes lists the most popular stones songs.
1 Paint It Black
2 (I Can't Get No) Satisfaction
3 Wild Horses
4 Gimme Shelter
5 Beast of Burden
6 Sympathy for the Devil
7 Honky Tonk Women
8 You Can't Always Get What You Want
9 Start Me Up
10 Miss You
4-5 wasn't that badly guessed, then
EDIT: However, I refuse to belive that JJF is not on that list...
the order is indeed correct, with one caveat - the list is a little funky in that each edition of the song (album it appears on) is counted separately, so it's possible to "split the vote" between two albums (e.g. let it bleed and hot rocks for YCAGWYW). you'll see what i mean if you check out the link;
[itunes.apple.com]
Yeah, I've seen the list before. What baffles me is that Paint It Black is topping the list...
Re: Who's your favorite Rolling Stone?
Posted by:
Doxa
()
Date: August 5, 2013 12:25
Quote
DandelionPowderman
What baffles me is that Paint It Black is topping the list...
Actually I'm not that surprised. For a reason or other, that song has been aged damn well in the sense that it works well especially to the people who are not that fond of the Stones generally. Something to do with it extraordinary melody line I guess. Among younger people the song still seem to have a suitable "angst" to have eternal appeality... This is my own observation by being eyes open and also making my little pools... Sometime ago someone mentioned around the time of waiting for Glastonbury gog, that they should play it and "Gimme Shelter" there, since those two have a special popularity among young people.
Anyways, may I comment here Kleermaker's claim that fifteensomethings don't know anything of sixties albums. Surely that is true but give us a few years and that age range will not now what the hell an "album" is... but I think the Stones actually do not have a big problem, because, in the end, they are a "hits band" - known mostly for some striking singular songs, and the songs will live forever. Even if those are not played in main radio stations, they will be heard in tv commercials, movie soundtracks, grannie's records, etc. Somehow they just get through, as the history has shown. Too deep in our culture to die off.
But I am with you Dandie that the best indication to see what are the most popular songs is just to check their setlists - they play what people want to hear - to keep the costumers, those we call "casual fans", satisfied. Funnily, "Paint It Black" was ignored by the band for a long time. It took not until the "nostalgic turn" in 1989 to find its place to the setlist, and nowadays it is a "war horse". In France the song has topped the single list twice - in 1966 and 1990 (the last due to some tv series, but that is an early example of how the songs get through these days). In Hyde Park I wittnessed, the response in crowds was without a doubt among the biggest - lots of sing-a-longing and when the song finished people were still singing that melody line. If we leave the obvious "Satisfaction" out, I think only "Sympathy For The Devil" had something similar effect. From the base of footage, The Glastonbury gig, with a really virgin crowd, seemed to go along similar lines.
The sixties will be THE source of the most memorable and time-lasting Stones songs, with just a few additions later. "Satisfaction", "Paint It Black", "Jumpin' Jack Flash", "Sympathy For The Devil", "Honky Tonk Women", "Gimme Shelter", and I guess songs like "The Last Time","Ruby Tuesday", "Let's Spend The Night Together", "Street Fighting Man" and "You Can't Always Get What You Want" don't lurk far...
- Doxa
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2013-08-05 12:44 by Doxa.
Re: Who's your favorite Rolling Stone?
Posted by:
His Majesty
()
Date: August 5, 2013 12:49
This talk gives the impression that only a couple of thousand people will be aware of such and such an album etc etc.
Millions of people like The Rolling Stones, their Facebook page alone has millions of likes, their music is being talked about and listened to. Of course the big cuts are going to be the main one's, but exposure leads to further investigation and investigation leads to all of their music. All just a click away.
Every single one of their albums is available to buy via many different outlets, legal and illegal.
A lot of blogs on tumblr and the like are by frustrated teenage girls wishing they were alive in the 60's and 70's.
Seems to me a bit of a reality check is needed, they are still a massive band and that obviously has a knock on effect with regards to the number of people of all ages who are aware of and actually like their music, form all era's.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-08-05 13:00 by His Majesty.
Millions of people like The Rolling Stones, their Facebook page alone has millions of likes, their music is being talked about and listened to. Of course the big cuts are going to be the main one's, but exposure leads to further investigation and investigation leads to all of their music. All just a click away.
Every single one of their albums is available to buy via many different outlets, legal and illegal.
A lot of blogs on tumblr and the like are by frustrated teenage girls wishing they were alive in the 60's and 70's.
Seems to me a bit of a reality check is needed, they are still a massive band and that obviously has a knock on effect with regards to the number of people of all ages who are aware of and actually like their music, form all era's.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-08-05 13:00 by His Majesty.
Re: Who's your favorite Rolling Stone?
Posted by:
Doxa
()
Date: August 5, 2013 14:20
His Majesty, I don't think the popularity of the Stones is denied here. They are still an incredibly mammouth band, and gather interest from any age group even if their fans' typical age will be around fifty or something (just a rough estimation). Many ways they defy the time and place, and have a certain appeal even to the "hipster" generation.
My point basically was that Kleermaker's claim against the early days - the sixties - was totally misguided. The pool of any fifteensomethings is totally irrelevant. Most of them don't know any song, to even think of album, of anyone from the past, be it The Beatles or whoever. And why should they? Maybe they will know later. The Stones are not doing any worse in this sense, and I think it is the opposite; they have some songs that are written in our cultural consciousness, and anyone, if having any reflection, will get to know them. But leave charming the big teenager generations out; The Stones only managed to do that in the 60's and 70's.
What goes for the albums, that seem to an issue of its own. Relatively speaking, the Stones have been very succesful, but not probably so well-sellers as their reputation might imply. There is no DARK SIDE OF THE MOON or BACK IN BLACK in their catalog, even though EXILE ON MAIN STREET starts to have a mythical status now, but which is not ever to be reflected in sales. The Stones are steady sellers, a no risk choice for their record companies (and especially their hit collections are certain sellers). Even back in the day when they were an "albums band", and albums sold generally incredible quantities, it was typical that they made number one spot positions - how many in a row in the US market from 1971 to 1981? - but their albums didn't chart very long. Only SOME GIRLS and TATTOO YOU were what one could say huge sellers, but still those were not any "RUMOURS", and even the "#1 row in USA was not so phenomanal compared to Zeppelin's achievements during the time frame. Compared to many big-name rivals in their heyday - The Beatles, Zep, Pink Floyd - their back catalog hasn't sell so large quantities afterwards.
Some time ago I saw an article in one charting/sales site (can't recall the name any longer), contributing the discussion considering a kind of "surprise" that the Stones have been rather "mediocre" sellers albumwise. It was very insightful, and a kind of argument I made above about The Stones being a "songs band" or "hits band" was also brought in. Also the itunes list was mentioned, showing also that of the old classical acts, The Stones are doing very well. The "real" popularity of the Stones cannot be seen by reflecting their album sales.
But the problem with the Stones album catalog is that it is a rather confusing wholeness, thanks for example, its dualist existence (credits to Klein); the mess concerning 60's prior SATANIC MAJESTIES albums; in the long run, its being rather uneven artistically (lots of obscurities), thanks to their long existence within such a big time frame; and the amount of 'greatest hits' collections, which include the 'needed' songs. And since even the most legendaric albums didn't sell so much in their hey-day, their over-all sales will not be so breath-taking ever, no matter how much they are praised now.
If we leave the obvious Beatles out (who are in the class of their own as sellers), the "problem" the Stones have with such huge acts like Zeppelin and Pink Floyd of their biggest 70's rivals, is that those two really made the art of album a token of its own - Zeppelin not even releasing singles. And that was "their" era. To hear them, you need to have the albums, and the latter became "hits" or "concepts" of their own. By contrast, the Stones became from a culture of hit singles or radio hits, and I think they never really get rid of that "reputation". And to really hit the time nerve, after STICKY FINGERS and EXILE - the latter being their probably strongest album wholeness - they didn't come up with an album that would hit so hard (except SOME GIRLS in the summer of 1978 in America).
Sorry being too cryptic... I don't know if I got my point through, whatever it was.
- Doxa
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2013-08-05 14:40 by Doxa.
My point basically was that Kleermaker's claim against the early days - the sixties - was totally misguided. The pool of any fifteensomethings is totally irrelevant. Most of them don't know any song, to even think of album, of anyone from the past, be it The Beatles or whoever. And why should they? Maybe they will know later. The Stones are not doing any worse in this sense, and I think it is the opposite; they have some songs that are written in our cultural consciousness, and anyone, if having any reflection, will get to know them. But leave charming the big teenager generations out; The Stones only managed to do that in the 60's and 70's.
What goes for the albums, that seem to an issue of its own. Relatively speaking, the Stones have been very succesful, but not probably so well-sellers as their reputation might imply. There is no DARK SIDE OF THE MOON or BACK IN BLACK in their catalog, even though EXILE ON MAIN STREET starts to have a mythical status now, but which is not ever to be reflected in sales. The Stones are steady sellers, a no risk choice for their record companies (and especially their hit collections are certain sellers). Even back in the day when they were an "albums band", and albums sold generally incredible quantities, it was typical that they made number one spot positions - how many in a row in the US market from 1971 to 1981? - but their albums didn't chart very long. Only SOME GIRLS and TATTOO YOU were what one could say huge sellers, but still those were not any "RUMOURS", and even the "#1 row in USA was not so phenomanal compared to Zeppelin's achievements during the time frame. Compared to many big-name rivals in their heyday - The Beatles, Zep, Pink Floyd - their back catalog hasn't sell so large quantities afterwards.
Some time ago I saw an article in one charting/sales site (can't recall the name any longer), contributing the discussion considering a kind of "surprise" that the Stones have been rather "mediocre" sellers albumwise. It was very insightful, and a kind of argument I made above about The Stones being a "songs band" or "hits band" was also brought in. Also the itunes list was mentioned, showing also that of the old classical acts, The Stones are doing very well. The "real" popularity of the Stones cannot be seen by reflecting their album sales.
But the problem with the Stones album catalog is that it is a rather confusing wholeness, thanks for example, its dualist existence (credits to Klein); the mess concerning 60's prior SATANIC MAJESTIES albums; in the long run, its being rather uneven artistically (lots of obscurities), thanks to their long existence within such a big time frame; and the amount of 'greatest hits' collections, which include the 'needed' songs. And since even the most legendaric albums didn't sell so much in their hey-day, their over-all sales will not be so breath-taking ever, no matter how much they are praised now.
If we leave the obvious Beatles out (who are in the class of their own as sellers), the "problem" the Stones have with such huge acts like Zeppelin and Pink Floyd of their biggest 70's rivals, is that those two really made the art of album a token of its own - Zeppelin not even releasing singles. And that was "their" era. To hear them, you need to have the albums, and the latter became "hits" or "concepts" of their own. By contrast, the Stones became from a culture of hit singles or radio hits, and I think they never really get rid of that "reputation". And to really hit the time nerve, after STICKY FINGERS and EXILE - the latter being their probably strongest album wholeness - they didn't come up with an album that would hit so hard (except SOME GIRLS in the summer of 1978 in America).
Sorry being too cryptic... I don't know if I got my point through, whatever it was.
- Doxa
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2013-08-05 14:40 by Doxa.
Re: Who's your favorite Rolling Stone?
Posted by:
His Majesty
()
Date: August 5, 2013 15:22
Non of the stones music is obscure and kleermaker's perception isn't reflected in the vast and constant activity on Facebook, twitter, many blogs etc etc.
Brian Jones obscure? He's on nearly every ABKCO era album, that music is in millions of people's homes.
The youth of any time is often underestimated, the early years are popular amongst a large enough amount of the young of the world. Anything close to Bieber fever? No, but not much is.
There is a constant flow of young people discovering their music all the time. Once upon a 1989 I was one of them.
The original stones, and all era's, continue to defy the ages. The music is being enjoyed as music by all ages too. The numbers are far too big to class any of this as obscure or not very well known.
Brian Jones obscure? He's on nearly every ABKCO era album, that music is in millions of people's homes.
The youth of any time is often underestimated, the early years are popular amongst a large enough amount of the young of the world. Anything close to Bieber fever? No, but not much is.
There is a constant flow of young people discovering their music all the time. Once upon a 1989 I was one of them.
The original stones, and all era's, continue to defy the ages. The music is being enjoyed as music by all ages too. The numbers are far too big to class any of this as obscure or not very well known.
Re: Who's your favorite Rolling Stone?
Posted by:
nightskyman
()
Date: August 5, 2013 15:45
Quote
DoxaQuote
DandelionPowderman
What baffles me is that Paint It Black is topping the list...
Actually I'm not that surprised. For a reason or other, that song has been aged damn well in the sense that it works well especially to the people who are not that fond of the Stones generally. Something to do with it extraordinary melody line I guess. Among younger people the song still seem to have a suitable "angst" to have eternal appeality... This is my own observation by being eyes open and also making my little pools... Sometime ago someone mentioned around the time of waiting for Glastonbury gog, that they should play it and "Gimme Shelter" there, since those two have a special popularity among young people.
Anyways, may I comment here Kleermaker's claim that fifteensomethings don't know anything of sixties albums. Surely that is true but give us a few years and that age range will not now what the hell an "album" is... but I think the Stones actually do not have a big problem, because, in the end, they are a "hits band" - known mostly for some striking singular songs, and the songs will live forever. Even if those are not played in main radio stations, they will be heard in tv commercials, movie soundtracks, grannie's records, etc. Somehow they just get through, as the history has shown. Too deep in our culture to die off.
But I am with you Dandie that the best indication to see what are the most popular songs is just to check their setlists - they play what people want to hear - to keep the costumers, those we call "casual fans", satisfied. Funnily, "Paint It Black" was ignored by the band for a long time. It took not until the "nostalgic turn" in 1989 to find its place to the setlist, and nowadays it is a "war horse". In France the song has topped the single list twice - in 1966 and 1990 (the last due to some tv series, but that is an early example of how the songs get through these days). In Hyde Park I wittnessed, the response in crowds was without a doubt among the biggest - lots of sing-a-longing and when the song finished people were still singing that melody line. If we leave the obvious "Satisfaction" out, I think only "Sympathy For The Devil" had something similar effect. From the base of footage, The Glastonbury gig, with a really virgin crowd, seemed to go along similar lines.
The sixties will be THE source of the most memorable and time-lasting Stones songs, with just a few additions later. "Satisfaction", "Paint It Black", "Jumpin' Jack Flash", "Sympathy For The Devil", "Honky Tonk Women", "Gimme Shelter", and I guess songs like "The Last Time","Ruby Tuesday", "Let's Spend The Night Together", "Street Fighting Man" and "You Can't Always Get What You Want" don't lurk far...
- Doxa
I think there's been a nostalgic feeling amongst consumers since the early 1970s. This is true with both the Beatles and the Stones (but also LZ, Pink Floyd, Peter Noone, etc.).
Though initially released as a 'best of' collection, the ABCKO produced 'Hot Rocks' turned out to be your classic 'nostalgia' release for the Stones.
I'm sure many who see a Stones concert today the 'nostalgia' factor is even greater, so that for a Stones tour to be truly successful is to perform only the classic singles (with a few favorite album cuts thrown in as we've seen on this last tour).
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-08-05 15:45 by nightskyman.
Re: Who's your favorite Rolling Stone?
Posted by:
Doxa
()
Date: August 5, 2013 15:51
I agree with you, His Majesty - and as a fan I also come from the times when the Stones actually weren't the "latest thing", even though still at the time have a certain aura and atractive mysticism around them, and somehow they looked damn "cool", and it was not just me (1981). But I think those terms like "obscurity", "success", or "popularity" are rather relative notons - compared to what or to whom, and in which context. But with the Stones anything needs to be "greatest", "biggest", etc. so I think we should to keep that in mind. Their albums sales do not quite justify those kind of claims. But many other things will.
I thnk for a time and place defying cultural phenomenon as the Stones, the whole idea of "calculating" success is a mission possible. There are so many factors.
- Doxa
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-08-05 15:56 by Doxa.
I thnk for a time and place defying cultural phenomenon as the Stones, the whole idea of "calculating" success is a mission possible. There are so many factors.
- Doxa
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-08-05 15:56 by Doxa.
Re: Who's your favorite Rolling Stone?
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: August 5, 2013 16:00
For me, it was as simple as this: Nobody sounded like Mick Jagger, Keith Richards, Bill Wyman or Charlie Watts when I discovered the band and TY in 1981.
A few days after hearing TY for the first time, I got Milestones, and discovered a new world with songs like UMT, She's A Rainbow and Satisfaction - songs that showed me even more greatness than the unbeliavably great TY did
A few days after hearing TY for the first time, I got Milestones, and discovered a new world with songs like UMT, She's A Rainbow and Satisfaction - songs that showed me even more greatness than the unbeliavably great TY did
Re: Who's your favorite Rolling Stone?
Posted by:
Come On
()
Date: August 5, 2013 16:04
Quote
DandelionPowderman
For me, it was as simple as this: Nobody sounded like Mick Jagger, Keith Richards, Bill Wyman or Charlie Watts when I discovered the band and TY in 1981.
A few days after hearing TY for the first time, I got Milestones, and discovered a new world with songs like UMT, She's A Rainbow and Satisfaction - songs that showed me even more greatness than the unbeliavably great TY did
Yep, and there he is, The Man Himself: Brian Jones!!!
2 1 2 0
Re: Who's your favorite Rolling Stone?
Posted by:
kwf
()
Date: August 5, 2013 17:03
Quote
svt22Quote
His MajestyQuote
svt22
I do think that people also want to see Ron play, that's 80% of his game. Many Rolling Stones fans are very sensitive for the visual part of the act, I am not. Wood looks and behaves like a genuine rocker, just like Keith, who looked and played like a 100% rocker though. I'm not discussing Wood's an Richards' drug messing up here btw. I'm just of the opinion that a unique band like the Rolling Stones deserved a more talented / musical replacement 2 player -he even affected their overall musical creativity or at least made them sound two dimensional imo, but the Stones certainly didn't need a more technical player. Woods technique was adequate for the job when awake. Anyway, to me replacement 2 made the Rolling Stones a less interesting band to listen to, actually it made me stop listening entirely, although for most Stones fans Ron was the perfect man, so that's just me.
Hmm, I can't recall you or kleerie praising the Jones era as a live band which is where a band really shows how it is right? So I wonder how high you actually rate them as a band during that time.
Their live performances were dog rough cos they were quite amateurish as live musicians. This is part of the charm of the original band of course, very engaing and exciting for me. Going by the availale live recordings from 1963 - 1967 many of the things present in their live performances are mostly things you two, especially kleerie, criticise the Wood era for having.
There's very little actual melody in the guitar department during 1963 - 1967, there are breaks from the onslaught via Lady Jane and in 1967 Ruby Tuesday, but even then it's shakey.
The boy Taylor made a musical man out of the live band perhaps, certainly he enabled them to be able to stand tall with the more guitar wizard orientated bands of that time, but given that the majority of their career has been something very different to that, how authentic does that make the Taylor era?
His talent and influence is undeniable, but his era is more of an anomaly than a definite reading of The Rolling Stones feel and sound. A change in band name really would have been quite fitting.
Comparing Rock & Roll Circus Rolling Stones with Apple rooftop Beatles, they are quite similar in their shaky, slightly amateur sound and feel, both distinctive features of their sound... Someone like Taylor joining either band drastically changes that and IMO makes them in to a different band.
By the time Ronnie joined the song writing had unfortunately took a dive, IMO of course, and he sometimes mistakenly tried to play like replacement 1, but generally speaking the band did return closer to the more amateur feel and sound of the original band.
It still isn't the real thing though.
Jagger and Richards wrote great songs and they came up with a live sound that was never heard before. There were almost no bands at the time that put down a similar groove. I liked it very much, simple as that. They sounded quite amateurish, but like you stated, that was part of their charm. The circumstances they had to function in were more primitive than the Wood era, we have to count that in.
Regarding Brian Jones, he was a founding member, his musical spirit was a part of the Rolling Stones dna, he added something very essential, just like Taylor became a part of the Stones dna and added something essential. I think Jones was a great slide and harp player, the guy digged rhythm and blues, he definitely was a very talented and creative member, but he limited himself. He could have grown as a musician, just a pity he got wasted at a very young age, a victim of his own succes.
I disagree that the band with Taylor was just an anomaly. Mick played with the Stones for only 5 years, but the Taylor era spirit still lives on in the hearts of most Stones fans, count me in. It's just that he isn't a member anymore. Wait a minute.... the recent tour proved his influence again.
So Jones and replacement 1 added something fundamental while replacement 2... No doubt he joined with the best intentions. I posted about him this morning. The show must go on after '74. Let's leave it at that..
When Mick Taylor plays guitar, the sound of The Rolling Stones comes out of it...it was right there from the first note of the first Rambler at the first London show. There's no going back now....
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2013-08-05 17:07 by kwf.
Re: Who's your favorite Rolling Stone?
Posted by:
His Majesty
()
Date: August 5, 2013 17:10
Quote
Doxa
I agree with you, His Majesty - and as a fan I also come from the times when the Stones actually weren't the "latest thing", even though still at the time have a certain aura and atractive mysticism around them, and somehow they looked damn "cool", and it was not just me (1981). But I think those terms like "obscurity", "success", or "popularity" are rather relative notons - compared to what or to whom, and in which context. But with the Stones anything needs to be "greatest", "biggest", etc. so I think we should to keep that in mind. Their albums sales do not quite justify those kind of claims. But many other things will.
I thnk for a time and place defying cultural phenomenon as the Stones, the whole idea of "calculating" success is a mission possible. There are so many factors.
- Doxa
It's really quite simple, the vast amount of online activity about the early stones shows they are still very much a popular thing amongst people of all ages and backgrounds. Even those much derided 15 year olds.
14 plus million likes on facebook, even if only a small percentage of those likes and know about Brian Jones or the early albums (how could they not when there are posts about them on the very page they liked) it would still be a substantial number of people.
Their music continues to endure, engage and inspire. You and I and many like us are solid living proof of this.
Re: Who's your favorite Rolling Stone?
Posted by:
His Majesty
()
Date: August 5, 2013 17:12
Quote
kwf
When Mick Taylor plays guitar, the sound of The Rolling Stones comes out of it...
Nonsense.
Re: Who's your favorite Rolling Stone?
Posted by:
kleermaker
()
Date: August 5, 2013 17:28
Quote
nightskymanQuote
DoxaQuote
DandelionPowderman
What baffles me is that Paint It Black is topping the list...
Actually I'm not that surprised. For a reason or other, that song has been aged damn well in the sense that it works well especially to the people who are not that fond of the Stones generally. Something to do with it extraordinary melody line I guess. Among younger people the song still seem to have a suitable "angst" to have eternal appeality... This is my own observation by being eyes open and also making my little pools... Sometime ago someone mentioned around the time of waiting for Glastonbury gog, that they should play it and "Gimme Shelter" there, since those two have a special popularity among young people.
Anyways, may I comment here Kleermaker's claim that fifteensomethings don't know anything of sixties albums. Surely that is true but give us a few years and that age range will not now what the hell an "album" is... but I think the Stones actually do not have a big problem, because, in the end, they are a "hits band" - known mostly for some striking singular songs, and the songs will live forever. Even if those are not played in main radio stations, they will be heard in tv commercials, movie soundtracks, grannie's records, etc. Somehow they just get through, as the history has shown. Too deep in our culture to die off.
But I am with you Dandie that the best indication to see what are the most popular songs is just to check their setlists - they play what people want to hear - to keep the costumers, those we call "casual fans", satisfied. Funnily, "Paint It Black" was ignored by the band for a long time. It took not until the "nostalgic turn" in 1989 to find its place to the setlist, and nowadays it is a "war horse". In France the song has topped the single list twice - in 1966 and 1990 (the last due to some tv series, but that is an early example of how the songs get through these days). In Hyde Park I wittnessed, the response in crowds was without a doubt among the biggest - lots of sing-a-longing and when the song finished people were still singing that melody line. If we leave the obvious "Satisfaction" out, I think only "Sympathy For The Devil" had something similar effect. From the base of footage, The Glastonbury gig, with a really virgin crowd, seemed to go along similar lines.
The sixties will be THE source of the most memorable and time-lasting Stones songs, with just a few additions later. "Satisfaction", "Paint It Black", "Jumpin' Jack Flash", "Sympathy For The Devil", "Honky Tonk Women", "Gimme Shelter", and I guess songs like "The Last Time","Ruby Tuesday", "Let's Spend The Night Together", "Street Fighting Man" and "You Can't Always Get What You Want" don't lurk far...
- Doxa
I think there's been a nostalgic feeling amongst consumers since the early 1970s. This is true with both the Beatles and the Stones (but also LZ, Pink Floyd, Peter Noone, etc.).
Though initially released as a 'best of' collection, the ABCKO produced 'Hot Rocks' turned out to be your classic 'nostalgia' release for the Stones.
I'm sure many who see a Stones concert today the 'nostalgia' factor is even greater, so that for a Stones tour to be truly successful is to perform only the classic singles (with a few favorite album cuts thrown in as we've seen on this last tour).
I agree with you nightskyman. But there are still quite some romantics here, who think their own musical discovery journey is exemplaric. The Stones music will never survive the way Mozart's, Bach's etc will imo. That music is still being played every minute of the day all around the world. But about hundred years later it's only the Beatles I guess who will be remembered as a symbol of the famous sixties of the 20th century. And maybe, maybe, the Stones will be mentioned as the eternal number two band
. But who cares, we love their music, and even we differ very much in what we like and dislike.Speaking of statistics: I've taken a look at my own YT-statistics, which is interesting. Here you go (it's mainly live songs from the Taylor-era of course, but that makes no difference and will confirm Doxa's thesis that the Stones are most of all a hit single band (and 'brand' as I say, with a big nostalgia-factor):
- number of views: 1,6 million (seems representative to me)
- age of viewers US (other countries likewise): 13–17: 0,8%; 18–24: 0,8%; 25–34: 2%; 35–44: 10,1%; 45–54: 48,7%; 55–64 jaar: 36%'; older than 65: 1,6%
- gender of viewers: male 85%, female 15%
- most viewed in: US (more than one third of the total number of views), UK, France, Germany, Japan.
- most viewed songs (total = about 160): 1) Plundered My Soul (especially because of the footage I guess and because it was some kind of hit single): 114.000; 2) Mick Taylor Sway Solo II: 109.000; 3) Best songs of the 1973 Tour: 80.000 (runner up); 4) Ventilator Blues: 77.000; 5) YCAGWYW live 1973 (with the longest Taylor live solo ever): 70.000; 6) Sweet Black Angel/Loving Cup live 1972: 59.000; 7) Winter Deluxe (Winter studio plus Taylor's own studio Winter solo combined): 53.000; 8) Torn and Frayed live 1972: 48.000; 9) Can't You Hear Me Knocking Glastonbury 2013: 41.000 (runner up); 10) Mick Taylor Sway Solo I: 39.000.
My conclusion: the Stones' fans are mainly men (85%), age between 45-64 (85%) and mostly from the western countries (US and Europe).
Re: Who's your favorite Rolling Stone?
Posted by:
Wroclaw
()
Date: August 5, 2013 17:39
1
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-08-06 09:55 by Wroclaw.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-08-06 09:55 by Wroclaw.
Re: Who's your favorite Rolling Stone?
Posted by:
His Majesty
()
Date: August 5, 2013 17:55
Quote
kleermaker
it's mainly live songs from the Taylor-era of course, but that makes no difference
Of course it makes a difference.
All Taylor and all bootlegs.
Re: Who's your favorite Rolling Stone?
Posted by:
nightskyman
()
Date: August 5, 2013 18:33
My conclusion: the Stones' fans are mainly men (85%), age between 45-64 (85%) and mostly from the western countries (US and Europe).[/quote]
Probably true about the Beatles 100 years from now, sadly. I've never been to Stones concert, but I imagine the percentages above are likely correct.
Probably true about the Beatles 100 years from now, sadly. I've never been to Stones concert, but I imagine the percentages above are likely correct.
Re: Who's your favorite Rolling Stone?
Posted by:
kleermaker
()
Date: August 5, 2013 18:36
Quote
His MajestyQuote
kleermaker
it's mainly live songs from the Taylor-era of course, but that makes no difference
Of course it makes a difference.
All Taylor and all bootlegs.
I knew you would say that, but many replies are from non-Taylorians, and many of those songs are just (not true) Rolling Stones songs. Anyway, if it is for Taylor only then so many views is just remarkable. But I bet it's the same with all other Stones-relates YT-channel statistics.
Re: Who's your favorite Rolling Stone?
Posted by:
Big Al
()
Date: August 5, 2013 18:56
The average attendee at a Rolling Stones concert is a fifty-sixty something, white middle-class male with a balding head and paunch. They go to hear (I Can't Get No) Satisfaction, Honky Tonk Woman and Brown Sugar and own copies of 40 Licks and Grrr!
Re: Who's your favorite Rolling Stone?
Posted by:
His Majesty
()
Date: August 5, 2013 18:59
Quote
kleermakerQuote
His MajestyQuote
kleermaker
it's mainly live songs from the Taylor-era of course, but that makes no difference
Of course it makes a difference.
All Taylor and all bootlegs.
I knew you would say that, but many replies are from non-Taylorians, and many of those songs are just (not true) Rolling Stones songs. Anyway, if it is for Taylor only then so many views is just remarkable. But I bet it's the same with all other Stones-relates YT-channel statistics.
I have my own jones focused channel(all bootleg material) but it's more of an uploading source for the facebook page, both of which are still quite new.
A mere 16,074 views.
Currently sits at 25.9 % female views.Also, going by your numbers and the many blogs, facebook pages etc, Jones seems to attract a larger adult and teenage female audience than Taylor.
Quite odd given his history with women, but not so odd given his more pop star image etc.
14 million plus likes on stones own facebook page is something to be reckoned with though. That's 14 million potential people who are aware and like all era's of the stones and there's quite a number of young people posting on it.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2013-08-05 20:34 by His Majesty.
Re: Who's your favorite Rolling Stone?
Posted by:
Big Al
()
Date: August 5, 2013 19:05
Quote
His Majesty
Also, going by your numbers and the many blogs, facebook pages etc, Jones seems to attract a larger adult and teenage female audience than Taylor.
Quite odd given his history with women, but not so odd given his more pop star image etc.
I'm not surprised. It seems to me that any new convert to the Rolling Stones is primarily geared towards the Brian-era. It is, after all, the period of Satisfaction, Paint It, Black, and Jumpin' Jack Flash.
Re: Who's your favorite Rolling Stone?
Posted by:
BJPortugal
()
Date: August 5, 2013 19:09
BTW... to the discussion... LastFM(mostly frequented by young people) statistics about the Stones:
Top plays last week
1
Gimme Shelter
7,079
2
Paint It Black
6,526
3
Sympathy for the Devil
6,312
4
(I Can't Get No) Satisfaction
5,875
5
Under My Thumb
3,978
6
You Can't Always Get What You Want
3,866
7
Start Me Up
3,675
8
Angie
3,613
9
Brown Sugar
3,361
10
Wild Horses
3,262
11
Jumpin' Jack Flash
2,924
12
Miss You
2,860
13
Beast of Burden
2,491
14
Ruby Tuesday
2,331
15
Tumbling Dice
Last 6 months:
1
Gimme Shelter
91,996
2
Sympathy for the Devil
89,563
3
Under My Thumb
61,458
4
Paint It Black
59,915
5
Angie
55,088
6
You Can't Always Get What You Want
54,528
7
Start Me Up
53,664
8
Wild Horses
53,096
9
Brown Sugar
51,439
10
(I Can't Get No) Satisfaction
49,630
11
Jumpin' Jack Flash
41,712
12
Miss You
40,840
13
Beast of Burden
39,025
14
Street Fighting Man
35,400
15
Tumbling Dice
35,032
The Rolling Stones are in 26# of Top Artists listening.(of last week)
PS: Mostly popular pics are from Brian Jones era.
Top plays last week
1
Gimme Shelter
7,079
2
Paint It Black
6,526
3
Sympathy for the Devil
6,312
4
(I Can't Get No) Satisfaction
5,875
5
Under My Thumb
3,978
6
You Can't Always Get What You Want
3,866
7
Start Me Up
3,675
8
Angie
3,613
9
Brown Sugar
3,361
10
Wild Horses
3,262
11
Jumpin' Jack Flash
2,924
12
Miss You
2,860
13
Beast of Burden
2,491
14
Ruby Tuesday
2,331
15
Tumbling Dice
Last 6 months:
1
Gimme Shelter
91,996
2
Sympathy for the Devil
89,563
3
Under My Thumb
61,458
4
Paint It Black
59,915
5
Angie
55,088
6
You Can't Always Get What You Want
54,528
7
Start Me Up
53,664
8
Wild Horses
53,096
9
Brown Sugar
51,439
10
(I Can't Get No) Satisfaction
49,630
11
Jumpin' Jack Flash
41,712
12
Miss You
40,840
13
Beast of Burden
39,025
14
Street Fighting Man
35,400
15
Tumbling Dice
35,032
The Rolling Stones are in 26# of Top Artists listening.(of last week)
PS: Mostly popular pics are from Brian Jones era.
Re: Who's your favorite Rolling Stone?
Posted by:
kleermaker
()
Date: August 5, 2013 19:49
Quote
His MajestyQuote
kleermakerQuote
His MajestyQuote
kleermaker
it's mainly live songs from the Taylor-era of course, but that makes no difference
Of course it makes a difference.
All Taylor and all bootlegs.
I knew you would say that, but many replies are from non-Taylorians, and many of those songs are just (not true) Rolling Stones songs. Anyway, if it is for Taylor only then so many views is just remarkable. But I bet it's the same with all other Stones-relates YT-channel statistics.
I have my own jones focused channel(all bootleg material) but it's more of an uploading source for the facebook page, both of which are still quite new.
A mere 4,133 views.
Also, going by your numbers and the many blogs, facebook pages etc, Jones seems to attract a larger adult and teenage female audience than Taylor.
Quite odd given his history with women, but not so odd given his more pop star image etc.
14 million plus likes on stones own facebook page is something to be reckoned with though. That's 14 million potential people who are aware and like all era's of the stones and there's quite a number of young people posting on it.
My YT-channel is in the first place a Rolling Stones-channel and not a Taylor-channel. So you can't compare it to your specific B. Jones-channel in that way at all. I bet the percentage of men viewers will rise, even though the percentage of about 75% male is also quite high. But like you said Jones was in the first place a popstar to the (female) public. His history with women doesn't say other women anything. But maybe that's something you'll find out when when you grow older yourself
.Re: Who's your favorite Rolling Stone?
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: August 5, 2013 19:50
Quote
WroclawQuote
kleermakerQuote
nightskymanQuote
DoxaQuote
DandelionPowderman
But about hundred years later it's only the Beatles I guess who will be remembered as a symbol of the famous sixties of the 20th century. And maybe, maybe, the Stones will be mentioned as the eternal number two band
.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-08-06 10:46 by DandelionPowderman.
Re: Who's your favorite Rolling Stone?
Posted by:
His Majesty
()
Date: August 5, 2013 19:59
Quote
kleermaker
My YT-channel is in the first place a Rolling Stones-channel and not a Taylor-channel. So you can't compare it to your specific B. Jones-channel in that way at all. I bet the percentage of men viewers will rise, even though the percentage of about 75% male is also quite high. But like you said Jones was in the first place a popstar to the (female) public. His history with women doesn't say other women anything. But maybe that's something you'll find out when when you grow older yourself
For a self titled, supposedly intelligent person you don't half post a lot of stupid things.
They are much the same, a mostly Rolling Stones music channel focusing on for me Jones and for you Taylor. To say otherwise is to talk bollocks.
These females very much appreciate the music as well, or is appreciating music the exclusive domain of aging, receding hairline men with pretensions about superior intellegence and taste?
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2013-08-05 20:02 by His Majesty.
Re: Who's your favorite Rolling Stone?
Posted by:
Wroclaw
()
Date: August 5, 2013 20:01
[1
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-08-06 09:56 by Wroclaw.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-08-06 09:56 by Wroclaw.
Re: Who's your favorite Rolling Stone?
Posted by:
kleermaker
()
Date: August 5, 2013 20:05
Quote
His MajestyQuote
kleermaker
My YT-channel is in the first place a Rolling Stones-channel and not a Taylor-channel. So you can't compare it to your specific B. Jones-channel in that way at all. I bet the percentage of men viewers will rise, even though the percentage of about 75% male is also quite high. But like you said Jones was in the first place a popstar to the (female) public. His history with women doesn't say other women anything. But maybe that's something you'll find out when when you grow older yourself
For a self titled, supposedly intelligent person you don't half post a lot of stupid things.
They are much the same, a mostly Rolling Stones music channel focusing on for me Jones and for you Taylor. To say otherwise is to talk bollocks.
These females very much appreciate the music as well, or is appreciating music mostly the domain of aging, receding hairline men with pretensions about superior intellegence and taste?
That last sentence says enough to me. You're trying to put words in my mouth that I never spoke, would speak or will ever speak. Besides I've had it with the ongoing ranting. So I end discussing with you. In another thread I already wrote that it's useless.
"The Brian Jones experience", seems to focus on Brian Jones in the first place. Which of course is allowed.
Re: Who's your favorite Rolling Stone?
Posted by:
His Majesty
()
Date: August 5, 2013 20:08
Quote
kleermaker
"The Brian Jones experience", seems to focus on Brian Jones in the first place. Which of course is allowed.
I don't hide the main focus of the page, but I was pondering changing it to The Rolling Stones Experience or some similar cheesy name because I have too much good stuff about them all to keep it focused on him.
On the facebook page I do post about others things, like where associated friends etc lived and so on.
The title of your youtube channel nor your name here hides what your main focus is either.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2013-08-05 20:17 by His Majesty.
Re: Who's your favorite Rolling Stone?
Posted by:
Doxa
()
Date: August 5, 2013 20:47
-
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-08-06 10:35 by Doxa.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-08-06 10:35 by Doxa.
Re: Who's your favorite Rolling Stone?
Posted by:
Doxa
()
Date: August 5, 2013 20:49
-
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-08-06 10:36 by Doxa.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-08-06 10:36 by Doxa.
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