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DandelionPowderman

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keefriffhard4life

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GravityBoy

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keefriffhard4life
Really? seems to me a lot of pictures and videos i see of bill he is using fingers.

Bill used a pick extensively with the Stones.. he's on record saying it somewhere.

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also not sure why you said "My two favourite bass players ever don't follow those rules - thank goodness.". not ever sure what that means. thank goodness why?

Because they didn't need no stinkin' rules.

James Jamerson... genius.

Google "the hook".

ok. watch out al capone, bill wyman uses a pick.

Or his thumb...

yeah i actually always thought he used fingers

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keefriffhard4life
funny enough that mccartney bass looks like a smaller version of a stand up bass.

I think the reason for this is because they were in Germany at the time when Paul was presented with the decision to switch to bass, and Hofner made a bass specifically for a left-handed player, and I believe left-handed basses were hard to find in those days. Add to that the fact that the Hofner bass has an especially thin neck and is made to be played with relatively light-gauge strings, so if you are making the transition from being a guitarist to a bass player, the Hofner bass has more guitar-like dimensions, whereas most bass guitars have wide fretboards, fatter necks, and are made to be played with especially thick strings--hence if you play with a pick you'll get a twangy sound rather than a 'bassy' sound.


Note the slim, almost guitar-like strings of the Hofner 'Beatle' bass....


...whereas the strings used for the Fender Jazz bass are super fat by comparison.


Note again the sleek guitar-like neck of the Hofner bass....


....and for comparison the thickness of the Danelectro model that Entwistle started out on.



It should be noted that McCartney did not always play the Hofner. He was playing a Rickenbacker bass during the later Beatles years (featured in the Hello Goodbye video), and also during his Wings Over America days.


Filming the promo for Hello Goodbye, 1967. Paul's Rickenbacker bass, a gift from John Hall, son of the head of Rickenbacker F.C. Hall in 1965, was first used on a Beatles recording in 1965 on Rubber Soul on George Harrison's Think For Yourself and became Paul's bass of choice by 1966.


Early shot of Paul with his Rickenbacker bass.


Paul with the Rickenbacker bass and sporting the psychedelic paint job he kept in 1967 until the end of 1968. Paul would return to the Hofner for the Get Back sessions, but Abbey Road was recorded with the Rickenbacker.

Full details on Macca's guitars at: [www.steveisler.com]


Wings Over America era circa 1975-1976.

great post
he's back to the hofner or a model like it now i believe?

my understanding was it was the left handed model that drove the selection of the guitar originally.

Small scale bass is great to play.

I've had a Hofner in the past, now have a Fender Mustang (like Bill's).

Bill picking in the studio.



Fender Mustang.

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sonomastone
great post
he's back to the hofner or a model like it now i believe?

my understanding was it was the left handed model that drove the selection of the guitar originally.

I believe it's the Hofner, with the original set list for the rooftop concert from Get Back 1969 still encased in plastic and taped to the back--kind of a good luck charm I suppose.

He actually has two Hofner basses (the 500/1 violin bass): the original 1961 model he first bought when switching from guitar to bass, then a 1962 model the Hofner company gave him, which he began using in 1963. He used the 1961 model as a backup, and plays that in the Revolution promo clip. Today, he uses the 1962 model. The 1961 model was stolen from Abbey Road studios during the recording of Let It Be, so he completed the recording of that album--including the rooftop concert--with the 1962 model, the one he plays currently.

Here's a wiki page on the Hofner bass: [en.wikipedia.org]

And check out this Link Wray clip of a club show in London from 1996. It's a trio, and the bassist (Eric Danno) is playing a right-handed Hofner.

I say Bill. Vastly underrated.

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GravityBoy
Bill picking in the studio.



Fender Mustang.

The Fender Mustang is an especially apt bass guitar for Bill because of its lean neck. Bill has always said that he has been hesitant to get up onstage and just jam when invited at a club or whatever unless he has his own personalized bass along, because he says he has small hands that are difficult to properly grip the neck of the average bass guitar.

Entwistle or McCartney. Each was the better bassist for their respective band. Man when I listen to Abbey Road (the clip someone posted earlier) I can't help but wish the Beatles could have stayed together longer.

Two of Paul's best bass parts (there are many to choose from) are on Abbey Road.

Something and Come Together... neither song was his own.

"Something" doesn't even get a mention in the McCartney Top 12 list here:

[www.musicradar.com]

And yet it's superb.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-07-02 12:39 by GravityBoy.

The beauty and majesty of that bass part is captured in this great cover/lesson video.

I'd have to say McCartney but it's close. Paul was (is) very underrated. Really became more appearant on the last reissues. My personal favorite is Flea. That guy can play anything. John Sirratt from Wilco is very good too.

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71Tele

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Thrylan
Wow, wish I could type fast enough to be in that! Hmmm, a lot of good arguments in every direction.

In a related note, I was never overly impressed with Ringo. Then, the other day I Feel Fine came on the radio, and damn! Ringo is playing his ass off. Really caught my ear.

Ringo was awesome. Again, technique didn't matter. he was a left-handed drummer who played a right-handed kit. This led to some of his idosyncratic fills. He was also laid back enough to hang back for hours and hours while the songwriters worked out their ideas. Would some pyrotechnic double-bass drummer been better for The Beatles? Absolutely not! The best technique does not always lead to the most soulful music. In fact, it usually doesn't.

Hey, I´m a lefthanded drummer too playing a right haneed drumkit - but also for the reason I´m not left-footed!

As far as I know Ringo plays the HiHat with his right hand, hands crossing what I as a left handed don´t do...

They are so different. Can't choose. Yet, Jimi Hendrix, known for his wild style, asked McCartney to play bass for him in a project with Miles Davis (the project never came to anything). I would have thought Entwistle was more obvious for Hendrix.

Entwistle had much better technique. But that doesn't mean that was "better" than McCartney. Musical skills are often compared to sport atletics. Nothing could be more wrong. We all know that The Stones are very bad technical players, yet they play with more passion than most others, and that is what counts IMO.

Ginger Baker's nice words to Charlie are probably connected to the fact that they sprung out of the same clubs and both were jazz fans. By the way, I would prefer Ringo anyday over Ginger when it comes to play straight rock songs. Ginger is a wild man, but again people seems to fall on their a** because of his technique.

And regarding the pick playing on bass: there are always fanatic players who swear to only use fingers. I'm a bass player myself. I mostly use fingers, but a pick can give more attack than your fingers, so it's good for the effect you want to give.

Entwistle used a pick on the entire Live At Leeds album! There is nothing wrong with that.

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keefriffhard4life

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71Tele
Paul is the best bassist, if you consider what a bassist properly does. I love The Who, but unfortunately the Ox got a bad case of Lead Guitar Syndrome in his later years. Not sure why anyone would think playing lead on a bass with a super distorted sound would make anyone a better bassist, but I'm sure he was better at whatever it is he did.

His work through Who By Numbers was brilliant. I think Pete mentioned that he got so loud onstage that he couldn't compete with him. When I go to see The Who now I feel guilty because I much prefer Pino Paladino's playing.

for starters paul mccartney strums the bass with a pick most of the time while the ox can show you every known style of playing a bass there is. ever see mccartney finger tap or pluck with all 5 fingers or slap bass?

That is not correct. Macca does not strum the bass. Listen to the I Want You clip, better yet, get yourself a copy of Rock Show and watch the man. As Tele so well stated, the Ox was great, but Macca beats with style, technique, melody and versatility. But also, this all comes down to personal taste, as it often does, so you may be a bit biased towards Entwistle. I love them both, but also can hear where Macca has the edge on The Ox.

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keefriffhard4life

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GravityBoy

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keefriffhard4life
i think my point was that mccartney pretty much only strums the bass with a pick because he is a guitar player who switched to bass. most bass players tell you using a pick on a bass for 90% of the time is sacrilege (sp?).

Pick playing is a perfectly valid technique.

Next you'll be be saying that you need to play bass with more than one finger.

(Bass player lovers will know where I'm going with that one).

its valid but but most bass players do not use a pick. its funny that literally the only bass players i can think of right now who seem to always use a pick other than mccartney are gene simmons and the bassist from poison. top of the class right there

Well not too sure about that. I have played in several bands and every bass player I played with used a pick. And not to STRUM, but to hit individual strings. But again, the use of a pick or not does not signal which player is better. As Tele AGAIN so well stated it is the style and technique, not the speed and special effects.

Most bass players play with, and without, a pick. It depends on the amount of attack you want.

Slapping, tapping or virtuosity in general have nothing to do with the bass players function in a band.

Listen to Stanley Clarke with the New Barbarians. It clashes quite often with the groove, both rhythm-wise and frequency-wise.

The most important thing in music is rhythm. If you lose that, you're doomed. Too many bass players lose the groove by playing too much or in the wrong places, imo.

They're both awesome players and I've stolen/learned much from both of them over the years. If I could get the technique & ability of Entwistle combined with the taste & sensibility of McCartney, I'd hire the person in an instant. Heck, as a bass player myself, that combination is much of what I strive for today. Trying to pick between either of the two for anything other than a Who or Beatle cover band, I'd probably lean to McCartney simply for his ability to be a "band member" first as opposed to a "bass player" first.

Lead bass players are great in the right situation. However, as DP said above, "Too many bass players lose the groove by playing too much or in the wrong places, imo." In my opinion, the groove is everything and is not only dependent on WHAT you play, but WHAT you don't play as well. So many players are so concerned about the notes, that they forget about the rests and the silence between the notes. Find a bass player that plays the silence as well as they play the notes and you'll be laying on a huge bed of groove. Bill Wyman was and is a great example of this. For that matter, I'd be willing to bet that Keith & probably Ronnie understood that concept as well. Silence, space, whatever you want to call it, can do more to change the feel, swing, groove of a song, than the actual notes do much of the time.

Side note to Tele: I'm in the same awkward position as you when I find myself preferring Pino to the Ox.

Peace,
Mr DJA

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stonehearted
In fact, most bass players back then played bass like guitar players, because that's how bass was looked upon in the 50s and early 60s. The job of bass always went to the band's weakest guitar player.

Which is why Bill Wyman turned out to be such an excellent bass player. He picked up the bass because he liked the sound of it, not because he was forced to by others.

The idea that there's something inferior about bassists using a pick is ridiculous. It's simply a stylistic choice. Wyman played with and without a pick, so did McCartney. Again, a bass player developing lead guitar-type skills does not necessarily make him or her a better bass player. Would we really have wanted Bill Wyman to slap and play fast runs on Stones tracks? Of course not. A bassist is an accompaniest who - apart from the very ocassional solo - is a support player. That in no way diminished the role, it's just that bassists who want to be lead guitar players are normally not very good in bands. I maintain that The Who's live sound suffered in Entwistle's later years. I saw a number of those shows, and they almost needed an additional bassist on stage to make up for the sonic territory the Ox abandoned with his trebly distorted "lead bass" playing. The "bass" just wasn't there. Ironically with Pino Palladino, they have gone back to sounding like what The Who used to sound like when Entwistle really played bass.

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keefriffhard4life

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GravityBoy

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keefriffhard4life
i think my point was that mccartney pretty much only strums the bass with a pick because he is a guitar player who switched to bass. most bass players tell you using a pick on a bass for 90% of the time is sacrilege (sp?).

Pick playing is a perfectly valid technique.

Next you'll be be saying that you need to play bass with more than one finger.

(Bass player lovers will know where I'm going with that one).

its valid but but most bass players do not use a pick. its funny that literally the only bass players i can think of right now who seem to always use a pick other than mccartney are gene simmons and the bassist from poison. top of the class right there

Who cares whether most use a pick or not? Why is what most bass players do a measurement of anything? Most bass players are not Paul McCartney.

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mr_dja
They're both awesome players and I've stolen/learned much from both of them over the years. If I could get the technique & ability of Entwistle combined with the taste & sensibility of McCartney, I'd hire the person in an instant. Heck, as a bass player myself, that combination is much of what I strive for today. Trying to pick between either of the two for anything other than a Who or Beatle cover band, I'd probably lean to McCartney simply for his ability to be a "band member" first as opposed to a "bass player" first.

Lead bass players are great in the right situation. However, as DP said above, "Too many bass players lose the groove by playing too much or in the wrong places, imo." In my opinion, the groove is everything and is not only dependent on WHAT you play, but WHAT you don't play as well. So many players are so concerned about the notes, that they forget about the rests and the silence between the notes. Find a bass player that plays the silence as well as they play the notes and you'll be laying on a huge bed of groove. Bill Wyman was and is a great example of this. For that matter, I'd be willing to bet that Keith & probably Ronnie understood that concept as well. Silence, space, whatever you want to call it, can do more to change the feel, swing, groove of a song, than the actual notes do much of the time.

Side note to Tele: I'm in the same awkward position as you when I find myself preferring Pino to the Ox.

Peace,
Mr DJA

Great points, DJA...

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batcave
I remember reading an interview with Entwistle where he said he could never figure out how McCartney could play all those melodic bass lines while singing at the same time.

That's the greater of two talents.

It's subjective, of course. What makes one 'better' than the other? They're both outstanding. McCartney was better at doing what he did than Entwistle. And vice versa.

So there's really no 'one is better than the other'. Someone may like one over the other but that's taste, not talent. At least in this term you can't simply go on talent, otherwise explain Yanni's success.

Is Keith Richards a great guitar player? Sure he is (I know it's was but overall). He's great at being Keith Richards too... Are there better guitar players than Keith? Sure.

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stonehearted
In the recent Ginger Baker bio-doc, Beware of Mr Baker, Baker had this to say about technique: "Bonham had technique, but he couldn't swing a sack of shit! Or Moonie for that matter."

Bit of a shame that...I thought Jack Bruce was the big-headed prick in Cream, but Ginger gives him a run for his money. No wonder EC had to get out of that ego battle. I suspect what he's getting at is that rock drummers are not real drummers like jazz players. Note: Cream are one of the greatest bands ever IMO.

As for the Ox vs. Macca...certainly John was a better player...but Macca wrote some of the best bass lines in pop music, especially in the Beatles era. I don't think it really matters that much anyway. I sure would have liked to see Pastorius in his prime, but would probably been bored stiff after 15 minutes of bass solo.

Lee

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lmatth8461

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stonehearted
In the recent Ginger Baker bio-doc, Beware of Mr Baker, Baker had this to say about technique: "Bonham had technique, but he couldn't swing a sack of shit! Or Moonie for that matter."

Bit of a shame that...I thought Jack Bruce was the big-headed prick in Cream, but Ginger gives him a run for his money. No wonder EC had to get out of that ego battle. I suspect what he's getting at is that rock drummers are not real drummers like jazz players. Note: Cream are one of the greatest bands ever IMO.

As for the Ox vs. Macca...certainly John was a better player...but Macca wrote some of the best bass lines in pop music, especially in the Beatles era. I don't think it really matters that much anyway. I sure would have liked to see Pastorius in his prime, but would probably been bored stiff after 15 minutes of bass solo.

Lee

But some of us include the ability to create great bass parts in our definition of what makes a "better player". Entwistle may have been more technically proficient. I don't mean to split hairs here, but that's different from being a better player.

I never considered auntie paula a great bass player. Great songwriter yes, but bass player....

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andrea66
I never considered auntie paula a great bass player. Great songwriter yes, but bass player....

Well he is.

Sorry.

John Entwistle was a bass virtuoso. One of a kind. The Jimi Hendrix of the four strings. He create a new technique, and a particular sound. You just can't imagine something like him before or after him. And you can't call him "bass guitarrist", and the reason is that The Who is not a tipical band. Keith Moon was not "drums drummer" too.
Paul is one of the most creative musicians ever, singer, composer and bass player. But you can hear the Beach Boys' bass lines and his influence on Paul. He was amazing with the groove on the early Beatles, and so lyrical in the late ones. But Boris the Spider on 1966 is so far from his real time. And you have alrerady heard Paul in "Beach Boys today", to name one recording.

Conclusion: John Entwistle.

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"I'm gonna walk... before they make me run"

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