they are one of the only big name artists from the 60's/70's who don't have an official BBC release. yes i have most of their stuff on bootleg but i want an official release. the beatles, cream, the kinks, hendrix, deep purple, T REX and the who all have releases although most of them are missing lots of songs.

File that request under ABKCO, in the Missed Opportunities file.

The Stones are also the only artist among the names you list that don't have some kind of deluxe edition or outtakes officially released from their 60s catalog.

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stonehearted
File that request under ABKCO, in the Missed Opportunities file.

The Stones are also the only artist among the names you list that don't have some kind of deluxe edition or outtakes officially released from their 60s catalog.

ABKCO owns the bbc stuff? i thought the bbc owns all of the live performances by any band to appear on the bbc and then they license them to a record label.

anyways yes the stones have nothing done with the 60's catalog as far as outtakes other than what was done in the 60's like FLOWER and then metamorphisis in the 70's. funny bands like the who, the doors and jefferson airplane had these great boxsets in the 90's with rare/unreleased stuff even though over the years through live albums and expanded/deluxe album reissues these boxsets have been made close to obsolete and the kinks released a boxset in 2008 that even then was pretty much obsolete but the stones get nothing

Well, you might be right about the BBC's ownership, but I wouldn't be surprised if Allen Klein would lay claim to those performances in some way, since according to his terms he claimed ownership over everything they produced within a certain time frame pre-1971, and since those BBC performances were recorded during "the Allen Klein era", it would stand to reason that ABKCO would be the de facto label that would get the licensing. Just my guess.

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stonehearted
Well, you might be right about the BBC's ownership, but I wouldn't be surprised if Allen Klein would lay claim to those performances in some way, since according to his terms he claimed ownership over everything they produced within a certain time frame pre-1971, and since those BBC performances were recorded during "the Allen Klein era", it would stand to reason that ABKCO would be the de facto label that would get the licensing. Just my guess.

who knows with the bbc stuff. i always thought the only live stuff a record company owns is what was released or turned in for release during the bands contract. i know its a different band but for instance the grateful deads pre 1974 original releases are still licensed through warned bros. records but any live material they have released recorded before 1974 has been released through the bands current label, arista in the 90's/early 2000's and now rhino.

Allen Klein's takeover was quite complete. I believe in the Stones in Exile documentary Mick Jagger describes it as Klein claiming that he "owned everything we ever recorded or ever would record into perpetuity", so the legal action they took meant that a cut-off of 1971 would be agreed upon. Whether covers or originals, it did not matter--if it was recorded before 1971, it would be owned by ABKCO. Including concert tapes.

And note also that The Stones have not in recent years released on CD any live albums from before Ya-Yas. For instance, the Live in Hawaii July 1966 is a widely prized bootleg, as are the shows from the European tour of 1967. They could have released other things as well, like their UK tour of 1970 and their Marquee Club set from early '71.

The reason they haven't done this is because anything they recorded--live or studio--is claimed by Klein and ABKCO and such live releases would not be allowed under any current label regardless of whether they had not been intended for release at the time, if it fell within the bounds of "the Allen Klein era".

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stonehearted
Well, you might be right about the BBC's ownership, but I wouldn't be surprised if Allen Klein would lay claim to those performances in some way, since according to his terms he claimed ownership over everything they produced within a certain time frame pre-1971, and since those BBC performances were recorded during "the Allen Klein era", it would stand to reason that ABKCO would be the de facto label that would get the licensing. Just my guess.

And that's exactly how it is. Pre-1971, the Stones are EXCLUSIVE "ABKCO recording artists", so whatever they recorded in that time frame (studio, live, radio broadcasts) can't be released without ABKCO's agreement. The BBC recordings themselves are legally "owned" by the BBC, but the BBC can't release them commercially without ABKCO's and, of course, the Stones agreement. In fact, for a BBC recordings release, three parties need to work together: The Stones, ABKCO and the BBC. If one of these parties says "NO", then it can't happen.

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stonehearted
...And note also that The Stones have not in recent years released on CD any live albums from before Ya-Yas...

They did actually - the "Live In England ´65" CD/10" in the "Charlie Is My Darling" box. And superb it is, too!

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rootsman

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stonehearted
...And note also that The Stones have not in recent years released on CD any live albums from before Ya-Yas...

They did actually - the "Live In England ´65" CD/10" in the "Charlie Is My Darling" box. And superb it is, too!

That's great for those who shelled out and sprung for the box set, but I just bought the DVD.

Obviously, they must have made a negotiated deal with ABKCO, but the CD in question was not for general release.

I wonder if the IBC stuff predates ABKCO? Was Oldham already on the scene for their very first recording session?

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24FPS
I wonder if the IBC stuff predates ABKCO? Was Oldham already on the scene for their very first recording session?

No, ALO wasn't there for the IBC demos. His tenure begins with Come On.

Allen Klein didn't arrive on the scene until 1965, yet he still managed to retroactively claim ownership of their recordings done before then.

The IBC demos were released as part of one of the GRRR! packages. No doubt ABKCO controls those as well.

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stonehearted

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rootsman

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stonehearted
...And note also that The Stones have not in recent years released on CD any live albums from before Ya-Yas...

They did actually - the "Live In England ´65" CD/10" in the "Charlie Is My Darling" box. And superb it is, too!

That's great for those who shelled out and sprung for the box set, but I just bought the DVD.

Obviously, they must have made a negotiated deal with ABKCO, but the CD in question was not for general release.

What does that mean - "not for general release"?

Of course it would have been better to have "Live In England ´65" also released separately, but it was/is available to buy in the box.

Well of course they should be but -
As we already have everything thought to exist on bootleg, i would much rather see the release of the acetate Bill has from the band's 1964 radio luxembourg appearance - sound quality should be pretty good and a lot can be done these days to remove clicks and pops without harming the music.Plus Abcko wouldn't have to deal with the bbc.
Apart from what was broadcast in Stones at the beeb it's unclear how many tapes survive in the kind of quality that would meet Abcko and the Stones approval.
There have been rumours about tape recovery but no hard evidence. (Dust My Pyramids anyone ?)
The fact that many/most songs are covers means Abcko wont see much money from a publishing point of view - also true for the radio luxembourg acetate. That could be a big stumbling block.
Did Bernie Andrew's tapes include the Bo Diddley Saturday Club with Bill and Charlie ? I'd like to hear that.

It's also worth noting that some of the official BBC sets have been very poorly reproduced for cd - some highly questionable eq and intro/outro cuts to remove announcers - check out the Hollies Radio Fun cd abomination- some disastrous cuts there. WTF were they thinking and no King Midas In Reverse ? Beatles live at the bbc - questionable song selection,bad eq and the Cream set sounds like crap compared to the best boots or surviving transcription discs.
I suspect the 4 tracks released recently (in one of the GRR packages ?) are all we are likely to see for some time and as they were among the best surviving performances i'm not sure there'd be much of an appetite for a full BBC set as far as abkco and the stones are concerned.

They could make money easily by simply releasing bootlegs as is or near as is on some kind of sub label or as online downloads.

It doesn't have to be a big proper release, they could easily do it like DGM/King Crimson for example...

[www.dgmlive.com]

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ash
Well of course they should be but -
As we already have everything thought to exist on bootleg, i would much rather see the release of the acetate Bill has from the band's 1964 radio luxembourg appearance - sound quality should be pretty good and a lot can be done these days to remove clicks and pops without harming the music.Plus Abcko wouldn't have to deal with the bbc.
Apart from what was broadcast in Stones at the beeb it's unclear how many tapes survive in the kind of quality that would meet Abcko and the Stones approval.
There have been rumours about tape recovery but no hard evidence. (Dust My Pyramids anyone ?)
The fact that many/most songs are covers means Abcko wont see much money from a publishing point of view - also true for the radio luxembourg acetate. That could be a big stumbling block.
Did Bernie Andrew's tapes include the Bo Diddley Saturday Club with Bill and Charlie ? I'd like to hear that.

It's also worth noting that some of the official BBC sets have been very poorly reproduced for cd - some highly questionable eq and intro/outro cuts to remove announcers - check out the Hollies Radio Fun cd abomination- some disastrous cuts there. WTF were they thinking and no King Midas In Reverse ? Beatles live at the bbc - questionable song selection,bad eq and the Cream set sounds like crap compared to the best boots or surviving transcription discs.
I suspect the 4 tracks released recently (in one of the GRR packages ?) are all we are likely to see for some time and as they were among the best surviving performances i'm not sure there'd be much of an appetite for a full BBC set as far as abkco and the stones are concerned.

i do agree the cream set leaves a lot to be desired in the sound department. i can't understand why the kinks had a 2 cd set released and then a big 5 disc bbc set but cream and the who only got 1 disc. surely the who are more popular than the kinks

I may be wrong but I think ABKO/Klein owns the publishing too. That would be another complicating factor.

Now that they just released the Little Boy Blue & The Blue Boys-tapes, they may as well release other stuff from that era...

The Little Boy Blue recordings are owned by no one. They are public domain recordings, and neither ABKCO or The Stones can do anything about the release.

The BBC recordings is not an interesting release to do. The recordings are already out there and I highly doubt there could be improved on the sound quality. And if they did, people would complain and moan over noise reduction, edits and la-de-da anyway.

There are far more interesting things to do. Don Was has expressed interest in making deluxe editions of Beggars, Bleed and Sticky. My two cents is that we will see these releases soon, now that there are space to work on such projects.

In fact, when we heard the alternate takes of No Expectations and Salt Of The Earth in Crossfire Hurricane, maybe there is a connection to why those two songs, instead of hundreds of others, were used. Maybe they are working on a Beggars deluxe right now.

And yes, all parts have to agree on a release, but so far, that's not been a problem, since both Ya-ya's and Exile have been released with co-operation from all parts.

Hi Blueranger - People would "complain and moan if noise reduction,edits and la-de-da" if such things were done stupidly. If you're a Hollies fan and you've heard how they've chopped some of the bbc tracks or the attempts at eq by Crapple you'd understand that sometimes the complaints are justified. It strikes me that much of this work is done by technicians and not musicians.
I promise you i'm not a militant Hoffman board member ! I just can't believe some of the "stuff" that goes on with reissues/historic releases.
I think they should just release the whole lot as is for flac download and leave the clean-ups to the consumer. I know there are many occassions on reissues where people complain about this and that but some of those official bbc sets are piss poor and needn't be. I have many of the original transcription disc recordings and they are fine. They are radio recordings not "proper studio recordings"- there's no need to brickwall/bass boost/hiss cut/edit.
Anyway like i said, i'd rather have Bill's radio luxembourg acetate recorded March 18th 1964. Here's the track list
1 Bye Bye Johnny
2 I Wanna Be Your Man
3 Diddley Daddy
4 Little By Little
5 Look What You’ve Done
6 Mona
7 Not Fade Away
8 Now I’ve Got A Witness
9 Pretty Thing
10 Walking The Dog
11 You Better Move On
12 Reelin’ And Rockin’
13 Roll Over Beethoven
14 Route 66

If you like the early Stones that looks pretty tasty. No licencing problems either unless Bill doesn't co=operate.

that looks great

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Blueranger
Maybe they are working on a Beggars deluxe right now.

Kinda hope so, but kinda don't as new vocals on outtakes and wonky edits like on 1969 Loving Cup on the Exile deluxe might make it a good, but also frustrating release.

There's been a lot more co-operation between the Stones and ABKCO in the last decade or so than at any time since they left the label. Plus, arent ABKCO a subsidiary now of UMG for most of the world (except the US, I think)?

I honestly can't imagine that there's much of a stumbling block preventing the release of this material. I'd file it under 'pretty much inevitable', at some point.

If anything, the biggest hurdle is the likelihood that the BBC have wiped a sizeable proportion of the masters, as they did with the band's TV appearances.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-06-27 15:30 by Gazza.

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ash

1 Bye Bye Johnny
2 I Wanna Be Your Man
3 Diddley Daddy
4 Little By Little
5 Look What You’ve Done
6 Mona
7 Not Fade Away
8 Now I’ve Got A Witness
9 Pretty Thing
10 Walking The Dog
11 You Better Move On
12 Reelin’ And Rockin’
13 Roll Over Beethoven
14 Route 66

Set list from heaven!

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Big Al

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ash

1 Bye Bye Johnny
2 I Wanna Be Your Man
3 Diddley Daddy
4 Little By Little
5 Look What You’ve Done
6 Mona
7 Not Fade Away
8 Now I’ve Got A Witness
9 Pretty Thing
10 Walking The Dog
11 You Better Move On
12 Reelin’ And Rockin’
13 Roll Over Beethoven
14 Route 66

Set list from heaven!

Indeed. And I suspect that the "Reelin' And Rockin'" that surfaced on various bootlegs in recent years is from THIS acetate, and not from Chess Studios as claimed; it simply does not have the Chess sound.

at least there's this

Label and sleeve say © 2012 ABKCO Music and records Inc. & Promotone B.V. Under exclusive license from BBC.






"As we say in England, it can get a bit trainspottery"



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2013-06-27 19:46 by Deltics.

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Gazza
There's been a lot more co-operation between the Stones and ABKCO in the last decade or so than at any time since they left the label. Plus, arent ABKCO a subsidiary now of UMG for most of the world (except the US, I think)?

I honestly can't imagine that there's much of a stumbling block preventing the release of this material. I'd file it under 'pretty much inevitable', at some point.

If anything, the biggest hurdle is the likelihood that the BBC have wiped a sizeable proportion of the masters, as they did with the band's TV appearances.

Possible - but they certainly still have some of them, because one or two show up once in a while as "archive session" tracks on BBC6Music.

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rootsman

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stonehearted

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rootsman

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stonehearted
...And note also that The Stones have not in recent years released on CD any live albums from before Ya-Yas...

They did actually - the "Live In England ´65" CD/10" in the "Charlie Is My Darling" box. And superb it is, too!

That's great for those who shelled out and sprung for the box set, but I just bought the DVD.

Obviously, they must have made a negotiated deal with ABKCO, but the CD in question was not for general release.

What does that mean - "not for general release"?

Of course it would have been better to have "Live In England ´65" also released separately, but it was/is available to buy in the box.

By "general release" I mean as a separate independent CD that shows up in the record bins with all the other Stones CDs. I passed on the box set because it has some materials that I cannot use--isn't there a vinyl included as part of the package.

As a result, most casual fans don't even know of its existence. If they decide to browse through the Rolling Stones section of the record store for a live album, they will see the usual Love You Live or Ya-Yas and will never even know that there is a little gem called Live In England '65.

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Green Lady

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Gazza
There's been a lot more co-operation between the Stones and ABKCO in the last decade or so than at any time since they left the label. Plus, arent ABKCO a subsidiary now of UMG for most of the world (except the US, I think)?

I honestly can't imagine that there's much of a stumbling block preventing the release of this material. I'd file it under 'pretty much inevitable', at some point.

If anything, the biggest hurdle is the likelihood that the BBC have wiped a sizeable proportion of the masters, as they did with the band's TV appearances.

Possible - but they certainly still have some of them, because one or two show up once in a while as "archive session" tracks on BBC6Music.

Oh they definitely do. Remember the 1985 'Stones at the Beeb' radio special which unearthed some lost gems?

I'm just dubious as to whether there's much there that isnt currently available.

Some fans who have been around for a while on here may remember these tantalising little stories from January 4 and January 7, 1998.

[www.iorr.org]

Unfortunately, it came to nothing.