Tell Me :
Talk
Who do i put my faith in ? I use my common sense, I believe in humanism: - human rights.
I dont believe in Allah, Zeus, Thor or Jesus - cause I believe in humanity, humanism, and common sense, thinking, simple conversations, love and science. - i dont need myths from ancient medieval times. I believe in evidence when I see it, things like that...I believe in working together, instead of living in wishful thinkin
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2012-11-07 21:01 by seitan.
How many people still believe in Thor? How many people still believe in Jesus? Kind of a silly analogy isn't it? I believe in common sense, human rights and science and I also believe in God. The two aren't mutually exclusive.
I never understood the parents/children analogy regarding government/citizens. In a democracy, you can choose your government. But no matter what type of society you live in, you can't choose your parents.
I don't like the radical tea party candidates either- that's not to say that the whole tea party is radical but the Republicans cost themselves three or four Senate seats over the last couple elections by nominating far right candidates. Both sides need to move back to the center and get away from the radicals.
So you are an Obama supporter that doesn't like Fox News. What a shock. I hope I'm wrong but America is in for a tough four years. The problem is there are too many liberals that are too stubborn to admit they made a mistake four years ago.
Obama had a full majority from 2009 thru 2010 and the dems controlled Congress for two years before that. His overreach resulted in his party getting stomped in 2010 and the "dysfunctional" Republican controlled House (only) was able to put a stop to his intentional destruction of a once great nation. THAT is what they were elctedf to do and THAT balance of power, thankfully, hasn't changed.
Obama isn't President of The United States anymore because for all intents and purposes the UNITED States no longer exists. He's President of half a country.
The fun has just begun, boys and girls.
But there is no god. And without a god, faith is, well...illusional? Childish? Utter crap? Rediculous? Nonsensical? Absurd? Preposterous?
Mathijs
There is a god, and it ain't you....but you are all those other things you mention!
Well Abraham, Moses, Noah and Jesus all spoke of a God and on the other hand some dude from iorr (probably a well meaning dude) says there is no God. Hmmmm I think I will go with there being a God but you can disagree if you want.
You sure? Where? What's he doing? What did he do?
Mathijs
He is busy preparing your punishment for not believing in him. He will make you listen to Emotional Rescue over and over and over again.
At least I am an actual living being, the others are non-historical, fictional characters.
Mathijs
As long as he doesn't make me listen to Jeff Beck I am o.k. with it.
Mathijs
You really believe even Jesus was a fictional character? The way we measure time was rearranged because of a fictional character?
+ big nuclear agreement with Russia. A main reason for getting the Nobel Peace Prise
Indeed.
No, it was because of the Romans.
He sure is fictional, no doubt about it. Inspirational, but fictional. Please take the time to read this article:
[www.nobeliefs.com]
This article, and many more articles, including scientific articles, sum up nicely what the origins of Christianity are (basically a continuation of many religions from way before Jesus' time, but already including a Jesus, a Mary, virgin sin etc), and the total lack of any contemporary mention of 'a' Jesus, even though he is described by the apostels as being powerful and known with the rulers (Roman and Jewish) of his time.
Mathijs
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2012-11-07 21:44 by Mathijs.
Science proves religions are a load of made up nonsense.
So the Romans just had a whim to start counting time at zero about two thousand years ago? There was no event that took place around two thousand years ago? I don't care if you aetheists believe in God or not. While I try to point the way to people who are lost I won't lose sleep if people don't believe. It's your loss.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2012-11-07 21:56 by FrankM.
[/quote]
You can believe anything you want -in fact I believe I am very handsome, rich and smart. But science does not leave quite a place for a god, or leaves a quite useless place for god -he didn't do a thing, and he won't do a thing in the years to come. So, what's the use.
Mathijs
Talk about your favorite band.
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Re: OT : Obama Re-Elected U.S. President
Posted by:
FrankM
()
Date: November 7, 2012 20:50
America is simply changing. Too many people think the government owes them a living and the Dems promise endless handouts. It's like a kid that has a tough dad and a mom that wants to give him endless candy. Which one will he vote for?
Sad state of affairs in this once great country.
Sad state of affairs in this once great country.
Re: OT : Obama Re-Elected U.S. President
Posted by:
seitan
()
Date: November 7, 2012 20:58
Quote
FrankM
"I don't understand why religous people could ever be taken seriously"
I don't understand why anyone who makes a comment like that can be taken seriously.
Religion is far more important than politics. While I may pull for a certain cadidate I put my faith in God not any political party. Who do you put your faith in?
Who do i put my faith in ? I use my common sense, I believe in humanism: - human rights.
I dont believe in Allah, Zeus, Thor or Jesus - cause I believe in humanity, humanism, and common sense, thinking, simple conversations, love and science. - i dont need myths from ancient medieval times. I believe in evidence when I see it, things like that...I believe in working together, instead of living in wishful thinkin
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2012-11-07 21:01 by seitan.
Re: OT : Obama Re-Elected U.S. President
Posted by:
flacnvinyl
()
Date: November 7, 2012 21:01
@FrankM - Business owners like myself are in for a long four years. I have a SMALL business, so I wont be hit as hard as my clients/friends DIRECTLY.. but we are all going to feel it..
1. Trickle-down taxation: Democrats will tax the wealthy, job creators, corporations and large businesses. Those businesses will simply dump those taxes on their products and services. In other words.. we (the 99%) will pay those tax increases ANYWAYS.
2. Entitlement Spending: I wish the Obama supporters were as passionate about getting jobs as they were about getting votes. Not happening.
3. INFLATION: It is already happening. Dramatic increases across the board on ALL goods, not just gas. The dollar is worth less, our savings are worth less, salaries worth less... all because everything costs more, especially food costs. Combo meal at fast-food joints used to be around $5-$6... Now they're $8-$10 in the south, not metro areas. DRAMATIC inflation in the past four years..
4. Corporate vs Government: The TRUTH... The federal government is the country's largest business. The Dems want to say corporations don't have souls... Then why are they so adamant about handing over control of our healthcare system to the largest business in the country?
I am not wealth.
I do not want a handout.
I WANT EVERYONE TO WORK.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2012-11-07 21:03 by flacnvinyl.
1. Trickle-down taxation: Democrats will tax the wealthy, job creators, corporations and large businesses. Those businesses will simply dump those taxes on their products and services. In other words.. we (the 99%) will pay those tax increases ANYWAYS.
2. Entitlement Spending: I wish the Obama supporters were as passionate about getting jobs as they were about getting votes. Not happening.
3. INFLATION: It is already happening. Dramatic increases across the board on ALL goods, not just gas. The dollar is worth less, our savings are worth less, salaries worth less... all because everything costs more, especially food costs. Combo meal at fast-food joints used to be around $5-$6... Now they're $8-$10 in the south, not metro areas. DRAMATIC inflation in the past four years..
4. Corporate vs Government: The TRUTH... The federal government is the country's largest business. The Dems want to say corporations don't have souls... Then why are they so adamant about handing over control of our healthcare system to the largest business in the country?
I am not wealth.
I do not want a handout.
I WANT EVERYONE TO WORK.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2012-11-07 21:03 by flacnvinyl.
Re: OT : Obama Re-Elected U.S. President
Posted by:
chris girard
()
Date: November 7, 2012 21:03
The Republicans and Romney lost the election because they are becoming the political party of old white guys. Rommney made a big mistake by not conteming the comments made about rape and abortion that were made by some of the more radical tea party candidates. He lost the female vote by a wide margin by not throwing those couple of radicals under the bus. The Republicans need to a lot of soul searching, how to appeal to the growing Latino voters, female voters, and young educated people.
Appealing to the Fox news, redneck, radical Christian right wing will not win any national elections.
I supported Obama and think he is doing as well as he can do under the circumstances of a disfunctional repubican controlled congress. Hopefully the next four years will be better.
Appealing to the Fox news, redneck, radical Christian right wing will not win any national elections.
I supported Obama and think he is doing as well as he can do under the circumstances of a disfunctional repubican controlled congress. Hopefully the next four years will be better.
Re: OT : Obama Re-Elected U.S. President
Posted by:
FrankM
()
Date: November 7, 2012 21:06
Quote
seitanQuote
FrankM
"I don't understand why religous people could ever be taken seriously"
I don't understand why anyone who makes a comment like that can be taken seriously.
Religion is far more important than politics. While I may pull for a certain cadidate I put my faith in God not any political party. Who do you put your faith in?
Who do i put my faith in ? I use my common sense, I believe in humanism, human rights, cause I dont believe in Allah, Zeus, Thor or Jesus - cause I believe in humanity, humanism, and common sense, thinking, simple conversations, love and science. - i dont need myths from ancient medieval times. I believe in evidence when I see it, things like that...
How many people still believe in Thor? How many people still believe in Jesus? Kind of a silly analogy isn't it? I believe in common sense, human rights and science and I also believe in God. The two aren't mutually exclusive.
Re: OT : Obama Re-Elected U.S. President
Posted by:
stonesnow
()
Date: November 7, 2012 21:09
Quote
FrankM
America is simply changing. Too many people think the government owes them a living and the Dems promise endless handouts. It's like a kid that has a tough dad and a mom that wants to give him endless candy. Which one will he vote for?
Sad state of affairs in this once great country.
I never understood the parents/children analogy regarding government/citizens. In a democracy, you can choose your government. But no matter what type of society you live in, you can't choose your parents.
Re: OT : Obama Re-Elected U.S. President
Posted by:
FrankM
()
Date: November 7, 2012 21:14
Quote
chris girard
The Republicans and Romney lost the election because they are becoming the political party of old white guys. Rommney made a big mistake by not conteming the comments made about rape and abortion that were made by some of the more radical tea party candidates. He lost the female vote by a wide margin by not throwing those couple of radicals under the bus. The Republicans need to a lot of soul searching, how to appeal to the growing Latino voters, female voters, and young educated people.
Appealing to the Fox news, redneck, radical Christian right wing will not win any national elections.
I supported Obama and think he is doing as well as he can do under the circumstances of a disfunctional repubican controlled congress. Hopefully the next four years will be better.
I don't like the radical tea party candidates either- that's not to say that the whole tea party is radical but the Republicans cost themselves three or four Senate seats over the last couple elections by nominating far right candidates. Both sides need to move back to the center and get away from the radicals.
So you are an Obama supporter that doesn't like Fox News. What a shock. I hope I'm wrong but America is in for a tough four years. The problem is there are too many liberals that are too stubborn to admit they made a mistake four years ago.
Re: OT : Obama Re-Elected U.S. President
Posted by:
R
()
Date: November 7, 2012 21:18
Quote
chris girard
I supported Obama and think he is doing as well as he can do under the circumstances of a disfunctional repubican controlled congress. Hopefully the next four years will be better.
Obama had a full majority from 2009 thru 2010 and the dems controlled Congress for two years before that. His overreach resulted in his party getting stomped in 2010 and the "dysfunctional" Republican controlled House (only) was able to put a stop to his intentional destruction of a once great nation. THAT is what they were elctedf to do and THAT balance of power, thankfully, hasn't changed.
Obama isn't President of The United States anymore because for all intents and purposes the UNITED States no longer exists. He's President of half a country.
The fun has just begun, boys and girls.
Re: OT : Obama Re-Elected U.S. President
Posted by:
Mathijs
()
Date: November 7, 2012 21:19
Quote
FrankM
"I don't understand why religous people could ever be taken seriously"
I don't understand why anyone who makes a comment like that can be taken seriously.
Religion is far more important than politics. While I may pull for a certain cadidate I put my faith in God not any political party. Who do you put your faith in?
But there is no god. And without a god, faith is, well...illusional? Childish? Utter crap? Rediculous? Nonsensical? Absurd? Preposterous?
Mathijs
Re: OT : Obama Re-Elected U.S. President
Posted by:
Munichhilton
()
Date: November 7, 2012 21:21
Quote
Mathijs
But there is no god. And without a god, faith is, well...illusional? Childish? Utter crap? Rediculous? Nonsensical? Absurd? Preposterous?
Mathijs
There is a god, and it ain't you....but you are all those other things you mention!
Re: OT : Obama Re-Elected U.S. President
Posted by:
FrankM
()
Date: November 7, 2012 21:23
Quote
MathijsQuote
FrankM
"I don't understand why religous people could ever be taken seriously"
I don't understand why anyone who makes a comment like that can be taken seriously.
Religion is far more important than politics. While I may pull for a certain cadidate I put my faith in God not any political party. Who do you put your faith in?
But there is no god. And without a god, faith is, well...illusional? Childish? Utter crap? Rediculous? Nonsensical? Absurd? Preposterous?
Mathijs
Well Abraham, Moses, Noah and Jesus all spoke of a God and on the other hand some dude from iorr (probably a well meaning dude) says there is no God. Hmmmm I think I will go with there being a God but you can disagree if you want.
Re: OT : Obama Re-Elected U.S. President
Posted by:
Mathijs
()
Date: November 7, 2012 21:23
Quote
MunichhiltonQuote
Mathijs
But there is no god. And without a god, faith is, well...illusional? Childish? Utter crap? Rediculous? Nonsensical? Absurd? Preposterous?
Mathijs
There is a god
You sure? Where? What's he doing? What did he do?
Mathijs
Re: OT : Obama Re-Elected U.S. President
Posted by:
FrankM
()
Date: November 7, 2012 21:27
Quote
MathijsQuote
MunichhiltonQuote
Mathijs
But there is no god. And without a god, faith is, well...illusional? Childish? Utter crap? Rediculous? Nonsensical? Absurd? Preposterous?
Mathijs
There is a god
You sure? Where? What's he doing? What did he do?
Mathijs
He is busy preparing your punishment for not believing in him. He will make you listen to Emotional Rescue over and over and over again.
Re: OT : Obama Re-Elected U.S. President
Posted by:
Mathijs
()
Date: November 7, 2012 21:29
Quote
FrankMQuote
MathijsQuote
FrankM
"I don't understand why religous people could ever be taken seriously"
I don't understand why anyone who makes a comment like that can be taken seriously.
Religion is far more important than politics. While I may pull for a certain cadidate I put my faith in God not any political party. Who do you put your faith in?
But there is no god. And without a god, faith is, well...illusional? Childish? Utter crap? Rediculous? Nonsensical? Absurd? Preposterous?
Mathijs
Well Abraham, Moses, Noah and Jesus all spoke of a God and on the other hand some dude from iorr (probably a well meaning dude) says there is no God. Hmmmm I think I will go with there being a God but you can disagree if you want.
At least I am an actual living being, the others are non-historical, fictional characters.
Mathijs
Re: OT : Obama Re-Elected U.S. President
Posted by:
Mathijs
()
Date: November 7, 2012 21:31
Quote
FrankMQuote
MathijsQuote
MunichhiltonQuote
Mathijs
But there is no god. And without a god, faith is, well...illusional? Childish? Utter crap? Rediculous? Nonsensical? Absurd? Preposterous?
Mathijs
There is a god
You sure? Where? What's he doing? What did he do?
Mathijs
He is busy preparing your punishment for not believing in him. He will make you listen to Emotional Rescue over and over and over again.
As long as he doesn't make me listen to Jeff Beck I am o.k. with it.
Mathijs
Re: OT : Obama Re-Elected U.S. President
Posted by:
FrankM
()
Date: November 7, 2012 21:33
Quote
MathijsQuote
FrankMQuote
MathijsQuote
FrankM
"I don't understand why religous people could ever be taken seriously"
I don't understand why anyone who makes a comment like that can be taken seriously.
Religion is far more important than politics. While I may pull for a certain cadidate I put my faith in God not any political party. Who do you put your faith in?
But there is no god. And without a god, faith is, well...illusional? Childish? Utter crap? Rediculous? Nonsensical? Absurd? Preposterous?
Mathijs
Well Abraham, Moses, Noah and Jesus all spoke of a God and on the other hand some dude from iorr (probably a well meaning dude) says there is no God. Hmmmm I think I will go with there being a God but you can disagree if you want.
At least I am an actual living being, the others are non-historical, fictional characters.
Mathijs
You really believe even Jesus was a fictional character? The way we measure time was rearranged because of a fictional character?
Re: OT : Obama Re-Elected U.S. President
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: November 7, 2012 21:34
LOL !
Re: OT : Obama Re-Elected U.S. President
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: November 7, 2012 21:38
Quote
gimmelittledrink
Heath care reform
Iraq war ended
Afghanistan war winding down
Death of Bin Laden
Brought US economy back from the verge of collapse
Rescued American automobile industry
Tax cuts for middle class
Wall Steet reform
Improved foreign relations
Less reliance on foreign oil
Congratulations Mr. President!
+ big nuclear agreement with Russia. A main reason for getting the Nobel Peace Prise
Re: OT : Obama Re-Elected U.S. President
Posted by:
His Majesty
()
Date: November 7, 2012 21:38
Quote
Mathijs
there is no god.
Indeed.
Re: OT : Obama Re-Elected U.S. President
Posted by:
stonesrule
()
Date: November 7, 2012 21:38
chris girard, thanks for your posts. Welcome bit of sanity.
Re: OT : Obama Re-Elected U.S. President
Posted by:
shortfatfanny
()
Date: November 7, 2012 21:38
Quote
seitanQuote
FrankM
"I don't understand why religous people could ever be taken seriously"
I don't understand why anyone who makes a comment like that can be taken seriously.
Religion is far more important than politics. While I may pull for a certain cadidate I put my faith in God not any political party. Who do you put your faith in?
Who do i put my faith in ? I use my common sense, I believe in humanism: - human rights.
I dont believe in Allah, Zeus, Thor or Jesus - cause I believe in humanity, humanism, and common sense, thinking, simple conversations, love and science. - i dont need myths from ancient medieval times. I believe in evidence when I see it, things like that...I believe in working together, instead of living in wishful thinkin
Re: OT : Obama Re-Elected U.S. President
Posted by:
stonesnow
()
Date: November 7, 2012 21:39
Quote
FrankMQuote
MathijsQuote
FrankMQuote
MathijsQuote
FrankM
"I don't understand why religous people could ever be taken seriously"
I don't understand why anyone who makes a comment like that can be taken seriously.
Religion is far more important than politics. While I may pull for a certain cadidate I put my faith in God not any political party. Who do you put your faith in?
But there is no god. And without a god, faith is, well...illusional? Childish? Utter crap? Rediculous? Nonsensical? Absurd? Preposterous?
Mathijs
Well Abraham, Moses, Noah and Jesus all spoke of a God and on the other hand some dude from iorr (probably a well meaning dude) says there is no God. Hmmmm I think I will go with there being a God but you can disagree if you want.
At least I am an actual living being, the others are non-historical, fictional characters.
Mathijs
You really believe even Jesus was a fictional character? The way we measure time was rearranged because of a fictional character?
No, it was because of the Romans.
Re: OT : Obama Re-Elected U.S. President
Posted by:
Mathijs
()
Date: November 7, 2012 21:41
Quote
FrankMQuote
MathijsQuote
FrankMQuote
MathijsQuote
FrankM
"I don't understand why religous people could ever be taken seriously"
I don't understand why anyone who makes a comment like that can be taken seriously.
Religion is far more important than politics. While I may pull for a certain cadidate I put my faith in God not any political party. Who do you put your faith in?
But there is no god. And without a god, faith is, well...illusional? Childish? Utter crap? Rediculous? Nonsensical? Absurd? Preposterous?
Mathijs
Well Abraham, Moses, Noah and Jesus all spoke of a God and on the other hand some dude from iorr (probably a well meaning dude) says there is no God. Hmmmm I think I will go with there being a God but you can disagree if you want.
At least I am an actual living being, the others are non-historical, fictional characters.
Mathijs
You really believe even Jesus was a fictional character? The way we measure time was rearranged because of a fictional character?
He sure is fictional, no doubt about it. Inspirational, but fictional. Please take the time to read this article:
[www.nobeliefs.com]
This article, and many more articles, including scientific articles, sum up nicely what the origins of Christianity are (basically a continuation of many religions from way before Jesus' time, but already including a Jesus, a Mary, virgin sin etc), and the total lack of any contemporary mention of 'a' Jesus, even though he is described by the apostels as being powerful and known with the rulers (Roman and Jewish) of his time.
Mathijs
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2012-11-07 21:44 by Mathijs.
Re: OT : Obama Re-Elected U.S. President
Posted by:
mr_dja
()
Date: November 7, 2012 21:44
First off let me state my position. I am a life-long independent. A social liberal & a fiscal conservative. I believe that all individuals have some form of greatness inside of them. I am opposed to a large, tax & spend federal government.
I believe the saddest result of last night's election is going to be the continued diminishing role & worth of the individual not only in the USA but also world-wide.
Depending on our ages, many of us have witnessed the USA to be this huge military & economic power imposing it's will for right or wrong all over the world. I truly find this to be unfortunate as, I don't believe for a second that any of the individuals who signed their names on the Declaration of Independence or who ratified the Constitution ever would have wanted or allowed this to happen.
Say what you want about religious freedom & taxation without representation, when it comes down to the bottom line, the original concept of America was an idea that the individual was of primary importance and without a government standing in their way, individuals could succeed on their own. We've been losing that for decades and last night we sold even more of it away.
For the better part of a century & a half, America was viewed as and actually was a land of opportunity where anyone from any background would have the same opportunity to succeed as anyone else. We progressed from a back-woods, third world nation to a world super-power with no "Social Security", no "Welfare", no "Obamacare", etc. For years we had no government safety nets under us yet people, individually & collectively, managed to succeed. As we've allowed more and more government "safety nets" to be placed under us, we've allowed success to be demonized to the point where, currently, it's almost viewed as a bad thing to be individually successful. Now we are being forced to realize that the "American Dream" has been or will be, for all practical purposes, legislated out of existence.
JFK must be rolling over in his grave this morning as he's forced to admit how far we've come from "Ask not what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country". As a citizen and a voter, I'm embarrassed to have to admit that, in "the land of opportunity" there are now more people receiving handouts than people paying for the handouts. How did we reach a point where large portions of "we the people" celebrate a federal healthcare plan that our legislators exempted themselves from due to the fact that the legislators have a better plan for themselves that they won't extend to cover "the people"? What? How "we the people" didn't vote out anyone who signed off on that bill is beyond me. If anyone ever needed proof that there is an "us" & a "them" in the USA I don't know how much clearer of an example of how our current political class views the population would have to be if you missed that example. Is this what we are prepared to allow America to become? Do we really want for the people to survive off the handouts of the political ruling class? I don’t think that way but there seem to be posters here who think that is superior to an individual providing for themselves.
I will not for a second deny that "We the people" are at fault. We have allowed the two major political parties to monopolize our political process. We have allowed two political parties to turn the media and information sources into their own propaganda tools. We have allowed ourselves to start believing that we actually need government aid to be able to survive. And by that I mean, government financial aid. I won't deny that a government which protects and provides a level playing field so that all individuals have equal opportunities under the law, is a good thing. However, when government becomes a never ending cash dispersal entity, I believe it actually harms the people more than it helps them.
I think I've probably said enough. Thanks bv for allowing us the chance to converse on a topic usually taboo. I started writing this when we were at page six and was going to thank people for not turning this ugly. I knew it was to good to be true but it was fun while it lasted even though some of the radicals are trying to spoil it now two pages later. Still, some good posts on both sides. I may or may not agree, but I have enjoyed reading.
For the small government, fiscal conservatives among us, let's hope that the results aren't quite as bad as we think they're going to be. And if they are, let's just hope that some of the morally superior liberals around here are as happy bailing us out of the forthcoming US economic meltdown as they are at celebrating the death of the republican party. As an independent, I just wish that “we the people” could have killed off BOTH major parties in one swipe. For those of you who haven’t realized it, the ideology of either party isn’t necessarily the root problem in itself. The problem is, they are both ongoing exclusive parties to which we the people aren’t invited. We the people are just expected to pay for and clean up afterwards.
I wish us all peace,
Mr DJA
I believe the saddest result of last night's election is going to be the continued diminishing role & worth of the individual not only in the USA but also world-wide.
Depending on our ages, many of us have witnessed the USA to be this huge military & economic power imposing it's will for right or wrong all over the world. I truly find this to be unfortunate as, I don't believe for a second that any of the individuals who signed their names on the Declaration of Independence or who ratified the Constitution ever would have wanted or allowed this to happen.
Say what you want about religious freedom & taxation without representation, when it comes down to the bottom line, the original concept of America was an idea that the individual was of primary importance and without a government standing in their way, individuals could succeed on their own. We've been losing that for decades and last night we sold even more of it away.
For the better part of a century & a half, America was viewed as and actually was a land of opportunity where anyone from any background would have the same opportunity to succeed as anyone else. We progressed from a back-woods, third world nation to a world super-power with no "Social Security", no "Welfare", no "Obamacare", etc. For years we had no government safety nets under us yet people, individually & collectively, managed to succeed. As we've allowed more and more government "safety nets" to be placed under us, we've allowed success to be demonized to the point where, currently, it's almost viewed as a bad thing to be individually successful. Now we are being forced to realize that the "American Dream" has been or will be, for all practical purposes, legislated out of existence.
JFK must be rolling over in his grave this morning as he's forced to admit how far we've come from "Ask not what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country". As a citizen and a voter, I'm embarrassed to have to admit that, in "the land of opportunity" there are now more people receiving handouts than people paying for the handouts. How did we reach a point where large portions of "we the people" celebrate a federal healthcare plan that our legislators exempted themselves from due to the fact that the legislators have a better plan for themselves that they won't extend to cover "the people"? What? How "we the people" didn't vote out anyone who signed off on that bill is beyond me. If anyone ever needed proof that there is an "us" & a "them" in the USA I don't know how much clearer of an example of how our current political class views the population would have to be if you missed that example. Is this what we are prepared to allow America to become? Do we really want for the people to survive off the handouts of the political ruling class? I don’t think that way but there seem to be posters here who think that is superior to an individual providing for themselves.
I will not for a second deny that "We the people" are at fault. We have allowed the two major political parties to monopolize our political process. We have allowed two political parties to turn the media and information sources into their own propaganda tools. We have allowed ourselves to start believing that we actually need government aid to be able to survive. And by that I mean, government financial aid. I won't deny that a government which protects and provides a level playing field so that all individuals have equal opportunities under the law, is a good thing. However, when government becomes a never ending cash dispersal entity, I believe it actually harms the people more than it helps them.
I think I've probably said enough. Thanks bv for allowing us the chance to converse on a topic usually taboo. I started writing this when we were at page six and was going to thank people for not turning this ugly. I knew it was to good to be true but it was fun while it lasted even though some of the radicals are trying to spoil it now two pages later. Still, some good posts on both sides. I may or may not agree, but I have enjoyed reading.
For the small government, fiscal conservatives among us, let's hope that the results aren't quite as bad as we think they're going to be. And if they are, let's just hope that some of the morally superior liberals around here are as happy bailing us out of the forthcoming US economic meltdown as they are at celebrating the death of the republican party. As an independent, I just wish that “we the people” could have killed off BOTH major parties in one swipe. For those of you who haven’t realized it, the ideology of either party isn’t necessarily the root problem in itself. The problem is, they are both ongoing exclusive parties to which we the people aren’t invited. We the people are just expected to pay for and clean up afterwards.
I wish us all peace,
Mr DJA
Re: OT : Obama Re-Elected U.S. President
Posted by:
His Majesty
()
Date: November 7, 2012 21:46
Quote
FrankM
How many people still believe in Thor? How many people still believe in Jesus? Kind of a silly analogy isn't it? I believe in common sense, human rights and science and I also believe in God. The two aren't mutually exclusive.
Science proves religions are a load of made up nonsense.
Re: OT : Obama Re-Elected U.S. President
Posted by:
Erik_Snow
()
Date: November 7, 2012 21:47
So what's the verdict; God or no God? I guess the only way to be certain is to make a poll on IORR
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2012-11-07 21:49 by Erik_Snow.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2012-11-07 21:49 by Erik_Snow.
Re: OT : Obama Re-Elected U.S. President
Posted by:
latebloomer
()
Date: November 7, 2012 21:47
Oy, from politics to religion...here we go.
From a policy standpoint, there really isn't that much difference between the two parties. Whoever got elected would need to tack to the middle and that is exactly what Obama indicated in his victory speech, which some liberals are already grumbling about. The US is an essentially conservative country, still deeply religious and, for the most part, optimistic about the future. Americans don't want a devisive President, nor do they support a party they deem to be too extreme.
The Republicans will now have to do exactly what the Democrats did after Reagan was re-elected to his second term. At the time, the feeling was that Mondale was percieved to be too liberal and so the Dems spent time in the wilderness and came back to win with Clinton and his New Democrats, an idealogically centrist movement, which carried him through two elections. You can bet that we'll see the same version, with a different name of course, for the GOP in 2016.
If you are a student of history, you know that one election is not worth getting your blood pressure up about, it's politics, what goes around, will come around. Sure, there have been some groundbreaking elections - Lincoln's comes to mind - but this isn't one of them.
From a policy standpoint, there really isn't that much difference between the two parties. Whoever got elected would need to tack to the middle and that is exactly what Obama indicated in his victory speech, which some liberals are already grumbling about. The US is an essentially conservative country, still deeply religious and, for the most part, optimistic about the future. Americans don't want a devisive President, nor do they support a party they deem to be too extreme.
The Republicans will now have to do exactly what the Democrats did after Reagan was re-elected to his second term. At the time, the feeling was that Mondale was percieved to be too liberal and so the Dems spent time in the wilderness and came back to win with Clinton and his New Democrats, an idealogically centrist movement, which carried him through two elections. You can bet that we'll see the same version, with a different name of course, for the GOP in 2016.
If you are a student of history, you know that one election is not worth getting your blood pressure up about, it's politics, what goes around, will come around. Sure, there have been some groundbreaking elections - Lincoln's comes to mind - but this isn't one of them.
Re: OT : Obama Re-Elected U.S. President
Posted by:
mr_dja
()
Date: November 7, 2012 21:50
Don't worry about the Jeff Beck punishment Mathis, regardless of your belief or denial of God, He still believes in you.
Peace,
Mr DJA
Peace,
Mr DJA
Re: OT : Obama Re-Elected U.S. President
Posted by:
FrankM
()
Date: November 7, 2012 21:53
Quote
stonesnowQuote
FrankMQuote
MathijsQuote
FrankMQuote
MathijsQuote
FrankM
"I don't understand why religous people could ever be taken seriously"
I don't understand why anyone who makes a comment like that can be taken seriously.
Religion is far more important than politics. While I may pull for a certain cadidate I put my faith in God not any political party. Who do you put your faith in?
But there is no god. And without a god, faith is, well...illusional? Childish? Utter crap? Rediculous? Nonsensical? Absurd? Preposterous?
Mathijs
Well Abraham, Moses, Noah and Jesus all spoke of a God and on the other hand some dude from iorr (probably a well meaning dude) says there is no God. Hmmmm I think I will go with there being a God but you can disagree if you want.
At least I am an actual living being, the others are non-historical, fictional characters.
Mathijs
You really believe even Jesus was a fictional character? The way we measure time was rearranged because of a fictional character?
No, it was because of the Romans.
So the Romans just had a whim to start counting time at zero about two thousand years ago? There was no event that took place around two thousand years ago? I don't care if you aetheists believe in God or not. While I try to point the way to people who are lost I won't lose sleep if people don't believe. It's your loss.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2012-11-07 21:56 by FrankM.
Re: OT : Obama Re-Elected U.S. President
Posted by:
Mathijs
()
Date: November 7, 2012 21:53
Quote
FrankM
and science and I also believe in God. The two aren't mutually exclusive.
[/quote]
You can believe anything you want -in fact I believe I am very handsome, rich and smart. But science does not leave quite a place for a god, or leaves a quite useless place for god -he didn't do a thing, and he won't do a thing in the years to come. So, what's the use.
Mathijs
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