Quote
Max'sKansasCity

Quote
treaclefingers

Quote
Max'sKansasCity
cart before the warhorse....

I think we need to lobby BV to make this a permanent emoticon.

Seconded!

OK, I can live with that

Edit: Title

-------------------
Keep On Rolling



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2012-10-21 20:20 by Rolling Hansie.

Quote
paulm
I would guess J is a lawyer, academician, state, gov't or non-profit employee

Who is J ??? Justin or James ???

Edit: Title

-------------------
Keep On Rolling



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2012-10-21 20:19 by Rolling Hansie.

Quote
robv
To paraphrase Charlie:
"Twenty years of work, thirty years of hanging around..."

Yeah, something like that

-------------------
Keep On Rolling

Quote
Rolling Hansie

Quote
paulm
I would guess J is a lawyer, academician, state, gov't or non-profit employee

Who is J ??? Justin or James ???

Edit: Title

Definitely not me.

[thepowergoats.com]

Quote
jamesfdouglas
Hey look, I'm getting under Justin's skin again.
Dude, you've obvioulsy been thinking about things I've posted here. Maybe it's a sign that maybe you and the more blind cheerleader fanboys are waking the f$%& up about this band that is losing fans daily and deservedly.

Please. Maybe you forgot that you and I used to be "cool" on this board because there was a time when you and I both shared the exact same ideas. That was the only reason we got along. Go back to my posts and you'll see that I stuck it to the Stones whenever I had the chance and made my feelings clear that the veil had been lifted on this fan.


March 30, 2011:

Quote
Justin
dewlover, we're coming from different sides. My statement was clear to those who see the same things as me. I've reached a point where I've outgrown my fanboy hat and I'm taking a harder stance on the quality they're putting down. As a musician myself, I know the ups and downs of being "on the ball" musically. I understand Keith's logic...less is more and all that stuff. But his blatant disregard for the music and his unwillingness to admit his own physical limitations does not sit well with me--ESPECIALLY when I shell $400 a seat.

We see different things. You see your favorite band playing those songs and won't notice that Keith isn't giving it his all or Ronnie is slacking off...or that version of "Sympathy For The Devil" was stale as hell. Hell, if I'm at a show...I'd have a good time too. But it's hard to embrace the fact that I'm attending these shows simply for the spectacle and the company and no more for the content--the music. It takes a secondary position.

What the Stones would bring to the table in a new tour is nothing we haven't seen before: Huge-ass stage (with accompanying B-stage, gigantic screen and enough lights to rival the Vegas strip), warhorses, Keith playing even less and less rhythm, Charlie steady as a rock, Ronnie picking up the slack for Keith thereby compromising the role he was hired to do (support and complement Keith---not FILL IN for Keith) and Chuck laying down a foundation underneath the guitars to fill in for the missing rhythm playing.

I'm not even sure what we're arguing anymore...what they COULD do, what they WILL do or what they MIGHT do?? I'm talking to the whole package...the tour approach (arenas/stadiums/clubs) and quality of performances. The latter being the biggest issue--which I assumed EVERYONE on this board would be most concerned about--- not if they did stadium shows. Damn, I wouldn't care if they did stadium shows forever if only they played those songs DAMN well. But they don't--not to my ears---or wallet.

The only difference between you and I, James: I moved on from the anger and bitterness...you did not. When the "veil" was lifted I realized that the Stones weren't a band I could compare to any other working band, they were not a band to really take all that seriously anymore. These were dudes in their fecking SIXTIES. Why the hell was I giving them the same standards as The Black Keys or Ryan Adams...bands that were 30 or 40 years younger than them...bands in a completely different point in their careers?? It made no sense. I stopped taking them seriously as a band and simply treated them for what they were/are: a group of basically retired dudes who play their old music. They're not creating art, they're not advancing music or challenging their audience; and at this point in their career they don't have to anymore. They have already given me everything I needed as a fan. I seriously do not need one more thing from the Stones--I have reached full capacity. "Doom and Gloom" was pretty cool. Am I desperate (or curious) for a full new album? Hell no. Factor in my other loves for other bands/artists (some of them eclipsing my love for the Stones), the Stones' BS stopped bothering me. Eventually, I found the bitterness to be counterproductive and a waste of time...you on the other hand are still singing the same tune. If you really want to accept "reality"...then move the f*ck on already. I am very comfortable with my fandom today because I can see both sides now. I'm not on any extreme side of the spectrum--but right in the middle. High ticket prices suck balls. But that's the corner they've painted themselves in for decades and it was a long time coming. In the end, $800 tickets has nothing to do with the actual music. And wasn't it all about the music?

Should I expect a response from you? No way. It's not your style to really engage in a discussion. But don't say I didn't explain myself.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2012-10-21 22:47 by Justin.

Quote
24FPS
This is ending wonderfully. The vaults are wide open. I can spend $44.95 the evening of December 15th and not have to travel to New Jersey. The official boots alone have been fantastic. The Houston '78 show on DVD. Man, it's been nothing but heaven for 'true' Rolling Stones fan. Bill freakin' Wyman on stage with the boys. Thank god the Stones didn't abandon us in 1970 like the Finicky Four did.

I wonder if Bill is aware that he is appearing on stage with them...

how much of the negativity is due to the ticket prices? a few months ago most people waited for a tour. Most of people have known about the declining quality of delivery long time yet very few seemed to want them to stop...

Quote
MartinB
how much of the negativity is due to the ticket prices?

since the ticket prices were announced, i've sampled iorr posts and 63% of the negativity stems from it. margin of error: +3/-3

Quote
Witness
I wonder if they have arrived at a stage of life when chasing women or the booze will have lost some of its relative charms to them. Then, possibly and most hopefully, being musically creative together and individually, might continue to contain an act of passion for them. When available, we all want and seek passion. If they would notice a revived interest from the world in new recorded songs of theirs, «Doom And Gloom» as an indication, they might be inspired to go on making, recording and releasing songs. They might have become better in cooperation in a newfound or rather refound understanding from the past, and the making of music might greatly profit from it. In that case, they might continue to exist as a band as well as individually be parts of projects outside the band (like Superheavy).

The future of the band then would most certainly, sooner or later, involve the end of large scale touring. However, they might invite individuals to take part as audience to closed concerts from time to time and record, film and release the outcome as live music. Thereby, be able to go on to be inspired by the playing live that is so vital to them.

If this might happen, there will not be a declared end, and not in 2013. Instead the end will be later on when it is all over. Naturally all over, that is.

Wish thinking? Yes, of course.
But impossible?

"The passions of old men end in impotence."

----Alexis de Tocqueville

Quote
Doxa

Quote
Come On
"TWo decades of creating the legacy, three decades celebrating the legacy"... That's the 50 years of The Rolling Stones as it is.


Yup! That's how it is...

That's a line of stonesnow - credits to him!

- Doxa

Bless you, Doxa, I am honored!

Quote
Bliss
Stonescrow, thewatchman, MightyStonesRollin...whatever happened to them or him?

Banned. He had a thread about Mick Jagger fighting for lower ticket prices over the 4 upcoming shows, then another thread saying that they'd won the battle and that the shows were on. Then one day the thread title was changed to "Misleading information in this thread" and the first post in the thread showed that this edit had been made by BV. The thread was also suddenly closed. When you clicked on MightyStonesStillRollin50 that same day, it showed that his account had been deactivated.

Quote
StonesTod

Quote
MartinB
how much of the negativity is due to the ticket prices?

since the ticket prices were announced, i've sampled iorr posts and 63% of the negativity stems from it. margin of error: +3/-3

I expect a daily update to analyse a development...or not.

When it is all over are you going to look back at this thread as a 'beginning of the end' or as a 'middle of the end'? And which end? End of the year? End of their career? The last phase of their career? Which part of that is that?

So many questions.

The last laugh is on you probably.

Quote
stonesnow

Quote
Bliss
Stonescrow, thewatchman, MightyStonesRollin...whatever happened to them or him?

Banned. He had a thread about Mick Jagger fighting for lower ticket prices over the 4 upcoming shows, then another thread saying that they'd won the battle and that the shows were on. Then one day the thread title was changed to "Misleading information in this thread" and the first post in the thread showed that this edit had been made by BV. The thread was also suddenly closed. When you clicked on MightyStonesStillRollin50 that same day, it showed that his account had been deactivated.

Yes, we are all aware of that. But a new incarnation should have surely sprung up by now.

Quote
Bliss

Quote
stonesnow

Quote
Bliss
Stonescrow, thewatchman, MightyStonesRollin...whatever happened to them or him?

Banned. He had a thread about Mick Jagger fighting for lower ticket prices over the 4 upcoming shows, then another thread saying that they'd won the battle and that the shows were on. Then one day the thread title was changed to "Misleading information in this thread" and the first post in the thread showed that this edit had been made by BV. The thread was also suddenly closed. When you clicked on MightyStonesStillRollin50 that same day, it showed that his account had been deactivated.

Yes, we are all aware of that. But a new incarnation should have surely sprung up by now.

He seems to operate during down times in the Rolling Stones news cycle, that way he can stir up false hope and controversy through speculations on their next big move. But now that things are moving in Stonesworld, he will likely remain suspended in between IORR lives a bit longer.

Quote
paulm
Don't fret jamesfdouglas. Justin is very clever with words: "logical and balanced rationale" = his agenda. I would guess J is a lawyer, academician, state, gov't or non-profit employee (I'm a part time academician, so tuned in to this transparent rhetoric). We all vote where our bread is buttered, including Justin. However, even J's side is waking up to his sponsor's policies regarding things hard won, historically speaking.

Actually you are using the Stones as your rhetorical vehicle to spread your political agendas. The rest of us - including me - sticked to the Stones content in your original post, and took that at face value, but in the end it seemingly is nothing but one incarnation of your tiring and predictable anti-Obama bullshit. Mind you, most of us can't even vote in your presidential election (which is good for people like you), and quite many of them couldn't care a shit.

This is an international Stones board, not one to discuss homestic American politics.

- Doxa



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2012-10-22 12:26 by Doxa.

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WeLoveToPlayTheBlues

Quote
Justin
What's the title of your next thread?

We'll Wait And See?

I did not start this thread, altough I consider it a good one.
I am interested in the oppinions of other Stones Fans around the world.
So is my contribution nothing than an oppinion.
Oppinions are not facts. They are the basis for a discussion.
I can't see what's wrong in discussing. At least when you log into a forum,
there a few things to do there but discussing with people of similar (or opposite) interests.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2012-10-22 15:11 by caesar.

"they were not a band to really take all that seriously anymore"

Yeah, but "seriously" enough to spend hours posting about...

I seem to have gotten under the skin of some of my liberal "friends" (to use J. Biden's lingo). I have invoked politics because MJ shows political sympathies while acting in a way that contradicts that party's socialist agenda. So, I am pointing out the hypocrisy, as it relates to the Stones. I think this is relevant.

However, I do appreciate the criticism against me to separate art and politics. It's an interesting problem. I wish the Stones were doing something for me, artistically. But all I can see is cashing in on the legend, "celebrating the legacy" [stonesnow], which is fine, but don't feed me the middle class is victim to the wealthy 1% capitalist rhetoric. That's what I'm having a problem with.

I've made my point. I'll move on. The Stones did not go out the way I would have liked. I would have liked them to inspire us once again, like "Brown Sugar", or Brussels '73 or Ladies and Gentlemen does; the list goes on. They are really the only BAND of such stature that would still have a chance to inspire. But they failed. I'll get over it. I do hope they get up there and phone it in for many more happy, healthy years to come. I'm serious. I just was hoping to be inspired by Mick and Keith again, and it's not happening. Big deal.

When I hear Brown Sugar on the radio, I listen. It's historic. In the end, beyond the issues of the day, great art stands on its own. When the Beatles went out, Paul McCartney's statement, And in the end, the love you take, is equal to the love you make" rings so true to this day that I get goosebumps just typing it. I guess the Stones weren't meant to be so mythological. But that's OK. The Show is something, and I hope all you with tix are entertained. I'd go see them if it were convenient and if dropping 1K wasn't a big deal. But it's not and it is.

Quote
caesar

Quote
WeLoveToPlayTheBlues

Quote
Justin
What's the title of your next thread?

We'll Wait And See?

I did not start this thread, altough I consider it a good one.
I am interested in the oppinions of other Stones Fans around the world.
So is my contribution nothing than an oppinion.
Oppinions are not facts. They are the basis for a discussion.
I can't see what's wrong in discussing. At least when you log into a forum,
there a few things to do there but discussing with people of similar (or opposite) interests.

Eh, it was a joke. You know, a sense of humour and all that.

Quote
WeLoveToPlayTheBlues

Quote
caesar

Quote
WeLoveToPlayTheBlues

Quote
Justin
What's the title of your next thread?

We'll Wait And See?

I did not start this thread, altough I consider it a good one.
I am interested in the oppinions of other Stones Fans around the world.
So is my contribution nothing than an oppinion.
Oppinions are not facts. They are the basis for a discussion.
I can't see what's wrong in discussing. At least when you log into a forum,
there a few things to do there but discussing with people of similar (or opposite) interests.

Eh, it was a joke. You know, a sense of humour and all that.

No funny business allowed on this board. Sorry. Only serious messages about how The Stones are ruining your life are allowed at this time. Thank you for your cooperation.

Quote
GumbootCloggeroo

Quote
WeLoveToPlayTheBlues

Quote
caesar

Quote
WeLoveToPlayTheBlues

Quote
Justin
What's the title of your next thread?

We'll Wait And See?

I did not start this thread, altough I consider it a good one.
I am interested in the oppinions of other Stones Fans around the world.
So is my contribution nothing than an oppinion.
Oppinions are not facts. They are the basis for a discussion.
I can't see what's wrong in discussing. At least when you log into a forum,
there a few things to do there but discussing with people of similar (or opposite) interests.

Eh, it was a joke. You know, a sense of humour and all that.

No funny business allowed on this board. Sorry. Only serious messages about how The Stones are ruining your life are allowed at this time. Thank you for your cooperation.

Thanks for your efforts in bringing the true doom & gloom back into focus...
I had lost track

Quote
Justin

Quote
jamesfdouglas
Hey look, I'm getting under Justin's skin again.
Dude, you've obvioulsy been thinking about things I've posted here. Maybe it's a sign that maybe you and the more blind cheerleader fanboys are waking the f$%& up about this band that is losing fans daily and deservedly.

Please. Maybe you forgot that you and I used to be "cool" on this board because there was a time when you and I both shared the exact same ideas. That was the only reason we got along. Go back to my posts and you'll see that I stuck it to the Stones whenever I had the chance and made my feelings clear that the veil had been lifted on this fan.


March 30, 2011:

Quote
Justin
dewlover, we're coming from different sides. My statement was clear to those who see the same things as me. I've reached a point where I've outgrown my fanboy hat and I'm taking a harder stance on the quality they're putting down. As a musician myself, I know the ups and downs of being "on the ball" musically. I understand Keith's logic...less is more and all that stuff. But his blatant disregard for the music and his unwillingness to admit his own physical limitations does not sit well with me--ESPECIALLY when I shell $400 a seat.

We see different things. You see your favorite band playing those songs and won't notice that Keith isn't giving it his all or Ronnie is slacking off...or that version of "Sympathy For The Devil" was stale as hell. Hell, if I'm at a show...I'd have a good time too. But it's hard to embrace the fact that I'm attending these shows simply for the spectacle and the company and no more for the content--the music. It takes a secondary position.

What the Stones would bring to the table in a new tour is nothing we haven't seen before: Huge-ass stage (with accompanying B-stage, gigantic screen and enough lights to rival the Vegas strip), warhorses, Keith playing even less and less rhythm, Charlie steady as a rock, Ronnie picking up the slack for Keith thereby compromising the role he was hired to do (support and complement Keith---not FILL IN for Keith) and Chuck laying down a foundation underneath the guitars to fill in for the missing rhythm playing.

I'm not even sure what we're arguing anymore...what they COULD do, what they WILL do or what they MIGHT do?? I'm talking to the whole package...the tour approach (arenas/stadiums/clubs) and quality of performances. The latter being the biggest issue--which I assumed EVERYONE on this board would be most concerned about--- not if they did stadium shows. Damn, I wouldn't care if they did stadium shows forever if only they played those songs DAMN well. But they don't--not to my ears---or wallet.

The only difference between you and I, James: I moved on from the anger and bitterness...you did not. When the "veil" was lifted I realized that the Stones weren't a band I could compare to any other working band, they were not a band to really take all that seriously anymore. These were dudes in their fecking SIXTIES. Why the hell was I giving them the same standards as The Black Keys or Ryan Adams...bands that were 30 or 40 years younger than them...bands in a completely different point in their careers?? It made no sense. I stopped taking them seriously as a band and simply treated them for what they were/are: a group of basically retired dudes who play their old music. They're not creating art, they're not advancing music or challenging their audience; and at this point in their career they don't have to anymore. They have already given me everything I needed as a fan. I seriously do not need one more thing from the Stones--I have reached full capacity. "Doom and Gloom" was pretty cool. Am I desperate (or curious) for a full new album? Hell no. Factor in my other loves for other bands/artists (some of them eclipsing my love for the Stones), the Stones' BS stopped bothering me. Eventually, I found the bitterness to be counterproductive and a waste of time...you on the other hand are still singing the same tune. If you really want to accept "reality"...then move the f*ck on already. I am very comfortable with my fandom today because I can see both sides now. I'm not on any extreme side of the spectrum--but right in the middle. High ticket prices suck balls. But that's the corner they've painted themselves in for decades and it was a long time coming. In the end, $800 tickets has nothing to do with the actual music. And wasn't it all about the music?

Should I expect a response from you? No way. It's not your style to really engage in a discussion. But don't say I didn't explain myself.

You did explain yourself Justin. And you do have a point about the bitterness. I was right where you were around 2002 as well, all the way up to 2007. In fact by 2009 I'd pretty much stopped listening to the Stones and stopped posting here for a long time. My former collabroator/bandmate (and Captain Blind Stones Fanboy - 22 years my senior) would gush like a girl over his over-priced Ya-Ya's re-release, singles boxset and all of that recyled nonsense that's only meant to milk fools like him. I'd just smile, nod my head - "that's nice Pops" but thinking think "woo, he's got cash to burn", and that was it. I'd acccepted that The Stones were pretty much 'done' as well.

Then the Exile re-release came with new toplines from Jagger, and Mick Taylor was brought back in to record on it.

While not up to it's 1972 counterparts standard, PMS and Following the River were a HELL of a surprise, and went against my expectations in a good way. Hearing Plundered My Soul for the first time sent a ripple through me - a WTF moment - "Could it be possible that we actually get something GOOD from The Stones again???". The following two years were extremely bipolar.

* Exile bonus tracks - AWESOME compared to anything released in Vegas era. Mick did a wonderful job. But... Keith shat the bed by only playing 3 notes on one song, not knowing about Taylor = out of touch with his own #$%&ing band.

* Ladies and Gentlemen on DVD - FINALLY!!! I'm very happy.

* The Jimmy Fallon Hype - The band not playing live on the show... why? Thoughts of the 2007 ABB leg came to mind; and the conclusion; Keith admitting to not having played his guitar = wow, they really are finished. What Mick did with the tracks is probably the only way to achieve "new" Stones music; very sad. No tour then - oh well, cash saved, right?

* Keith Richard's book 'Life', aka "I Hate Mick Jagger and You Should Too". Going from pitying the man to pure disgust at him. All respect lost for this poser douchebag. Hero falls... and he can't get up. What the HELL have I exaclty been a fan of for all of these years??? HUGE wake-up call and what I thought was the final straw for me.

* Some Girls Live In Texas. Damn you Stones - this is even better than Ladies and Gents!!!

* Brussels released (and others coming) - I'm in shock and full of glee

* Some Girls bonus tracks - more Jagger-finished stuff. I was underwhelmed, but didn't find it offensively bad. Meh.

* the hype winds up for 50th anniversary. Common sense makes me freeze with caution. They're not going to try and make a new album are they? They obviously can't play live anymore as long as Keith Richards is there, Chuck and Ronnie can only turd-polish so much. They wouldn't tour - they're a bit out-of touch, it's still a recession, and judging by past actions they'd try to put on shows that would be 500-800 a ticket. They would't dare do that.

* Grrr is announced, Crossfre Hurricaine, the '50' book, etc. I'd expected as much. No thanks, I'll pass. Seen it, read it, done it 10 years ago for the 40th - what have they done since then? One crappy album and a Mega-Vegas-Tour. 50 years my ass.

* Doom and Gloom is released. Horrible bullshit song. Then the fanboys here start praising it. Pfff... this is not music. It's not a song. Hearing that 4-minute run of bullshit after the work Mick had done on Exile... it was disappointing as Vooddoo Lounge was coming off of Wandering Spirit.

* The 2012 concert ticket fiasco.... FINALLY other are starting to wake up.

Yes, Justin, I haven't let go of my bitterness; you are correct. SCREW The Stones. Like you I'm a musician, and like you, I love and appreciate MANY artists out there. We listen to music differently then non-musicians; that's a proven fact. So while we're on the same page that way, we differ in how we express it; again very true.

The difference between you and I though, I would never police you or anyone else here on how they post (with exception to the eternally-irritating Watchman/Stonescrow/MightyRolling). I hear "you're predictable james, same song all the time, getting tired of it". At that point it stops being about the subject at hand, and becomes something between you and I. By doing that you're putting yourself in my sights, and not in a good way. By doing that you're becoming a whiner yourself; if you expect me to lay off of my opinions just because you want me to... sorry pal. I don't work that way.

[thepowergoats.com]

"But one thing you can say: Beatles went out on top."


The Beatles went out with a lot of music still inside of them. Even if you believe The Stones have overstayed their welcome I would rather have that than a band that understays their welcome.

Quote
FrankM
"But one thing you can say: Beatles went out on top."


The Beatles went out with a lot of music still inside of them. Even if you believe The Stones have overstayed their welcome I would rather have that than a band that understays their welcome.

But think of it in the context of the times. Rock as a commercial medium was only 15 years old and the Beatles had been a phenomenon for half that time. Besides, the concept of 30-year-old rock stars in those days was as ludicrous as the idea of 70-year-old rock stars is today.

For The Beatles, business turned bad, relationships went south, and it's not their fault they could no longer stand being in one another's company even to record music.

Quote
stonesnow

Quote
Witness
I wonder if they have arrived at a stage of life when chasing women or the booze will have lost some of its relative charms to them. Then, possibly and most hopefully, being musically creative together and individually, might continue to contain an act of passion for them. When available, we all want and seek passion. If they would notice a revived interest from the world in new recorded songs of theirs, «Doom And Gloom» as an indication, they might be inspired to go on making, recording and releasing songs. They might have become better in cooperation in a newfound or rather refound understanding from the past, and the making of music might greatly profit from it. In that case, they might continue to exist as a band as well as individually be parts of projects outside the band (like Superheavy).

The future of the band then would most certainly, sooner or later, involve the end of large scale touring. However, they might invite individuals to take part as audience to closed concerts from time to time and record, film and release the outcome as live music. Thereby, be able to go on to be inspired by the playing live that is so vital to them.

If this might happen, there will not be a declared end, and not in 2013. Instead the end will be later on when it is all over. Naturally all over, that is.

Wish thinking? Yes, of course.
But impossible?

"The passions of old men end in impotence."

----Alexis de Tocqueville

"The passions of old blues men are transformed into moving blues.

The passions of old rockers can be transformed into whatever musical vein their imagination might lead them to, if they only really try."
---- Witness



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2012-10-22 23:10 by Witness.

It would be really a shame if the Stones would be remembered as "The band that screwed their fans with their last concerts" and sold out to the filthy rich ...

I'm still hoping that they'll do a tour next year with resonable prices - if not, then that's the way they'll go down in history.

The Rolling Stones...= "Controversy".

They started it from day 1.
Good and Bad through the years,They've never been without.
"They" will never end!

Quote
jamesfdouglas
* Exile bonus tracks - AWESOME compared to anything released in Vegas era. Mick did a wonderful job. But... Keith shat the bed by only playing 3 notes on one song, not knowing about Taylor = out of touch with his own #$%&ing band.

* Ladies and Gentlemen on DVD - FINALLY!!! I'm very happy.


* Some Girls Live In Texas. Damn you Stones - this is even better than Ladies and Gents!!!

* Brussels released (and others coming) - I'm in shock and full of glee

Thanks for your thoughts. Always good to be reminded that we all still have things we enjoy with the band, even on the flip side of our "tough love." Glad to see you enjoyed those releases. Those were a great run of releases.

All this was never about trying to get anyone to change their opinion on any one matter. The issue was that you have already made your point several times on many threads throughout the board for a very long time. It's a relatively small group of true regulars on this board so we all pretty much know where each of us stands with the band. Other people (like myself) share your views but they don't spend their entire time here on the board repeating themselves or mocking others for not agreeing with them word for word. For a while, I felt the same way about your posts as I did of Watchman or superevvy...just the same stuff over and over. You came here to post the same type of "whiney" posts, so I felt you deserved to be met with the exact type of whiney posts in return. Tit for tat, as they say.

But as you said, we express ourselves differently...so I won't belabor the issue anymore. I'll stop focusing on your posts and move on. I know how you feel and you know how I feel so I hope there's no need to rehash this in the future or undermine each other's posts any further. Onwards and upwards! No hard feelings.

i'll focus on jimmygoat's posts if it'll help balance things any. always the team-player....