When the Stones radically redesigned Love in Vain, it still belonged to Robert Johnson (or Payne, or Trad, if you don't want to pay royalties. At any rate, it didn't become Jagger/Richards). When Mick Taylor fleshed it out with a glorious original solo, it didn't become Taylor/Jagger/Richards/Johnson.

I'd guess that Nanker Phelge should indicate that nobody brought a song, however sketchy, into the studio - the thing was essentially developed on the spot. But if somebody came along with a basic Paint It Black, in a slower tempo and with different instrumentation, and it then got beaten into a very different shape in the studio, the credits officially stay with the original writer(s), unless they are feeling generous - and Mick and Keith are famous for their meanness in this area. I think there are probably later songs where the "inspiration" means that they pinched what should have been someone else's credit - but PIB is probably not a candidate for Nanker Phelge.

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Green Lady
When the Stones radically redesigned Love in Vain, it still belonged to Robert Johnson (or Payne, or Trad, if you don't want to pay royalties. At any rate, it didn't become Jagger/Richards). When Mick Taylor fleshed it out with a glorious original solo, it didn't become Taylor/Jagger/Richards/Johnson.

I'd guess that Nanker Phelge should indicate that nobody brought a song, however sketchy, into the studio - the thing was essentially developed on the spot. But if somebody came along with a basic Paint It Black, in a slower tempo and with different instrumentation, and it then got beaten into a very different shape in the studio, the credits officially stay with the original writer(s), unless they are feeling generous - and Mick and Keith are famous for their meanness in this area. I think there are probably later songs where the "inspiration" means that they pinched what should have been someone else's credit - but PIB is probably not a candidate for Nanker Phelge.

That's not correct. It was Keith who played the solo on Let It Bleed, but they credited it (by mistake) to all band members...

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and Mick and Keith are famous for their meanness in this area.

Yep.

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GravityBoy

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and Mick and Keith are famous for their meanness in this area.

Yep.

How many times have people actually complained, compared to the amount of songs they have written?

If one should complain, it should be about the exclusive song writing-team of Mick and Keith, which is hard to break into, imo.

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DandelionPowderman

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Green Lady
When the Stones radically redesigned Love in Vain, it still belonged to Robert Johnson (or Payne, or Trad, if you don't want to pay royalties. At any rate, it didn't become Jagger/Richards). When Mick Taylor fleshed it out with a glorious original solo, it didn't become Taylor/Jagger/Richards/Johnson.

I'd guess that Nanker Phelge should indicate that nobody brought a song, however sketchy, into the studio - the thing was essentially developed on the spot. But if somebody came along with a basic Paint It Black, in a slower tempo and with different instrumentation, and it then got beaten into a very different shape in the studio, the credits officially stay with the original writer(s), unless they are feeling generous - and Mick and Keith are famous for their meanness in this area. I think there are probably later songs where the "inspiration" means that they pinched what should have been someone else's credit - but PIB is probably not a candidate for Nanker Phelge.

That's not correct. It was Keith who played the solo on Let It Bleed, but they credited it (by mistake) to all band members...

Oops, you're right of course - but it doesn't affect the argument: rearranging somebody else's original or adding a great solo doesn't give you a writing credit. In the classical world, some concertos will have a place for the performer to put in their own cadenza (trans: flashy original solo) - but it's still "by Beethoven".

It's a grey area.

It someone else sitting with Beethoven came up with the the French Horn part for Beethovens 5th Symphony which he was in the process of creating it then perhaps they should have got a credit.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2012-10-26 12:54 by GravityBoy.

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Green Lady

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DandelionPowderman

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Green Lady
When the Stones radically redesigned Love in Vain, it still belonged to Robert Johnson (or Payne, or Trad, if you don't want to pay royalties. At any rate, it didn't become Jagger/Richards). When Mick Taylor fleshed it out with a glorious original solo, it didn't become Taylor/Jagger/Richards/Johnson.

I'd guess that Nanker Phelge should indicate that nobody brought a song, however sketchy, into the studio - the thing was essentially developed on the spot. But if somebody came along with a basic Paint It Black, in a slower tempo and with different instrumentation, and it then got beaten into a very different shape in the studio, the credits officially stay with the original writer(s), unless they are feeling generous - and Mick and Keith are famous for their meanness in this area. I think there are probably later songs where the "inspiration" means that they pinched what should have been someone else's credit - but PIB is probably not a candidate for Nanker Phelge.

That's not correct. It was Keith who played the solo on Let It Bleed, but they credited it (by mistake) to all band members...

Oops, you're right of course - but it doesn't affect the argument: rearranging somebody else's original or adding a great solo doesn't give you a writing credit. In the classical world, some concertos will have a place for the performer to put in their own cadenza (trans: flashy original solo) - but it's still "by Beethoven".

Yep, that's what I've been saying

The song will still be there, whether that cadenza is played or not. It might be better, it might be worse - but it's got nothing to do with song writing, it's got something to do with instrumentation.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2012-10-26 13:18 by DandelionPowderman.

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GravityBoy
I'm not having it.

When Mick comes in with a half baked ditty that gets gloriously fleshed out by Mick Taylor (quite a few times) then I think it's a bit mean to deny a credit.

I always felt that the name(s) that appear as the legal song writer for that song should in fact be the one(s) who actually wrote the structure of the song as has been talked about in this thread and others.

So given that, why was Mick Taylor not given credit for Sway? And why was Keith given a credit?

Why did Keith receive credit on Yesterday's Papers, SFTD, Brown Sugar, Moonlight Mile and a few others? We keep preaching here that ONLY the person (who ever that is) that wrote the words, chords, melody and what ever else (legally) is to have their name on that song, right?

So then you say, well that's different, Keith's name has to appear, something about a partnership. Even though Taylor/Jones/Wyman actually did write some piece of these 6 or 7 songs we always talk about, the rules change.

We all know John Lennon had nothing to due with Yesterday, but there is his name.

But we can look at Led Zeppelin and the Page/Plant partnership, but then we notice that John Paul Jones name appears on many songs with them. Wow Zeppelin is honest, but wait a minute, didn't they say they wrote a bunch of the early songs on Zep 1 and II when we all know that they didn't.

Kind of strange how this all works

On songwriting credit The Doors was the most "democratic" (famous)group.Only in The Soft Parade and Morrison Hotel they have separated credits(and only because of the song "Tell All The People" written by Robby Krieger on The Soft Parade which Morrison does not want to be associated because of the lyric "follow me down" ). And in Peace Frog, for example, from Morrison Hotel, Morrison write the lyrics and Krieger the song and so was credited by "Krieger/Morrison".

from what I understand Mick Taylor brought quite a few numbers in well on the way to being finished and as stated above fleshed out some of the Glimmer Twins material and the only credit he ever got was Ventilator Blues? He must have brought that in completely done!! But Taylor was only 19 when he joined the band and seems to be a pretty non-aggressive kind of guy anyway.....

Well yeah, but who played sax on 'Everything's Turning To Gold"?
He made that song live through the unreleased stage...

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2000 LYFH

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GravityBoy
I'm not having it.

When Mick comes in with a half baked ditty that gets gloriously fleshed out by Mick Taylor (quite a few times) then I think it's a bit mean to deny a credit.

I always felt that the name(s) that appear as the legal song writer for that song should in fact be the one(s) who actually wrote the structure of the song as has been talked about in this thread and others.

So given that, why was Mick Taylor not given credit for Sway? And why was Keith given a credit?

Why did Keith receive credit on Yesterday's Papers, SFTD, Brown Sugar, Moonlight Mile and a few others? We keep preaching here that ONLY the person (who ever that is) that wrote the words, chords, melody and what ever else (legally) is to have their name on that song, right?

So then you say, well that's different, Keith's name has to appear, something about a partnership. Even though Taylor/Jones/Wyman actually did write some piece of these 6 or 7 songs we always talk about, the rules change.

We all know John Lennon had nothing to due with Yesterday, but there is his name.

But we can look at Led Zeppelin and the Page/Plant partnership, but then we notice that John Paul Jones name appears on many songs with them. Wow Zeppelin is honest, but wait a minute, didn't they say they wrote a bunch of the early songs on Zep 1 and II when we all know that they didn't.

Kind of strange how this all works

Business.

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2000 LYFH

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GravityBoy
I'm not having it.

When Mick comes in with a half baked ditty that gets gloriously fleshed out by Mick Taylor (quite a few times) then I think it's a bit mean to deny a credit.

I always felt that the name(s) that appear as the legal song writer for that song should in fact be the one(s) who actually wrote the structure of the song as has been talked about in this thread and others.

So given that, why was Mick Taylor not given credit for Sway? And why was Keith given a credit?

Why did Keith receive credit on Yesterday's Papers, SFTD, Brown Sugar, Moonlight Mile and a few others? We keep preaching here that ONLY the person (who ever that is) that wrote the words, chords, melody and what ever else (legally) is to have their name on that song, right?

So then you say, well that's different, Keith's name has to appear, something about a partnership. Even though Taylor/Jones/Wyman actually did write some piece of these 6 or 7 songs we always talk about, the rules change.

We all know John Lennon had nothing to due with Yesterday, but there is his name.

But we can look at Led Zeppelin and the Page/Plant partnership, but then we notice that John Paul Jones name appears on many songs with them. Wow Zeppelin is honest, but wait a minute, didn't they say they wrote a bunch of the early songs on Zep 1 and II when we all know that they didn't.

Kind of strange how this all works

Keith probably wrote the chorus, which he sings on.

I´ve never heard Taylor claim he wrote this song - do you have sources for that - would be an interesting read...

This is what Taylor said back in the day:

"I added my solo to Sway, but it's very much Mick's song. I don't think Keith's on it. It had a great, loose feel. Mick played rhythm guitar on that. He's a great rhythm player. My theory is he has a natural feel and that's also why he's such a great dancer".
- Mick Taylor, 2011

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DandelionPowderman

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2000 LYFH

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GravityBoy
I'm not having it.

When Mick comes in with a half baked ditty that gets gloriously fleshed out by Mick Taylor (quite a few times) then I think it's a bit mean to deny a credit.

I always felt that the name(s) that appear as the legal song writer for that song should in fact be the one(s) who actually wrote the structure of the song as has been talked about in this thread and others.

So given that, why was Mick Taylor not given credit for Sway? And why was Keith given a credit?

Why did Keith receive credit on Yesterday's Papers, SFTD, Brown Sugar, Moonlight Mile and a few others? We keep preaching here that ONLY the person (who ever that is) that wrote the words, chords, melody and what ever else (legally) is to have their name on that song, right?

So then you say, well that's different, Keith's name has to appear, something about a partnership. Even though Taylor/Jones/Wyman actually did write some piece of these 6 or 7 songs we always talk about, the rules change.

We all know John Lennon had nothing to due with Yesterday, but there is his name.

But we can look at Led Zeppelin and the Page/Plant partnership, but then we notice that John Paul Jones name appears on many songs with them. Wow Zeppelin is honest, but wait a minute, didn't they say they wrote a bunch of the early songs on Zep 1 and II when we all know that they didn't.

Kind of strange how this all works

Keith probably wrote the chorus, which he sings on.

I´ve never heard Taylor claim he wrote this song - do you have sources for that - would be an interesting read...

This is what Taylor said back in the day:

"I added my solo to Sway, but it's very much Mick's song. I don't think Keith's on it. It had a great, loose feel. Mick played rhythm guitar on that. He's a great rhythm player. My theory is he has a natural feel and that's also why he's such a great dancer".
- Mick Taylor, 2011

GW: Is there a Rolling Stones song you’re most proud of or that you feel best represents you?

MT: Well, first of all, I like a lot of Stones songs – I like “Jumping Jack Flash” and “Street Fighting Man,” all for different reasons. But as far as the ones I played on, I like “Sway” -- and “Moonlight Mile” because I sort of had a hand in co-writing that, in a way. Or at least I wrote the riff the string part is based on.

[www.guitarworld.com]


To repeat the point I was trying to make above - the person(s) who actually write a portion of the song, is the persons(s) that should be included in the credits to the publishing company (and who ever else is involved), do you agree?

If you do agree, then why does Keith's name appear on Mick's songs and why does Mick's name appear on Keith's songs?

To repeat from above - So then you say, well that's different, Keith's name has to appear, something about a partnership. Even though Taylor/Jones/Wyman actually did write some piece of these 6 or 7 songs we always talk about, the rules change

OK I get it, the Lennon/McCartney did it this way, so Jagger/Richards will also do it the same way.

It's not like Taylor/Jones/Wyman are talking about 30 or 40 songs that are trying to worm their way into. It's only what maybe 6 or 7 total. Why did they pick those out of all the 100's they could choose from? I just don't get it.

Like "His Majesty" said, "It's Business" - OK, then why do it wrong when it's just as easy (and we could bring the moral word into the discussion) to do it right.

These were their fellow band mates...

With Yesterday's Papers keith probably didn't want credit. I know I wouldn't want credit. Time Waits for No One was orginally Keith's riff as was Moonlight Mile. Sympathy for the Devil had a lot of Keith input if not everyone's definition of songwriting, the solo adds a lot to the feel of the song and is possibly a highlight. Brown Sugar is a song that would have never sounded like Brown Sugar without Keith. No it's not written by Keith, but in a way written to sound like Keith.

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2000 LYFH

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GravityBoy
I'm not having it.

When Mick comes in with a half baked ditty that gets gloriously fleshed out by Mick Taylor (quite a few times) then I think it's a bit mean to deny a credit.

I always felt that the name(s) that appear as the legal song writer for that song should in fact be the one(s) who actually wrote the structure of the song as has been talked about in this thread and others.

So given that, why was Mick Taylor not given credit for Sway? And why was Keith given a credit?

Why did Keith receive credit on Yesterday's Papers, SFTD, Brown Sugar, Moonlight Mile and a few others? We keep preaching here that ONLY the person (who ever that is) that wrote the words, chords, melody and what ever else (legally) is to have their name on that song, right?

So then you say, well that's different, Keith's name has to appear, something about a partnership. Even though Taylor/Jones/Wyman actually did write some piece of these 6 or 7 songs we always talk about, the rules change.

We all know John Lennon had nothing to due with Yesterday, but there is his name.

But we can look at Led Zeppelin and the Page/Plant partnership, but then we notice that John Paul Jones name appears on many songs with them. Wow Zeppelin is honest, but wait a minute, didn't they say they wrote a bunch of the early songs on Zep 1 and II when we all know that they didn't.

Kind of strange how this all works