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Justin
Anybody in a band and tried to coach a drummer on the "Charlie sound?" How can it be done? Or are there any drummers here that have learned from Charlie? What's the secret?

Charlie's most prevalent stereotype is that he's as consistent as a metronome...I hear it all the time and I completely hate that comparison but....is that the only image we can use as a guide? I play guitar and I've tried and tried and consistently failed to get drummers to "get" Charlie.

Any input would be helpful.

Tell your drummer to focus on the basics - " Dont over do it, focus on the groove, keep it solid, stop pretending that youre Dave Ghrol and remember that John Bonham groove is not needed here, Bonham is not that great anyway, he´s not the right model for a greatest rock drummer, cause everybody is trying to sound like him - and in the end most rock drummers sound the same - poor Bonham wanna be´s - dont focus on your hairdo, forget yourself, - focus on the song instead."

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seitan
Tell your drummer to focus on the basics - " Dont over do it, focus on the groove, keep it solid, stop pretending that youre Dave Ghrol and remember that John Bonham groove is not needed here, Bonham is not that great anyway, he´s not the right model for a greatest rock drummer, cause everybody is trying to sound like him - and in the end most rock drummers sound the same - poor Bonham wanna be´s - dont focus on your hairdo, forget yourself, - focus on the song instead."

Funny how you could easily transpose this to guitar players too - focus on the song indeed.

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WeLoveToPlayTheBlues
It's simple - don't play the hi-hat all the way through, do either a four beat or a double beat before each snare note, keep the fills low and be consistent.

Plus - don't just pound out a 4/4 beat like so many rock drummers do. There's something in the syncopation, especially in his bass drum beats (and the rest of his playing) that makes it swing rather than just plod and thump along. That comes from his jazz background.
"White drummers don't swing - except for Charlie Watts" - Keith Richards.

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MrMonte
I am a drummer and think about this a lot. I am actually working on a piece on my blog about this very topic - will let you know. The gist of it, though, is that he is what drummers call "in the pocket." Not sure how to define it precisely, but the implication is that unlike a Carl Palmer, Charlie's drumming isn't about technique, it's about being in tune with the groove of a song and sustaining - and pushing forward - the groove. That's why his fills are so nominal - they could distract from the groove of the music.

I've heard the "metronome" thing but frankly, I don't think that's precise. He's NOT like a metronome - he's locked into Keith though, and sways and pulls and pushes along with his rhythm guitarist.

Another thing he does is stay slightly ahead of the beat on the snare hits (2 and 4 in standard 4/4 time). This gives the Stones that "get up and go" edge that helps to differentiate their sound as Keith often plays off it - it's like giving him a lift. A great example of this to listen to is the studio version of Respectable. Listen closely and you'll hear it right away.

The dropping of the high hat when he hits the snare I agree can be overdone, but it really speaks to what gives the Stones their sound since the 70s. If you listen, they are as much a swing band as a rock and roll band. This contributes to that sound because of the way Keith and Daryll "fill in" the overall sound. If you hit on all traditional eight notes, as the vast majority of drummers do, it's more of a straight ahead rock sound. If you don't, it "opens up" the space and allows for the more swingy sound.

If I were advising a young drummer, it would be: feel the music, don't try to overwhelm it, but be a part of it. Drop back a bit - adding gaps, avoiding too many fills, all that gives a spacier sound and let's a groove develop.

A fascinating topic ot me and I'm glad to see it discussed.

Good points. He makes it swing and supports the song rather than try to show off with technically fancy fills, etc. Charlie knows that he's in a supportive role, not the guy in the spotlight. While producing one of the Stones albums, Don Was commented that he was playing bass with the band on one of the tracks and was trying to figure out how to lock in with Charlie, as he (Don) kept getting lost. Then he realized that Charlie was focusing on Mick's vocals and tailoring his playing to emphasize the lyrics and Mick's vocal phrasing, which is a unique way for drummers to go. Keith has often said that Charlie takes a lot of his cues for fills, bass drum kicks and such by watching Mick's body language besides locking in with Keith and hitting the snare just that hair ahead of the beat that you mention. Plus there's that "Factor X" that makes it swing, coming from Charlie's jazz background. It's all hard to describe technically. It's more about feel and groove than technique.

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Justin

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Mel Belli
I wouldn't say Charlie plays ahead of the beat; in fact, I'd say the opposite.

There it is again...conflicting arguemnts about ahead/behind the beat. Interesting. I'm not sure what to believe. Can we try to figure this out once and for all?...is Charlie in front or behind the beat?

I think he does both. He knows when to hit that hair ahead or that hair behind. It both pushes and pulls the beat in a way that makes it swing rather than just thump along.

well, in my mind the best example of how we provides propulsion to the guitars in particular by being slightly ahead of the beat is, as I mentioned, Respectable, studio version. I don't need to post a link to that, right? Is there anyone here that actually needs a link to respectable??


The issue of ahead/behind is a fascinating one and it gets to an earlier point that has been discussed - is Charlie a "metronome?" No he is not. That's not what Charlie is about. What he's about is the feel for the music. I truly believe - and if I recall Keith alluded to this as well, in his book - that Charlie is the foundation for the whole Stones sound - it's all built on Charlie, even if it's defined by Keith.

Ponder this: think about how the Stones sound has evolved from the aggressive rock propulsion of the early 70s (just listen to Brussels for example), to the almost swinging, looser sound of the past few tours. A lot of that, sure is age, and adapting an approach that lets them survive the post-1988 megatours. In that context, listen to how Charlie has evolved. The jazz side - particularly swing jazz - has taken over a much larger role in his approach to his drumming. That's created the groove that the rest of the band fill. Importantly, that's pretty much ALL DARYLL KNOWS, at least in terms of actual experience. The addition of Daryll, with his Miles Davis influence and all, is actually a big contributor to this evolution. He and Charlie have created a very different groove than was the case with Charlie and Bill. It has its pluses and minuses.

But my point is this: to understand the evolution of Charlie, the evolution of the Stones sound as a whole - and Charlie's role in that evolution - must be considered to give the proper context.

Gotta run - more later. Keep up the interesting discussion. I love this topic.

Charlie on I Want To Be Loved is quite another drummer to me.
I love his role.

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Duane in Houston
If I had to put it in a word I would call it "jazz". Plain and simple. Even Charlie calls his playing style "jazz" not "rock". In this video of a Pro playing the drum part of "you Can't Always Get What You Want" you can distinctly hear the jazziness of it. It's not even close to being "rock" drumming :

Interesting but it must be noted that Charlie did not play on the studio version of YCAGWYW - Jimmy Miller did. But there are many fine examples of Charlie playing this song live. Keen ears can also hear a difference on other tracks Charlie did not play on, like Dice or IORR. However, there's enough Keith groove to maintain a very Stonesey sound.

Others have covered it well esp. MrMonte in that Charlie is a jazz drummer in a rock band. If you like Charlie's drumming, you like his off-beat fills and the drive of his anticipating the beat. This is music lingo but basically means if you have a steady pattern, Charlie is on the leading edge of that, whereas Ringo to some extent and esp. Bonham (who was also a jazz drummer in his own right) played on the tail end of the beat. In Bonham's case this gave LedZep their heavy, dramatic sound. Bonham did not anticipate the beat, but he did have some serious off-the-beat jazz fill chops. Actually, Bonham did jazz session work before LedZep, but the jazz cats thought he was too heavy handed and loud. So LedZep was a perfect fit for him.

I imagine Ringo was also influenced by the jazz drummers, but he is more of an English skiffle player whereas Charlie is way more astute with jazz drumming language. His off-beat hihats and cymbal work is so jazz. This video goes to the extreme but this is where Charlie came from:



Jazz drummers always have the standard beat going on in their head, but they play around, not on, that beat. That is why jazz drumming is cool.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2012-03-10 16:25 by paulm.

I do want to emphasize, though, that Charlie is not "just" a jazz drummer in a rock and roll band; nor is Charlie's style "jazz, pure and simple." Take a look at that beautiful Monkey Man video posted above. I gotta run and clean the house because the wife is breathing down my back, but I want to elaborate on that point a little more and will do so when I get the opportunity.

One note though: take a careful listen to Neighbors on Hampton (or Hampton era) and then on Live Licks. The whole Stones presentation is night and day different. One straight ahead rocker, one a happy, swinging sing along. Focus on the evolution of the Stones' sound, and then the mystery of Charlie starts to unfold...

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seitan
Bonham is not that great anyway[/i]

ridiculous.

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stonesdan60
"White drummers don't swing - except for Charlie Watts" - Keith Richards.

ridiculous.

It's funny that you guys talk about Charlie being a jazz drummer when really, he isn't THAT great of a jazz drummer. He's decent. But he's nothing special. When you think of iconic jazz drummers throughout history, Charlie is an amateur compared to the giants.

It's called soul. Not many people have it-drwatts

of course it is. But Keith says a LOT that is just ridiculous.

I think my favorite line in Life is after he crows about how poorly Mick's solo stuff did, and how his solo stuff didn't sell great but showed his integrity and everyone loved it, but Mick just realized he needed the stones, blah blah blah -- and then he says, "but I'm not gloating!"

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MrMonte
I think my favorite line in Life is after he crows about how poorly Mick's solo stuff did, and how his solo stuff didn't sell great but showed his integrity and everyone loved it, but Mick just realized he needed the stones, blah blah blah -- and then he says, "but I'm not gloating!"

How modest of him - when in fact what he said was perfectly true - in this case, it would have been just fine for Keef to gloat - he was right. Why not gloat, laugh and piss on those Jagger albums, they were crappy albums. No-one can honestly say that Let´s Work was a masterpiece, no-one. It's true that Keef and Mick need The Stones - at least Talk Is Cheap was a Stones like rock album. Micks solo albums are crap, there´s no way to deny that.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2012-03-10 17:42 by seitan.

Seitan, how does it feel to be comletely ignored!?? Too funny how you tried to slip that anti-Mick garbage in there and no one noticed!! And that crap about Bonham not being a great drummer...another pearl of wisdom. I guess folks here are just getting used to sifting through the crap and moving on to the meat.

seitan

Micks solo albums are crap, there´s no way to deny that.


MMMmmmm..... Wandering Spirit anyone? I really like it anyway.....

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mickschix
Seitan, how does it feel to be comletely ignored!?? Too funny how you tried to slip that anti-Mick garbage in there and no one noticed!! And that crap about Bonham not being a great drummer...another pearl of wisdom. I guess folks here are just getting used to sifting through the crap and moving on to the meat.

actually, you didnt ignore me - thanks for the post - and i really dont give a damn if you do. Bonham being great or not - who cares, really..i dont. It wasnt my point really in the first place. My point was this: Most drummers try to copy Bonham - like it or not - that´s rather sad, cause most drummers end up sounding the same. Whatever happened to drummers trying to be unique, hmm ? Try Charlie´s style for a change ?

As for, wandering spirit - that´s Mick´s best solo album, indeed.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2012-03-10 18:19 by seitan.

Actually you DO care, Seitan. It must have killed you to acknowledge the greatness of Wandering Spirit. I admit to not loving " Let's Work" but the rest of his solo cds are quite wonderful, IMO. If Bonham were alive I bet he'd be flattered that so many young drummers copied his style. Maybe it's difficult to be a truly unique drummer. You have to have someone to model your style after, at least as a starting point I'd think. What do you drummers think? Would you start out trying to emulate a Bonham, or a Watts or a Moon?

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mickschix
Actually you DO care, Seitan. It must have killed you to acknowledge the greatness of Wandering Spirit. I admit to not loving " Let's Work" but the rest of his solo cds are quite wonderful, IMO. If Bonham were alive I bet he'd be flattered that so many young drummers copied his style. Maybe it's difficult to be a truly unique drummer. You have to have someone to model your style after, at least as a starting point I'd think. What do you drummers think? Would you start out trying to emulate a Bonham, or a Watts or a Moon?

I wouldnt call " Wandering Spirit" Great - its not great, but yes, it´s the only one from Micks solo albums that I can listen to.

Youre right - If Bonham were alive I bet he'd be flattered that so many young drummers copied his style. Indeed, that´s true - He would - but the question was: How do you explain Charlie´s technique to drummers ?

- The first thing is to forget Bonham -

- why is it that every damn young rock drummer goes for Bonham, - isnt that a cliche already ? When history of popular music is full of unique drummers, who have their very own style: John Densmore, Rat Scabies, Mo Tucker, Charlie Watts, Keith Moon, etc. Charlie and Bonham are very different - so forget Bonham. And most rock drummers end up sounding the same when they all go for that "Bonham school of rock drumming" - that style has become stereotype of a rock drummer, and that´s sad in my opinion, cause I truly enjoy versitile music. There´s other great ways of playing drums too and I feel that Bonham is bit overrated in this sense.

Would I start out trying to emulate a Bonham - no, Why should I want to do what everybody else is trying to do - youre a musician - does this mean that youre a member of a herd of animals ?
Would I start out trying to emulate Charlie Watts - well, maybe. If I did - the first thing I would learn is the basics, I would end up keeping it simple at first and that´s a great way to start learning.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2012-03-10 18:56 by seitan.

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gwen

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seitan
Tell your drummer to focus on the basics - " Dont over do it, focus on the groove, keep it solid, stop pretending that youre Dave Ghrol and remember that John Bonham groove is not needed here, Bonham is not that great anyway, he´s not the right model for a greatest rock drummer, cause everybody is trying to sound like him - and in the end most rock drummers sound the same - poor Bonham wanna be´s - dont focus on your hairdo, forget yourself, - focus on the song instead."

Funny how you could easily transpose this to guitar players too - focus on the song indeed.

I once picked up a guitar magazine in which a number of famous guitar gods (guys like Steve Vai) were asked to name their favorite album. And one guitar god—I forget who—rather daringly (considering the context) answered: "My favorite album is the Beatles' WHITE ALBUM, because it reminds me how unimportant guitar gods really are."

seitan, are you a drummer?

and, how do you know that EVERY drummer is emulating Bonham? Did you do a survey? Is that why you dislike him, because you think that every other drummer is a Bonham wannabe? Surely there are plenty that play with the Watts school of thought. Or Ringo Starr. Or Stewart Copeland or Billy Cobham or plenty of others. You say "forget Bonham". I agree. That would be my advice for a youngster just starting out on the drums. Why do I say that? Not because Bonham sucks and everyone wants to be him. No, it's because he's really good and, most likely, you're not going to sound like him and it's going to hinder your development and confidence as a drummer.

You say "Whatever happened to drummers trying to be unique, hmm ? Try Charlie´s style for a change ?" There's nothing unique about Charlie's style. In fact, I'd say plenty of drummers in this world play in a simple style, not trying to hog the spotlight. And there are plenty of "unique" drummers in the world.

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seitan
actually, you didnt ignore me - thanks for the post

LoFL! [passing popcorn]

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stonesdan60

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WeLoveToPlayTheBlues
It's simple - don't play the hi-hat all the way through, do either a four beat or a double beat before each snare note, keep the fills low and be consistent.

Plus - don't just pound out a 4/4 beat like so many rock drummers do. There's something in the syncopation, especially in his bass drum beats (and the rest of his playing) that makes it swing rather than just plod and thump along. That comes from his jazz background.
"White drummers don't swing - except for Charlie Watts" - Keith Richards.

I know there's more to it than that. I love Charlie's late 60s/early 70s playing style. I don't care for the no hi-hat bit BUT it does work great on some things. She's So Cold is a great example - and how he does his rolls/fills. The drumming in that song is pristine Charlie of this era, the one miss hi-hat era. He pretty much peaked with that style of playing with the Steel Wheels tour. He hasn't drummed that crisp and tight since. Neither has the band.

But what you're describing, the how of his 4 on the floor playing is he doesn't always stick to it - it has a wobble and he throws in an extra beat as well as removes a beat or two. Or in the midst of it, for a chorus or a bridge or who knows, he'll suddenly go to the two beat and snare for a bit.

And the metronome thing - whatever it was he was saying about doing Bridges To Babylon with the sampling and playing along to the sample, it was perfect time, which doesn't work. There's no human element to the rythym, the bringing it up or pulling it back, no slight oddness.

You listen to Get Yer Ya-Ya's Out and that's the epitome of Charlie's style then, which for the most part starts with We Love You/TSMR and ends with Exile. Although it might be arguable I'd say that era of his playing was the most simple and best compared to how he does it now and has been since the second round of sessions for Some Girls. Then it was more about rolling and swaying and feeling; late it's more of a metronome. That is, when compared to the previous era.

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GumbootCloggeroo
It's funny that you guys talk about Charlie being a jazz drummer when really, he isn't THAT great of a jazz drummer. He's decent. But he's nothing special. When you think of iconic jazz drummers throughout history, Charlie is an amateur compared to the giants.

It's more about his feel and foundation in jazz (as opposed to rock) as applied to a rock & roll/blues band rather than about being an especially proficient pure jazz drummer.

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GumbootCloggeroo
seitan, are you a drummer?

- Yes. But nevermind that...It´s beside the point.

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GumbootCloggeroo
and, how do you know that EVERY drummer is emulating Bonham? Did you do a survey?
Is that why you dislike him, because you think that every other drummer is a Bonham wannabe?

Ok, maybe not everyone. No - I havent done any survey. But having read several magazines, books, forums, etc - but no surveys - and having taken music lessons on drums myself - and having played for years - the name Bonham still keeps coming up the surface. You cant really escape the influence of Led Zeppelin in rock history. But then again, I´m not a teenager anymore, so I´m not so sure what young kids listen to these days. But let me guess: - I think that Nirvana/Queens of Stoneage guy, - Dave Ghrol - is really good candidate for young kids just starting. Ghrol is really influenced by Bonham - I think Dave Ghrol is really someone that youngsters who are just starting out on the drums and are interested in playing rock music - they might be paying attention to Ghrol and his music.. but no, no, there´s no survey on this, It´s just my gut feeling...and if I´m right about it - then that's Bonham's influence coming through again.

I would say that Bonham is one of the most influental drummers in rock history - and it´s partly due to his image as a flamboyant rock drummer god. I could say the same thing about Jimmy Page as a guitarist too - and yes, he´s a damn fine guitarist indeed. No doubt about it. But no, that´s not why I dislike them - I just dont like Led Zeppelin that much. I dont really like their songs that much, but that´s another can of worms I guess..do I have to open that ?
Sorry, but that´s just the way I feel.

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GumbootCloggeroo
Surely there are plenty that play with the Watts school of thought. Or Ringo Starr. Or Stewart Copeland or Billy Cobham or plenty of others.

If you take lessons from a professional drummer - at some point, you will find yourself playing along to Led Zeppelin records, - we are talking about rock drumming here - unless you have already done that.
So I hope that musicians would be more open minded about experiments, improvisations and with the music they listen too. I dont have a probleam with educations, The more you learn - the more doors will be opened ...but I dont like the idea of most musicians going through the same damn doors. The probleam with music education is that - at some point the teacher is going to say: Now lets listen to the masters... " Have you heard say..."When The Levee Breaks" and it goes like this." And there you go...This is just my personal opinion without any survey. ...the probleam in music education can be that, if everybody learns to play the same damn things..your school becomes like a factory line with musicians sounding the same.

I never liked Police - but I have to admit - I truly enjoy Stewart Coplands playing...great drummer, wrong band for me... I like Clem Burke even better, - great drummer and his band - The Blondie - better songwriters than Sting.

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GumbootCloggeroo

You say "forget Bonham". I agree. That would be my advice for a youngster just starting out on the drums. Why do I say that? Not because Bonham sucks and everyone wants to be him. No, it's because he's really good and, most likely, you're not going to sound like him and it's going to hinder your development and confidence as a drummer.

Good point of view.

I happen to have the school of tought that no matter what you play - the most important member of any rock band is the songwriter. My school of tought is that "let´s try to write a really good songs first and let´s be servants of every song we do. Sometimes "less is more" etc... That´s my attitude in music. That´s why Keith Richards is my ultimate rock n roll hero - I´m still amazed by his abilty to write such powerful songs.

Now, to have confidence as a drummer - I often think that people who want to be drummer gods or guitar gods in rock bands - they are the ones with no real confidence or self esteem at all. If you know what youre doing and you know your instrument well - why do you need to flaunt it ? You dont have to proof anything by playing fast solos, etc - I truly respect Charlie for this. Rock n roll gigs are not therapy sessions for those who need to boost their own egos in spotlight. There´s sport competitions and therapy meetings for that.

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GumbootCloggeroo
You say "Whatever happened to drummers trying to be unique, hmm ? Try Charlie´s style for a change ?" There's nothing unique about Charlie's style. In fact, I'd say plenty of drummers in this world play in a simple style, not trying to hog the spotlight. And there are plenty of "unique" drummers in the world.

..and thank god for that.
Actually that Hi-Hat thing that Charlie does - I dont know any other drummer in any rock band that would do the same. Unless they are Stones cover band or something...It´s simple, but sometimes simple ideas work like a dream.



and thanks for your comments.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2012-03-10 22:31 by seitan.

I'm not a drummer, but I love SWAY because—to me—it's sloppy, including the drums. I don't think a more precise drummer like Stewart Copeland would serve that song well at all. Maybe actual drummers would disagree.

(P.S. Ringo Starr said he drums with the idea that people should be listening to the singer.)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2012-03-10 22:41 by Title5Take1.

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MrMonte
One note though: take a careful listen to Neighbors on Hampton (or Hampton era) and then on Live Licks. The whole Stones presentation is night and day different. One straight ahead rocker, one a happy, swinging sing along. Focus on the evolution of the Stones' sound, and then the mystery of Charlie starts to unfold...

The big difference is the bass: instead of Bill`s swinging basslines D.Jones is playing this horrible steady tralala bass. No swing at all. I´m sure that has an inluence on the drumming.

Great thread by the way!! Just the right time. I´m going to see Charlie with his ABCD on monday in a very small club (120 people) in Rostock/Germany and I´m very excited.

Tom

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MrMonte
I do want to emphasize, though, that Charlie is not "just" a jazz drummer in a rock and roll band; nor is Charlie's style "jazz, pure and simple." Take a look at that beautiful Monkey Man video posted above. I gotta run and clean the house because the wife is breathing down my back, but I want to elaborate on that point a little more and will do so when I get the opportunity.

One note though: take a careful listen to Neighbors on Hampton (or Hampton era) and then on Live Licks. The whole Stones presentation is night and day different. One straight ahead rocker, one a happy, swinging sing along. Focus on the evolution of the Stones' sound, and then the mystery of Charlie starts to unfold...

Great posts MrMonte; all of them. I very much agree with you. I too don't see this overly tight Charlie; the metronome thing. I think a lot of this notion comes from 81, and 78. And those were the early outdoor shows. IMO most of that comes from Charlie really just trying to anchor it all with the least amount of clutter.
But when he is loose and free to roam I still feel that he follows Jagger as much as Keith. For many years I played a side-job in a drag revue. And it was all about following the star up front. The drummers that did well in that setting were the ones who watched the singer, and listened. I often see that in Charlie. (I am just talking about live settings here).
I also love what you said about staying ahead of the beat. This is a discussion I have had at length many times. The intricacies of the 'beat' it self. That the beat is not one point only but has shadings.
Take Clude Stubblefield or Jabo Starks from the James Brown band. They are ahead; it's like they welcome the 1. They can't wait for the beat to arrive; it's a joy.
Then I hear some of these big heavy Heavy Metal drummers. They barely catch the beat as it flies by. Scratching their beer belly and "oh do I really have to? do I really have to hit that drum now?"
Exageration, yes, but I am seeing a Poison video, and between all the twirling of sticks, and confetti flying out of the snare, and bandanas, the beat was largely ignored.
IMO some of Charlie's best drumming is on Emotional Rescue.