Tell Me :
Talk
Jerry, first of all I want to say I got a little bit carried away yesterday but it wasn't against you personnaly .
Plus it was not my intention to get into politics on an agressive way ,I do know bv doesn't allow it.
I always get carried away when that subject is put on the table .
I would really appreciate if you would give me the opportunity to express my point of view and most important,why I have this point of view -on a polite and kind way ,of course .This thread is inapropriate for it .
May you send me an e-mail ?
Annie-Laure
You are sort of an IORR recluse, but long time member with thoughtful input. Good to hear from you again. Merry Christmas to you and your family.
Thanks, great post.
Man you can say that again!
Absolutely Annie-Laurie. I am happy to chat with you anytime. But be careful what you wish for!
We just might find ourselves arguing our positions person-to-person instead of on IORR. I think you are like many people I know. When the subject is Israel, emotions take over. I had no intention or desire to argue the political points with you on IORR, but I object strongly to the characterizations against people who disagree with certain Israeli government policies, as I said.
We all can get carried away. I have gotten carried away here sometimes on things far less important, so I certainly understand. Knowing you a little bit here (and having affection for you from what I know about you), your harsh words came as quite a surprise.
Do you have my e-mail address?
OK, I will e-mail you.
Good post, NWS. Along the lines of your post, there was a good column by Ross Dothaut in today's New York Times called "The Bleiver's Atheist". Many people of faith respected Hitchens. I think serious thinkers know that Hicthens' provocative challenges encouraged healthy debate and examination of belief. Hitchens was a seeker in the true sense of the word. I personally think he got it right about organized religion, but that perhaps the weaknesses of organized religion blinded him to the human potential of spirituality. That's my take anyway.
Oh, please...without getting into religious arguments here, the arrogance of anyone consigning any other human being to hell is quite astounding. Do any of us really have that kind of moral certainty about another person?
Yes, in your very tiny circular-reasoning world view. You just beautifully illustrated Hitchens' arguments against Religion. Thank you.
Well said 24FPS - Hitch was courageous, provocative and entertaining. "God is Not Great" exposed religion and all its shameful, violent corruption. Our world is a much duller place without him.
Sorry, who's been in the John since 3:16?
Hell would be spending eternity with a bunch of religious fanatics. Imagine:the kooks on the street corners, the door-knockers, the TV preachers and the suicide bombers. Golly, what a party in eternity, listening to the Jesus station instead of the Stones.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-12-19 08:09 by Angus MacBagpipe.
I just love that the mere naming of a piece of scripture is supposed to end all argument. All ideological fundamentalism - whether political, religious or of another variety - is basically the same. One is supposed to suppress the intellect and common sense and blindly accept the tenets of the creed. I respect truly spiritual people, but if someone quotes chapter and verse to me as a response to a challenge, I run. Ironically, the supposedly atheist Marxists did exactly the same thing. No matter what the actual results of their policies in the real world, they were unable to deviate from the "perfect" ideology of Marxism.
One wonders if many of these so-called "Christians" who put so much energy into deciding who is going to hell for the sin of not buying into their ideology instead put that energy into the actual teachings of their supposed Founder. You know, the whole "love thy neighbor as yourself" bit.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-12-19 08:11 by 71Tele.
Matthew 22:37-39
at least it's all black and white...I was so worried their might be shades of grey...or even colour.
That would have been so confusing.
Actually I have read it.
The idea that anybody needs "help" to find "inner peace" from religious ideologues who feel that only they have the "answer" (and everybody else is going to hell!) is quite laughable.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-12-19 08:50 by 71Tele.
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Re: OT - R.I.P. Christopher Hitchens
Posted by:
electric-duane
()
Date: December 18, 2011 12:20
I don't post here often, but thought I would considering the topic.
Christopher Hitchens' death actually hit me harder than I thought it would. Generally the deaths of celebrities go relatively unnoticed in my world (the death of the Big Man was probably the last death that kind of stunned me, though).
I loved Hitchens' intellectual honesty; a characteristic I learned to implement in my life largely due to his writings and from hearing him speak. It has - as to be expected - made parts of my life better but also more difficult. If Hitchens had a point to make (and he had many), he always had an arsenal of facts to back it up. He didn't rely on emotion, gut-feeling or faith. His arguments always contained fact-based logic and rational-thinking.
I grew up in a typical middle-American Catholic household (central Ohio) where the reaction to, for example, the pedophile scandal that erupted from within the Catholic church years ago and that has since festered into an out-of-control attempt to lie, deceive and cover up, was lukewarm, more or less. The most-repeated comment went along the lines of, "well, there's always going to be good and bad in everything and as long as I live the good and go to church for the right reasons, well everything else is just picking fly shit out of the pepper." This, coming from the complacent and silent congregation expressing outrage that more moderate Muslims weren't coming forward to denounce terrorism in Islam (the pot calling the kettle black).
For years I never concerned myself with the above. Catholicism was just a part of my life, kind of like going grocery shopping. You belonged to the organization, went to mass sometimes, sang the songs and left (in all fairness to Catholicism, though, it's basically like any other congregation of Christians, regardless of denomination). At some point in time, however, I started taking these types of things seriously and after discovering the writings of Hitchens, it became easier to step back and analyze the situation intellectually and honestly. I think I even learned more about morality from the likes of Christopher Hitchens than from any other religious institution.
And in the end, I realize Hitchens really didn't do much as all, other than convince me that honesty trumps anything, and it might even mean letting go of some things that were dear to me or that had been a part of my life from the beginning. In the end, however, I feel more comfortable with my decisions and the road I'm on because I'm not lying to myself or going along with the status-quo. Of course I don't, as many people here have stated, agree with everything he was for or against, but that's secondary to the above. In the end, you knew where he stood, you knew why and you knew his stance was based on substance and facts, which is why I even applaud him for flip-flopping some of his opinions and beliefs - he wasn't afraid to admit that he was wrong if the proof was there to convince him. That's a strong characteristic to possess and many are too proud to do so. Hitchens, no matter how arrogant he sometimes seemed, never seemed to proud to concede if it were justified.
I'll miss hearing him speak and also reading his witty and intellectually stimulating prose. The world has indeed lost one of the greatest and most honest thinkers of my lifetime.
RIP Mr. Hitchens.
Peace,
E-Duane
Christopher Hitchens' death actually hit me harder than I thought it would. Generally the deaths of celebrities go relatively unnoticed in my world (the death of the Big Man was probably the last death that kind of stunned me, though).
I loved Hitchens' intellectual honesty; a characteristic I learned to implement in my life largely due to his writings and from hearing him speak. It has - as to be expected - made parts of my life better but also more difficult. If Hitchens had a point to make (and he had many), he always had an arsenal of facts to back it up. He didn't rely on emotion, gut-feeling or faith. His arguments always contained fact-based logic and rational-thinking.
I grew up in a typical middle-American Catholic household (central Ohio) where the reaction to, for example, the pedophile scandal that erupted from within the Catholic church years ago and that has since festered into an out-of-control attempt to lie, deceive and cover up, was lukewarm, more or less. The most-repeated comment went along the lines of, "well, there's always going to be good and bad in everything and as long as I live the good and go to church for the right reasons, well everything else is just picking fly shit out of the pepper." This, coming from the complacent and silent congregation expressing outrage that more moderate Muslims weren't coming forward to denounce terrorism in Islam (the pot calling the kettle black).
For years I never concerned myself with the above. Catholicism was just a part of my life, kind of like going grocery shopping. You belonged to the organization, went to mass sometimes, sang the songs and left (in all fairness to Catholicism, though, it's basically like any other congregation of Christians, regardless of denomination). At some point in time, however, I started taking these types of things seriously and after discovering the writings of Hitchens, it became easier to step back and analyze the situation intellectually and honestly. I think I even learned more about morality from the likes of Christopher Hitchens than from any other religious institution.
And in the end, I realize Hitchens really didn't do much as all, other than convince me that honesty trumps anything, and it might even mean letting go of some things that were dear to me or that had been a part of my life from the beginning. In the end, however, I feel more comfortable with my decisions and the road I'm on because I'm not lying to myself or going along with the status-quo. Of course I don't, as many people here have stated, agree with everything he was for or against, but that's secondary to the above. In the end, you knew where he stood, you knew why and you knew his stance was based on substance and facts, which is why I even applaud him for flip-flopping some of his opinions and beliefs - he wasn't afraid to admit that he was wrong if the proof was there to convince him. That's a strong characteristic to possess and many are too proud to do so. Hitchens, no matter how arrogant he sometimes seemed, never seemed to proud to concede if it were justified.
I'll miss hearing him speak and also reading his witty and intellectually stimulating prose. The world has indeed lost one of the greatest and most honest thinkers of my lifetime.
RIP Mr. Hitchens.
Peace,
E-Duane
Re: OT - R.I.P. Christopher Hitchens
Posted by:
proudmary
()
Date: December 18, 2011 12:29
Christopher Hitchens: 'I wish I'd done more of everything'
The controversial author was a brilliant but challenging conversationalist, as Telegraph writer Mick Brown discovered earlier this year.
[www.telegraph.co.uk]
The controversial author was a brilliant but challenging conversationalist, as Telegraph writer Mick Brown discovered earlier this year.
[www.telegraph.co.uk]
Re: OT - R.I.P. Christopher Hitchens
Posted by:
SwayStones
()
Date: December 18, 2011 16:02
Quote
71Tele
I was calling attention to the need of some people to disparage those with whom they disagree with dishonest name-calling and labeling. That kind of tactic is intended to freeze discussion and avoid talking about the substance of the issue itself.
.
Jerry, first of all I want to say I got a little bit carried away yesterday but it wasn't against you personnaly .
Plus it was not my intention to get into politics on an agressive way ,I do know bv doesn't allow it.
I always get carried away when that subject is put on the table .
I would really appreciate if you would give me the opportunity to express my point of view and most important,why I have this point of view -on a polite and kind way ,of course .This thread is inapropriate for it .
May you send me an e-mail ?
Annie-Laure
Re: OT - R.I.P. Christopher Hitchens
Posted by:
The Sicilian
()
Date: December 18, 2011 18:46
Quote
electric-duane
I don't post here often, but thought I would considering the topic.
RIP Mr. Hitchens.
Peace,
E-Duane
You are sort of an IORR recluse, but long time member with thoughtful input. Good to hear from you again. Merry Christmas to you and your family.
Re: OT - R.I.P. Christopher Hitchens
Posted by:
treaclefingers
()
Date: December 18, 2011 19:10
Quote
electric-duane
I don't post here often, but thought I would considering the topic.
Christopher Hitchens' death actually hit me harder than I thought it would. Generally the deaths of celebrities go relatively unnoticed in my world (the death of the Big Man was probably the last death that kind of stunned me, though).
I loved Hitchens' intellectual honesty; a characteristic I learned to implement in my life largely due to his writings and from hearing him speak. It has - as to be expected - made parts of my life better but also more difficult. If Hitchens had a point to make (and he had many), he always had an arsenal of facts to back it up. He didn't rely on emotion, gut-feeling or faith. His arguments always contained fact-based logic and rational-thinking.
I grew up in a typical middle-American Catholic household (central Ohio) where the reaction to, for example, the pedophile scandal that erupted from within the Catholic church years ago and that has since festered into an out-of-control attempt to lie, deceive and cover up, was lukewarm, more or less. The most-repeated comment went along the lines of, "well, there's always going to be good and bad in everything and as long as I live the good and go to church for the right reasons, well everything else is just picking fly shit out of the pepper." This, coming from the complacent and silent congregation expressing outrage that more moderate Muslims weren't coming forward to denounce terrorism in Islam (the pot calling the kettle black).
For years I never concerned myself with the above. Catholicism was just a part of my life, kind of like going grocery shopping. You belonged to the organization, went to mass sometimes, sang the songs and left (in all fairness to Catholicism, though, it's basically like any other congregation of Christians, regardless of denomination). At some point in time, however, I started taking these types of things seriously and after discovering the writings of Hitchens, it became easier to step back and analyze the situation intellectually and honestly. I think I even learned more about morality from the likes of Christopher Hitchens than from any other religious institution.
And in the end, I realize Hitchens really didn't do much as all, other than convince me that honesty trumps anything, and it might even mean letting go of some things that were dear to me or that had been a part of my life from the beginning. In the end, however, I feel more comfortable with my decisions and the road I'm on because I'm not lying to myself or going along with the status-quo. Of course I don't, as many people here have stated, agree with everything he was for or against, but that's secondary to the above. In the end, you knew where he stood, you knew why and you knew his stance was based on substance and facts, which is why I even applaud him for flip-flopping some of his opinions and beliefs - he wasn't afraid to admit that he was wrong if the proof was there to convince him. That's a strong characteristic to possess and many are too proud to do so. Hitchens, no matter how arrogant he sometimes seemed, never seemed to proud to concede if it were justified.
I'll miss hearing him speak and also reading his witty and intellectually stimulating prose. The world has indeed lost one of the greatest and most honest thinkers of my lifetime.
RIP Mr. Hitchens.
Peace,
E-Duane
Thanks, great post.
Re: OT - R.I.P. Christopher Hitchens
Posted by:
deadegad
()
Date: December 18, 2011 19:15
Quote
71TeleQuote
deadegad
I remember reading George Orwell's "Politics and the English Language" for the first time and how much it resonated with what I was thinking and feeling about world events. Orwell hit it right on the head. It was incredible that someone had already articulated so very, very well my burgeoning B.S. detector.
C. Hitchens certainly studied Orwell and furthered the journalistic exposure of 'bovine scatology.' While I did not always agree with his world view, this is a significant loss.
R.I.P. Hitch. He's probably surprised right now.
True about Orwell, and Hitchens tried to go by Orwell's standards for clarity and truth-telling. Wish we had more like both of them today.
Man you can say that again!
Re: OT - R.I.P. Christopher Hitchens
Posted by:
71Tele
()
Date: December 18, 2011 20:26
Quote
SwayStonesQuote
71Tele
I was calling attention to the need of some people to disparage those with whom they disagree with dishonest name-calling and labeling. That kind of tactic is intended to freeze discussion and avoid talking about the substance of the issue itself.
.
Jerry, first of all I want to say I got a little bit carried away yesterday but it wasn't against you personnaly .
Plus it was not my intention to get into politics on an agressive way ,I do know bv doesn't allow it.
I always get carried away when that subject is put on the table .
I would really appreciate if you would give me the opportunity to express my point of view and most important,why I have this point of view -on a polite and kind way ,of course .This thread is inapropriate for it .
May you send me an e-mail ?
Annie-Laure
Absolutely Annie-Laurie. I am happy to chat with you anytime. But be careful what you wish for!
We just might find ourselves arguing our positions person-to-person instead of on IORR. I think you are like many people I know. When the subject is Israel, emotions take over. I had no intention or desire to argue the political points with you on IORR, but I object strongly to the characterizations against people who disagree with certain Israeli government policies, as I said.We all can get carried away. I have gotten carried away here sometimes on things far less important, so I certainly understand. Knowing you a little bit here (and having affection for you from what I know about you), your harsh words came as quite a surprise.
Do you have my e-mail address?
Re: OT - R.I.P. Christopher Hitchens
Posted by:
SwayStones
()
Date: December 18, 2011 20:51
No I don't .Mine isn't hidden so it's up to you .
Re: OT - R.I.P. Christopher Hitchens
Posted by:
71Tele
()
Date: December 18, 2011 20:52
Quote
SwayStones
No I don't .Mine isn't hidden so it's up to you .
OK, I will e-mail you.
Re: OT - R.I.P. Christopher Hitchens
Posted by:
Stoneage
()
Date: December 19, 2011 02:03
Good one, 2000man! I think he would have smiled a bit at that one himself. It scares me somewhat though how strong the antiintellectual movements are in The US. It's a bit sad.
Re: OT - R.I.P. Christopher Hitchens
Posted by:
seitan
()
Date: December 19, 2011 02:07
Yeah, it's hard times...Vacel Havel and Hitchens...really hard times, I read lot of Hitchens, so find this really sad..
Re: OT - R.I.P. Christopher Hitchens
Posted by:
stonesrule
()
Date: December 19, 2011 02:08
Electric Duane, your tribute to Christopher Hitchens was very special.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Re: OT - R.I.P. Christopher Hitchens
Posted by:
71Tele
()
Date: December 19, 2011 03:34
Quote
stonesrule
Electric Duane, your tribute to Christopher Hitchens was very special.
Thank you.
Re: OT - R.I.P. Christopher Hitchens
Posted by:
NWSooner
()
Date: December 19, 2011 04:07
Good Evening fellow Stones Friends, as you all know I rarely post here even though I read the boards weekly. As a Christian man I obviously diagreed with the framework of Hitchens thought, however I respected him greatly for his honesty and the passion from which he wrote. He did a series of debates with an an American Theologian Doug Wilson that was turned into an excellent Video Series called "Collision", if you haven't seen it I highly reccomend it. Anyway, Christianity Today asked Mr. Wilson about his thoughts on the passing of Mr. Hitchens and it was an excellent article so I thought I'd share the link and will anticpate reading your thoughts on it regardless of which side of the debate you reside.
Thoughts on Hitchen's Passing by Douglas Wilson
Merry Christmas my friends,
NWSooner
Thoughts on Hitchen's Passing by Douglas Wilson
Merry Christmas my friends,
NWSooner
Re: OT - R.I.P. Christopher Hitchens
Posted by:
71Tele
()
Date: December 19, 2011 05:24
Quote
NWSooner
Good Evening fellow Stones Friends, as you all know I rarely post here even though I read the boards weekly. As a Christian man I obviously diagreed with the framework of Hitchens thought, however I respected him greatly for his honesty and the passion from which he wrote. He did a series of debates with an an American Theologian Doug Wilson that was turned into an excellent Video Series called "Collision", if you haven't seen it I highly reccomend it. Anyway, Christianity Today asked Mr. Wilson about his thoughts on the passing of Mr. Hitchens and it was an excellent article so I thought I'd share the link and will anticpate reading your thoughts on it regardless of which side of the debate you reside.
Thoughts on Hitchen's Passing by Douglas Wilson
Merry Christmas my friends,
NWSooner
Good post, NWS. Along the lines of your post, there was a good column by Ross Dothaut in today's New York Times called "The Bleiver's Atheist". Many people of faith respected Hitchens. I think serious thinkers know that Hicthens' provocative challenges encouraged healthy debate and examination of belief. Hitchens was a seeker in the true sense of the word. I personally think he got it right about organized religion, but that perhaps the weaknesses of organized religion blinded him to the human potential of spirituality. That's my take anyway.
Re: OT - R.I.P. Christopher Hitchens
Posted by:
21stcenturystones
()
Date: December 19, 2011 07:10
He won't miss the pain he was in here - nothing he experienced on this earth compares to what he will experience for enternity - HELL -
Re: OT - R.I.P. Christopher Hitchens
Posted by:
71Tele
()
Date: December 19, 2011 07:13
Quote
21stcenturystones
He won't miss the pain he was in here - nothing he experienced on this earth compares to what he will experience for enternity - HELL -
Oh, please...without getting into religious arguments here, the arrogance of anyone consigning any other human being to hell is quite astounding. Do any of us really have that kind of moral certainty about another person?
Re: OT - R.I.P. Christopher Hitchens
Posted by:
21stcenturystones
()
Date: December 19, 2011 07:17
sure...he did not recognize God...therefore was probably not "born again", therefore - HELL -
Re: OT - R.I.P. Christopher Hitchens
Posted by:
21stcenturystones
()
Date: December 19, 2011 07:18
John 3:16
Re: OT - R.I.P. Christopher Hitchens
Posted by:
71Tele
()
Date: December 19, 2011 07:20
Quote
21stcenturystones
sure...he did not recognize God...therefore was probably not "born again", therefore - HELL -
Yes, in your very tiny circular-reasoning world view. You just beautifully illustrated Hitchens' arguments against Religion. Thank you.
Re: OT - R.I.P. Christopher Hitchens
Posted by:
Angus MacBagpipe
()
Date: December 19, 2011 07:53
Quote
24FPS
Tim Tebow, the Denver Quaterback, is lauded as courageous for espousing his religious views openly. What's so courageous about that? Someone like Hitch was a lot more courageous for espousing atheism, whether you believed him or not. The world does not treat atheists kindly. You probably couldn't be elected President of the United States if you didn't swear allegience to some unseen deity. Hell, Texas is trying to rub out the memory of Thomas Jefferson in its textbooks.
What was so offensive about Hitchen's view on Israel? I find it appalling in America that you can't even criticize Israel without being called anti-semitic. Why do we have to bow to some foreign country that's no more equal to us than any other foreign country? They're not the 51st state.
Well said 24FPS - Hitch was courageous, provocative and entertaining. "God is Not Great" exposed religion and all its shameful, violent corruption. Our world is a much duller place without him.
Re: OT - R.I.P. Christopher Hitchens
Posted by:
Angus MacBagpipe
()
Date: December 19, 2011 08:01
Quote
21stcenturystones
John 3:16
Sorry, who's been in the John since 3:16?
Hell would be spending eternity with a bunch of religious fanatics. Imagine:the kooks on the street corners, the door-knockers, the TV preachers and the suicide bombers. Golly, what a party in eternity, listening to the Jesus station instead of the Stones.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-12-19 08:09 by Angus MacBagpipe.
Re: OT - R.I.P. Christopher Hitchens
Posted by:
71Tele
()
Date: December 19, 2011 08:07
Quote
Angus MacBagpipeQuote
21stcenturystones
John 3:16
Sorry, who's been in the John since 3:16?
Oh right, "Love Jesus or Burn."
Well isn't that a lovely thought, and so typically Xian.
I just love that the mere naming of a piece of scripture is supposed to end all argument. All ideological fundamentalism - whether political, religious or of another variety - is basically the same. One is supposed to suppress the intellect and common sense and blindly accept the tenets of the creed. I respect truly spiritual people, but if someone quotes chapter and verse to me as a response to a challenge, I run. Ironically, the supposedly atheist Marxists did exactly the same thing. No matter what the actual results of their policies in the real world, they were unable to deviate from the "perfect" ideology of Marxism.
One wonders if many of these so-called "Christians" who put so much energy into deciding who is going to hell for the sin of not buying into their ideology instead put that energy into the actual teachings of their supposed Founder. You know, the whole "love thy neighbor as yourself" bit.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-12-19 08:11 by 71Tele.
Re: OT - R.I.P. Christopher Hitchens
Posted by:
71Tele
()
Date: December 19, 2011 08:10
------------------------
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-12-19 08:12 by 71Tele.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-12-19 08:12 by 71Tele.
Re: OT - R.I.P. Christopher Hitchens
Posted by:
Angus MacBagpipe
()
Date: December 19, 2011 08:12
Which reminds me - Kim Jong Il just died. Practically a "Living God" to the brainwashed in Korea.
I agree Tele, whenever someone says they absolutely have "the answer", run the the other way!
I agree Tele, whenever someone says they absolutely have "the answer", run the the other way!
Re: OT - R.I.P. Christopher Hitchens
Posted by:
71Tele
()
Date: December 19, 2011 08:16
Quote
21stcenturystones
John 3:16
Matthew 22:37-39
Re: OT - R.I.P. Christopher Hitchens
Posted by:
treaclefingers
()
Date: December 19, 2011 08:19
Quote
21stcenturystones
sure...he did not recognize God...therefore was probably not "born again", therefore - HELL -
at least it's all black and white...I was so worried their might be shades of grey...or even colour.
That would have been so confusing.
Re: OT - R.I.P. Christopher Hitchens
Posted by:
21stcenturystones
()
Date: December 19, 2011 08:22
touched a nerve huh? good,this topic can do that. people that get offensive about religion are usually in reality actually trying to find their inner peace and become defensive because they don't know where to look for it. Read the new testament for starters.
Re: OT - R.I.P. Christopher Hitchens
Posted by:
71Tele
()
Date: December 19, 2011 08:26
Quote
21stcenturystones
touched a nerve huh? good,this topic can do that. people that get offensive about religion are usually in reality actually trying to find their inner peace and become defensive because they don't know where to look for it. Read the new testament for starters.
Actually I have read it.
The idea that anybody needs "help" to find "inner peace" from religious ideologues who feel that only they have the "answer" (and everybody else is going to hell!) is quite laughable.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-12-19 08:50 by 71Tele.
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