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Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2011-12-19 08:50 by 71Tele.

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71Tele
Quote: I know by heart the so called Jewish that are left wing/marxist & live in America. Leave your country if you dare & go in Israel .
Only then you will be allowed to speak .

Ridiculous. You should be ashamed of yourself. I am not Marxist, nor am iI "so-called" Jewish. Why can't we criticize Israeli government policies without shrill hysteria, as illustrated by this very sad and unfortunate post. Close to 50% of Israelis disagree with their government's policies toward the Palestinians, so we should be able to as well without being tainted by absurd charges of anti-Semitism or pejoratives like "Marxist". You don't even know me. I HAVE been to Israel, by the way. Fortunately the majority of Israelis do not take this view of those who happen to disagree with certain Israeli government policies.

The criticize Israel is one thing, to oppose Israel's right to exist is another - and that's what anti-zionism is about. To deny specifically the jews a jewish state, while you have no problem with 20+ arab states (and one more is on the way) and countless other nation states is hypocrisy. That Hitchens considered himself as being "of jewish descent" doesn't change anything.

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Angus MacBagpipe
Which reminds me - Kim Jong Il just died. Practically a "Living God" to the brainwashed in Korea.

I agree Tele, whenever someone says they absolutely have "the answer", run the the other way!

That is why I support no one who is absolutely 100% sure of their position. You absolutely can't know there is a god (without even getting into religion) and you absolutely can't know there isn't a god. It would be nice to live in a world where we start from the premise that it's just us on this spinning rock, and try to make the most of this life without every moment hinging on what happens in the next, if there is a next. Religion has negatively impacted my life. They try to curtail my freedoms at every turn in the name of some morality that Jesus himself might not agree with.

"You're gonna pay high prices, for your sacrifices............."

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Bärs

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71Tele
Quote: I know by heart the so called Jewish that are left wing/marxist & live in America. Leave your country if you dare & go in Israel .
Only then you will be allowed to speak .

Ridiculous. You should be ashamed of yourself. I am not Marxist, nor am iI "so-called" Jewish. Why can't we criticize Israeli government policies without shrill hysteria, as illustrated by this very sad and unfortunate post. Close to 50% of Israelis disagree with their government's policies toward the Palestinians, so we should be able to as well without being tainted by absurd charges of anti-Semitism or pejoratives like "Marxist". You don't even know me. I HAVE been to Israel, by the way. Fortunately the majority of Israelis do not take this view of those who happen to disagree with certain Israeli government policies.

The criticize Israel is one thing, to oppose Israel's right to exist is another - and that's what anti-zionism is about. To deny specifically the jews a jewish state, while you have no problem with 20+ arab states (and one more is on the way) and countless other nation states is hypocrisy. That Hitchens considered himself as being "of jewish descent" doesn't change anything.

I do not believe that Hitchens denied Israel's right to exist - and certainly that is not my view, in case you were under that misperception. What I was objecting to is the stifling of the criticism of Israeli policies by labeling people anti-Semites or Marxists (as was done here). People should be able to express their criticisms of Israel without being subject to such tactics. Ironically in Israel itself there is very open debate. Unfortunately in the U.S. there is a fear of even the mildest criticism of Israel by leaders and politicians. I don't happen to think it is healthy when debate is stifled in a democratic society. We also saw this happen around the time of the run up to the Iraq War. The consequences of the stifling of debate were devastating.

I also remind you as a factual matter that 20% of Israeli citizens (as opposed to Palestinians living in the Territories) are non-Jews. These people at least theoretically have the same citizen rights as their Jewish brethren.

By the way, the way you quoted these prior posts makes it looks like I made the statements in the first paragraph, when in fact I was replying to those statements.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-12-19 08:40 by 71Tele.

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71Tele

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Bärs

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71Tele
Quote: I know by heart the so called Jewish that are left wing/marxist & live in America. Leave your country if you dare & go in Israel .
Only then you will be allowed to speak .

Ridiculous. You should be ashamed of yourself. I am not Marxist, nor am iI "so-called" Jewish. Why can't we criticize Israeli government policies without shrill hysteria, as illustrated by this very sad and unfortunate post. Close to 50% of Israelis disagree with their government's policies toward the Palestinians, so we should be able to as well without being tainted by absurd charges of anti-Semitism or pejoratives like "Marxist". You don't even know me. I HAVE been to Israel, by the way. Fortunately the majority of Israelis do not take this view of those who happen to disagree with certain Israeli government policies.

The criticize Israel is one thing, to oppose Israel's right to exist is another - and that's what anti-zionism is about. To deny specifically the jews a jewish state, while you have no problem with 20+ arab states (and one more is on the way) and countless other nation states is hypocrisy. That Hitchens considered himself as being "of jewish descent" doesn't change anything.

I do not believe that Hitchens denied Israel's right to exist - and certainly that is not my view, in case you were under that misperception. What I was objecting to is the stifling of the criticism of Israeli policies by labeling people anti-Semites or Marxists (as was done here). People should be able to express their criticisms of Israel without being subject to such tactics. Ironically in Israel itself there is very open debate. Unfortunately in the U.S. there is a fear of even the mildest criticism of Israel by leaders and politicians. I don't happen to think it is healthy when debate is stifled in a democratic society. We also saw this happen around the time of the run up to the Iraq War. The consequences of the stifling of debate were devastating.

I also remind you as a factual matter that 20% of Israeli citizens (as opposed to Palestinians living in the Territories) are non-Jews. These people at least theoretically have the same citizen rights as their Jewish brethren.

By the way, the way you quoted these prior posts makes it looks like I made the statements in the first paragraph, when in fact I was replying to those statements.

I simply pressed the quote button.

There are some quotes of Hitchens where he states that he wished that he could re-write history and erase Herzl's zionism program all together etc. That's a quite strong denial of the right of the jews to their own nation state. In that respect it's quite understandable that zionists, i.e. supporters of Israel as the jewish state, don't like him. That was my point. Either every pepole or no peole have the right to a nation state. We can't have double standards.

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Bärs
Either every pepole or no peole have the right to a nation state. We can't have double standards.

+1

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Bärs

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71Tele

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Bärs

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71Tele
Quote: I know by heart the so called Jewish that are left wing/marxist & live in America. Leave your country if you dare & go in Israel .
Only then you will be allowed to speak .

Ridiculous. You should be ashamed of yourself. I am not Marxist, nor am iI "so-called" Jewish. Why can't we criticize Israeli government policies without shrill hysteria, as illustrated by this very sad and unfortunate post. Close to 50% of Israelis disagree with their government's policies toward the Palestinians, so we should be able to as well without being tainted by absurd charges of anti-Semitism or pejoratives like "Marxist". You don't even know me. I HAVE been to Israel, by the way. Fortunately the majority of Israelis do not take this view of those who happen to disagree with certain Israeli government policies.

The criticize Israel is one thing, to oppose Israel's right to exist is another - and that's what anti-zionism is about. To deny specifically the jews a jewish state, while you have no problem with 20+ arab states (and one more is on the way) and countless other nation states is hypocrisy. That Hitchens considered himself as being "of jewish descent" doesn't change anything.

I do not believe that Hitchens denied Israel's right to exist - and certainly that is not my view, in case you were under that misperception. What I was objecting to is the stifling of the criticism of Israeli policies by labeling people anti-Semites or Marxists (as was done here). People should be able to express their criticisms of Israel without being subject to such tactics. Ironically in Israel itself there is very open debate. Unfortunately in the U.S. there is a fear of even the mildest criticism of Israel by leaders and politicians. I don't happen to think it is healthy when debate is stifled in a democratic society. We also saw this happen around the time of the run up to the Iraq War. The consequences of the stifling of debate were devastating.

I also remind you as a factual matter that 20% of Israeli citizens (as opposed to Palestinians living in the Territories) are non-Jews. These people at least theoretically have the same citizen rights as their Jewish brethren.

By the way, the way you quoted these prior posts makes it looks like I made the statements in the first paragraph, when in fact I was replying to those statements.

I simply pressed the quote button.

There are some quotes of Hitchens where he states that he wished that he could re-write history and erase Herzl's zionism program all together etc. That's a quite strong denial of the right of the jews to their own nation state. In that respect it's quite understandable that zionists, i.e. supporters of Israel as the jewish state, don't like him. That was my point. Either every pepole or no peole have the right to a nation state. We can't have double standards.

...and some supporters of Israel and their occupation use the same tactics to deny the Palestinians their right to exist in their own country with the same rights that Israelis or you and I have.

I am not defending everything Hitchens said, but his right to say it, and my (and others) right to express honest disagreement with Israel without being called anti-Semites or Marxists. I think I was fairly clear about that.

God Bless everyone... and I mean it

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71Tele

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Bärs

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71Tele

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Bärs

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71Tele
Quote: I know by heart the so called Jewish that are left wing/marxist & live in America. Leave your country if you dare & go in Israel .
Only then you will be allowed to speak .

Ridiculous. You should be ashamed of yourself. I am not Marxist, nor am iI "so-called" Jewish. Why can't we criticize Israeli government policies without shrill hysteria, as illustrated by this very sad and unfortunate post. Close to 50% of Israelis disagree with their government's policies toward the Palestinians, so we should be able to as well without being tainted by absurd charges of anti-Semitism or pejoratives like "Marxist". You don't even know me. I HAVE been to Israel, by the way. Fortunately the majority of Israelis do not take this view of those who happen to disagree with certain Israeli government policies.

The criticize Israel is one thing, to oppose Israel's right to exist is another - and that's what anti-zionism is about. To deny specifically the jews a jewish state, while you have no problem with 20+ arab states (and one more is on the way) and countless other nation states is hypocrisy. That Hitchens considered himself as being "of jewish descent" doesn't change anything.

I do not believe that Hitchens denied Israel's right to exist - and certainly that is not my view, in case you were under that misperception. What I was objecting to is the stifling of the criticism of Israeli policies by labeling people anti-Semites or Marxists (as was done here). People should be able to express their criticisms of Israel without being subject to such tactics. Ironically in Israel itself there is very open debate. Unfortunately in the U.S. there is a fear of even the mildest criticism of Israel by leaders and politicians. I don't happen to think it is healthy when debate is stifled in a democratic society. We also saw this happen around the time of the run up to the Iraq War. The consequences of the stifling of debate were devastating.

I also remind you as a factual matter that 20% of Israeli citizens (as opposed to Palestinians living in the Territories) are non-Jews. These people at least theoretically have the same citizen rights as their Jewish brethren.

By the way, the way you quoted these prior posts makes it looks like I made the statements in the first paragraph, when in fact I was replying to those statements.

I simply pressed the quote button.

There are some quotes of Hitchens where he states that he wished that he could re-write history and erase Herzl's zionism program all together etc. That's a quite strong denial of the right of the jews to their own nation state. In that respect it's quite understandable that zionists, i.e. supporters of Israel as the jewish state, don't like him. That was my point. Either every pepole or no peole have the right to a nation state. We can't have double standards.

...and some supporters of Israel and their occupation use the same tactics to deny the Palestinians their right to exist in their own country with the same rights that Israelis or you and I have.

I am not defending everything Hitchens said, but his right to say it, and my (and others) right to express honest disagreement with Israel without being called anti-Semites or Marxists. I think I was fairly clear about that.

There are a lot of arab states. No one denies arabs their right to nation states but the arabs in Palestine have since the 1930s declined to have of state of their own. They want all of Palestine, which means no Israel. That's what Hitchens and other anti-zionists want aswell. It's that easy.

OT: I believe Hitchens was a marxist. They are usually anti-zionist.

why is it that when someone criticizes someone of Arabic descent, they are not labeled an anti-semite? Arabs are semites too, after all.

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21stcenturystones
He won't miss the pain he was in here - nothing he experienced on this earth compares to what he will experience for enternity - HELL -

21stcenturystones, the arrogance and hypocrisy of Christians does nobody any good including yourself for whom Christ died. That said I know my own life is full of hypocrisy too, thankfully the God of this world is merciful, kind and gracious and like the scriptures teach us "If we confess our sins He is faithful and Just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness" I John 1:9

You should read the article I posted earlier in this thread, I'd love to hear your thoughts on it.

Merry Christmas to you and your family....NWSooner

rip

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Bärs

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71Tele

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Bärs

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71Tele

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Bärs

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71Tele
Quote: I know by heart the so called Jewish that are left wing/marxist & live in America. Leave your country if you dare & go in Israel .
Only then you will be allowed to speak .

Ridiculous. You should be ashamed of yourself. I am not Marxist, nor am iI "so-called" Jewish. Why can't we criticize Israeli government policies without shrill hysteria, as illustrated by this very sad and unfortunate post. Close to 50% of Israelis disagree with their government's policies toward the Palestinians, so we should be able to as well without being tainted by absurd charges of anti-Semitism or pejoratives like "Marxist". You don't even know me. I HAVE been to Israel, by the way. Fortunately the majority of Israelis do not take this view of those who happen to disagree with certain Israeli government policies.

The criticize Israel is one thing, to oppose Israel's right to exist is another - and that's what anti-zionism is about. To deny specifically the jews a jewish state, while you have no problem with 20+ arab states (and one more is on the way) and countless other nation states is hypocrisy. That Hitchens considered himself as being "of jewish descent" doesn't change anything.

I do not believe that Hitchens denied Israel's right to exist - and certainly that is not my view, in case you were under that misperception. What I was objecting to is the stifling of the criticism of Israeli policies by labeling people anti-Semites or Marxists (as was done here). People should be able to express their criticisms of Israel without being subject to such tactics. Ironically in Israel itself there is very open debate. Unfortunately in the U.S. there is a fear of even the mildest criticism of Israel by leaders and politicians. I don't happen to think it is healthy when debate is stifled in a democratic society. We also saw this happen around the time of the run up to the Iraq War. The consequences of the stifling of debate were devastating.

I also remind you as a factual matter that 20% of Israeli citizens (as opposed to Palestinians living in the Territories) are non-Jews. These people at least theoretically have the same citizen rights as their Jewish brethren.

By the way, the way you quoted these prior posts makes it looks like I made the statements in the first paragraph, when in fact I was replying to those statements.

I simply pressed the quote button.

There are some quotes of Hitchens where he states that he wished that he could re-write history and erase Herzl's zionism program all together etc. That's a quite strong denial of the right of the jews to their own nation state. In that respect it's quite understandable that zionists, i.e. supporters of Israel as the jewish state, don't like him. That was my point. Either every pepole or no peole have the right to a nation state. We can't have double standards.

...and some supporters of Israel and their occupation use the same tactics to deny the Palestinians their right to exist in their own country with the same rights that Israelis or you and I have.

I am not defending everything Hitchens said, but his right to say it, and my (and others) right to express honest disagreement with Israel without being called anti-Semites or Marxists. I think I was fairly clear about that.

There are a lot of arab states. No one denies arabs their right to nation states but the arabs in Palestine have since the 1930s declined to have of state of their own. They want all of Palestine, which means no Israel. That's what Hitchens and other anti-zionists want aswell. It's that easy.

OT: I believe Hitchens was a marxist. They are usually anti-zionist.

This is a distortion of course. Some Palestinians want all of Palestine, some Isrealis want all of Palestine. Hence the problem.

You are also engaging in an argument I find highly offensive, which is that because there are other "Arab states" somehow that means the Palestinians can be denied their normal rights in their own homes and on their own land they have lived on for generations. Why does a person who comes from Europe or Russia have more right to a home in historical Palestine than a Palestinian whose family has lived there for hundreds of years? these people should all just do what, go to Syria or Libya because they are also "Arab states"? It's a stupid argument and it is no surprise that the Palestinians don't buy it.

Also, you "believe" Hitchens was a Marxist? Well, it's stupid to believe something that is easily known not be true if you bother to look it up. Hitchens flirted with socialism as a youth. In his mature years he was a fierce opponent of all oppression, including Marxist oppression. Orwell was his model in this. He also supported some right-wing ideas (such as the invasion of Iraq). You really should know what the hell you are talking about when making statements that people are Marxists, etc. because it undermines everything else you have to say.

Once again, I admire Hitchens for his guts, his humor and his courage. This does not mean I agreed with everything he said or wrote (I don't).



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-12-19 18:02 by 71Tele.

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21stcenturystones
touched a nerve huh? good,this topic can do that. people that get offensive about religion are usually in reality actually trying to find their inner peace and become defensive because they don't know where to look for it. Read the new testament for starters.

Everyone on this planet is trying to find inner peace, including you - it has nothing to do with God or religion - it has everything to do with humanity, and being a human being, - animals want inner peace too. And the older we get - more inner peace we need - it about becoming an adult. If you find it from a drug called religion, then good for you - more power to you - but If that´s all it takes, then if youre a true believer then surely you can look yourself in the mirror and ask - do I believe in this because it makes perfect sense to me, - Do I know all there is to know about my religion - or do I believe it becouse it´s easier not to think about it, since my mother/father/school teacher told me to do so, and brainwashed me to become religous when I was a child. - So I dont have to think ? Is that it ?What do you know about youre own religion? Is there more books to read then just that one ? - If it´s a real inner peace with real faith, then you can test yourself by questioning your own belief systems, by perhaps reading God Is Not Great by Hitchens for starters.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2011-12-19 20:01 by seitan.

I find my inner peace by minding my own business.

The thing is Hitch put things in perspective. He identified Clinton's bombing of Sudan as utterly spurious, used to avoid impeachment over the Lewinski affair, and the knock-on effect of that years' later, after 9/11.

He also was critical of the watered-down approach to history deployed by US teachers in schools, and how far the teaching and learning of history has become utterly PC. This has led, both in Britain and the US, to an intellectual void. I read with disbelief that Hitch had to teach his students in the US historical background to the literature that they were to study.

What I should say, and paraphrase Hitch's least favourite book, is Go to The Hitch, thou sluggard, consider his ways and be wise !

This must be the longest time an overtly political thread has run before getting shut down. I guess BV must have gone skiing.

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Silver Dagger
This must be the longest time an overtly political thread has run before getting shut down. I guess BV must have gone skiing.

and all hell hasn't broken loose. this place seems to be functioning as normal as can be.

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GumbootCloggeroo

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Silver Dagger
This must be the longest time an overtly political thread has run before getting shut down. I guess BV must have gone skiing.

and all hell hasn't broken loose. this place seems to be functioning as normal as can be.

The thing is it shouldn't be political arguments. We are not going to solve the Isralei-Palestinian conflict on a Stones message board. The thread was really just paying tribute to the man, not necessarily taking his side on every one of his positions.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-12-19 23:35 by 71Tele.

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21stcenturystones
He won't miss the pain he was in here - nothing he experienced on this earth compares to what he will experience for enternity - HELL -

whoever you are you are fundamentally misunderstanding something basic. Learn to appreciate other points of view.

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71Tele

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Bärs

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71Tele

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Bärs

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71Tele

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Bärs

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71Tele
Quote: I know by heart the so called Jewish that are left wing/marxist & live in America. Leave your country if you dare & go in Israel .
Only then you will be allowed to speak .

Ridiculous. You should be ashamed of yourself. I am not Marxist, nor am iI "so-called" Jewish. Why can't we criticize Israeli government policies without shrill hysteria, as illustrated by this very sad and unfortunate post. Close to 50% of Israelis disagree with their government's policies toward the Palestinians, so we should be able to as well without being tainted by absurd charges of anti-Semitism or pejoratives like "Marxist". You don't even know me. I HAVE been to Israel, by the way. Fortunately the majority of Israelis do not take this view of those who happen to disagree with certain Israeli government policies.

The criticize Israel is one thing, to oppose Israel's right to exist is another - and that's what anti-zionism is about. To deny specifically the jews a jewish state, while you have no problem with 20+ arab states (and one more is on the way) and countless other nation states is hypocrisy. That Hitchens considered himself as being "of jewish descent" doesn't change anything.

I do not believe that Hitchens denied Israel's right to exist - and certainly that is not my view, in case you were under that misperception. What I was objecting to is the stifling of the criticism of Israeli policies by labeling people anti-Semites or Marxists (as was done here). People should be able to express their criticisms of Israel without being subject to such tactics. Ironically in Israel itself there is very open debate. Unfortunately in the U.S. there is a fear of even the mildest criticism of Israel by leaders and politicians. I don't happen to think it is healthy when debate is stifled in a democratic society. We also saw this happen around the time of the run up to the Iraq War. The consequences of the stifling of debate were devastating.

I also remind you as a factual matter that 20% of Israeli citizens (as opposed to Palestinians living in the Territories) are non-Jews. These people at least theoretically have the same citizen rights as their Jewish brethren.

By the way, the way you quoted these prior posts makes it looks like I made the statements in the first paragraph, when in fact I was replying to those statements.

I simply pressed the quote button.

There are some quotes of Hitchens where he states that he wished that he could re-write history and erase Herzl's zionism program all together etc. That's a quite strong denial of the right of the jews to their own nation state. In that respect it's quite understandable that zionists, i.e. supporters of Israel as the jewish state, don't like him. That was my point. Either every pepole or no peole have the right to a nation state. We can't have double standards.

...and some supporters of Israel and their occupation use the same tactics to deny the Palestinians their right to exist in their own country with the same rights that Israelis or you and I have.

I am not defending everything Hitchens said, but his right to say it, and my (and others) right to express honest disagreement with Israel without being called anti-Semites or Marxists. I think I was fairly clear about that.

There are a lot of arab states. No one denies arabs their right to nation states but the arabs in Palestine have since the 1930s declined to have of state of their own. They want all of Palestine, which means no Israel. That's what Hitchens and other anti-zionists want aswell. It's that easy.

OT: I believe Hitchens was a marxist. They are usually anti-zionist.

This is a distortion of course. Some Palestinians want all of Palestine, some Isrealis want all of Palestine. Hence the problem.

You are also engaging in an argument I find highly offensive, which is that because there are other "Arab states" somehow that means the Palestinians can be denied their normal rights in their own homes and on their own land they have lived on for generations. Why does a person who comes from Europe or Russia have more right to a home in historical Palestine than a Palestinian whose family has lived there for hundreds of years? these people should all just do what, go to Syria or Libya because they are also "Arab states"? It's a stupid argument and it is no surprise that the Palestinians don't buy it.

Also, you "believe" Hitchens was a Marxist? Well, it's stupid to believe something that is easily known not be true if you bother to look it up. Hitchens flirted with socialism as a youth. In his mature years he was a fierce opponent of all oppression, including Marxist oppression. Orwell was his model in this. He also supported some right-wing ideas (such as the invasion of Iraq). You really should know what the hell you are talking about when making statements that people are Marxists, etc. because it undermines everything else you have to say.

Once again, I admire Hitchens for his guts, his humor and his courage. This does not mean I agreed with everything he said or wrote (I don't).

It's easy to dismiss an argument as offensive when you created it yourself. It's called a straw man.

Palestinians are arabs in what was called Greater Syria in the Ottoman empire. A part of this province is the homeland of the jews, where they have lived for 3500 years and where they had the kingdoms of Israel and Judea. The arabs are pretty recent immigrants compared to that (7th century). Anyway, when the jews want to recreate their state in their homeland, it doesn't mean that the arabs must move. (As you said, there is a million arabs in Israel who live in freedom and democracy.) When the english took over the area after WW1 they called their mandate Palestine, and gave more or less right away 80 % of it the arabs (Jordan). That the arabs in Mandate Palestine were "palestinians" is a recent invention and part of their strategy the get rid of Israel. These are there own words and I can easily back up every statement if I have to. The jews have agreed on every partion plan for Palestine, the arabs have dismissed them all. These are facts. It's also important to note that Palestine is not an arab word. The romans re-named Judea to Palestine when they annihilated the jewish presence in Judea after a jewish rebellion against the romans. That's why the jews are scattered all around the world.

Regarding Hitchens and marxism it seems that he considered himself a marxist until the bitter end:


"Hitchens, as recently as 2009, again referred to himself as "a Marxist". Hitchens continued to affirm his respect for Marxist theory, including his 2009 article for The Atlantic entitled "The Revenge of Karl Marx". There he explains how Marx's economic analysis in Das Kapital has predicted many of the failures of the U.S. economy, including the late-2000s recession. He continued to regard both Vladimir Lenin and Leon Trotsky as great men, and the Bolsheviks' October Revolution as a necessary event in the modernization of Russia"

[en.wikipedia.org]

"We are going to solve the Isralei-Palestinian conflict on a Stones message board". Wow! Are we, 71 Tele! OK, I'll go for that! The Nobel Prize for 2012 - here we come!

There are opinions and facts, and I wanted to clarify some undisputed facts. Hitchens described himself both as an anti-zionist (and a marxist) and that's why I can understand that people in Israel not necessarily like him. Marixsts, arab nationalists, muslim and jewish religious fundamentalists are usually anti-zionists. That's uncontroversial. Enough for this time.

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Stoneage
"We are going to solve the Isralei-Palestinian conflict on a Stones message board". Wow! Are we, 71 Tele! OK, I'll go for that! The Nobel Prize for 2012 - here we come!

Sorry, I meant "not". Busy day, typing too fast.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-12-19 23:35 by 71Tele.

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Bärs
There are opinions and facts, and I wanted to clarify some undisputed facts. Hitchens described himself both as an anti-zionist (and a marxist) and that's why I can understand that people in Israel not necessarily like him. Marixsts, arab nationalists, muslim and jewish religious fundamentalists are usually anti-zionists. That's uncontroversial. Enough for this time.

Yes, except that he wasn't a Marxist, which you would know if you have bothered to read anything he wrote in the last 20 years. So, in purporting to state "facts" you mis-state one major one.

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71Tele

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Bärs
There are opinions and facts, and I wanted to clarify some undisputed facts. Hitchens described himself both as an anti-zionist (and a marxist) and that's why I can understand that people in Israel not necessarily like him. Marixsts, arab nationalists, muslim and jewish religious fundamentalists are usually anti-zionists. That's uncontroversial. Enough for this time.

Yes, except that he wasn't a Marxist, which you would know if you have bothered to read anything he wrote in the last 20 years. So, in purporting to state "facts" you mis-state one major one.

Please, I just listened to a pretty recent interview where he called himself a "marxist". I'm sure he didn't like Stalin etc. but it is fact that he presented himself as a marxist even in later days.

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71Tele

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Stoneage
"We are going to solve the Isralei-Palestinian conflict on a Stones message board". Wow! Are we, 71 Tele! OK, I'll go for that! The Nobel Prize for 2012 - here we come!

Sorry, I meant "not". Busy day, typing too fast.

Sure, I know 71 Tele. I was just kidding you, of course! (Maybe I should throw in one of those emoticones to be sure not to look like a smart arse next time?)

An Athiest is just as moral, if not more so than the religious moral guardians who break their own rules every day, never seen an Athiest declaring Jihad or an Inquisition or Witch burnings or any other reason to kill anyone they want in the name of God,

Christopher Hitchens share´s his opinion on the Rolling Stones versus Beatles debate ! on around "28.37" - He thinks Stones were better

Hitchens quotes gimme shelter..

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Stoneage

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71Tele

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Stoneage
"We are going to solve the Isralei-Palestinian conflict on a Stones message board". Wow! Are we, 71 Tele! OK, I'll go for that! The Nobel Prize for 2012 - here we come!

Sorry, I meant "not". Busy day, typing too fast.

Sure, I know 71 Tele. I was just kidding you, of course! (Maybe I should throw in one of those emoticones to be sure not to look like a smart arse next time?)

I know...crazy here at work. So my posts are a bit spotty. Cheers.