Tell Me :  Talk
Talk about your favorite band. 

Previous page Next page First page IORR home

For information about how to use this forum please check out forum help and policies.

Goto Page: Previous12345Next
Current Page: 3 of 5
Re: Does anybody else feel like Keith slighted bill wyman in "Life"?
Posted by: angee ()
Date: October 23, 2011 23:15

Doxa, on this,
"Anyway, I think we will see in the future years more critical books of Keith and of lis life. I think LIFE is the ultimate myth-making book; it cannot go beyond that any longer. Besides, IORR is a great place to reflect the change of the climate. Just few yaers ago there wasn't almost any critical points about Keith offered at all (of course, about some contingent things, such as his playing skills but not about the whole man and myth) - now they are quite regular. I take that quite many hardcore Stones fans have started to to rethink the past, and especially the "Keith myth" that is taken for granted for so long in Stonesland.

- Doxa"


Thanks for pointing out that there were few criticisms of Keith here a few years ago. Seems to me that it's rather interesting that words from Keith himself have prompted such negativity. Maybe that goes with the idea that some say it's better not to meet your idols because they turn out more human than god-like.

Palace, about this:

"But Keith's book was also a major let down. Talk about someone not finding grace. I am so amazed that his book was a huge success with the non hardcores; that was his big market.
But I still lay the real blame on the writer, editor's doorstep. They should have kept him talking. I think they jumped on the juicy cheap shots early on."


I don't think the (co-) writer, editor (if there was one) and publisher had much leeway. From reading about the process, I think the book was about two years behind schedule when it came out. With the writer tracking Keith down around the world so he could sit him down to ask him questions and record the answers, and the seven million dollars or 4.8 GBP paid in advance of the writing, the clear choice was to close off the writing at some point.

Those of us who have tried/are trying to write books without these conditions often take a very, very long time, partly in an attempt to achieve quality, and sometimes we find publishers willing to take a chance. Some writers never publish their books or have to do it themselves.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-10-23 23:20 by angee.

Re: Does anybody else feel like Keith slighted bill wyman in "Life"?
Posted by: doelikebeauty ()
Date: October 24, 2011 05:57

Am I mistaken or is it true that none of the Stones were mentioned in the acknowledgments at the back of the book of "Life"??

Re: Does anybody else feel like Keith slighted bill wyman in "Life"?
Posted by: SoCharlie ()
Date: October 29, 2011 11:45

Every one of them pushes himself into the spotlight- every one of them has their soloprojects to make money. Brian Jones is a ghost since 1969 and its easy to speak for a ghost.

Re: Does anybody else feel like Keith slighted bill wyman in "Life"?
Posted by: slew ()
Date: October 29, 2011 19:52

I think he did slight Bill. I beleive Bill went to Keith's mother;s funeral though.

Re: Does anybody else feel like Keith slighted bill wyman in "Life"?
Posted by: Redhotcarpet ()
Date: October 29, 2011 22:05

Quote
SoCharlie
Every one of them pushes himself into the spotlight- every one of them has their soloprojects to make money. Brian Jones is a ghost since 1969 and its easy to speak for a ghost.

Not true, Keith is the one with ego problems. I guess it's like Doxa put it, ALO:s plan for Keith and I have my theory about the breakup of Brianita and Keiths actions in the 80s. Keith is a member of the worlds oldest boy band.

Re: Does anybody else feel like Keith slighted bill wyman in "Life"?
Date: October 29, 2011 22:28

This band has been captivated, fascinated millions of people for decades across the planet so in the end they can not even control the feelings of people towards them not even have an accurate idea of the numerous feelings they elicit on us.

I for one am one of the big (and by the way growing) number of fans who is convinced that Bill added some inexplicabe taste, indefinable flavor to Stones music. Many things have surely happen behind the scenes that made Keith and Mick belittle Bills contribution. But those things have always been hidden and fans we dont ´care about them. But it has been a big mistake of Keith outshining Bill.

Darryl Jones may be an excellent bass player, light years techincally better than Bill but Bill added mysterious ingredients to the potion. He may not even know which ingredients are those ..but they are still there. And of course Stones tours are a bit colder without Bill. If there is a tour and/or they come back to the blues roots as a way of saying goodbye Bill must come back.

Re: Does anybody else feel like Keith slighted bill wyman in "Life"?
Posted by: Brue ()
Date: October 29, 2011 22:42

Quote
emotionalbarbecue
This band has been captivated, fascinated millions of people for decades across the planet so in the end they can not even control the feelings of people towards them not even have an accurate idea of the numerous feelings they elicit on us.


Bill added mysterious ingredients to the potion. He may not even know which ingredients are those ..but they are still there. And of course Stones tours are a bit colder without Bill. If there is a tour and/or they come back to the blues roots as a way of saying goodbye Bill must come back.

I think the indefinable qualities come from that fact that there wasn't any rock and roll at all until Wyman was 19. Think about it - every other rock bass player had probably picked up the bass because of rock and roll much earlier on in their lives. He learned music from a different angle - in school. Listened to jazz and the hit parade stuff. Formulated his own ideas about what sounded good by the time rock showed up in '54. His playing was just a helluva lot more mature than Richards and Jones especially early on.

That's my theory and I'm stickin to it winking smiley

Re: Does anybody else feel like Keith slighted bill wyman in "Life"?
Posted by: 71Tele ()
Date: October 29, 2011 23:00

I have always maintained that the Stones are not a "Rock" band. The reason is Charlie and Bill. They didn't grow up listening to rock bands and weren't influenced by them.

Listen to what happens when rock bands try to cover the Stones. They can play the chords and sing the words, but it never comes close to the feel. My least favorite Stones songs are when they try to play "rock" ("Rock and a Hard Place", etc.)

Re: Does anybody else feel like Keith slighted bill wyman in "Life"?
Posted by: MKjan ()
Date: October 30, 2011 00:23

I was hoping for a better acknowledgement of Bill's contributions, which I
do indeed miss since he has left the band.

Re: Does anybody else feel like Keith slighted bill wyman in "Life"?
Date: October 30, 2011 20:40

nice thread.. some good stuff here.. doxa in particular but not just..


as i get older- and i've written this before- i realize what a bunch of baloney the keith myth is... one time i mentioned this to a friend who fully believes and he got so mad...its hard to even talk bout it with most people.. they are so eager to believe in keith the supernatural god of rock who can take any drug and is the greatest guitar player ever..

Re: Does anybody else feel like Keith slighted bill wyman in "Life"?
Posted by: Brue ()
Date: November 2, 2011 02:56

This one is for Bill - his old buddy Frampton is coming to Europe, this weekend he's in Portugal.

11.05.2011Atlantico Pavillion, Lisbon, Portugal
11.06.2011La Riviera, Madrid, Spain
11.08.2011Club Jordi, Barcelona, Spain
11.11.2011Bridgewater Hall, Manchester, UK
11.12.2011Corn Exchange, Cambridge, UK
11.13.2011Hammersmith Apollo, London, UK
11.15.2011Symphony Hall, Birmingham, UK
11.16.2011Royal Concert Hall, Glasgow, UK
11.18.2011Queen Elisabeth Hall, Antwerp, Belgium
11.19.2011Heineken Music Hall, Amsterdam, Holland TICKETS | INFO
11.21.2011Tempodrom, Berlin, Germany TICKETS | INFO
11.22.2011Phonixhalle, Mainz, Germany TICKETS | INFO
11.23.2011Bataclan, Paris, FranceTICKETS | INFO





Re: Does anybody else feel like Keith slighted bill wyman in "Life"?
Posted by: mahituna ()
Date: April 11, 2013 07:48

Keith is self absorbed. I think throughout his life his ego has gotten so big it is impossible to reel in. You can see why, 50 years of privlage, money, special treatment, countless fans. When you listen to him speak he talks as if the whole world is waiting on what he and the Stones are doing and that the world passes it's days wondering when, where, how the Stones are doing this and doing that.

Dude, you play in a rock band. You don't have any effect on world events other than the night you play in a town and fans scramble for a ticket. After the show is over people go home and carry on with their daily lives and frankly could give a shit what you are up to. To hear Keith talk the Stones are the only important thing in the world.

He believes that his drug use is something to be proud of, he sounds like a high school stoner bragging about how @#$%& up he got last night. Believe me when I say once you pass the age of 20 most people find such a conversation just plain boring.

Re: Does anybody else feel like Keith slighted bill wyman in "Life"?
Posted by: Redhotcarpet ()
Date: April 11, 2013 14:00

Quote
Doxa
Actually, what Bill Wyman writes in STONE ALONE of The Rolling Stones during the 60's is about the opposite version of what Keith writes in LIFE.

Bill had (a least) three clear tendencies in his book:

(1) To tell the world that The Rolling Stones is actually a band which was pretty much the brain child of Brian Jones (he picked all the members one by one, and gave them the image, the style, the attitude, the idea and the mission), and which worked very democratically in the early days, each member (including Bill, of course) enjoying almost equal weight in the whole. The Stones were originally a five-headed-monster, a tight unit that conqured the world together. (Read: all this is against the idea of Jagger/Richards-dominancy of the latter days).

(2) To reveal that Keith Richards and his position within the band is basically Andrew Loog Oldham's brain child. Keith is potrayed as a shy, almost helpless boy who was happy just to be play the guitar with the 'boys', and couldn't even sing, but then strongly with a harsh force pushed by ALO to the front and to the important/privileged position within the band. Wyman gives us a detailed account how Keith's role was created step by step and by the cost of the others (Brian and Bill, that is). ALO made him to sing back ground vocals, pushed to write music, to be filmed and inerviewed more, etc. Brian and Mick, according to Bill' testimony, and in that order, were the original big boys in the band. ALO teamed Keith with Mick, and thanks to that deal, Keith's star grew up next to Mick's natural lead.

[Showing the importance of the artificial background of Keith's leadership is very much to do with the context of the day when STONE ALONE was released: the 80's were a triumph for the whole world recognizing Keith's fundamental role within the Stones (by the cost of Jagger). "Keith is the Stones" was the slogan of the day.]

(3) To show that the originality of Jagger/Richards songcraft is to an extent a myth. Many songs were group compositions a'la Nanker Phelge but Jagger and Richard took all the credit. Bill even gives us examples of some definitive numbers ("Paint It Black", "Jumpin' Jack Flash"). But by dominating the song policy Jagger and Richards controlled the band and its money. Controlling the band, however, happened step by step, once again eary much helped by ALO. By the time ALO left, the band was almost totally in the charge of Mick and Keith (who, ironically, had teamed up with Allen Klein - the deal only Bill was against of!).

Now if we compare that to Keith's version of the happenings, he writes off the central role of Brian Jones totally out of the picture (pointing out, for example, Stu's role instead in the very beginning), not giving much attention to ALO's role either, and clearly doesn't give Bill any weight at all; just tells more or less a story of talented, leader-born blues purist from Dartford who teamed up with a great singer and then, after a bit of outsider encouragement, recognized that he is a natural-talent composer, who would lead the band with his compositions (the singer would finish the lyrics, though). LIFE tells us tha Keith Richards was born to lead the Rolling Stones. It is his band, and only he can know what is good or bad for it. And yeah, he used to do drugs with John Lennon, the leader of The Beatles, his 'equal' in the musical world.

If we now read these stories against each other, one can see that they express an attitude towards each other that is far from that of respect. They seemingly have very different kind of picture of not just from each other, but of themselves (self-picture) as well. Probably Keith is paying back to Bill a bit (I can understand that since some of the claims Bill made are really below the belt!).

- Doxa


+1 Had to bump this. One of the best posts.

Re: Does anybody else feel like Keith slighted bill wyman in "Life"?
Date: April 11, 2013 14:34

Keith was probably the only person in the band that actually could sing in the beginning - he was schooled, and had a real sweet voice - as his singing during the first years clearly shows grinning smiley

And why don't people think that Stu was the leading musician in the Stones in the beginning? That is a mystery. He was the only one with the skills - the other ones were in the process of self-teaching. Sounds very plausible to me that Stu was kind of a "father figure" musically.

And I think Doxa is too bright and enlightened, now that he has calmed down after the "shocking revelations" of the book, to stand by this post today.

Brian founded the band, and named it, and should be appreciated for that.

He was far from being the band's musical director, though.

Re: Does anybody else feel like Keith slighted bill wyman in "Life"?
Posted by: BILLPERKS ()
Date: April 11, 2013 15:10

KEITHS' BOOK IS EVEN MORE SILLY WHEN LISTENED TO ON AUDIOBOOK.
HE SOUNDS RIDICULOUS A LOT OF THE TIME.
I LOST A LOT OF RESPECT FOR HIM & I UNDERSTAND WHY MICK WANTS LITTLE TO DO WITH HIM.

Re: Does anybody else feel like Keith slighted bill wyman in "Life"?
Date: April 11, 2013 15:12

Usually, people without arguments turn to shouting instead...

Re: Does anybody else feel like Keith slighted bill wyman in "Life"?
Posted by: DoomandGloom ()
Date: April 11, 2013 16:35

Keith's exploits are somewhat of a myth as were Dean Martin's. Bragging about drug abuse and such crap does little for art or society. George Harrison felt he had much to apologize for regarding the glamorizing of such a life style. Keith has never taken responsibility for his negative influence on kids who idolized him. To burst his bubble, K.R. is far from the wildest, most out of control rock star I ever knew. Yeah he could finish off a bottle of booze in a night and pass around the flange but he'd still get to sleep in the day and report to work within an hour of his scheduled arrival the next evening. It always mystified me that he needed to hang this tag of irresponsibility on himself and sometimes prove it to those around him. Some of the darkest days for him were during "The Expensive Winos" where he had no one to answer to. I rehearsed in the same building as them, saw Keith in the hall and did not recognize him, I called security thinking a bum had snuck in. Keith should man up and be grateful to Mick and the rest of his band for keeping his career in tact. Ultimately he is a lovable, gentle person who's charisma and warmth is genuine. It's a shame he's so uncomfortable showing that. With all the band has done in their lives, they've dedicated very little publicly for charities besides the concerts that were judge ordered in Canada. That is part of their legacy as well.

Re: Does anybody else feel like Keith slighted bill wyman in "Life"?
Date: April 11, 2013 16:43

If memory serves, Keith has not been holding back on charity work throughout the years.

I guess he has softened up, and won't bother to maintain his image today, though:







Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-04-11 16:43 by DandelionPowderman.

Re: Does anybody else feel like Keith slighted bill wyman in "Life"?
Posted by: duke richardson ()
Date: April 11, 2013 16:54

saw Keith in the hall and did not recognize him, I called security thinking a bum had snuck in.

that is somehow hilarious and sad ..

not many people can say they called security on Keith Richards

Re: Does anybody else feel like Keith slighted bill wyman in "Life"?
Posted by: SweetThing ()
Date: April 11, 2013 16:54

I'm certainly not a fan of Keith's book though I enjoyed reading parts of it and of course it's a valuable piece of the puzzle in understanding the Stones history (notwithstanding the likely revisionist elements scattered here and there).

In one sense, I feel Keith slighted nearly the entire band almost by omission, with the exceptions of Stu, Charlie Watts and Bobby Keys. But that is just the general approach he took.

But on the question of Bill Wyman, I find Keith's tone to be benevolent throughout. While Keith surely did provide a critical and mildly skeptical perspective on the sheer number of Wyman's sexual conquests in the early days, that was fair game, since Wyman himself had put it out there, and one would think, fairly unimportant to just about anyone in the long run.

Noticeably absent were any snide remarks and gratuitous put downs of the earlier years. Those were all replaced by fairly complimentary or even conciliatory observations. I tend to believe this was a conscious choice by Richards and perhaps even a subtle olive branch.

Re: Does anybody else feel like Keith slighted bill wyman in "Life"?
Posted by: 24FPS ()
Date: April 11, 2013 18:49

And now.........further down the line for this thread.....we see that Bill did indeed return for what was perceived at the time as some of the last Rolling Stones concerts. And it was Keith who arranged it. Bill ended up pissed and hurt again, his fallback position, and Keith appears kind of clueless. Nothing changed. Now Bill's ire seems to be towards Mick. Oh well, I guess you can't go home again. Sigh.

Re: Does anybody else feel like Keith slighted bill wyman in "Life"?
Posted by: Carnaby ()
Date: April 11, 2013 20:04

I think Keith left out a lot in that book.

Re: Does anybody else feel like Keith slighted bill wyman in "Life"?
Date: April 12, 2013 00:35

z



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-04-12 00:36 by emotionalbarbecue.

Re: Does anybody else feel like Keith slighted bill wyman in "Life"?
Posted by: sonomastone ()
Date: April 12, 2013 07:46

Never saw this before. Thanks for sharing. It's pure genius.

Quote
SweetThing


That satire, an imaginary Jagger response to Life piece which appeared in Slate should be an addendum in the last couple pages of LIFE....

[www.slate.com]

Re: Does anybody else feel like Keith slighted bill wyman in "Life"?
Posted by: Bliss ()
Date: April 12, 2013 10:07

This article got a lot of attention here when it came out, and certainly the author Bill Wyman writes with a great deal of insight and elegance. However, being a rock lyricist and not a rock journalist, Mick himself does not write in such an elegant style. But I can't imagine he would disagree with anything put forth in this article.

Re: Does anybody else feel like Keith slighted bill wyman in "Life"?
Posted by: matxil ()
Date: February 14, 2014 14:04

Just my two cents: when you watch the film "Charlie is my darling", I think it's quite obvious that Jagger/Richards simply had to become the songwriters of the Rolling Stones, and no other pairing would ever have worked. Jagger, initially, mainly for his attitude, his showmanship, his extrovert character and - also, clearly - his admiration for Keith. And Keith simply because in the entire movie he is never without an instrument, be it a piano or a guitar. His love for playing and figuring out songs, and discovering chords and how to play them, is all over the film. He never was a virtuoso, but he certainly had the drive.

I don't know about the personal mutual feelings of Keith and Bill. When you have played for such a long time together, it's inevitable to have some kind of mutual empathy but at the same time have bickerings and hard feelings here and there. Bill was a great bass player in the Stones but I never noticed that his songwriting skills were particularly great. And let's face it, in interviews he comes across as a very sour, negative kind of person. His obsession with little girls and "how much he had" don't make him much likelable either.

Re: Does anybody else feel like Keith slighted bill wyman in "Life"?
Posted by: latebloomer ()
Date: February 14, 2014 15:43

It always makes me cringe when I see these old Keith book threads pop up...sort of like revisiting a painful breakup.

The Stones have obviously moved on, I hope everyone here has as well.

Re: Does anybody else feel like Keith slighted bill wyman in "Life"?
Posted by: More Hot Rocks ()
Date: February 14, 2014 15:49

Bill's been on the S%^& list since he left. I think Mick and keith really don't care anything about him.

Re: Does anybody else feel like Keith slighted bill wyman in "Life"?
Date: February 14, 2014 15:58

Quote
latebloomer
It always makes me cringe when I see these old Keith book threads pop up...sort of like revisiting a painful breakup.

The Stones have obviously moved on, I hope everyone here has as well.

thumbs up

It baffled me back then, as well as today, that people were suprised that Keith repeated things he's been saying for decades in his book as well. It's almost like people didn't believe the interview quotes confused smiley

Re: Does anybody else feel like Keith slighted bill wyman in "Life"?
Posted by: saltoftheearth ()
Date: February 14, 2014 18:27

I still think that Bill's book STONE ALONE gives a better insight in the development of the Stones during the 1960s than Keith's book. Of course every book is written from a personal view and therefore has its lowpoints but the 'diary' style sometimes makes you feel as you were inside the band. It might seem a Little dry sometimes but I qppreciated very much the concise stories about the early years. And as we know fromother books, sex was a central part of it (they certainly did not write 'Let's spend the night together' only from theory).

I did not like Keith's book too much because the story of the band is covered only perfunctory. All in all it is a personal statement and therefore he writes only Little about his bandmates. Of course it has its moments but basically it is no book about the Rolling Stones.

Goto Page: Previous12345Next
Current Page: 3 of 5


Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.

Online Users

Guests: 1463
Record Number of Users: 206 on June 1, 2022 23:50
Record Number of Guests: 9627 on January 2, 2024 23:10

Previous page Next page First page IORR home