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Lightnin'

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Lightnin'

Here you provide an interesting piece of information when you say that the agreements were notarized. In Italy a notarized agreement is public, so to say (meaning anybody could ask a copy of the agreement, provided you know the name of the notary public and the registration number, or similar info). Can we actually see these agreements? Or could you provide me with the information I would need to obtain a copy?

C

No, the agreements were not public and I believe there was even a confidentiality clause attached to it. Therfore, I'm not surprised that there are not many people who could say anything trustworty about the exact content of the internal agreements they signed.

The agreements are public at the chambers of commerce (Kamer van Koophandel) in Amsterdam.

Mathijs

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WilliamPatrickMaynard
Lightnin', all you say above makes perfect sense to me. What do you know of JJHMick's post about Wyman's quote?

I have heard that Taylor twice received a pay out (once in 1975 and once in 1981 or 1982). I do not know if this is true. The story I heard is that he was paid a settlement in exchange for giving up his future lifetime royalties. I don't know if such an agreement would hold up legally if indeed it happened.

The allegation is that he was in bad shape and took a settlement and later realized he had settled for a fraction of what he would have earned. This allegation has nothing to do with songwriting royalties or credits. The story is he agreed to sign away future royalty payments from Promotone and its subsidiaries with the exception of the songwriting royalties stemming from a single song. Is this story something you have heard or believe is plausible?

This is the only story I've heard that might explain MLC's assertion that Mick is only paid by ABKCO and for "Ventilator Blues."

No, there was no large amount of money paid out (Taylor had some savings in the 70s, then signed a record deal in 1978 and was paid an advance, then took a year off after getting disillusioned, then went back to work from '81 with Alvin Lee, John Mayall and Bob Dylan, before doing a lot of touring in Europe, US and Japan. From the money he made from live performances in the 2nd part of the 80s he was able to relocate to L.A.).
No settlement was either offered by the Stones or accepted by Taylor. In essence, they simply instructed the accountants to stop paying out his 1/5 share. When Taylor discovered there had been no payments for a while, he called up to ask what was going on and was told: "Sorry, we were informed you are no longer entitled to royalties".
MLC is right to say that the only record label that pays MT for Stones releases is ABKCO (that is artist royalties - which is interesting since there was never a formal recording deal between MT and ABKCO due to him joining not long before the band left that label). And the only publishing he gets from his tenure with the Stones is his 1/3 credit on Ventilator Blues.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-10-10 01:15 by Lightnin'.

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Lightnin'

It would be very strange if it would be up to the composer to decide how much the other bandmembers get paid out of "his" Publishing Royalties, since this would put the composer in a postion where he can blackmail the others.
Fortunately that is not the case and every label is required by law to pay the composer 8,5 % of dealer price of every copy pressed (in UK) or a statutory rate of 9,10 cents per song per unit sold (in US) and this money is reserved for the authors of the compositions only.

Any composer can decide to transfer parts of his composing rights to the rest of the band, and this is actually very common. Every band his this prolific writer and a great drummer whom doesn't write anything at all. It is common to transfer parts of the composing rights to this poor drummer.

I don't know about the percentages in the UK, but 8.5% seems way too much too me. That would mean that a composer gets about $2 per record -I know a lot of composers who would kill for a deal this big!

Mathijs

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Mathijs

The agreements are public at the chambers of commerce (Kamer van Koophandel) in Amsterdam.

Mathijs

Those are not actual agreements, never mind the contracts signed in 1970. Only the minimal details you are obliged to provide to the Chamber of Commerce to keep a valid registry of your company going are available via that route.

Now I'm back to scratching my head over this and hoping you're wrong. Why wouldn't he take legal action? Please don't say because he believes they're his friends and will make things right one day. After 30 years? Seriously, if this is true, the man is a dolt and I really don't want to believe that is the case. I understand and respect his decision to leave the band and shun the pitfalls of stardom. I believe he is where he wants to be musically, but not getting paid millions for 30 years is just plain stupidity.

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Lightnin'

MLC is right to say that the only record label that pays MT for Stones releases is ABKCO (that is artist royalties - which is interesting since there was never a formal recording deal between MT and ABKCO due to him joining not long before the band left that label). And the only publishing he gets from his tenure with the Stones is his 1/3 credit on Ventilator Blues.

Taylor joined the Stones formerly in June '69, and the Stones left ABKCO in September 1970. There should not be a recording deal between Taylor and ABKCO -there was a deal between the Stones as an entity and ABKCO. Klein didn't give a flying F who was the second guitarist, as long as he could release 'Stones' recordings.

Mathijs

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Mathijs

I don't know about the percentages in the UK, but 8.5% seems way too much too me. That would mean that a composer gets about $2 per record -I know a lot of composers who would kill for a deal this big!

Mathijs

Only if the record is sold at $ 23,50 or something which most CD's don't in this day and age, since selling at that price would make it even harder to compete with free but illegal downloads.

You can find back the 8,5 percentage that is payable to MCPS (for the songwriters in UK) in books explaining the basics of royalty calculation, for instance Donald Passman's "All you need to know about the Music Business".
Or you can check out this site and other places on the internet: [www.mustard-mg.com]
(The third subheader from below, named "Royalty Rate").

Note that the publisher that is hired by the composer (it is not always necessary to do this) will also take a cut (administration costs) from the monies collected at the 8,5 % rate.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-10-10 01:25 by Lightnin'.

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Mathijs

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Lightnin'

MLC is right to say that the only record label that pays MT for Stones releases is ABKCO (that is artist royalties - which is interesting since there was never a formal recording deal between MT and ABKCO due to him joining not long before the band left that label). And the only publishing he gets from his tenure with the Stones is his 1/3 credit on Ventilator Blues.

Taylor joined the Stones formerly in June '69, and the Stones left ABKCO in September 1970. There should not be a recording deal between Taylor and ABKCO -there was a deal between the Stones as an entity and ABKCO. Klein didn't give a flying F who was the second guitarist, as long as he could release 'Stones' recordings.

Mathijs

No but he was courteous enough (without a contractual basis) to pay Taylor for the songs that were part of the ABKCO catalogue and have Taylor on guitar. The same can not be said for the Stones ! There was and is a contractual basis but they don't pay him a penny.
You don't think that the bandmembers were all signing at the time they entered the recording deal with ABKCO ? Of course they were.

All this supposed issues about royalties, yet he gladly met Mick Jagger in a studio to overdub guitar on Plundered My Soul.

If there are issues, but he was still able to put them aside to play on the record, his so called fans should stfu and mind their own business.

The people who post with seeming knowledge of Taylor's various contractual arrangements with the Stones should tell us exactly how they have this inside knowledge or stop posting on the subject.

Speculation, speculation... Yawn...

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mtaylor

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lapaz62
He said that he would like to work in the studio with the Stones as an occasional member only.

Great - both Mick Taylor and Jeff Beck want to work with Stones on a future album. JB on tour, maybe MT as well - that could be a very good way to say farwell to the fans: a tour and a CD with JB and MT included.

Yes this sounds like a winner, I think so much so that we can COUNT on in for the next Stones tour. I'd bet money on it. $US Dollars. peace

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Mathijs

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Lightnin'

It would be very strange if it would be up to the composer to decide how much the other bandmembers get paid out of "his" Publishing Royalties, since this would put the composer in a postion where he can blackmail the others.
Fortunately that is not the case and every label is required by law to pay the composer 8,5 % of dealer price of every copy pressed (in UK) or a statutory rate of 9,10 cents per song per unit sold (in US) and this money is reserved for the authors of the compositions only.

Any composer can decide to transfer parts of his composing rights to the rest of the band, and this is actually very common. Every band his this prolific writer and a great drummer whom doesn't write anything at all. It is common to transfer parts of the composing rights to this poor drummer.

I don't know about the percentages in the UK, but 8.5% seems way too much too me. That would mean that a composer gets about $2 per record -I know a lot of composers who would kill for a deal this big!

Mathijs

that rate sounds about right to me. Speaking from US experience. It can even be more up to around 10% but then a crapload of publishing expenses are siphoned off my the agencies and managers and what have you . The artist is lucky to get 4 or 5 points in the end. Alot of the rip off in the old days were record companies setting up LP presses in Detroit and Cincinnati and manufacturing alot more records for sale that the official numbers given to the people who have points in the income stream. Certainly the artist were not hiring police type agencies to check this part of the operation out and the royalty collecting agencies were not set up to police the companies either. The booking agents run the show these day, the income is all in fees and guarantees for big shows and merch. Still plenty of crooks and good ole boys clubs here in the USA. peace.

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71Tele
The people who post with seeming knowledge of Taylor's various contractual arrangements with the Stones should tell us exactly how they have this inside knowledge or stop posting on the subject.

Go to the Chambers of Commerce in Amsterdam, and all registration is open to the public as all BV's and NV's operating from Amsterdam need to file their yearly fiscal figures. Other sources I can not reveal, so that means I can not post on this subject anymore.

Mathijs

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Mathijs

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71Tele
The people who post with seeming knowledge of Taylor's various contractual arrangements with the Stones should tell us exactly how they have this inside knowledge or stop posting on the subject.

Go to the Chambers of Commerce in Amsterdam, and all registration is open to the public as all BV's and NV's operating from Amsterdam need to file their yearly fiscal figures. Other sources I can not reveal, so that means I can not post on this subject anymore.

Mathijs

Clever remark imo.

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WilliamPatrickMaynard
Now I'm back to scratching my head over this and hoping you're wrong. Why wouldn't he take legal action? Please don't say because he believes they're his friends and will make things right one day. After 30 years? Seriously, if this is true, the man is a dolt and I really don't want to believe that is the case. I understand and respect his decision to leave the band and shun the pitfalls of stardom. I believe he is where he wants to be musically, but not getting paid millions for 30 years is just plain stupidity.

You ask the right questions, but as usual in these Taylor royalty threads, they never get answered. I think it speaks for itself.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-10-10 14:14 by retired_dog.

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WilliamPatrickMaynard
Now I'm back to scratching my head over this and hoping you're wrong. Why wouldn't he take legal action? Please don't say because he believes they're his friends and will make things right one day. After 30 years? Seriously, if this is true, the man is a dolt and I really don't want to believe that is the case. I understand and respect his decision to leave the band and shun the pitfalls of stardom. I believe he is where he wants to be musically, but not getting paid millions for 30 years is just plain stupidity.

You ask the right questions, but as usual in these Taylor royalty threads, they never get answered. I think it speaks for itself.

Mick and Keith are greedy and Taylor is stupid? IMO, I don't think it's as simple as that.

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Lightnin'

Note that the publisher that is hired by the composer (it is not always necessary to do this) will also take a cut (administration costs) from the monies collected at the 8,5 % rate.

But that is what I mean -8.5% steady rate for the composer is not paid anywhere, as publishing fees etc. are being paid from that 8.5%.

Mathijs

If somebody comes in with just words and you write the music you should get a credit but what if somebody comes in with words and a tune in their head? Maybe they just whistle the tune and then you turn that into music is that worth a credit? If somebody covers a song but comes up with an entirely different arrangement do they get a credit?

As neither a musician or a lawyer I can't really answer those questions but I agree with the wise person earlier who said that it probably depends on who you are working with.

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Braincapers
If somebody comes in with just words and you write the music you should get a credit but what if somebody comes in with words and a tune in their head? Maybe they just whistle the tune and then you turn that into music is that worth a credit? If somebody covers a song but comes up with an entirely different arrangement do they get a credit?

As neither a musician or a lawyer I can't really answer those questions but I agree with the wise person earlier who said that it probably depends on who you are working with.

Words: Yes
Whistling: Yes
Covering a song with a new arrangement: A different kind of credit (Composed by:.../Arr. by ...)

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Mathijs

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71Tele
The people who post with seeming knowledge of Taylor's various contractual arrangements with the Stones should tell us exactly how they have this inside knowledge or stop posting on the subject.

Go to the Chambers of Commerce in Amsterdam, and all registration is open to the public as all BV's and NV's operating from Amsterdam need to file their yearly fiscal figures. Other sources I can not reveal, so that means I can not post on this subject anymore.

Mathijs

You can do whatever you like...I'll be in Amsterdam in November, so I can meet you there. My Dutch is not very good though.

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71Tele

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Mathijs

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71Tele
The people who post with seeming knowledge of Taylor's various contractual arrangements with the Stones should tell us exactly how they have this inside knowledge or stop posting on the subject.

Go to the Chambers of Commerce in Amsterdam, and all registration is open to the public as all BV's and NV's operating from Amsterdam need to file their yearly fiscal figures. Other sources I can not reveal, so that means I can not post on this subject anymore.

Mathijs

You can do whatever you like...I'll be in Amsterdam in November, so I can meet you there. My Dutch is not very good though.

Just let me know when you're in Amsterdam -I can show you some good guitar shops! More interesting than fiscal figures, even though they are in English.

Mathijs

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Mathijs

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71Tele

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Mathijs

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71Tele
The people who post with seeming knowledge of Taylor's various contractual arrangements with the Stones should tell us exactly how they have this inside knowledge or stop posting on the subject.

Go to the Chambers of Commerce in Amsterdam, and all registration is open to the public as all BV's and NV's operating from Amsterdam need to file their yearly fiscal figures. Other sources I can not reveal, so that means I can not post on this subject anymore.

Mathijs

You can do whatever you like...I'll be in Amsterdam in November, so I can meet you there. My Dutch is not very good though.

Just let me know when you're in Amsterdam -I can show you some good guitar shops! More interesting than fiscal figures, even though they are in English.

Mathijs

Thank you. I will, Mathijs...Makes sense the documents would be in English, given the contracts were drawn up in English. I will be in your fine city on Nov.8-10.

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Mathijs
Ventilator Blues and Black Limo plainly show that if you have a great riff or idea that becomes part of the body of a song it will be taken up by Jagger and Richards you get credit, simple as that. Mathijs

I am not sure it is that simple. Bill Wyman didn't get credit for Jumping Jack Flash did he?

Tom

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Mathijs
Ventilator Blues and Black Limo plainly show that if you have a great riff or idea that becomes part of the body of a song it will be taken up by Jagger and Richards you get credit, simple as that. Mathijs

I am not sure it is that simple. Bill Wyman didn't get credit for Jumping Jack Flash did he?

Tom

He wrote about it in "Stone Alone", if I remember it well.

Bill Wyman: "We got to the studio early once and... in fact I think it was a rehearsal studio, I don't think it was a recording studio. And there was just myself, Brian and Charlie - the Stones NEVER arrive at the same time, you know - and Mick and Keith hadn't come. And I was just messing about and I just sat down at the piano and started doing this riff, da-daw, da-da-daw, da-da-daw, and then Brian played a bit of guitar and Charlie was doing a rhythm. We were just messing with it for 20 minutes, just filling in time, and Mick and Keith came in and we stopped and they said, 'Hey, that sounded really good, carry on, what is it? And then the next day we recorded it. Mick wrote great lyrics to it and it turned out to be a really good single."

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Amsterdamned

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SweetThing

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Mathijs
Ventilator Blues and Black Limo plainly show that if you have a great riff or idea that becomes part of the body of a song it will be taken up by Jagger and Richards you get credit, simple as that. Mathijs

I am not sure it is that simple. Bill Wyman didn't get credit for Jumping Jack Flash did he?

Tom

He wrote about it in "Stone Alone", if I remember it well.

Bill Wyman: "We got to the studio early once and... in fact I think it was a rehearsal studio, I don't think it was a recording studio. And there was just myself, Brian and Charlie - the Stones NEVER arrive at the same time, you know - and Mick and Keith hadn't come. And I was just messing about and I just sat down at the piano and started doing this riff, da-daw, da-da-daw, da-da-daw, and then Brian played a bit of guitar and Charlie was doing a rhythm. We were just messing with it for 20 minutes, just filling in time, and Mick and Keith came in and we stopped and they said, 'Hey, that sounded really good, carry on, what is it? And then the next day we recorded it. Mick wrote great lyrics to it and it turned out to be a really good single."

You remember wrong, you got it from:

[www.timeisonourside.com]

Anywayz...JJF is a bit weird as Wyman has claimed he wrote the riff and then recorded it the day after while he's not on the actual recording...Did any Stone ever comment on Bill's claims? Does Bill claim the same thing in Rolling with the Stones?

Mathijs

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Mathijs

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Amsterdamned

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SweetThing

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Mathijs
Ventilator Blues and Black Limo plainly show that if you have a great riff or idea that becomes part of the body of a song it will be taken up by Jagger and Richards you get credit, simple as that. Mathijs

I am not sure it is that simple. Bill Wyman didn't get credit for Jumping Jack Flash did he?

Tom

He wrote about it in "Stone Alone", if I remember it well.

Bill Wyman: "We got to the studio early once and... in fact I think it was a rehearsal studio, I don't think it was a recording studio. And there was just myself, Brian and Charlie - the Stones NEVER arrive at the same time, you know - and Mick and Keith hadn't come. And I was just messing about and I just sat down at the piano and started doing this riff, da-daw, da-da-daw, da-da-daw, and then Brian played a bit of guitar and Charlie was doing a rhythm. We were just messing with it for 20 minutes, just filling in time, and Mick and Keith came in and we stopped and they said, 'Hey, that sounded really good, carry on, what is it? And then the next day we recorded it. Mick wrote great lyrics to it and it turned out to be a really good single."

You remember wrong, you got it from:

[www.timeisonourside.com]

Anywayz...JJF is a bit weird as Wyman has claimed he wrote the riff and then recorded it the day after while he's not on the actual recording...Did any Stone ever comment on Bill's claims? Does Bill claim the same thing in Rolling with the Stones?

Mathijs

I think I remember it well.

Let's dismiss Bill's / Keith's quotes as crap: your guess is as good as mine. We -you and me included- get most of our info from books or the internet.
Probably Bill got wiped and Keith dubbed it. Such things happened in a band like the Stones

Here is the link (and there are others saying Bill came up with the riff), not the one you "accidentally" put into my shoes.
[www.rock-songs.com]

I could be mistaken, but I was pretty sure I read Bill's comments in Stone Alone, as Amsterdamned seemingly seems to recall reading them as well.

Bill goes on to state, perhaps in another passage, that he would contribute an idea to a part (arrangement?) of a song, and shortly after it being adapted, he might say something to Mick Jagger along the lines of [paraphrasing from memory here] "wasn't it good I suggested that change there, it worked out well, didn't it?" and Jagger would respond, along the lines of "what do you mean, I came up with that!". [I am not sure that Wyman was making the case for credit in such instances, but he definitely was for JJF though].

As for other Stones...

According to Keith Richards, if his comments in LIFE are credible, Jagger routinely gets riffs/music in his head that should properly be credited to others [that is the context of the passage] and unknowingly appropriates them as his own.. Good old Keef only cites the one well known example of course, Anyone Seen My Baby. Correct me if I am wrong about that.

Reading Ron Wood's book, he does state something along the way of when he joined up he wasn't interested in notion of writing credits and saw it all as "the price of an education" if I recall correctly.. interesting as that was what Keith said on 25X5 regarding getting ripped off by Alan Klein, so apart from the comments Ronnie made concerning the songs where he DID get credit, I am not sure how useful his insights would be otherwise..

And, again, for whatever its worth, Billy Preston seemed a bit put off by the credits on Miss You, didn't he?

I take it all with a grain salt, as probably anyone should that wasn't there and wouldn't really know, because Mick and Keith may well be within their rights, and have an enormous legacy to show, but we are basically referencing partial claims on handful of tunes by long time collaborators not otherwise known to make wild claims for credits...

In Taylor's case, reading between the lines of a number of interviews, it seemed he not only "felt" he deserved credits to a handful of songs, which is one thing, but actually expected to see them for two songs on IORR after he thought he had a verbal agreement from Jagger. A misunderstanding perhaps, but whatever the merits may be, I can only maintain an open mind on the subject.

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MKjan
How do you know that MT was assigned a artist royalty rate equal to 1/5? Has the contract been made public?
Perhaps the artist royalty rate was divided in 5 parts but not equal %'s.
After all, the Stones had been burned enough, they were now taking control of
their publishing as well as the label end. MT was a newcomer..... I am sure Mick and Keith had more clout than MT with how the pie gets divided.

Why no lawsuits from Taylor, and if he was assigned a known rate on the artist royalty, is there an estimate of how much money is spoken for based on the record sales, and how much was actually paid?

I think you need to remember the circumstances of having to go on the road for 3,5 years of not touring and the need to bring along an excellent lead guitarist, in order to compete with the guitar based bands that had become very successful during the Stones' touring hiatus (like Led Zep, Cream and Jimi Hendrix Experience).
They were thinking of having MT on board for the long run and wanted to plan a long term solid foundation for the band, after the legal nightmare with Allen Klein. If they had given Taylor, Wyman and Watts a smaller percentage from the proceeds of future activities, that would have been a very wonky basis and probably would have cause internal tension from the start. (I don't think BW and CW would have settled for that either, after especially as they were getting 20% from the Decca/ABKCO royalties before also !)
Also take into account that MT and KR were guaranteed to be earning more money anyway, since they were getting larger cheques than the others where it concerns Publishing and Performing Rights. Composers are in a different category than other bandmembers when it comes to the calculations of the Performing Rights Organisations (PROs) and therefore receive more income from airplay.

No, I could easily see the artist royalty rate divided into 5 parts, with equal
parts for Mick, Keith, Bill and Charlie, but a lower rate for Mick Taylor, the new guy. He was coming into a great established band and I doubt he would even expect the same rate.
Remember the news conference when Mick said "financially dissatisfied". I think it was indeed the price of an education(as Keith later put it), and they learned from Klein,et al very well.

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His Majesty
All this supposed issues about royalties, yet he gladly met Mick Jagger in a studio to overdub guitar on Plundered My Soul.

If there are issues, but he was still able to put them aside to play on the record, his so called fans should stfu and mind their own business.

O Majesty - you were there in the room with Jagger & Taylor to know Taylor "gladly" met with Jagger - he hadn't played with him since the early 80's
and was more curious than anything, So I for one will keep beating on this horse,
till I hear the Glimmers do what's right by Taylor, by restoring his "ARTISTS"
rights that they stopped paying him in the 80's..

MLC