Tell Me :
Talk
Is this real or is it fake? Who gives a s..t? I love it!
I don't expect perfection. I just expect (or want) the real thing, warts 'n' all... something like this:
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-09-23 23:57 by Sleepy City.
Hi Flilflam, do you love Blondie behind the curtains playing guitar too?!
I agree, besides, once I get my Bose headphones on and a couple of belts of booze in me I couldn't care less and probably couldn't tell if I was stone sober anyway!
If we are going to outlaw or bitch about overdubbing then the same should apply to the studio and the making of albums. Maybe a band should be forced to all appear in the studio and do one take of a song with no editing whatsoever?
Then the questions still remain,who did and how has it been done...
Funny enough,Blondie for example isn´t even credited for playing guitar on Shine A Light movie.
Thank God for that!
Those solos were obviously not overdubbed. Sorry you don't want to hear that, evidently.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-09-24 00:37 by rocker1.
That's correct.
Think you and flimflam are missing the entire point.
A studio record never purports to be a 'live' document. Its an attempt, in many ways, at capturing a song for posterity in the 'best' way an artist can manage.
The point of releasing a live record is to capture a 'moment' and to showcase the artist in a 'live' setting. That point is diminished the more you add studio overdubs. In the case of the Biggest Bang DVD, its made even worse by the fact that the band couldnt even be arsed doing it themselves, but got two of their guitar techs to add them!
While some studio corrections may be understandable for technical reasons, how can you seriously trumpet an act as a great live band, when your evidence of their performing greatness is a release where a sizeable amount of the music you're enjoying is done in a studio.
I can kind of understand a bit of dubbing being done on a live DVD to an extent if its the only performance that was filmed, but if a band is recording about 10-12 shows for a live CD, how difficult can it be to get an hour's worth of releasable material out of it?
LYL was ruined in the studio, because in many cases the available recordings of the shows that were used indicate that the original performances were perfectly adequate.
There are at least seven different concerts featured on Love You Live across three different years. When you factor in how many shows were played in each of the locations used, there were a total of 19 shows in LA, Toronto, London and Paris. There were other shows that were recorded for a possible live album (Cleveland, San Francisco and Lyon certainly were) but which, for various reasons, werent used (I think I read once that something like 32 shows were taped by the mobile unit for LYL)
'Fingerprint File', for example, has at least seven 'edits', removing over two minutes of the performance's original length. Only about two or three songs do not have studio vocals added.
The amount of studio time spent in overdubbing a record like this - and one with such an ironic title - when you have about 60 hours of live material to choose from just baffles me, although not as much as reading that expecting a 'live' record to be well...'live' or at least close to it is being 'overly critical'.
Baffles me too, and it baffled me at the time to read that they were overdubbing on a live album when I read about it in Creem or Crawdaddy or one of those long-lost rock magazines of the 70s. I even remember Mick's scarcastic comment to the interview when asked about it. Something about "the Geneva Convention of overdubbing on live albums". I was rather shocked. Those were more innocent times, and I really thought that a "live" album was, well, live...
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-09-24 05:29 by 71Tele.
Yeah, a true soundboard of LA 7/13 (or even 7/9), with original vocals, would've surpassed LYL. And even the Mocambo stuff sounds great in its raw form, without the "32 additional guitars" on Crackin' Up. There are probably whole shows even from '76 (Franfurt, perhaps?) that if recorded professionally would've surpassed the largely vocal-overdubbed Paris content that ended up on LYL. And heck, where's that Toronto '75 soundboard?? It's nowhere to be found, right? That also would be such a great addition to the live canon...And heck, the live version of Paris '76 really doesn't sound any worse than the overdubbed vocals Jagger tacked on to LYL. Yeah, I also never understood the point of the vocal overdubs here.
Crossing posts here a bit, the one live edit I'll always give them credit for actually doing is the short edit they did to the Detroit '78 When the Whip Comes Down, which was actually strengthened by the cut that appeared on the version officially released on Sucking in the 70's. But that was simply a cut, not an overdub. Kudos to whomever made that edit. I doubt it was a Stones member. Cut circling back to the topic at hand...that was NOT an overdub!
The best goddamn vinyl record I have is the LA gigs from 1975, a compilation from the 10th and the 13th that came in a black box. As much as I love Ya Ya's and LYL, nothing, at least to me, compares with that. Releasable? No. But still...
In the defense of LYL -it's only vocals that where added, and the tracks where edited down in order to fit a regular '75/'76 show AND one side with El Mocambo tracks. Sure, we would love it if they'd release a full, unedited show, but I doubt that would be a very commercial move.
In addition, all live albums until Flashpoint feature edits and vocal overdubs, but that's about it. There's the odd guitar dub like Taylor's rhythm guitar on Carol, a third guitar in the bridge of Let's Spend from SL, but nothing drastic.
Overdubs aren't bad as long as they aren't too obvious -it took us 40 years to even find out about the Carol overdub. With Flashpoint and Austin it IS bad as the overdubs stick out like a sore thumb, focussing the listener on the fact the the Stones can't deliver live anymore. The basis of their existance, really.
Mathijs
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What is So Wrong with Overdubbing?
Posted by:
flilflam
()
Date: September 23, 2011 23:52
I love the guitar solo work by Keith and Mick Taylor on Get Yer Ya Ya's Out. Those solos were obviously overdubbed in the studio and made to sound as if it were being played live. Hear all those screams in the background? Could those have been live or used from a previous concert? So what if some overdubbing was done in Austin, Texas. The purpose is not to deceive but to enhance the listening pleasure. It seems strange that no one complains about the dubbing with the early Stones music.
Should a great actor be criticized if he must take twenty takes to get a scene done correctly? Should an actor be bashed for wearing make up to appear older, younger, or tougher. Would we think less of an actor if we learned that he used a stunt double much of the time.
The Stones are not perfect, nor should anyone expect perfection at a live concert in front of thousands of screaming fans. This is all show business. I have no problem with the use of overdubbing. I believe it is used by all or most of the rock bands anyway. Some fans are being overly critical of our Stones!!!!
Should a great actor be criticized if he must take twenty takes to get a scene done correctly? Should an actor be bashed for wearing make up to appear older, younger, or tougher. Would we think less of an actor if we learned that he used a stunt double much of the time.
The Stones are not perfect, nor should anyone expect perfection at a live concert in front of thousands of screaming fans. This is all show business. I have no problem with the use of overdubbing. I believe it is used by all or most of the rock bands anyway. Some fans are being overly critical of our Stones!!!!
Re: What is So Wrong with Overdubbing?
Posted by:
keefbajaga
()
Date: September 23, 2011 23:54
What is wrong with having a good shit?
Re: What is So Wrong with Overdubbing?
Posted by:
flilflam
()
Date: September 23, 2011 23:55
Is this real or is it fake? Who gives a s..t? I love it!
Re: What is So Wrong with Overdubbing?
Posted by:
Sleepy City
()
Date: September 23, 2011 23:55
Quote
flilflam
The Stones are not perfect, nor should anyone expect perfection at a live concert in front of thousands of screaming fans.
I don't expect perfection. I just expect (or want) the real thing, warts 'n' all... something like this:
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-09-23 23:57 by Sleepy City.
Re: What is So Wrong with Overdubbing?
Posted by:
KRiffhard
()
Date: September 24, 2011 00:02
Quote
flilflam
Is this real or is it fake? Who gives a s..t? I love it!
Hi Flilflam, do you love Blondie behind the curtains playing guitar too?!
Re: What is So Wrong with Overdubbing?
Posted by:
rocker1
()
Date: September 24, 2011 00:09
Incorrect assumption. Those solos you hear on Sympathy are not overdubs, but live. In fact, there's some real effort that has gone into identifying overdubs on Ya-Ya's and they are less extensive than you might think. Mostly it's Jagger's vocals. (Six of the ten tracks have some form of vocal overdub.)
The only unconfirmed but possible guitar overdub is MT on Carol. The rest of the instrumental work has been traced/confirmed as actual live performances.
I did not deduce this, but have followed the wonderful work of ChrisM42 at the website below and give him full credit.
See this great review of sources and overdubs of Ya-Ya's
[www.rollingstonesnet.com]
The Rolling Stones - Get Yer Ya-Ya's Out!
With apologies to ChrisM42's amazing work on this, I copy below from his website noted above.
A Summary of Sources and Overdubs on "Get Yer Ya-Ya's Out!"
Opening words - Sam Cutler: MSG 11/27/69, 11/28/69 1st, and ?
- Opening words - Jagger: "watch it", overdubbed.
1. Jumpin' Jack Flash: Music MSG 11/27/69, vocal overdubbed.
- Spoken Words: MSG 11/27/69, edited.
2. Carol: MSG 11/28/69 1st, Mick Taylor's guitar piece is possibly overdubbed.
- Spoken Words: "Thank You" from MSG 11/27/69.
3. Stray Cat Blues: Music Baltimore 11/26/69, vocals overdubbed. Two musical "markers" were identified. Missing Turnaround Verse #4 ("It's no hangin' mat-tar..."). A lessor possibility: 11/28/69 1st. This is noted due to the "Champaign Variation", which is a close approximation to "Ya-Ya's" lyrics, and therefore a possibility in a live '69 performance.
Spoken Words: Possibly MSG 11/28/69 2nd.
4. Love In Vain: Baltimore 11/26/69, no overdubs.
Spoken Words: MSG 11/28/69 2nd, edited.
5. Midnight Rambler: MSG 11/28/69 2nd, no overdubs.
Spoken Words (Background): - MSG 11/28/69 2nd.
6. Sympathy for the Devil: MSG 11/28/69 1st. Verse #4 is edited out.
Spoken Words: 11/28/69 1st or 2nd possibly before Satisfaction.
7. Live With Me: Music MSG 11/28/69 2nd, vocals overdubbed.
Spoken Words: MSG 11/28/69 1st "Aw New York City..." also in the "Gimme Shelter" movie before Jumpin' Jack Flash.
8. Little Queenie: Music MSG 11/28/69 1st, vocals overdubbed.
Spoken Words: MSG 11/28/69 1st or 2nd. "Well all rights..." also in the "Gimme Shelter" movie after Jumpin' Jack Flash.
9. Honky Tonk Women: Music MSG 11/27/69, vocals overdubbed. Missing the "New York Verse", which would have been Verse #3 in a "Paris Verse" version of the song. Also missing the added chorus that would have separated the two verses.
Spoken Words: Overdubbed (Note the "electronic noise" that is present). A lessor possibility: 11/28/69 1st or 2nd, or Baltimore 11/26/69.
10. Street Fighting Man: Music MSG 11/28/69 1st, vocals overdubbed. A lessor possibility: Music Baltimore 11/26/69, vocals overdubbed.
MSG '69 Tracks from the "Gimme Shelter" movie:
Spoken Words: MSG 11/28/69, 1st show.
1. Jumpin' Jack Flash: MSG 11/28/69, 1st show.
Spoken Words (after JJF): "Thank you, whoo baby..." lines are edited MSG 11/28/69, 1st show. The edited section of "well all rights" are from GYYYO before Honky Tonk Women. The "I think you really, you really dressed up..." section is spliced in from Oakland, November 9, 1969 2nd show.
Spoken Words (before Satisfaction): Opening of MSG 11/28/69 2nd (Third line - "Okay ba-by").
2. Satisfaction: Hybrid/combination of MSG 11/28/69 1st and 11/28/69 2nd. Spliced at Line 10. Chorus #2 and Verse #2 have been edited out of the song.
- Spoken Words: MSG 11/28/69 1st or 2nd
3. Love In Vain: Baltimore 11/26/69. Verse #2 is edited out.
Spoken Words: Opening of MSG 11/28/69 2nd (First two lines- "Far out", "Sorry you had to wait")
4. Honky Tonk Women: Hybrid/combination of MSG 11/27/69 and MSG 11/28/69 2nd. Spliced at Line 8.
Spoken Words: Two sources - MSG 11/27/69 ("Trouser" lines), and Altamont 12/6/69 ("We're gonna kiss you good-bye" lines).
5. Street Fighting Man: MSG 11/28/69, 2nd show. No overdubs.
Summary of "Get Yer Ya-Ya's Out!" Recording Information
Six of ten songs are vocal overdubs.
There is one possibility of guitar or instrumental overdubbing.
One song and one instrumental track are from Baltimore 11/26/69.
Two instrumental tracks are from 11/27/69.
Two songs and two instrumental tracks are determined to be 11/28/69 1st, by process of elimination.
One song and one instrumental track are from 11/28/69 2nd.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-09-24 00:10 by rocker1.
The only unconfirmed but possible guitar overdub is MT on Carol. The rest of the instrumental work has been traced/confirmed as actual live performances.
I did not deduce this, but have followed the wonderful work of ChrisM42 at the website below and give him full credit.
See this great review of sources and overdubs of Ya-Ya's
[www.rollingstonesnet.com]
The Rolling Stones - Get Yer Ya-Ya's Out!
With apologies to ChrisM42's amazing work on this, I copy below from his website noted above.
A Summary of Sources and Overdubs on "Get Yer Ya-Ya's Out!"
Opening words - Sam Cutler: MSG 11/27/69, 11/28/69 1st, and ?
- Opening words - Jagger: "watch it", overdubbed.
1. Jumpin' Jack Flash: Music MSG 11/27/69, vocal overdubbed.
- Spoken Words: MSG 11/27/69, edited.
2. Carol: MSG 11/28/69 1st, Mick Taylor's guitar piece is possibly overdubbed.
- Spoken Words: "Thank You" from MSG 11/27/69.
3. Stray Cat Blues: Music Baltimore 11/26/69, vocals overdubbed. Two musical "markers" were identified. Missing Turnaround Verse #4 ("It's no hangin' mat-tar..."). A lessor possibility: 11/28/69 1st. This is noted due to the "Champaign Variation", which is a close approximation to "Ya-Ya's" lyrics, and therefore a possibility in a live '69 performance.
Spoken Words: Possibly MSG 11/28/69 2nd.
4. Love In Vain: Baltimore 11/26/69, no overdubs.
Spoken Words: MSG 11/28/69 2nd, edited.
5. Midnight Rambler: MSG 11/28/69 2nd, no overdubs.
Spoken Words (Background): - MSG 11/28/69 2nd.
6. Sympathy for the Devil: MSG 11/28/69 1st. Verse #4 is edited out.
Spoken Words: 11/28/69 1st or 2nd possibly before Satisfaction.
7. Live With Me: Music MSG 11/28/69 2nd, vocals overdubbed.
Spoken Words: MSG 11/28/69 1st "Aw New York City..." also in the "Gimme Shelter" movie before Jumpin' Jack Flash.
8. Little Queenie: Music MSG 11/28/69 1st, vocals overdubbed.
Spoken Words: MSG 11/28/69 1st or 2nd. "Well all rights..." also in the "Gimme Shelter" movie after Jumpin' Jack Flash.
9. Honky Tonk Women: Music MSG 11/27/69, vocals overdubbed. Missing the "New York Verse", which would have been Verse #3 in a "Paris Verse" version of the song. Also missing the added chorus that would have separated the two verses.
Spoken Words: Overdubbed (Note the "electronic noise" that is present). A lessor possibility: 11/28/69 1st or 2nd, or Baltimore 11/26/69.
10. Street Fighting Man: Music MSG 11/28/69 1st, vocals overdubbed. A lessor possibility: Music Baltimore 11/26/69, vocals overdubbed.
MSG '69 Tracks from the "Gimme Shelter" movie:
Spoken Words: MSG 11/28/69, 1st show.
1. Jumpin' Jack Flash: MSG 11/28/69, 1st show.
Spoken Words (after JJF): "Thank you, whoo baby..." lines are edited MSG 11/28/69, 1st show. The edited section of "well all rights" are from GYYYO before Honky Tonk Women. The "I think you really, you really dressed up..." section is spliced in from Oakland, November 9, 1969 2nd show.
Spoken Words (before Satisfaction): Opening of MSG 11/28/69 2nd (Third line - "Okay ba-by").
2. Satisfaction: Hybrid/combination of MSG 11/28/69 1st and 11/28/69 2nd. Spliced at Line 10. Chorus #2 and Verse #2 have been edited out of the song.
- Spoken Words: MSG 11/28/69 1st or 2nd
3. Love In Vain: Baltimore 11/26/69. Verse #2 is edited out.
Spoken Words: Opening of MSG 11/28/69 2nd (First two lines- "Far out", "Sorry you had to wait")
4. Honky Tonk Women: Hybrid/combination of MSG 11/27/69 and MSG 11/28/69 2nd. Spliced at Line 8.
Spoken Words: Two sources - MSG 11/27/69 ("Trouser" lines), and Altamont 12/6/69 ("We're gonna kiss you good-bye" lines).
5. Street Fighting Man: MSG 11/28/69, 2nd show. No overdubs.
Summary of "Get Yer Ya-Ya's Out!" Recording Information
Six of ten songs are vocal overdubs.
There is one possibility of guitar or instrumental overdubbing.
One song and one instrumental track are from Baltimore 11/26/69.
Two instrumental tracks are from 11/27/69.
Two songs and two instrumental tracks are determined to be 11/28/69 1st, by process of elimination.
One song and one instrumental track are from 11/28/69 2nd.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-09-24 00:10 by rocker1.
Re: What is So Wrong with Overdubbing?
Posted by:
thewatchman
()
Date: September 24, 2011 00:13
Quote
flilflam
I love the guitar solo work by Keith and Mick Taylor on Get Yer Ya Ya's Out. Those solos were obviously overdubbed in the studio and made to sound as if it were being played live. Hear all those screams in the background? Could those have been live or used from a previous concert? So what if some overdubbing was done in Austin, Texas. The purpose is not to deceive but to enhance the listening pleasure. It seems strange that no one complains about the dubbing with the early Stones music.
Should a great actor be criticized if he must take twenty takes to get a scene done correctly? Should an actor be bashed for wearing make up to appear older, younger, or tougher. Would we think less of an actor if we learned that he used a stunt double much of the time.
The Stones are not perfect, nor should anyone expect perfection at a live concert in front of thousands of screaming fans. This is all show business. I have no problem with the use of overdubbing. I believe it is used by all or most of the rock bands anyway. Some fans are being overly critical of our Stones!!!!
I agree, besides, once I get my Bose headphones on and a couple of belts of booze in me I couldn't care less and probably couldn't tell if I was stone sober anyway!
If we are going to outlaw or bitch about overdubbing then the same should apply to the studio and the making of albums. Maybe a band should be forced to all appear in the studio and do one take of a song with no editing whatsoever?
Re: What is So Wrong with Overdubbing?
Posted by:
rootsman
()
Date: September 24, 2011 00:15
Thanks, rocker1!
Re: What is So Wrong with Overdubbing?
Posted by:
flilflam
()
Date: September 24, 2011 00:16
I want the warts removed. This piece sucks. It is played at a very fast pace, and Charlie's drumming is not in sync with Jagger's singing.
Re: What is So Wrong with Overdubbing?
Posted by:
Rockman
()
Date: September 24, 2011 00:17
....chicks wear make-up ....
ROCKMAN
ROCKMAN
Re: What is So Wrong with Overdubbing?
Posted by:
flilflam
()
Date: September 24, 2011 00:20
Quote
rocker1
Incorrect assumption. Those solos you hear on Sympathy are not overdubs, but live. In fact, there's some real effort that has gone into identifying overdubs on Ya-Ya's and they are less extensive than you might think. Mostly it's Jagger's vocals. (Six of the ten tracks have some form of vocal overdub.)
The only unconfirmed but possible guitar overdub is MT on Carol. The rest of the instrumental work has been traced/confirmed as actual live performances.
I did not deduce this, but have followed the wonderful work of ChrisM42 at the website below and give him full credit.
See this great review of sources and overdubs of Ya-Ya's
So you admit that overdubbing was done on GYYYO. That is what I wanted to hear. Thanks.
[www.rollingstonesnet.com]
The Rolling Stones - Get Yer Ya-Ya's Out!
With apologies to ChrisM42's amazing work on this, I copy below from his website noted above.
A Summary of Sources and Overdubs on "Get Yer Ya-Ya's Out!"
Opening words - Sam Cutler: MSG 11/27/69, 11/28/69 1st, and ?
- Opening words - Jagger: "watch it", overdubbed.
1. Jumpin' Jack Flash: Music MSG 11/27/69, vocal overdubbed.
- Spoken Words: MSG 11/27/69, edited.
2. Carol: MSG 11/28/69 1st, Mick Taylor's guitar piece is possibly overdubbed.
- Spoken Words: "Thank You" from MSG 11/27/69.
3. Stray Cat Blues: Music Baltimore 11/26/69, vocals overdubbed. Two musical "markers" were identified. Missing Turnaround Verse #4 ("It's no hangin' mat-tar..."). A lessor possibility: 11/28/69 1st. This is noted due to the "Champaign Variation", which is a close approximation to "Ya-Ya's" lyrics, and therefore a possibility in a live '69 performance.
Spoken Words: Possibly MSG 11/28/69 2nd.
4. Love In Vain: Baltimore 11/26/69, no overdubs.
Spoken Words: MSG 11/28/69 2nd, edited.
5. Midnight Rambler: MSG 11/28/69 2nd, no overdubs.
Spoken Words (Background): - MSG 11/28/69 2nd.
6. Sympathy for the Devil: MSG 11/28/69 1st. Verse #4 is edited out.
Spoken Words: 11/28/69 1st or 2nd possibly before Satisfaction.
7. Live With Me: Music MSG 11/28/69 2nd, vocals overdubbed.
Spoken Words: MSG 11/28/69 1st "Aw New York City..." also in the "Gimme Shelter" movie before Jumpin' Jack Flash.
8. Little Queenie: Music MSG 11/28/69 1st, vocals overdubbed.
Spoken Words: MSG 11/28/69 1st or 2nd. "Well all rights..." also in the "Gimme Shelter" movie after Jumpin' Jack Flash.
9. Honky Tonk Women: Music MSG 11/27/69, vocals overdubbed. Missing the "New York Verse", which would have been Verse #3 in a "Paris Verse" version of the song. Also missing the added chorus that would have separated the two verses.
Spoken Words: Overdubbed (Note the "electronic noise" that is present). A lessor possibility: 11/28/69 1st or 2nd, or Baltimore 11/26/69.
10. Street Fighting Man: Music MSG 11/28/69 1st, vocals overdubbed. A lessor possibility: Music Baltimore 11/26/69, vocals overdubbed.
MSG '69 Tracks from the "Gimme Shelter" movie:
Spoken Words: MSG 11/28/69, 1st show.
1. Jumpin' Jack Flash: MSG 11/28/69, 1st show.
Spoken Words (after JJF): "Thank you, whoo baby..." lines are edited MSG 11/28/69, 1st show. The edited section of "well all rights" are from GYYYO before Honky Tonk Women. The "I think you really, you really dressed up..." section is spliced in from Oakland, November 9, 1969 2nd show.
Spoken Words (before Satisfaction): Opening of MSG 11/28/69 2nd (Third line - "Okay ba-by").
2. Satisfaction: Hybrid/combination of MSG 11/28/69 1st and 11/28/69 2nd. Spliced at Line 10. Chorus #2 and Verse #2 have been edited out of the song.
- Spoken Words: MSG 11/28/69 1st or 2nd
3. Love In Vain: Baltimore 11/26/69. Verse #2 is edited out.
Spoken Words: Opening of MSG 11/28/69 2nd (First two lines- "Far out", "Sorry you had to wait")
4. Honky Tonk Women: Hybrid/combination of MSG 11/27/69 and MSG 11/28/69 2nd. Spliced at Line 8.
Spoken Words: Two sources - MSG 11/27/69 ("Trouser" lines), and Altamont 12/6/69 ("We're gonna kiss you good-bye" lines).
5. Street Fighting Man: MSG 11/28/69, 2nd show. No overdubs.
Summary of "Get Yer Ya-Ya's Out!" Recording Information
Six of ten songs are vocal overdubs.
There is one possibility of guitar or instrumental overdubbing.
One song and one instrumental track are from Baltimore 11/26/69.
Two instrumental tracks are from 11/27/69.
Two songs and two instrumental tracks are determined to be 11/28/69 1st, by process of elimination.
One song and one instrumental track are from 11/28/69 2nd.
Re: What is So Wrong with Overdubbing?
Posted by:
shortfatfanny
()
Date: September 24, 2011 00:24
Quote
fliflam
So what if some overdubbing was done in Austin, Texas.
Then the questions still remain,who did and how has it been done...
Funny enough,Blondie for example isn´t even credited for playing guitar on Shine A Light movie.
Re: What is So Wrong with Overdubbing?
Posted by:
thewatchman
()
Date: September 24, 2011 00:25
Quote
Rockman
....chicks wear make-up ....
Thank God for that!
Re: What is So Wrong with Overdubbing?
Posted by:
rocker1
()
Date: September 24, 2011 00:32
Quote
flilflam
Those solos were obviously overdubbed in the studio and made to sound as if it were being played live.
Quote
flilflam
So you admit that overdubbing was done on GYYYO. That is what I wanted to hear. Thanks.
Those solos were obviously not overdubbed. Sorry you don't want to hear that, evidently.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-09-24 00:37 by rocker1.
Re: What is So Wrong with Overdubbing?
Posted by:
thewatchman
()
Date: September 24, 2011 00:44
So it's OK to add and take away from studio albums but not OK to add and take away from live performances captured on film?
Re: What is So Wrong with Overdubbing?
Posted by:
Sleepy City
()
Date: September 24, 2011 00:47
Quote
thewatchman
So it's OK to add and take away from studio albums but not OK to add and take away from live performances captured on film?
That's correct.
Re: What is So Wrong with Overdubbing?
Posted by:
texas fan
()
Date: September 24, 2011 01:04
There's a lot wrong with overdubbing a live show, I think, because it's presented as something real -- an authentic documentation of the performance.
It is true, of course, that it has been going on a long time with the Stones -- Austin is nothing new, other than possibly the number of overdubs, which still seems to be the subject of some disagreement. A couple of days after that show, there were rumors around Austin that there was a tape, but it never surfaced. It would be nice to compare.
What really bugs me about Jagger's overdubs (whether Ya Yas or Austin or whatever) is that the original track that he was apparently dissatisfied with is often quite good. Something fell short of his standards, obviously, but as a fan, I think I would have enjoyed the original version just fine.
It is true, of course, that it has been going on a long time with the Stones -- Austin is nothing new, other than possibly the number of overdubs, which still seems to be the subject of some disagreement. A couple of days after that show, there were rumors around Austin that there was a tape, but it never surfaced. It would be nice to compare.
What really bugs me about Jagger's overdubs (whether Ya Yas or Austin or whatever) is that the original track that he was apparently dissatisfied with is often quite good. Something fell short of his standards, obviously, but as a fan, I think I would have enjoyed the original version just fine.
Re: What is So Wrong with Overdubbing?
Posted by:
Gazza
()
Date: September 24, 2011 01:17
Quote
thewatchman
So it's OK to add and take away from studio albums but not OK to add and take away from live performances captured on film?
Think you and flimflam are missing the entire point.
A studio record never purports to be a 'live' document. Its an attempt, in many ways, at capturing a song for posterity in the 'best' way an artist can manage.
The point of releasing a live record is to capture a 'moment' and to showcase the artist in a 'live' setting. That point is diminished the more you add studio overdubs. In the case of the Biggest Bang DVD, its made even worse by the fact that the band couldnt even be arsed doing it themselves, but got two of their guitar techs to add them!
While some studio corrections may be understandable for technical reasons, how can you seriously trumpet an act as a great live band, when your evidence of their performing greatness is a release where a sizeable amount of the music you're enjoying is done in a studio.
I can kind of understand a bit of dubbing being done on a live DVD to an extent if its the only performance that was filmed, but if a band is recording about 10-12 shows for a live CD, how difficult can it be to get an hour's worth of releasable material out of it?
Re: What is So Wrong with Overdubbing?
Posted by:
71Tele
()
Date: September 24, 2011 03:36
This is one big problem I have always had with Love You Live. All that overdubbing. And to what end? The end result (apart from the El Mocambo side) is pretty lame. I've heard bootlegs with more life and energy. You can "help" a live album by overdubbing on it, and you can kill it too.
Re: What is So Wrong with Overdubbing?
Posted by:
stones78
()
Date: September 24, 2011 03:39
Nothing wrong with overdubbing, but then don't advertise it as a live record, it should say "mostly live" or something. That Mocambo example is a good one, there are between 5 and 32 guitars more or less overdubbed in 'Crackin' Up' alone.
Re: What is So Wrong with Overdubbing?
Posted by:
Gazza
()
Date: September 24, 2011 05:14
Quote
71Tele
This is one big problem I have always had with Love You Live. All that overdubbing. And to what end? The end result (apart from the El Mocambo side) is pretty lame. I've heard bootlegs with more life and energy. You can "help" a live album by overdubbing on it, and you can kill it too.
LYL was ruined in the studio, because in many cases the available recordings of the shows that were used indicate that the original performances were perfectly adequate.
There are at least seven different concerts featured on Love You Live across three different years. When you factor in how many shows were played in each of the locations used, there were a total of 19 shows in LA, Toronto, London and Paris. There were other shows that were recorded for a possible live album (Cleveland, San Francisco and Lyon certainly were) but which, for various reasons, werent used (I think I read once that something like 32 shows were taped by the mobile unit for LYL)
'Fingerprint File', for example, has at least seven 'edits', removing over two minutes of the performance's original length. Only about two or three songs do not have studio vocals added.
The amount of studio time spent in overdubbing a record like this - and one with such an ironic title - when you have about 60 hours of live material to choose from just baffles me, although not as much as reading that expecting a 'live' record to be well...'live' or at least close to it is being 'overly critical'.
Re: What is So Wrong with Overdubbing?
Posted by:
71Tele
()
Date: September 24, 2011 05:28
Quote
GazzaQuote
71Tele
This is one big problem I have always had with Love You Live. All that overdubbing. And to what end? The end result (apart from the El Mocambo side) is pretty lame. I've heard bootlegs with more life and energy. You can "help" a live album by overdubbing on it, and you can kill it too.
LYL was ruined in the studio, because in many cases the available recordings of the shows that were used indicate that the original performances were perfectly adequate.
There are at least seven different concerts featured on Love You Live across three different years. When you factor in how many shows were played in each of the locations used, there were a total of 19 shows in LA, Toronto, London and Paris. There were other shows that were recorded for a possible live album (Cleveland, San Francisco and Lyon certainly were) but which, for various reasons, werent used (I think I read once that something like 32 shows were taped by the mobile unit for LYL)
'Fingerprint File', for example, has at least seven 'edits', removing over two minutes of the performance's original length. Only about two or three songs do not have studio vocals added.
The amount of studio time spent in overdubbing a record like this - and one with such an ironic title - when you have about 60 hours of live material to choose from just baffles me, although not as much as reading that expecting a 'live' record to be well...'live' or at least close to it is being 'overly critical'.
Baffles me too, and it baffled me at the time to read that they were overdubbing on a live album when I read about it in Creem or Crawdaddy or one of those long-lost rock magazines of the 70s. I even remember Mick's scarcastic comment to the interview when asked about it. Something about "the Geneva Convention of overdubbing on live albums". I was rather shocked. Those were more innocent times, and I really thought that a "live" album was, well, live...
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-09-24 05:29 by 71Tele.
Re: What is So Wrong with Overdubbing?
Posted by:
rocker1
()
Date: September 24, 2011 06:42
Quote
71TeleQuote
GazzaQuote
71Tele
This is one big problem I have always had with Love You Live. All that overdubbing. And to what end? The end result (apart from the El Mocambo side) is pretty lame. I've heard bootlegs with more life and energy. You can "help" a live album by overdubbing on it, and you can kill it too.
LYL was ruined in the studio, because in many cases the available recordings of the shows that were used indicate that the original performances were perfectly adequate.
There are at least seven different concerts featured on Love You Live across three different years. When you factor in how many shows were played in each of the locations used, there were a total of 19 shows in LA, Toronto, London and Paris. There were other shows that were recorded for a possible live album (Cleveland, San Francisco and Lyon certainly were) but which, for various reasons, werent used (I think I read once that something like 32 shows were taped by the mobile unit for LYL)
'Fingerprint File', for example, has at least seven 'edits', removing over two minutes of the performance's original length. Only about two or three songs do not have studio vocals added.
The amount of studio time spent in overdubbing a record like this - and one with such an ironic title - when you have about 60 hours of live material to choose from just baffles me, although not as much as reading that expecting a 'live' record to be well...'live' or at least close to it is being 'overly critical'.
Baffles me too, and it baffled me at the time to read that they were overdubbing on a live album when I read about it in Creem or Crawdaddy or one of those long-lost rock magazines of the 70s. I even remember Mick's scarcastic comment to the interview when asked about it. Something about "the Geneva Convention of overdubbing on live albums". I was rather shocked. Those were more innocent times, and I really thought that a "live" album was, well, live...
Yeah, a true soundboard of LA 7/13 (or even 7/9), with original vocals, would've surpassed LYL. And even the Mocambo stuff sounds great in its raw form, without the "32 additional guitars" on Crackin' Up. There are probably whole shows even from '76 (Franfurt, perhaps?) that if recorded professionally would've surpassed the largely vocal-overdubbed Paris content that ended up on LYL. And heck, where's that Toronto '75 soundboard?? It's nowhere to be found, right? That also would be such a great addition to the live canon...And heck, the live version of Paris '76 really doesn't sound any worse than the overdubbed vocals Jagger tacked on to LYL. Yeah, I also never understood the point of the vocal overdubs here.
Crossing posts here a bit, the one live edit I'll always give them credit for actually doing is the short edit they did to the Detroit '78 When the Whip Comes Down, which was actually strengthened by the cut that appeared on the version officially released on Sucking in the 70's. But that was simply a cut, not an overdub. Kudos to whomever made that edit. I doubt it was a Stones member. Cut circling back to the topic at hand...that was NOT an overdub!
Re: What is So Wrong with Overdubbing?
Posted by:
71Tele
()
Date: September 24, 2011 07:04
Rocker, you're right. One of the reasons I was so disappointed with LYL when it came out was that I saw them in LA in '75, and then had an excellent soundboard vinyl boot from one of those shows (I believe it was called "Charlie Watts And His Rolling Stones" on colored vinyl - those were the days!) The show and bootleg were great. The Paris stuff on LYL sounds flaccid and lifeless. Why overdub when you have great live recordings?
Re: What is So Wrong with Overdubbing?
Posted by:
Baxter Thwaites
()
Date: September 24, 2011 07:06
In proportion, nothing.
Re: What is So Wrong with Overdubbing?
Posted by:
tomk
()
Date: September 24, 2011 09:52
Quote
71Tele
Rocker, you're right. One of the reasons I was so disappointed with LYL when it came out was that I saw them in LA in '75, and then had an excellent soundboard vinyl boot from one of those shows (I believe it was called "Charlie Watts And His Rolling Stones" on colored vinyl - those were the days!) The show and bootleg were great. The Paris stuff on LYL sounds flaccid and lifeless. Why overdub when you have great live recordings?
The best goddamn vinyl record I have is the LA gigs from 1975, a compilation from the 10th and the 13th that came in a black box. As much as I love Ya Ya's and LYL, nothing, at least to me, compares with that. Releasable? No. But still...
Re: What is So Wrong with Overdubbing?
Posted by:
andrewm
()
Date: September 24, 2011 10:36
Yeah, the Tour of the Americas black box. Got that mail order when I was about 13 or 14 ('78-'79) and played it over and over. I gather (again, thanks to ChrisM's great website)that the female voice on some of those recordings is Vicki Vinyl, a big Stones fan and key player in the 70's boot scene.
Re: What is So Wrong with Overdubbing?
Posted by:
Title5Take1
()
Date: September 24, 2011 10:39
Audio technicians have established that Mick Taylor was over playing on the grassy knoll.
Re: What is So Wrong with Overdubbing?
Posted by:
gwen
()
Date: September 24, 2011 12:22
The problems with the overdubs on the Austin show is that the credits make it very unclear about who did them. Keith and Ronnie? Or Pierre and Dave? Those two are able to mimic there bosses to the point of fooling fans hearing the soundcheck outside the concert venues.
Re: What is So Wrong with Overdubbing?
Posted by:
Mathijs
()
Date: September 24, 2011 12:35
Quote
GazzaQuote
71Tele
This is one big problem I have always had with Love You Live. All that overdubbing. And to what end? The end result (apart from the El Mocambo side) is pretty lame. I've heard bootlegs with more life and energy. You can "help" a live album by overdubbing on it, and you can kill it too.
LYL was ruined in the studio, because in many cases the available recordings of the shows that were used indicate that the original performances were perfectly adequate.
There are at least seven different concerts featured on Love You Live across three different years. When you factor in how many shows were played in each of the locations used, there were a total of 19 shows in LA, Toronto, London and Paris. There were other shows that were recorded for a possible live album (Cleveland, San Francisco and Lyon certainly were) but which, for various reasons, werent used (I think I read once that something like 32 shows were taped by the mobile unit for LYL)
'Fingerprint File', for example, has at least seven 'edits', removing over two minutes of the performance's original length. Only about two or three songs do not have studio vocals added.
The amount of studio time spent in overdubbing a record like this - and one with such an ironic title - when you have about 60 hours of live material to choose from just baffles me, although not as much as reading that expecting a 'live' record to be well...'live' or at least close to it is being 'overly critical'.
In the defense of LYL -it's only vocals that where added, and the tracks where edited down in order to fit a regular '75/'76 show AND one side with El Mocambo tracks. Sure, we would love it if they'd release a full, unedited show, but I doubt that would be a very commercial move.
In addition, all live albums until Flashpoint feature edits and vocal overdubs, but that's about it. There's the odd guitar dub like Taylor's rhythm guitar on Carol, a third guitar in the bridge of Let's Spend from SL, but nothing drastic.
Overdubs aren't bad as long as they aren't too obvious -it took us 40 years to even find out about the Carol overdub. With Flashpoint and Austin it IS bad as the overdubs stick out like a sore thumb, focussing the listener on the fact the the Stones can't deliver live anymore. The basis of their existance, really.
Mathijs
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