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Vocalion
I am working in Positano - Italia right now. This is the place Mick and Keith wrote MR, their best song ever. Its a sunny beach resort with beautiful old houses and it has a very romantic vibe. Strange they could write such a dark dark song here... In the big Keith interview about his book he mentioned he wrote the song for Micks voice.

Depends on what they were reading at the time... Books can make one dream oneself away - even from sunny beach resorts

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whitem8

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dancingmisterd
I remember an interview in which someone -- I think Keith -- said Start Me Up was largely a copy of Light My Fire.

WoW! I challenge you to find that interview or quote a source, because I seriously doubt what your are saying. One, I don't think Keith or Mick liked the Doors at all. Jagger in a few interviews remarked they were boring. And Start Me Up started as a reggae tune, which I don't hear any resemblance to Light My Fire at all.

And I bet you win that challenge. I have heard some crazy stories but dancingmisterd's takes the cake.

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MILKYWAY

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whitem8

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dancingmisterd
I remember an interview in which someone -- I think Keith -- said Start Me Up was largely a copy of Light My Fire.

WoW! I challenge you to find that interview or quote a source, because I seriously doubt what your are saying. One, I don't think Keith or Mick liked the Doors at all. Jagger in a few interviews remarked they were boring. And Start Me Up started as a reggae tune, which I don't hear any resemblance to Light My Fire at all.

And I bet you win that challenge. I have heard some crazy stories but dancingmisterd's takes the cake.

Never heard such a Keith quote myself, but IF it is true - then Keith must mean lyrics that is speaking of sex in metaphors....if that's the correct english expression

Of course it wouldn't be about the riffs or music.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-09-22 19:51 by Erik_Snow.

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Mathijs

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Redhotcarpet

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its good to be anywhere
The Stones were in awe of the Doors (or at least Jagger was) thats why Jagger made a special visit to meet with Morrison in his ramshackle motel room in LA where Morrison lived when not on tour. After 1967 the Stones had not toured in a while and with the advent of arena rock, better PA systems, and the Doors selling out arenas ("your ballroom days are over baby"). Jagger was apparently eager to get Morrison's advice in regard to playing before larger crowds. Mick also later attended one of the Doors live concerts but was not impressed due to a subpar performance by Morrison.

I know Stones fans cant accept certain facts and among these facts are why and how Jagger certainly changed his image in 1968 for a brief period, he always changed his image. Morrisson WAS huge at the time and of course Morrisson himself adored Brian Jones. He was the American Jagger but really the American Brian Jones.

The Bruce Botnick story is true. And he was brought in by Mick because he was the Doors producer and because they wanted to create somthing similar for Gimme Shelter and Rambler. And its all there anyhow, just listen to Rambler. As I said, it's the Stones observing the Doors and creating their own Stones Vaudeville version of "Rock Drama" or whatever you wanna call it. It doesnt sound like the Doors at all, its pure Stones (and Ry Cooder) but the inspiration is a fact. I guess Mick and Keith listened to Five to one, followed the press, read the papers about "Jim". Why the hell wouldnt they? Theyve always picked up American trends and styles and made them their own. They didnt miss out on the Velvet Underground. It's not like they lived in cocoons.

Bruce Botnick was producer of LA Women, recorded in November 1970. Gimme Shelter and Midnight Ramber where recorded 16 months before that in London, and released about 12 months before Mr. Botnick would be associated with The Doors as producer. The Stones recorded Let it Bleed in London, but mixed and did some vocal overdubs in LA's Elektra, where Botnick was an engineer. The duty of the engineer was to set-up the mikes and make sure the equipment was working properly. I don't think we can hear his incluence in the final recordings.

The dark persona of Jagger was a reaction to how the Stones where treated by the press in '67 and '68, and Sympathy was inspired by Master and Margerita.

I don't think there is a great deal of influence of the Doors in the Stones, and I don't think the Stones where greatly inspired by American bands who where big in the late '60's, like J. Airplane, Grateful Dead, and the Doors. And remember, these bands where huge in the US at the time, but not very huge in Europe. In fact, the Doors wheren't that popular in Europe at all until that Doors movie came out in the '90s.

Mathijs

I read that Botnick is the connection, how I dont know, but the point is that the Stones wanted the same feel, theme or image for a couple of songs on Let it bleed. Jagger was of course totaly aware of Morrisson and his comment about a particular show being "boring" is typical of Jagger. Morrisson was nervous about Jagger watching the show and dropped acid before he went on so the show could very well have been one of the bad ones.

Midnight Rambler is not a Doors song but the way its constructed around the theme of an alter ego, Jagger as the serial killer, is an obvious attempt at doing what Morrisson did. The song itself has some similarity to Five to one (the guitar in the middle part on and Jaggers vocals, "the belt part" ). Both Gimme Shelter, also very "dramatic" and Rambler are quite different from how other Stones songs sounded at the time.
My conclusion: Jagger/Richards were the best at sucking up the best and make it their own and in this case it's not about "stealing" riffs or licks, it's production and theme, how to produce a rock song.

I know Goin' Home from the Aftermath album is what inspired The End by the Doors.

Rob

Bruce Botnick was with the Doors from the beginning of their recording career; he was their engineer. So there definitely was a Doors connection when Jagger chose to work with Botnick. However, Botnick was something of a boy genius (he was barely in his 20s IIRC) and had already worked with such heavyweights as Brian Wilson and Crosby Stills Nash, so any or all of these creds could have caused Jagger to want him.

Paul Rothschild was the producer for all The Doors' albums except the last, L.A. Woman, which had Bruce and The Doors as producers.

The Doors were definitely Stones fans, no question. Jagger's feelings are less well known. Apparently he wanted to check the Doors out simply because they were known (or their publicist wished they were known) as "America's Rolling Stones." Mick did reportedly visit Jim in his low-rent motel room at the Alta Cienega before the Hollywood Bowl show. He did ask for Jim's advice on playing to larger crowds, so he must have been impressed on some level.

P.S. I'm sorry, that Ethan Russell book may be good but his take on Morrison is absolute rubbish! Just pathetic snobbery and bad research. Jim didn't do a rant about turning off the lights at the Roundhouse show, that was at the Hollywood Bowl show, months earlier and obviously a continent away. And he wasn't throwing a temper tantrum, it was part of the show and his voice was always soft, never petulant. He was a professional! If you can't dig it then move on but don't put the man down.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-09-23 01:13 by Claire_M.

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originalstones
I know Goin' Home from the Aftermath album is what inspired The End by the Doors.

Rob

I really dont hear that at all. The Doors the End vs Goin Home with the Stones? C'mon! Yeah ok, I know, it kinda inspired but other than the idea of a long number?

Midnight Rambler is one of the most notable Stones songs of which there are no circulating alt takes. Anyone know the recording history of this song such as how many takes it too to nail it?

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Redhotcarpet

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originalstones
I know Goin' Home from the Aftermath album is what inspired The End by the Doors.

Rob

I really dont hear that at all. The Doors the End vs Goin Home with the Stones? C'mon! Yeah ok, I know, it kinda inspired but other than the idea of a long number?

I'm just quoting what the Doors have said. I don't think musically it sounds like it either. John Densmore wrote it in his book. I said 'inspired' not 'sounds like it'.

Didn't Morrison & Keith share mutual heroin dealers? There used to be that web page with the long, extremely detailed story about Morrison visiting Nellcote while Parsons was there - but it was bogus. Keith was at Nellcote when Morrison died but they never hung out.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-09-23 04:47 by theanchorman.

I don't think Morrison was a big heroin use, even though it was involved in his death. He was a boozer mainly.

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theanchorman
Didn't Morrison & Keith share mutual heroin dealers? There used to be that web page with the long, extremely detailed story about Morrison visiting Nellcote while Parsons was there - but it was bogus. Keith was at Nellcote when Morrison died but they never hung out.

morrison wasn't a user of heroin but would buy it for his gf pam courson who was an addict.her dealer was involved with marianne faithfull at the time of jim's death. and with pam at times as well. btw morrison owned very few albums but one he played in paris i read was the newly released sticky fingers album.

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Claire_M
Bruce Botnick was with the Doors from the beginning of their recording career; he was their engineer. So there definitely was a Doors connection when Jagger chose to work with Botnick. However, Botnick was something of a boy genius (he was barely in his 20s IIRC) and had already worked with such heavyweights as Brian Wilson and Crosby Stills Nash, so any or all of these creds could have caused Jagger to want him.

Paul Rothschild was the producer for all The Doors' albums except the last, L.A. Woman, which had Bruce and The Doors as producers.

Just to get some facts straight: for any 'normal' band a producer and engineer comes with the studio. The record company hires a studio, and most of the time this studio is owned the producer, or with the bigger studios the producer is hired by the studio. The engineer almost always is 'just' a hired hand. For the very big and well to do bands there is the possibility that you choose a producer, who takes over duties from the studio's own producer.

This is not the case for the engineer: he is really part of the studio, as he is the one who knows best how to get the best technically out of the studio. You rent a studio, and the engineer comes with the studio.

The Stones (and many other big bands) went to privately owned Elektra and Sunset in the late 60's and 70's because they had something special: small rooms with good equipment and good engineers that could be rented much cheaper than the large studios owned by the big companies. Another benefit: English bands could work there without the Unions and Boarder Customs knowing it. This way Glyn Johns could work with Jimmy Miller and Jagger and Richards in Sunset without losing visas or getting in trouble with a union, demanding an American producer.

I do not see a Doors connection to the Stones with Botnick, other than he was a good engineer in a well equipped studio. The connection to Sunset Sound Recordes and Factory more likely is David Hassinger, who as we know produced the Stones in the 60’s before he became the owner of Sunset Sound factory in ’69.

Mathijs

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Mathijs

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Claire_M
Bruce Botnick was with the Doors from the beginning of their recording career; he was their engineer. So there definitely was a Doors connection when Jagger chose to work with Botnick. However, Botnick was something of a boy genius (he was barely in his 20s IIRC) and had already worked with such heavyweights as Brian Wilson and Crosby Stills Nash, so any or all of these creds could have caused Jagger to want him.

Paul Rothschild was the producer for all The Doors' albums except the last, L.A. Woman, which had Bruce and The Doors as producers.

Just to get some facts straight: for any 'normal' band a producer and engineer comes with the studio. The record company hires a studio, and most of the time this studio is owned the producer, or with the bigger studios the producer is hired by the studio. The engineer almost always is 'just' a hired hand. For the very big and well to do bands there is the possibility that you choose a producer, who takes over duties from the studio's own producer.

This is not the case for the engineer: he is really part of the studio, as he is the one who knows best how to get the best technically out of the studio. You rent a studio, and the engineer comes with the studio.

The Stones (and many other big bands) went to privately owned Elektra and Sunset in the late 60's and 70's because they had something special: small rooms with good equipment and good engineers that could be rented much cheaper than the large studios owned by the big companies. Another benefit: English bands could work there without the Unions and Boarder Customs knowing it. This way Glyn Johns could work with Jimmy Miller and Jagger and Richards in Sunset without losing visas or getting in trouble with a union, demanding an American producer.

I do not see a Doors connection to the Stones with Botnick, other than he was a good engineer in a well equipped studio. The connection to Sunset Sound Recordes and Factory more likely is David Hassinger, who as we know produced the Stones in the 60’s before he became the owner of Sunset Sound factory in ’69.

Mathijs

Yeah but the point here would be that Botnick wasnt just a good engineer and Mick asked specifically for that "theatrical rock" production, not for all songs on Let it bleed but for a couple. Midnight Rambler is rock theatre, really the only one they did (Gimme Shelter is on record but not live) and its perfect for Mick and Keith, the same interplay Morrisson had with the Doors on stage, Ray and Robbie communicating with the singer - blues in the form of a rock n roll show. In 1976 Mick did a genderbending interracial vaudeville act in Hey Negrita. The Rambler lived and died on stage with Jagger in 1972, when he, Keith and Taylor perfected the song and the act.
The Stones sure followed the competition and the Doors were known in England as the American Stones with Jim being "the American Jagger". According to popular Stones lore the Glimmers did everything themselves, inspired by the blues and Chuck Berry, as if they were a separate unit, a cocoon floating around writing songs, maybe with the help of Gram Parsons on one song. Unmoved by what went on around them (like the rapidly changing music scene of the 60s and 70s). No way they went on tour without good planning. Same goes for Mick's total makeover on David Frost (check out Mick and Keith together and how Brian is completely erased) and the Rock n roll circus.

..or maybe by 'Heard it through the grapewine' by Creedence...or 'Keep on Chooglin'...Stones was second to Creedence here...

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Listen to the whole thing and remember this is not Ry being recorded by Keith, this is official.