I don't even know the origins of the 27 Club. No one was thinking that when Jones died. But if anyone deserves to be the founding member, it's Johnson, an influence on all of them. Sure, it's a stupid club. Does Duane Allman get a special club, the 24 Club? Or, even more exclusive, the Buddy Holly 22 Club, or the Ritchie Valens 17 Club? The 27 Club is marked by people who had a lot to do with their own untimely demise. And all went too soon.

Who really cares about this kinda crap!!

This forum has gone to the dogs.

Quote
whitem8

Quote
stupidguy2

Quote
whitem8
You may argue that he music is more accessable, but she didn't have near the international influence that Nirvana had. As many have said, Nirvana was the head of a new movement in rock, it didn't really sound new, but the youths embraced it as their music. Amy was great, but she just didn't have the mass appeal or influence. And as was said above, her most famous claim was Rehab and her drug use...not her records. Sad, but true.

Where are all the Amy fans? Sheesh...
"Rehab" is not the only song she made or that people know....but I will say that her death may have led many to re-discover her music.
When you guys say things like that, its just sounds like an evident refusal to even listen to her music beyond that.
I can't argue with that. I'm talking about an artist individually, not as some kind of mass movement where gazillions of kids mimic its style, or where a record industry is invigorated...that's about ebbs and lows of music trends.... That's a different argument. Janis did not spark a 'movement'. Billie Holliday did not spark a 'movement'. People, audiences responded to their voices, music, story. That's what ultimately lasts, not how many people wore beehives.
Whatever...nevermind...
I've always enjoyed your posts whitem8, and we're just have to agree to disagree on this one.

I like her. Remember my first post I said I didn't say either was better than they other, just tried to offer a rational answer to your question.

You were rational. I get on a rant roll sometimes.....because I actually enjoy this kind of passionate debate about music.

Quote
24FPS
I don't even know the origins of the 27 Club. No one was thinking that when Jones died. But if anyone deserves to be the founding member, it's Johnson, an influence on all of them. Sure, it's a stupid club. Does Duane Allman get a special club, the 24 Club? Or, even more exclusive, the Buddy Holly 22 Club, or the Ritchie Valens 17 Club? The 27 Club is marked by people who had a lot to do with their own untimely demise. And all went too soon.

It's more a media thing than anthing else. I think people like to think that it means something.....they were all 27, and they were all very gifted and its a big 'if-only'....so people like to think that, if you are a fan of Cobain, or AW, they have somehow reached some mortality by virtue of their talent and art. Its kind of morbid, but also kind of romantic.....

Quote
Doxa
The whole issue is stupid per se, but, since it's only r&r, it's alright.
. Does anyone ask from Janis Joplin how can she be claimed to join the the club of 27 if there is someone like Jimi Hendrix there to be compared to? C'mon. As far as I'm concerned not any bloody Kurt Cobain make the club if the criteria is to be influential like Robert Johnson or Jimi Hendrix. So if Cobain makes it, surely Amy makes it too! ..

- Doxa

You just made the point I was trying to make so much more succinctly and rationally.....

so much more succinctly and rationally.....[/quote]

@stupidguy2, I knew you were down right clever all along. peace.

.......... The GREAT GREAT Hank cranked it out ta 30.....







ROCKMAN

Quote
Rockman
.......... The GREAT GREAT Hank cranked it out ta 30.....

wow Rockman, I know you are a media mogul here but this is a true gem, do you ever sleep? Awesome post. Now I know why I am hanging around a fan bulletin board.

Now I know why I am hanging around a fan bulletin board.

....Stick with me kid ... I'll teach somethang!!!!!!!!!!





....... the original by the blind songwriter Leon Payne .....Payne always penned I Love You Because



ROCKMAN

Thanks for this Rockie.
Assume you've heard that Bob Dylan and friends have been working on unfinished Hank songs?

Let me know if this escaped you and I'll forward some stuff.

StonesRule hearts Rockman. I will not treat you as ludicrously as Keith did Mick in my book "Another Side of LIFE" Which includes something I never dared tell Cindy C. At his request, I was the first person to ever put eye shadow on his soulful lids. If IORR was a Murdoch newspaper the headline would read:

THE SECRET SHAME OF KEITH RICHARDS

Quote
stupidguy2

Quote
Doxa
The whole issue is stupid per se, but, since it's only r&r, it's alright.
. Does anyone ask from Janis Joplin how can she be claimed to join the the club of 27 if there is someone like Jimi Hendrix there to be compared to? C'mon. As far as I'm concerned not any bloody Kurt Cobain make the club if the criteria is to be influential like Robert Johnson or Jimi Hendrix. So if Cobain makes it, surely Amy makes it too! ..

- Doxa

You just made the point I was trying to make so much more succinctly and rationally.....

What a moronic position, although I will give you more succinct that you were able to offer...this is not an actual 'club'.

Belonging to the 'club' requires nothing more than being a musician and dying at age 27. It is a sad coincidence that was discovered. Your whole rant is ludicrous. You've created a strawman argument, and are trying to get people 'riled up' for why Amy Winehouse isn't allowed in 'Club 27'.

Who hasn't let her in?

In your rant, you've been either trying to say that Amy Winehouse is better, or at least as good as Kurt Cobain.

Who cares? Why compare 2 artists separated by almost a generation?

For the morons that persist in the Stones vs. Beatles debate, at least they were friends/rivals/contemporaries for a period of time.

What has AW have to do with KB?

Stop the nonsense.

'ello dare stonesrule ....... yes have read about Dylan and friends
working on the Hank unfinished lyrics ... hope they handle them with care...
But interested in reading anything you have so yes please fling it on down ta me

There is a shot somewhere in Connections of lyrics found in car that Hank died in ......

OWWW Wow ...Another Side Of Life .. sounds interesting and cool title ... has a gram link BUT YEAH Go my friend write it



ROCKMAN

Quote
stonesrule
StonesRule hearts Rockman. I will not treat you as ludicrously as Keith did Mick in my book "Another Side of LIFE" Which includes something I never dared tell Cindy C. At his request, I was the first person to ever put eye shadow on his soulful lids. If IORR was a Murdoch newspaper the headline would read:

THE SECRET SHAME OF KEITH RICHARDS

NO WAY!!!!!!!!!!!!! That is amazing! Are you talking about for the promo photos of Have You Seen Your Mother.....

Cindy!

Your grapevine is swift!

No, this was in 1970ish when both Mick and Keith decided it was time to wear make-up on stage.

Other details must remain between just us.

This thread went nowhere

You should never try to convince someone that compares Amy Winehouse's legacy to Kurt Cobain's that he/she is off base. For now the answer's obvious, but perhaps time will tell.

They'll probably release a ton of posthumous material from AW, though I doubt there will be the same market for it as KC.

Quote
treaclefingers

Quote
stupidguy2

Quote
Doxa
The whole issue is stupid per se, but, since it's only r&r, it's alright.
. Does anyone ask from Janis Joplin how can she be claimed to join the the club of 27 if there is someone like Jimi Hendrix there to be compared to? C'mon. As far as I'm concerned not any bloody Kurt Cobain make the club if the criteria is to be influential like Robert Johnson or Jimi Hendrix. So if Cobain makes it, surely Amy makes it too! ..

- Doxa

You just made the point I was trying to make so much more succinctly and rationally.....

What a moronic position, although I will give you more succinct that you were able to offer...this is not an actual 'club'.

Belonging to the 'club' requires nothing more than being a musician and dying at age 27. It is a sad coincidence that was discovered. Your whole rant is ludicrous. You've created a strawman argument, and are trying to get people 'riled up' for why Amy Winehouse isn't allowed in 'Club 27'.

Who hasn't let her in?

In your rant, you've been either trying to say that Amy Winehouse is better, or at least as good as Kurt Cobain.

Who cares? Why compare 2 artists separated by almost a generation?

For the morons that persist in the Stones vs. Beatles debate, at least they were friends/rivals/contemporaries for a period of time.

What has AW have to do with KB?

Stop the nonsense.

Just when I was going to just let it be.....
I was remarking on the fact that, and I stated this in the first post, many people, music fans, seem to have no problem mentioning Cobain in the same breath as Hendrix, but are so adamant and immovable about the possibility that AW could have just as long a legacy, a memory. I simply asked why not? And it turned into who had the bigger dick.
My argument became a rant when the Nirvana-was-bigger-than-God drove me off a cliff and Amy only had one song etc....
Doxa explained summed it up better than I could have. It was that simple and it turned into something else that is rooted in my deep-seated belief that Nirvana is the most overrated defunct band to ever exist. As for the 'club'...see post above.

Joni Mitchell:

"Everybody says Kurt Cobain was a great writer. I don't see it," Mitchell says. "Why is he a hero? Whining and killing yourself--I fail to see the heroism in that."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-08-19 03:31 by stupidguy2.

Quote
stonesrule
Cindy!

Your grapevine is swift!

No, this was in 1970ish when both Mick and Keith decided it was time to wear make-up on stage.

Other details must remain between just us.

They'd been wearing make up onstage before the 70's. Yer usual 'stage show' foundation type stuff so they didn't look so sickly onstage, on camera etc, and by 68 Keith was doing the whole eye liner thing.

Quote
Laughingsam
This thread went nowhere

You should never try to convince someone that compares Amy Winehouse's legacy to Kurt Cobain's that he/she is off base. For now the answer's obvious, but perhaps time will tell.

They'll probably release a ton of posthumous material from AW, though I doubt there will be the same market for it as KC.

Is Cobain that exalted now? I had no idea. I don't know anyone who actually still listens to Nirvana anymore...so I must be out of the loop.
I should have just left AW out of the equation because apparently, Cobain was God.
I should just start over:

Nirvana was/is overrated.
Limited subject matter, limited muscial stylings or variations or chord progressions, limited vocal ability...and finally and most unfortunately, limited subject matter. (...'aqua seam-foam shame (?)....' Does that even mean anything?
But they made a big noise and alot of kids wore flannels and shorts, so who am I to knock them off their cross. Cobain was a clever, self-absorbed little boy...
That's always appealing to young people.....and the music press fell in love.
I don't their influence beyond that. I really don't



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-08-19 03:48 by stupidguy2.

Quote
stupidguy2

Quote
Laughingsam
This thread went nowhere

You should never try to convince someone that compares Amy Winehouse's legacy to Kurt Cobain's that he/she is off base. For now the answer's obvious, but perhaps time will tell.

They'll probably release a ton of posthumous material from AW, though I doubt there will be the same market for it as KC.

Is Cobain that exalted now? I had no idea. I don't know anyone who actually still listens to Nirvana anymore...so I must be out of the loop.
I should have just left AW out of the equation because apparently, Cobain was God.
I should just start over:

Nirvana was/is overrated.
Limited subject matter, limited muscial stylings or variations or chord progressions, limited vocal ability...and finally and most unfortunately, limited subject matter. (I used to think 'aqua seam-foam shame (?)....' Does that even mean anything?
But they made a big noise and alot of kids wore flannels and shorts, so who am I to knock them off their mantle.

We understand you don't like Nirvana, and you prefer Amy Winehouse.

Why don't you just stop talking about it...no one is going to change your tastes, and you'll change no one's.

I think both were fine for their time, both were a little overrated given how limited their output was, both led very tragic existences and both left far too soon.

What else is there to say about it that makes any difference?

Seriously......nevermind.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-08-19 03:54 by stupidguy2.

Quote
stupidguy2

Quote
treaclefingers

Quote
stupidguy2

Quote
Laughingsam
This thread went nowhere

You should never try to convince someone that compares Amy Winehouse's legacy to Kurt Cobain's that he/she is off base. For now the answer's obvious, but perhaps time will tell.

They'll probably release a ton of posthumous material from AW, though I doubt there will be the same market for it as KC.

Is Cobain that exalted now? I had no idea. I don't know anyone who actually still listens to Nirvana anymore...so I must be out of the loop.
I should have just left AW out of the equation because apparently, Cobain was God.
I should just start over:

Nirvana was/is overrated.
Limited subject matter, limited muscial stylings or variations or chord progressions, limited vocal ability...and finally and most unfortunately, limited subject matter. (I used to think 'aqua seam-foam shame (?)....' Does that even mean anything?
But they made a big noise and alot of kids wore flannels and shorts, so who am I to knock them off their mantle.

We understand you don't like Nirvana, and you prefer Amy Winehouse.

Why don't you just stop talking about it...no one is going to change your tastes, and you'll change no one's.

I think both were fine for their time, both were a little overrated given how limited their output was, both led very tragic existences and both left far too soon.

What else is there to say about it that makes any difference?

Because you brought it up again and still miss the point.

You haven't actually made a coherent point...that is my point.

Quote
treaclefingers

Quote
stupidguy2

Quote
treaclefingers

Quote
stupidguy2

Quote
Laughingsam
This thread went nowhere

You should never try to convince someone that compares Amy Winehouse's legacy to Kurt Cobain's that he/she is off base. For now the answer's obvious, but perhaps time will tell.

They'll probably release a ton of posthumous material from AW, though I doubt there will be the same market for it as KC.

Is Cobain that exalted now? I had no idea. I don't know anyone who actually still listens to Nirvana anymore...so I must be out of the loop.
I should have just left AW out of the equation because apparently, Cobain was God.
I should just start over:

Nirvana was/is overrated.
Limited subject matter, limited muscial stylings or variations or chord progressions, limited vocal ability...and finally and most unfortunately, limited subject matter. (I used to think 'aqua seam-foam shame (?)....' Does that even mean anything?
But they made a big noise and alot of kids wore flannels and shorts, so who am I to knock them off their mantle.

We understand you don't like Nirvana, and you prefer Amy Winehouse.

Why don't you just stop talking about it...no one is going to change your tastes, and you'll change no one's.

I think both were fine for their time, both were a little overrated given how limited their output was, both led very tragic existences and both left far too soon.

What else is there to say about it that makes any difference?

Because you brought it up again and still miss the point.

You haven't actually made a coherent point...that is my point.

Maybe because you don't agree....and the case for Cobain has yet to make sense to me...
so we're even. And what's wrong with some debate? Unfortunately, in the flat context of a post, everything sounds so argumentative.....but its really not meant to be, so I'm lighter in tone than, I guess, my words appear. But I hate smiley faces in my posts.......
Peace...

Quote
Doxa
The whole issue is stupid per se, but, since it's only r&r, it's alright.

I see the idea of thinking Kurt Cobain being somehow more 'important' in terms of musical significance or influence than Amy Winehouse is seriously misguided to a given issue. Does anyone ask from Janis Joplin how can she be claimed to join the the club of 27 if there is someone like Jimi Hendrix there to be compared to? C'mon. As far as I'm concerned not any bloody Kurt Cobain make the club if the criteria is to be influential like Robert Johnson or Jimi Hendrix. So if Cobain makes it, surely Amy makes it too! Besides, for the sake of equality, there are females needed there in that place too. I suppose Amy will going to have a great 'girls' party there with Janis, and let's see how the boys manage... Brian will do alright, anyway..

- Doxa

Kurt Cobain had and still has a major influence on pop music and pop culture. He is an icon like it or not.

In the great history of rock/pop music think Cobain is a minor icon.
If you ask a hundred music fans of diverse ages many of them would barely know who he is. His brief list of songs doesn't qualify him for major attention.

Quote
stonesrule
In the great history of rock/pop music think Cobain is a minor icon.
If you ask a hundred music fans of diverse ages many of them would barely know who he is. His brief list of songs doesn't qualify him for major attention.

It depends on the age group. I think most people aged 30-35 know who he is, but probably not many teenagers or people in their 50s.

Quote
Sleepy City

Quote
stonesrule
In the great history of rock/pop music think Cobain is a minor icon.
If you ask a hundred music fans of diverse ages many of them would barely know who he is. His brief list of songs doesn't qualify him for major attention.

It depends on the age group. I think most people aged 30-35 know who he is, but probably not many teenagers or people in their 50s.

I'm a Gen-Xer so I'm biased but plenty of teens know who Cobain and Nirvana is. I've found that arguing about musical preference is a bit like arguing about religion or politics. People feel very passionately about their favorites and take it personally if they are insulted and the whole thing just becomes a circular argument.

I loved Nirvana, Kurt wrote some moving and amazing songs, he was a bright and funny guy in his interviews and reinvigorated the music industry stuck in Hair Band Hell. His influence, especially among my generation was major. In my opinion a bit part of it is generational. Boomers have mostly contempt for Gen-Xers (and we often return the favor). They often talk about how much better, cooler, more influential their generation was. Well there were more of you and you come first, duh. And we got stuck with a lot of your messes. And that is a big part of what Nirvana and those other bands expressed. Remember they came to national prominence in 1992/1993 when a lot of us were getting out of college, and there was a nice big recession and not a lot of jobs for us. Hence the whole McJob's thing. But somehow instead we got labeled slackers, when most of the people I know my age worked and went to school plus were active in other things as well.

Not trying to convert anyone to my way of thinking or to debate. It matters not at all who does or doesn't like Kurt Cobian. But just to explain from the point of view of a fan and contemporary if you will. Hope this rambly post made sense.

I'm certainly not a Gen-Xer and I think Cobain was part of a handful of truly talented and original rockers to come along in the later years of rock and roll. 'Come As You Are' is one of the most chilling songs rock and roll has ever produced, along with having killer guitar. His personal problems are irrelevant.

Wasnt Kurt Cobain that guy who married Courtney Love?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-08-20 20:09 by Max'sKansasCity.

Yes Max's Kurt married Courtney Love. Who I used to really like because despite being such a mess I found her really talented. Now I just find her a mess. Yet their daughter Frances Bean is by all accounts sweet and normal. Go figure. And thank Kurt's mom who basically raised her.

Quote
LillithFlair
Yes Max's Kurt married Courtney Love. Who I used to really like because despite being such a mess I found her really talented. Now I just find her a mess. Yet their daughter Frances Bean is by all accounts sweet and normal. Go figure. And thank Kurt's mom who basically raised her.

I thought he married Courtney Pine, obviously I got confused!