It's quite obvious that Jagger likes to keep the pace of songs moving, and rather quickly. I've often thought that he has really prevented the band from showing some creativity on stage. It's one thing to tighten a song in the studio, but the stage is where the musicians can let loose. If you listen to the boots of complete shows you realize that just when a great moment of noodling or jamming sets in, he calls out his cues to end the song. If I were a musician I would really be annoyed by that.

Granted, many songs are just meant to be played for what they are, but many have openings for some really great solos, jamming, and extended outros. A perfect example is the 1981 Hampton show with a nearly ten minute "Just My Imagination." Keith and Ronnie took control (with Mick on guitar too) and just jammed. Jagger tried in vain many times to end it, but they just ignored him. In the end they all laughed it off, but it was a rare moment of rock bliss.

I can hear people saying "what about Midnight Rambler" and that has its moments, but that song is more of Jagger's "solo" and theatrics.

So why the obsession with shutting down all the songs? Did Jagger feel like it would make his star shine less? Is his ego that big that he just can't allow anyone else to get more attention than him? I just think it is one of the missing elements to this band that only makes one wonder "what if."

There are already several songs in the show that are considerably longer than the studio takes, especially in the second half of the show.

Maybe Mick is afraid that letting loose Keith and Ronnie would end up in a complete mess?

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HMS
There are already several songs in the show that are considerably longer than the studio takes, especially in the second half of the show.

Maybe Mick is afraid that letting loose Keith and Ronnie would end up in a complete mess?

I would disagree with your first statement, those longer songs were mostly audience type theatrics with Mick, rather than individual jamming.

Keith and Ronnie had some nice solo moments in the 1975 tour with "YCAGWYW" "SFTD" in 1969 had some good guitars slots.

simply put: more than 95% of the audience isn't interested in jamming. They want just greatest hits. No jamming is the price you've got to pay to play to 50.000+ crowds

I agree with the Sicilian.
The Stones absoulutely have the potential to jam and this has been my one complaint over the last few tours.
I dont think it has anything to do with Micks ego as much as it has to do with the timing and logistics of their live shows.

But yeah, this band would seriously rock out if given the chance.

The jamming days unfortunately ended as of 81-82. Ever since 1989, they've been sticking more closely to the studio arrangements. It guarantees a "safer" performance and less train wrecks, but oh how I miss the days when they would cut loose onstage!

Jamming is something the Stones have never done much of; you would never get them doing an Allmans, or a Dead, or even Gov't Mule (although I love Stoned Side of the Mule). It's never been them.

Yeah that's right... Stones never been much inta jamming ...
More the go in... do the damage.... then get out ...



ROCKMAN

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tomcasagranda
Jamming is something the Stones have never done much of; you would never get them doing an Allmans, or a Dead, or even Gov't Mule (although I love Stoned Side of the Mule). It's never been them.

There were a lot of exceptions to that during the 1969 - 1982 era. Solos were never exactly the same twice on a lot of songs. Just listen to Hampton 1981. They're jamming like crazy on YCAGWYW, JMI, LIB and many more. They stopped playing like that in 1989.

That's not a rock band up there to jam. That's a traveling Broadway show, timed to the nth degree. It stopped being anything spontaneous, or inspiring, over 30 years ago. There was a little wiggle room in 1999, but that's long gone. Keith is lucky enough to get through the songs now, contributing his part which has shrunk considerably. The bass don't swing, the piano tinkles, the sax section has a hole in it. It's over. It's like comparing an Indian Casino Mike Love's Beach Boys gig to a Brian Wilson concert where he does ALL of Pet Sounds. This band still called the Rolling Stones is a shadow of what was. I can't imagine traveling around and hearing this version night after night, same song after same song. It would bore my nuts off.

Now, Brussels '73, that's a horse of a different color....

Sorry but the Stones are a jamming band nowadays:
Midnight Rambler: 15-17 minutes
Miss You, Satisfaction, YCAGWYW, Gimme Shelter, SFTD, Brown Sugar: 8-10 minutes

Sometimes no one is playing even a riff, just waving the crowd with singalongs and dance steps, it's a different kind of jam than on previous tours, less work and effort.

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tomcasagranda
Jamming is something the Stones have never done much of; you would never get them doing an Allmans, or a Dead, or even Gov't Mule (although I love Stoned Side of the Mule). It's never been them.

Or Zeppelin, Pink Floyd, The Who, Yes, Aerosmith, J Geils, Humble Pie, Jimi Hendrix etc...

But when you say "It's never been them," which is not totally true, but do you wonder why? This is a band built for jamming. Two guitars and a bass, keyboards, horn sections, and a drummer that whose passion is Jazz, and that alone is built on jam sessions.

I wonder if Brian Jones would have had a different influence on the music as the band progressed.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2016-04-03 00:30 by The Sicilian.

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24FPS
That's not a rock band up there to jam. That's a traveling Broadway show, timed to the nth degree. It stopped being anything spontaneous, or inspiring, over 30 years ago. There was a little wiggle room in 1999, but that's long gone. Keith is lucky enough to get through the songs now, contributing his part which has shrunk considerably. The bass don't swing, the piano tinkles, the sax section has a hole in it. It's over. It's like comparing an Indian Casino Mike Love's Beach Boys gig to a Brian Wilson concert where he does ALL of Pet Sounds. This band still called the Rolling Stones is a shadow of what was. I can't imagine traveling around and hearing this version night after night, same song after same song. It would bore my nuts off.

Now, Brussels '73, that's a horse of a different color....

I think you have arrived at the heart of the matter, well said.

There were long, jamming versions of Miss You, especially on B2B tour.

Also Can't You Hear Me Knocking.

Long jamming version of Miss You, Midnight Rambler, Can't You Hear Me, Just My Imagination.... I would love that, the same with 5% of the audience, the remaining would not know what to do....

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mtaylor
Long jamming version of Miss You, Midnight Rambler, Can't You Hear Me, Just My Imagination.... I would love that, the same with 5% of the audience, the remaining would not know what to do....

Is it a universal assumption that only 5% of Stones fans (mainly IORR posters) are true fans of everything Stones, and the rest are casual bystanders that know the songs only from the local FM radio plays and an occasional album purchase?

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The Sicilian

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mtaylor
Long jamming version of Miss You, Midnight Rambler, Can't You Hear Me, Just My Imagination.... I would love that, the same with 5% of the audience, the remaining would not know what to do....

Is it a universal assumption that only 5% of Stones fans (mainly IORR posters) are true fans of everything Stones, and the rest are casual bystanders that know the songs only from the local FM radio plays and an occasional album purchase?

Pretty much. You're a sicko, like me, when you know their freakin' middle names.

I think the answer--or one of the main answers--is $$$. No ROI in jamming. Time is money.

Mick does all this for the $ first, public exposure and remaining culturally relevant and in "the news" 2nd, probably exercise and keeping physically fit 3rd, adrenaline and energy he sucks off and exchanges with huge audiences 4th....and reveling in the spontaneous creation and nuances of music and unspoken musical exchanges with simpatico bandmembers...not so much.

Another answer: risk aversion & control freakery.

Another: apathy.

Another: lack of time spent together noodling around necessary to keep communications and spontaneity chops up. but see reason #1--there's no hard ROI

I don't believe people who shell out gazillion dollars to see the Stones (everyone being aware that it might be the last show the Stones ever play) would resent the Stones jamming during Brown Sugar. If the music were good and the band rocking, even people who don't know their middle names would dance along...pretty sure about that.

- swiss



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2016-04-03 11:54 by swiss.

I guess it has to do with preset lights, videos and recordings. But one can notice that they still manage to do 14 minutes versions of Rambler or Satisfaction without ever trying to improvise...

Agree: they play long versions of Rambler, You can't, Satisfaction etc, but that has nothing to do with real jamming, or improvise. They just play long versions in a very safe way, always the same, every time, every concert the same versions. That's not jamming at all.

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24FPS
That's not a rock band up there to jam. That's a traveling Broadway show, timed to the nth degree. It stopped being anything spontaneous, or inspiring, over 30 years ago. There was a little wiggle room in 1999, but that's long gone. Keith is lucky enough to get through the songs now, contributing his part which has shrunk considerably. The bass don't swing, the piano tinkles, the sax section has a hole in it. It's over. It's like comparing an Indian Casino Mike Love's Beach Boys gig to a Brian Wilson concert where he does ALL of Pet Sounds. This band still called the Rolling Stones is a shadow of what was. I can't imagine traveling around and hearing this version night after night, same song after same song. It would bore my nuts off.

Now, Brussels '73, that's a horse of a different color....

That´s a very pessimistic way of seeing things, imo. The Stones today are as good as they were in 1995 and that was better than in 1982...

Karl Denson is a better sax player by far than Bobby ever was and Sasha is better than Lisa was recently. Darryl Jones´ funky bass is solid and excellent, Ronnie´s playing improved considerably, Mick is still the greatest frontman alive, Charlie is still the Wembley Whammer and Keith is marvelous on a good night. Last not least Chuck Leavall is a fine player but he should play a "real piano". Apart from that he is doing a great job for more than 20 years now. Listen to him on Fancy Man Blues for example. The Stones are still a great unit - well, on a gigantic stage with computerized light show and video images is not much place for spontaneosity, but let them play to a small audience in a small club and I bet they would kick your ass just like in the Sixties.

These guys are in their seventies and can still put up a great show. Who would have expected this some 20 years ago. They are phenomenal and so are their concerts, m-i-n-d-b-l-o-w-i-n-g.

Btw, Brian Wilson is a boring old man who makes boring music, but that´s just my opinion. I never dug the Beach Boys anyway.

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georgelicks
Sorry but the Stones are a jamming band nowadays:
Midnight Rambler: 15-17 minutes
Miss You, Satisfaction, YCAGWYW, Gimme Shelter, SFTD, Brown Sugar: 8-10 minutes

Sometimes no one is playing even a riff, just waving the crowd with singalongs and dance steps, it's a different kind of jam than on previous tours, less work and effort.

right – prolonging a song is not jamming

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tomcasagranda
Jamming is something the Stones have never done much of; you would never get them doing an Allmans, or a Dead, or even Gov't Mule (although I love Stoned Side of the Mule). It's never been them.

Exactly. Rolling Stones are a song band. Folks want extended jams? Phish, insipid lyrics included are on the road again.

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24FPS
That's not a rock band up there to jam. That's a traveling Broadway show, timed to the nth degree. It stopped being anything spontaneous, or inspiring, over 30 years ago... The bass don't swing, the piano tinkles, the sax section has a hole in it. It's over... This band still called the Rolling Stones is a shadow of what was...

Now, Brussels '73, that's a horse of a different color....

You are the Wagnerian being of the abyss here, 24FPS. You are longing for something you cannot have, but the reality is that many songs in the Stones live repertoire have changed and evolved in the last thirty years.

Songs sounded different in 1997, 2003, 2016, etc., with different speeds, different instruments and so forth.

In the same way as 2016 performances, each performance of a song in 1973 was similar to other renditions performed that year.

.....

Olly.

Well I saw The Rolling Stones in Detroit for the Zipcode tour and they were indeed a rock n' roll band. And they jammed! Midnight Rambler was epic, and Mick was feeding it, not starving it! Just My Imagination was also a great jam. So this whole broadway nonsense just doesn't hit the target with their recent tours. I mean jamming? Listen to the 7:22 version of Brown Sugar from Sticky Fingers live. That band is jamming. There have been a few videos of Mick cueing Mick Taylor to wrap up a solo on Can't You Hear Me Knocking and Midnight Rambler, and that is just bringing it back into focus and also considering they do have a set list to complete. Spontaneity may not be what it once was, but again, these guys are in a different place in a different time. But I know the show I saw in Wisconsin and Detroit was full of great jamming and rock in' roll.

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HMS

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24FPS
That's not a rock band up there to jam. That's a traveling Broadway show, timed to the nth degree. It stopped being anything spontaneous, or inspiring, over 30 years ago. There was a little wiggle room in 1999, but that's long gone. Keith is lucky enough to get through the songs now, contributing his part which has shrunk considerably. The bass don't swing, the piano tinkles, the sax section has a hole in it. It's over. It's like comparing an Indian Casino Mike Love's Beach Boys gig to a Brian Wilson concert where he does ALL of Pet Sounds. This band still called the Rolling Stones is a shadow of what was. I can't imagine traveling around and hearing this version night after night, same song after same song. It would bore my nuts off.

Now, Brussels '73, that's a horse of a different color....

That´s a very pessimistic way of seeing things, imo. The Stones today are as good as they were in 1995 and that was better than in 1982...

Karl Denson is a better sax player by far than Bobby ever was and Sasha is better than Lisa was recently. Darryl Jones´ funky bass is solid and excellent, Ronnie´s playing improved considerably, Mick is still the greatest frontman alive, Charlie is still the Wembley Whammer and Keith is marvelous on a good night. Last not least Chuck Leavall is a fine player but he should play a "real piano". Apart from that he is doing a great job for more than 20 years now. Listen to him on Fancy Man Blues for example. The Stones are still a great unit - well, on a gigantic stage with computerized light show and video images is not much place for spontaneosity, but let them play to a small audience in a small club and I bet they would kick your ass just like in the Sixties.

These guys are in their seventies and can still put up a great show. Who would have expected this some 20 years ago. They are phenomenal and so are their concerts, m-i-n-d-b-l-o-w-i-n-g.

Btw, Brian Wilson is a boring old man who makes boring music, but that´s just my opinion. I never dug the Beach Boys anyway.

I explained away (to myself) your "analysis" of the current state of the Stones as just blind fandom. But whether or not you like Brian Wilson or the Beach Boys' music, Wilson is hardly a boring old man with boring music. Whatever credibility your opinion of the Stones might carry is gone the minute you dismiss Wilson like that.

The protracted jams on Hampton added nothing but a slow death to what were otherwise good performances. It's as if they forgot to stop.

Well, a band that doesn't improvise, jam or change arrangements between tours or concerts isn't really an evolving live act. Rather more a karaoke band of sorts.

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Father Ted
The protracted jams on Hampton added nothing but a slow death to what were otherwise good performances. It's as if they forgot to stop.

Oh well, I guess we all have different tastes. I personally loved the long jams in 1981. Sometimes they could be train wrecks, but on a good night they could be pure magic.