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I'll be honest, I don't think there are any album where Ronnie is a key to the sound. I can't think of one lick of his in the entire time he's been there that jumps out and says "distinctive style, it's clearly me".
It's a shame, I loved the Faces and I respected Ronnie as an all-round guitarist and songwriter. But I think he's gotten worse and worse since he joined the Stones. Mind you he won the lottery joining so he probably doesn't care.
Album: Some Girls and Undercover
Songs: Hey Negrita, Black Limousine, Everything is Turning To Gold, Miss You, BoB, SMU, Whip....
Mathijs
If Brian was so clever as to be responsible for the Stones' 65-66 pop period then he would and should have had his name on the songwriting but I doubt this was the case. The pop direction came from Andrew Loog Oldham who wanted the band to outdo The Beatles.
Brian's role at this point was as a song moulder and shaper. I'd guess that it worked this way: Mick and Keith would bring their latest song into the studio and Brian would inevitably offer up some unusual arrangement or suggest bringing in exotic instruments.
I do think this is true, and I agree they came up with a distinctive sound with Ronnie on Some Girls. But that was 1978, and they never went beyond it, with the exception of the tracks you mentioned.
Really? Then who, in your opinion, is a genius? The dictionary defines Genius as,"An exceptional natural capacity of intellect, especially as shown in creative and original work in science, art, music, etc."
What was Jimi Hendrix? A decent plucker? What was Lennon? A catchy little popster with a canny voice for the radio? Dylan? A word regurgitator?
Are any musicians geniuses? Do you have to play jazz, or be a classical composer to be a genius? Was Bix Beiderbecke a genius? Or just a snappy little cornet player? Do you have to be a theoretical physicist to be a genius?
Who determines what a genius is? If His Majesty's assertion that,"Noone in the stones, or even the pop/rock world was or is in anyway a genius", then many of us have been wrong for the past 50 years; taken in by charlatans who twirled cheap, shiny coins in our faces that we mistook for genius.
Peter Noone was in the Stones?
No, but his look alike was the lead singer.
thank U Max!! I salute u!!
-------------------------------------
"Doctor please, some more men please,
To Cotchford Farm, out by the pool...
What a drag it is they couldn't revive him"
Brian Jones 2/28/42 - 7/2/69
Happy Birthday tonight to "The Rolling Stones"... Brian's band.
I think he was the turmoil that is the Stones really. He tied the band together somehow. Then there was a different band from 1968 and onwards, the Glimmer twins band. Keith stripping him off his lady in public is part of that. Brian's contributions are not in any way overrated. Maybe his persona and huge impact drowns his musical contributions.
I agree. I think the Stones blew it when they failed to make room for Ronnie as a songwriter. Their inspiration was lagging and they should have allowed him full access into their club. But that's how they lost Mick Taylor.
His own personality as a guitarist, which you can clearly hear on songs like "I Can Feel the Fire" is probably best heard on the (uncredited ) lick that ends "Crazy Mama."
For those of us who were Ron Wood fans, it felt like the first chapter of a Wood-influenced Rolling Stones.
Unlike the Jones or Taylor eras, it would never really come to be.
Take a pill and RELAX
Eh? He managed to get more than a dozen songs recorded by a band that consist(ed) of two of the best and most important songwriters in the history of popular music.
And to add -there's is to date no evidence what so ever that Taylor ever contributed anything more to the songwriting than some suggestions and a lick here and there.
Mathijs
Was it really "more than a dozen?" My count is less than that, but even if you're right about the number, it still doesn't discount that Wood was a writing resource that should have been used more when the material they were coming up with was pretty thin.
Regarding Taylor, his participation on tracks where Keith doesn't even play guitar (but still gets a songwriting credit! ) lend credence to his claim that he was ripped off in that regard. But this topic has been beaten to death on other threads.
How it all ties into Brian is that the second guitar spot in the Rolling Stones turns out to be woefully under-appreciated, no matter who that person is.
As we have recently learned it's technically tremolo.
Talk about your favorite band.
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Re: "Brian's contributions are woefully overrated"
Posted by:
Swedgen72
()
Date: July 11, 2011 08:18
Quote
71TeleQuote
Who's Driving Your Plane?
Change the name from Brian to Ronnie and than we can talk
This is quite true. There was a live clip of "Flip The Switch" recently on another thread and Wood was completely superfluous. You could barely hear him. Keith played all the significant parts (so much for the "ancient art of weaving") and the second guitar could have been anyone - or no one. It wouldn't have mattered either way. This was pretty much the case live for all the tours from Steel Wheels until more recently when Keith as clearly struggling more.
The only albums for me where Ronnie is key to the sound of the band are Some Girls, ER and Tattoo You (partially) in descending order of importance.
I'll be honest, I don't think there are any album where Ronnie is a key to the sound. I can't think of one lick of his in the entire time he's been there that jumps out and says "distinctive style, it's clearly me".
It's a shame, I loved the Faces and I respected Ronnie as an all-round guitarist and songwriter. But I think he's gotten worse and worse since he joined the Stones. Mind you he won the lottery joining so he probably doesn't care.
Re: "Brian's contributions are woefully overrated"
Posted by:
Mathijs
()
Date: July 11, 2011 11:41
Quote
Swedgen72
I'll be honest, I don't think there are any album where Ronnie is a key to the sound. I can't think of one lick of his in the entire time he's been there that jumps out and says "distinctive style, it's clearly me".
Album: Some Girls and Undercover
Songs: Hey Negrita, Black Limousine, Everything is Turning To Gold, Miss You, BoB, SMU, Whip....
Mathijs
Re: "Brian's contributions are woefully overrated"
Posted by:
Mathijs
()
Date: July 11, 2011 11:47
He's overrated to some extent. He never was this genius multi-imstrumentalist, he never was anything more than a mediocre guitar player. And although he started the band, he didn't 'found it', in the way that he purposeley choose the right people that could help him make his 'visions' reality. No, there where just some blokes his ages whom liked the blues as much as he did. And with the singer he had to accept the guitarist as well. And the drummer and basist only came half a year later.
But his influence on the Stones can never bo overrated. Just listen to the entire '65 to '68 catalogue and Brian's stamped all over it.
Mathijs
But his influence on the Stones can never bo overrated. Just listen to the entire '65 to '68 catalogue and Brian's stamped all over it.
Mathijs
Re: "Brian's contributions are woefully overrated"
Posted by:
Silver Dagger
()
Date: July 11, 2011 13:12
Quote
Amused
well, isn't Brian mostly to blame for their 1965-1966 pop period?
least attractive Stones era for me...
love their early blues (1964) and Beggars Banquet though....
If Brian was so clever as to be responsible for the Stones' 65-66 pop period then he would and should have had his name on the songwriting but I doubt this was the case. The pop direction came from Andrew Loog Oldham who wanted the band to outdo The Beatles.
Brian's role at this point was as a song moulder and shaper. I'd guess that it worked this way: Mick and Keith would bring their latest song into the studio and Brian would inevitably offer up some unusual arrangement or suggest bringing in exotic instruments.
Re: "Brian's contributions are woefully overrated"
Posted by:
vudicus
()
Date: July 11, 2011 13:30
I personally don't feel Brian is over-rated. There are so many things that he did that made the songs extra special.
Personal favorites:
The choppy Rhythm guitar part on "Surprise Suprise" whilst Keith does the lead licks
The beautiful slide work on "Little Red Rooster"
The Mellotron Meltdown solo on "We Love You" (for me, one of the greatest moments on a Stones record, it sounds like Brian is pouring out his tortured soul into music).
Personal favorites:
The choppy Rhythm guitar part on "Surprise Suprise" whilst Keith does the lead licks
The beautiful slide work on "Little Red Rooster"
The Mellotron Meltdown solo on "We Love You" (for me, one of the greatest moments on a Stones record, it sounds like Brian is pouring out his tortured soul into music).
Re: "Brian's contributions are woefully overrated"
Posted by:
71Tele
()
Date: July 11, 2011 19:00
Quote
MathijsQuote
Swedgen72
I'll be honest, I don't think there are any album where Ronnie is a key to the sound. I can't think of one lick of his in the entire time he's been there that jumps out and says "distinctive style, it's clearly me".
Album: Some Girls and Undercover
Songs: Hey Negrita, Black Limousine, Everything is Turning To Gold, Miss You, BoB, SMU, Whip....
Mathijs
I do think this is true, and I agree they came up with a distinctive sound with Ronnie on Some Girls. But that was 1978, and they never went beyond it, with the exception of the tracks you mentioned.
Re: "Brian's contributions are woefully overrated"
Posted by:
Koen
()
Date: July 11, 2011 19:30
His slide and harmonica on stage as well as attitude and drive off stage defined the original Stones and helped them become very popular. If that had not happened, the rest of their careers would have been very different. So, no I don't think his cpntributions are overrated, they are what they are, and the rest is history.
Re: "Brian's contributions are woefully overrated"
Posted by:
Title5Take1
()
Date: July 11, 2011 19:42
If Brian is overrated, his young death obviously added a sort of doomed Thomas Chatterton type lustre.
As John Lennon wrote in Nobody Loves You (When You're Down and Out), "Everybody loves you when you're six feet in the ground."
Like I don't think Brian Wilson would be given the "genius" label if it weren't for his eccentricity-producing mental illness. I'd rate Wilson a first rate pop talent, but not a genius.
As John Lennon wrote in Nobody Loves You (When You're Down and Out), "Everybody loves you when you're six feet in the ground."
Like I don't think Brian Wilson would be given the "genius" label if it weren't for his eccentricity-producing mental illness. I'd rate Wilson a first rate pop talent, but not a genius.
Re: "Brian's contributions are woefully overrated"
Posted by:
His Majesty
()
Date: July 11, 2011 19:51
The word genius is used far to easily! Noone in the stones or even the pop/rock world was or is in anyway a genius.
Re: "Brian's contributions are woefully overrated"
Posted by:
24FPS
()
Date: July 11, 2011 21:51
Quote
His Majesty
The word genius is used far to easily! Noone in the stones or even the pop/rock world was or is in anyway a genius.
Really? Then who, in your opinion, is a genius? The dictionary defines Genius as,"An exceptional natural capacity of intellect, especially as shown in creative and original work in science, art, music, etc."
What was Jimi Hendrix? A decent plucker? What was Lennon? A catchy little popster with a canny voice for the radio? Dylan? A word regurgitator?
Are any musicians geniuses? Do you have to play jazz, or be a classical composer to be a genius? Was Bix Beiderbecke a genius? Or just a snappy little cornet player? Do you have to be a theoretical physicist to be a genius?
Who determines what a genius is? If His Majesty's assertion that,"Noone in the stones, or even the pop/rock world was or is in anyway a genius", then many of us have been wrong for the past 50 years; taken in by charlatans who twirled cheap, shiny coins in our faces that we mistook for genius.
Re: "Brian's contributions are woefully overrated"
Posted by:
His Majesty
()
Date: July 12, 2011 00:14
Relax, take a deep breath! 
Re: "Brian's contributions are woefully overrated"
Posted by:
Max'sKansasCity
()
Date: July 12, 2011 00:32
I usually dont comment on these "no win threads", but.....
beings it was 49 years ago tonight Brian's baby played it first gig....
I always wondered why folks cant just repect the "living impaired" and give people credit for thier deeds, and what sprung from those deeds. "woefully overrated"? what kind of person would use those words referring to Brian and the Rolling Stones? that is just disrespecful and sad.
Cheers to Brian and his band.
Thanks Brian, for all you did, I sure am glad you did.
R.I.P.
Brian Jones
beings it was 49 years ago tonight Brian's baby played it first gig....
I always wondered why folks cant just repect the "living impaired" and give people credit for thier deeds, and what sprung from those deeds. "woefully overrated"? what kind of person would use those words referring to Brian and the Rolling Stones? that is just disrespecful and sad.
Cheers to Brian and his band.
Thanks Brian, for all you did, I sure am glad you did.
R.I.P.
Brian Jones
Re: "Brian's contributions are woefully overrated"
Posted by:
Blue
()
Date: July 12, 2011 00:36
How can anyone who made "Paint It, Black" sound incredibly brilliant with the sitar, "Mona" with an outstanding Vibrato (even Bo Diddley said Brian was the best imitator of Bo's Vibrato"), mesmerizing harmonica on "Not Fade Away" and several other songs, unforgettable riff on "The Last Time" be called "woefully overrated", slide on "Little Red Rooster". (do you think it would have gone to numberer one without that slide?).... These are the sounds that DEFINED the sixties IMHO. Not to mention the person that taught MICK JAGGER the harmonica...and even KIETH RICHARDS, as much as he likes to bash the founder of his original Stones, states in his book he learned a lot of guitar techniques from Brian... he was the most schooled musician in the beginning..... Without Brian in the original Stone lineup... Things would have been a lot different....just listen to "Little Boy Blue" to get an idea.
Re: "Brian's contributions are woefully overrated"
Posted by:
71Tele
()
Date: July 12, 2011 00:39
Quote
His Majesty
The word genius is used far to easily! Noone in the stones or even the pop/rock world was or is in anyway a genius.
Peter Noone was in the Stones?
Re: "Brian's contributions are woefully overrated"
Posted by:
loog droog
()
Date: July 12, 2011 00:43
Quote
71TeleQuote
His Majesty
The word genius is used far to easily! Noone in the stones or even the pop/rock world was or is in anyway a genius.
Peter Noone was in the Stones?
No, but his look alike was the lead singer.
Re: "Brian's contributions are woefully overrated"
Posted by:
Title5Take1
()
Date: July 12, 2011 01:26
I heard a controversial comedian (I won't say who to avoid the distraction of his reputation)—ANYWAY, this comedian who I think is very funny was told on the radio by a listener "I think you're a genius." And the comedian said, "Geniuses are people like physicists and inventors." Good point, I thought (excepting people like the inventors of Silly String and the like!).
Re: "Brian's contributions are woefully overrated"
Posted by:
mickschix
()
Date: July 12, 2011 01:43
Brian created the turmoil that ended up taking him down. He was no victim, he was a man that thrived on drama, tried to drive a wedge between Mick and Keith because he was jealous beyond words that they were creating quite a catalog of songs and he couldn't write to save his soul!!! Yup, he played recored on " Ruby Tuesday", and yup he was creative in spurts but he was scattered, totally unfocused and in it to " pull birds" and out shine his bandmates. Just my opinion.
Re: "Brian's contributions are woefully overrated"
Posted by:
His Majesty
()
Date: July 12, 2011 01:59
Quote
mickschix
Just my opinion.
Re: "Brian's contributions are woefully overrated"
Posted by:
MissNBrian
()
Date: July 12, 2011 03:44
Quote
Max'sKansasCity
I usually dont comment on these "no win threads", but.....
beings it was 49 years ago tonight Brian's baby played it first gig....
I always wondered why folks cant just repect the "living impaired" and give people credit for thier deeds, and what sprung from those deeds. "woefully overrated"? what kind of person would use those words referring to Brian and the Rolling Stones? that is just disrespecful and sad.
Cheers to Brian and his band.
Thanks Brian, for all you did, I sure am glad you did.
R.I.P.
Brian Jones
thank U Max!! I salute u!!
-------------------------------------
"Doctor please, some more men please,
To Cotchford Farm, out by the pool...
What a drag it is they couldn't revive him"
Brian Jones 2/28/42 - 7/2/69
Re: "Brian's contributions are woefully overrated"
Posted by:
Max'sKansasCity
()
Date: July 12, 2011 03:56
Right back at you... you have a great screen nameQuote
MissNBrian
thank U Max!! I salute u!!
-------------------------------------
Happy Birthday tonight to "The Rolling Stones"... Brian's band.
Re: "Brian's contributions are woefully overrated"
Posted by:
Blue
()
Date: July 12, 2011 04:06
Well said MissNBrian..... To Brian Jones! Original founder of the greatest rock and roll band in the world....ever.
. To Brian Jones! Original founder of the greatest rock and roll band in the world....ever. Re: "Brian's contributions are woefully overrated"
Posted by:
tonterapi
()
Date: July 12, 2011 09:56
Yeah, Brian wore a black hat and Mick and Keith had the white ones. Sorry, but your post really made my BS-meter scream.Quote
mickschix
Brian created the turmoil that ended up taking him down. He was no victim, he was a man that thrived on drama, tried to drive a wedge between Mick and Keith because he was jealous beyond words that they were creating quite a catalog of songs and he couldn't write to save his soul!!! Yup, he played recored on " Ruby Tuesday", and yup he was creative in spurts but he was scattered, totally unfocused and in it to " pull birds" and out shine his bandmates. Just my opinion.
Re: "Brian's contributions are woefully overrated"
Posted by:
Redhotcarpet
()
Date: July 12, 2011 10:34
Quote
mickschix
Brian created the turmoil that ended up taking him down.
I think he was the turmoil that is the Stones really. He tied the band together somehow. Then there was a different band from 1968 and onwards, the Glimmer twins band. Keith stripping him off his lady in public is part of that. Brian's contributions are not in any way overrated. Maybe his persona and huge impact drowns his musical contributions.
Re: "Brian's contributions are woefully overrated"
Posted by:
loog droog
()
Date: July 12, 2011 17:38
Quote
Swedgen72
I can't think of one lick of his in the entire time he's been there that jumps out and says "distinctive style, it's clearly me".
It's a shame, I loved the Faces and I respected Ronnie as an all-round guitarist and songwriter. But I think he's gotten worse and worse since he joined the Stones. Mind you he won the lottery joining so he probably doesn't care.
I agree. I think the Stones blew it when they failed to make room for Ronnie as a songwriter. Their inspiration was lagging and they should have allowed him full access into their club. But that's how they lost Mick Taylor.
His own personality as a guitarist, which you can clearly hear on songs like "I Can Feel the Fire" is probably best heard on the (uncredited ) lick that ends "Crazy Mama."
For those of us who were Ron Wood fans, it felt like the first chapter of a Wood-influenced Rolling Stones.
Unlike the Jones or Taylor eras, it would never really come to be.
Re: "Brian's contributions are woefully overrated"
Posted by:
mickscarey
()
Date: July 12, 2011 17:45
Quote
24FPSQuote
His Majesty
The word genius is used far to easily! Noone in the stones or even the pop/rock world was or is in anyway a genius.
Really? Then who, in your opinion, is a genius? The dictionary defines Genius as,"An exceptional natural capacity of intellect, especially as shown in creative and original work in science, art, music, etc."
What was Jimi Hendrix? A decent plucker? What was Lennon? A catchy little popster with a canny voice for the radio? Dylan? A word regurgitator?
Are any musicians geniuses? Do you have to play jazz, or be a classical composer to be a genius? Was Bix Beiderbecke a genius? Or just a snappy little cornet player? Do you have to be a theoretical physicist to be a genius?
Who determines what a genius is? If His Majesty's assertion that,"Noone in the stones, or even the pop/rock world was or is in anyway a genius", then many of us have been wrong for the past 50 years; taken in by charlatans who twirled cheap, shiny coins in our faces that we mistook for genius.
Take a pill and RELAX
Re: "Brian's contributions are woefully overrated"
Posted by:
Mathijs
()
Date: July 12, 2011 21:08
Quote
loog droog
I agree. I think the Stones blew it when they failed to make room for Ronnie as a songwriter. Their inspiration was lagging and they should have allowed him full access into their club. But that's how they lost Mick Taylor.
Eh? He managed to get more than a dozen songs recorded by a band that consist(ed) of two of the best and most important songwriters in the history of popular music.
And to add -there's is to date no evidence what so ever that Taylor ever contributed anything more to the songwriting than some suggestions and a lick here and there.
Mathijs
Re: "Brian's contributions are woefully overrated"
Posted by:
Anonymous User
()
Date: July 12, 2011 22:12
And to add -there's is to date no evidence what so ever that Taylor ever contributed anything more to the songwriting than some suggestions and a lick here and there.
<Mathijs>
Which proves once more that songwriting is only one side of the coin,
judging their live performances.
<Mathijs>
Which proves once more that songwriting is only one side of the coin,
judging their live performances.
Re: "Brian's contributions are woefully overrated"
Posted by:
loog droog
()
Date: July 12, 2011 23:06
Quote
Mathijs
Eh? He managed to get more than a dozen songs recorded by a band that consist(ed) of two of the best and most important songwriters in the history of popular music.
And to add -there's is to date no evidence what so ever that Taylor ever contributed anything more to the songwriting than some suggestions and a lick here and there.
Mathijs
Was it really "more than a dozen?" My count is less than that, but even if you're right about the number, it still doesn't discount that Wood was a writing resource that should have been used more when the material they were coming up with was pretty thin.
Regarding Taylor, his participation on tracks where Keith doesn't even play guitar (but still gets a songwriting credit! ) lend credence to his claim that he was ripped off in that regard. But this topic has been beaten to death on other threads.
How it all ties into Brian is that the second guitar spot in the Rolling Stones turns out to be woefully under-appreciated, no matter who that person is.
Re: "Brian's contributions are woefully overrated"
Posted by:
FreeBird
()
Date: July 12, 2011 23:31
I almost agree. I don't think Ron Wood is really underappreciated, but the other two certainly are.Quote
loog droog
How it all ties into Brian is that the second guitar spot in the Rolling Stones turns out to be woefully under-appreciated, no matter who that person is.
Re: "Brian's contributions are woefully overrated"
Posted by:
DragonSky
()
Date: July 13, 2011 00:40
Quote
Blue
How can anyone who made "Paint It, Black" sound incredibly brilliant with the sitar, "Mona" with an outstanding Vibrato (even Bo Diddley said Brian was the best imitator of Bo's Vibrato
As we have recently learned it's technically tremolo.
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