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Haha! That's probably true! >
<
He played pretty well on the Jumpin Jack Flash promo on the version where they miked them live.
No Expectations at R&R Circus was excellent.
But other than that, he was useless at that point. They didn't want him anyway.
He was great on Still A Fool too...
E-X-A-C-T-L-Y my thoughts, too!
I third this. It has never made sense that Brian supposedly left the Stones because he "didn't see eye to eye over the discs we are cutting" (his words) at precisely the same time they were returning to their blues roots. The truth is that Brian dropped out psychologically years before because he could not deal with the fact that the songs being recorded were someone else's, and he had lost control of "his" band. He made himself, and others, miserable and was emotionally and physically extremely unstable. This doesn't mean that there weren' still moments of competence or even brilliance, just that the overall trajectory was a very negative one, and there was no going back by 1969.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-06-21 00:14 by 71Tele.
You've got some good points here, particularly the part about Brian not liking what the Stones were doing in 69-69 (when really that was Brian music all the way). To me, Beggars and LIB are what Brian is all about when it comes to a back to basics blues formula which he always advocated. Brian remains an enigma! But I will say this: Brian seemed to be going back to the guitar, if No Expectations and Still A Fool were any indication. His 'shaky' but sublime slide guitar on NE is clear evidence that he had not lost his touch and that there were good things to come.
I heard that too about Ronnie in 1969. I think that's just more of Keith's BS'ing the press. I also have to say that if Brian's problems didn't get him booted in 1969, then suggesting the Stones do a prog-rock album would have. Not saying that because I'm one of those Jan Wenner anti-prog types, but I just can't fathom Keith Richards going along with that.
Not sure when "Might As Well Get Juiced" was written, but if you can, track down a boot with the live version from MSG 1998. It is so superior to the one on Bridges to Babylon.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-06-21 10:33 by stevecardi.
Harrison always seemed to enjoy his being a Beatle less than any of the others, but even he acknowledges the magic. Obviously we don't see the money problems and the bickering and the long hours in the studio, but the magic was certainly there. I think they very astutely realized exactly when the magic would run out and quit about the right time, instead of turning themselves into a cash-machine nostalgia act, like certain other bands we know, long after the creative well had run dry.
Brian no doubt was quite frustrated that he couldn't write songs. A more secure person with a less grandiose view of himself would have simply accepted that limitation and allowed his talent to develop in other directions, as he sometimes did. A band is a very fragile and potentially unstable mix of personalities, which is why most bands don't last. The Stones were (are?) fortunate to have people who balance each other out to a large degree. But with Brian, it got to be where that balance could not hold, because he needed so much attention, and yet most of the attention was falling where it naturally does, on the creative and showmanship part of the band. Brian could not tolerate that so he constantly set himself up for disappointment. Usually very insecure or paranoid people eventually actualize their own worst fear, which in his case was to be ostracized by the others.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-06-21 10:06 by 71Tele.
Bill has the story about him and Brian each having a song that they wanted to have recorded but that it was impossible to get some time to do so. When a Jagger/Richards was done there was always another and another and so on.
Brian's girlfriends, Bill and Aleksis Korner has said that Brian did try to write songs but his insecurity stopped him for showing them to the rest and usually ended with him erasing them from the tapes he'd done.
His soundtrack from 66 is not bad. Peronally I don't think that Brian ever had any talent to write commercial stuff like Mick and Keith but I do believe that Brian would have had a future in composing soundtracks and producing world music.
Brian was broke in 1969 and in dept when he left the band. Selling Cotchford didn't pay much of that dept either after he died. That said, as we know, Brian was promised money from the Stones and had tried to get them before he died to pay the workers at Cotchford but Klein, who was buggled by the idea to "pay that little shit" money denied him them by ignoring Brian's request from the fax machines and telephones.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-06-21 11:57 by tonterapi.
They had fax machines in 1969???
That's what I said on page 1 of this thread:
I think the main reason Brian left the band was the Anita situation. Once she left for Keith, it was the beginning of the end. He felt betrayed by Keith. Brian was perhaps insecure and paranoid to a degree, but this was the same person who had the confidence and drive to form the Rolling Stones. Brian could no longer stand Mick and Keith, and that's the reason why he exited the band.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-06-21 23:45 by neptune.
I don't think it had much to do with the music either.
None of the JJF promo's feature the band playing live!
Why is that? That was May of '68. The Rock and Roll Circus is December of '68. And if that is any indication of Brian's guitar playing ability, they may have been able to count on him for a side spot on 'Love In Vain', but that's about it.
+1. I believe that anything else said about his slow departure are sideffects of the whole "Anita leaving Brian" drama. Of course it destroyed the guy and of course he couldnt stay in the band after that. I kinda have the same thoughts about his death although that could be FT.
Nah. You dont suddenly not know how to play the guitar. He "lost interest" according to the lore. And broke his hand. Etc. I think he had a ego fight with Mick, Keith and ALO and it worked out fine in 1965/1966. He was in a haze in 1968 and the way I see it, more or less suicidal. I dont think its possible to say anything about his abilities in 1968 other than that. He was a ghost.
Brian, according to Bill and Keith, pretty much laid down the guitar for a few years and started monkeying around (quite effectively) with other instruments. Keith kept working at it and evolving, and Brian stopped getting better. Brian is the one who stopped weaving. Brian could have developed further on the guitar but he didn't. Then, when he was forced to pick it up again, because they weren't using side instruments anymore, he was way behind the curve. Personally I think he was lazy. He could pick up any instrument and get something useful out of it quickly. Then he could discard the instrument and not be bothered to continue learning it. Eventually it caught up to him and Brian was caught in a situation where it was 'put up your guitar, or shut up'. Brian got caught with his pants down, and his guitar skills eroded.
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Re: If Brian Jones was alive and a member of the Stones during the 69' US tour
Posted by:
24FPS
()
Date: June 20, 2011 19:23
Brian is still inscrutable. What the hell kind of music did he want to make? He supposedly loved Creedence Clearwater Revival and he liked Johnny Winter. Uh, these are the same styles of music the Stones were playing circa '68 & '69. Psychedelic music was over. Brian didn't 'agree with the sides we are cutting' or whatever face saving nonsense he put out after getting canned. Two of the best albums of the Stones career, Beggar's Banquet and Let It Bleed, and he wasn't satisfied. More than ever, the Stones were making high octane 'Brian' music, and he wasn't satisfied. He was always a bit of a noodge during the fast rockers. He never seemed that engaged with the Chuck Berry numbers.
Brian couldn't keep up. He wasn't engaged. He'd put himself into such a state where he couldn't/wouldn't contribute to the Stones. He turned the quintet into a quartet. Brian dropped from a full member to a sideman; a great sideman for a while until no one needed zithers/octaroons/kazoos/slide whistles, or any other exotica. The very thing that he, Brian Jones, practically created with his solo on 'I Wanna Be Your Man', fast, fluid, able slide guitar solos, is something he could no longer deliver. Enter Mick Taylor.
Brian couldn't keep up. He wasn't engaged. He'd put himself into such a state where he couldn't/wouldn't contribute to the Stones. He turned the quintet into a quartet. Brian dropped from a full member to a sideman; a great sideman for a while until no one needed zithers/octaroons/kazoos/slide whistles, or any other exotica. The very thing that he, Brian Jones, practically created with his solo on 'I Wanna Be Your Man', fast, fluid, able slide guitar solos, is something he could no longer deliver. Enter Mick Taylor.
Re: If Brian Jones was alive and a member of the Stones during the 69' US tour
Posted by:
sealingwax
()
Date: June 20, 2011 20:29
I seem to recall reading in one of Andrew Loog Oldhams "Stoned" books, his opinion that if Brian had been in the band still when they played Altamont, none of them would have got out alive!
Re: If Brian Jones was alive and a member of the Stones during the 69' US tour
Posted by:
Redhotcarpet
()
Date: June 20, 2011 21:17
Actually it could have worked IF Brian and Keith had talked and found a new way of coping on a professional level. Look at Keith and Mick a few years later. The only way for them to function is having separete lives. If Brian had found something else on the side, in his life, he could have functioned in the band as one of the three main charcters, the real founder now finding his new place as a very good slide guitarist and harmonica player (he was), sometimes using more exotic and or electronical stuff. A star within the band. But it was not a question of visa it was personal, Anita being the obvious main reason. It was his depression and the band had two or maybe three colliding stars. He must have hated Keith.
Re: If Brian Jones was alive and a member of the Stones during the 69' US tour
Posted by:
Sleepy City
()
Date: June 20, 2011 22:12
Quote
sealingwax
I seem to recall reading in one of Andrew Loog Oldhams "Stoned" books, his opinion that if Brian had been in the band still when they played Altamont, none of them would have got out alive!
Haha! That's probably true! >
<Re: If Brian Jones was alive and a member of the Stones during the 69' US tour
Posted by:
Brue
()
Date: June 20, 2011 22:24
Quote
71TeleQuote
littlejim13
Ive seen it and believe me its not pretty, but I remember hearing that he wanted to go on tour with the stones in 1969 and fully intended to if he couldve gotten his work visa. I mean by all accounts he was fine months earlier playing at the 68 nme concert so, hypothetically if he knows hes going on a huge tour with the band I assume he couldve gotten himself at least somewhat ready for it.
There were reports of Brian playing music and in better shape before he died. But how much of that was because of the relief of finally being out of the Stones? And during this supposed period of improvement he, um, died. That's why these hypotheticals are so difficult.
He played pretty well on the Jumpin Jack Flash promo on the version where they miked them live.
No Expectations at R&R Circus was excellent.
But other than that, he was useless at that point. They didn't want him anyway.
Re: If Brian Jones was alive and a member of the Stones during the 69' US tour
Posted by:
tonterapi
()
Date: June 20, 2011 22:30
I don't think that Brian hated Keith despite what had happend. Brian was hurt but he was still able to meet up with Keith and Nicky Hopkins in the studio during the sessions for Satanic Majesties and Keith let Brian and Suki stay at Redlands after Brian's second bust. I believe that they both wanted it to work but that Brian's depression, drug use and absense in the studio made that impossible in 68/69. That and Anita's presence I guess. She must have loved every second of it. Just watch One Plus One.Quote
Redhotcarpet
He must have hated Keith.
Re: If Brian Jones was alive and a member of the Stones during the 69' US tour
Posted by:
Sleepy City
()
Date: June 20, 2011 22:35
Quote
Brue
He played pretty well on the Jumpin Jack Flash promo on the version where they miked them live.
No Expectations at R&R Circus was excellent.
But other than that, he was useless at that point. They didn't want him anyway.
He was great on Still A Fool too...
Re: If Brian Jones was alive and a member of the Stones during the 69' US tour
Posted by:
duke richardson
()
Date: June 20, 2011 22:58
24FPS, your posts are cool.
>> a great sideman for a while until no one needed zithers/octaroons/kazoos/slide whistles, or any other exotica<<
but boy could he play a lute!
>> a great sideman for a while until no one needed zithers/octaroons/kazoos/slide whistles, or any other exotica<<
but boy could he play a lute!
Re: If Brian Jones was alive and a member of the Stones during the 69' US tour
Posted by:
alimente
()
Date: June 20, 2011 23:23
Quote
24FPS
Brian is still inscrutable. What the hell kind of music did he want to make? He supposedly loved Creedence Clearwater Revival and he liked Johnny Winter. Uh, these are the same styles of music the Stones were playing circa '68 & '69. Psychedelic music was over. Brian didn't 'agree with the sides we are cutting' or whatever face saving nonsense he put out after getting canned. Two of the best albums of the Stones career, Beggar's Banquet and Let It Bleed, and he wasn't satisfied. More than ever, the Stones were making high octane 'Brian' music, and he wasn't satisfied. He was always a bit of a noodge during the fast rockers. He never seemed that engaged with the Chuck Berry numbers.
Brian couldn't keep up. He wasn't engaged. He'd put himself into such a state where he couldn't/wouldn't contribute to the Stones. He turned the quintet into a quartet. Brian dropped from a full member to a sideman; a great sideman for a while until no one needed zithers/octaroons/kazoos/slide whistles, or any other exotica. The very thing that he, Brian Jones, practically created with his solo on 'I Wanna Be Your Man', fast, fluid, able slide guitar solos, is something he could no longer deliver. Enter Mick Taylor.
E-X-A-C-T-L-Y my thoughts, too!
Re: If Brian Jones was alive and a member of the Stones during the 69' US tour
Posted by:
71Tele
()
Date: June 21, 2011 00:13
Quote
alimenteQuote
24FPS
Brian is still inscrutable. What the hell kind of music did he want to make? He supposedly loved Creedence Clearwater Revival and he liked Johnny Winter. Uh, these are the same styles of music the Stones were playing circa '68 & '69. Psychedelic music was over. Brian didn't 'agree with the sides we are cutting' or whatever face saving nonsense he put out after getting canned. Two of the best albums of the Stones career, Beggar's Banquet and Let It Bleed, and he wasn't satisfied. More than ever, the Stones were making high octane 'Brian' music, and he wasn't satisfied. He was always a bit of a noodge during the fast rockers. He never seemed that engaged with the Chuck Berry numbers.
Brian couldn't keep up. He wasn't engaged. He'd put himself into such a state where he couldn't/wouldn't contribute to the Stones. He turned the quintet into a quartet. Brian dropped from a full member to a sideman; a great sideman for a while until no one needed zithers/octaroons/kazoos/slide whistles, or any other exotica. The very thing that he, Brian Jones, practically created with his solo on 'I Wanna Be Your Man', fast, fluid, able slide guitar solos, is something he could no longer deliver. Enter Mick Taylor.
E-X-A-C-T-L-Y my thoughts, too!
I third this. It has never made sense that Brian supposedly left the Stones because he "didn't see eye to eye over the discs we are cutting" (his words) at precisely the same time they were returning to their blues roots. The truth is that Brian dropped out psychologically years before because he could not deal with the fact that the songs being recorded were someone else's, and he had lost control of "his" band. He made himself, and others, miserable and was emotionally and physically extremely unstable. This doesn't mean that there weren' still moments of competence or even brilliance, just that the overall trajectory was a very negative one, and there was no going back by 1969.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-06-21 00:14 by 71Tele.
Re: If Brian Jones was alive and a member of the Stones during the 69' US tour
Posted by:
neptune
()
Date: June 21, 2011 00:42
Quote
24FPS
Brian is still inscrutable. What the hell kind of music did he want to make? He supposedly loved Creedence Clearwater Revival and he liked Johnny Winter. Uh, these are the same styles of music the Stones were playing circa '68 & '69. Psychedelic music was over. Brian didn't 'agree with the sides we are cutting' or whatever face saving nonsense he put out after getting canned. Two of the best albums of the Stones career, Beggar's Banquet and Let It Bleed, and he wasn't satisfied. More than ever, the Stones were making high octane 'Brian' music, and he wasn't satisfied. He was always a bit of a noodge during the fast rockers. He never seemed that engaged with the Chuck Berry numbers.
Brian couldn't keep up. He wasn't engaged. He'd put himself into such a state where he couldn't/wouldn't contribute to the Stones. He turned the quintet into a quartet. Brian dropped from a full member to a sideman; a great sideman for a while until no one needed zithers/octaroons/kazoos/slide whistles, or any other exotica. The very thing that he, Brian Jones, practically created with his solo on 'I Wanna Be Your Man', fast, fluid, able slide guitar solos, is something he could no longer deliver. Enter Mick Taylor.
You've got some good points here, particularly the part about Brian not liking what the Stones were doing in 69-69 (when really that was Brian music all the way). To me, Beggars and LIB are what Brian is all about when it comes to a back to basics blues formula which he always advocated. Brian remains an enigma! But I will say this: Brian seemed to be going back to the guitar, if No Expectations and Still A Fool were any indication. His 'shaky' but sublime slide guitar on NE is clear evidence that he had not lost his touch and that there were good things to come.
Re: If Brian Jones was alive and a member of the Stones during the 69' US tour
Posted by:
stevecardi
()
Date: June 21, 2011 05:59
Hard to say. Obviously a lot had changed since they last toured, but Paris 1967 shows that Brian was still more than capable of playing live, so in theory, he still could have been up to it. Then again, it's painful to imagine a live "Love in Vain" and "Midnight Rambler" without Mick T
Re: If Brian Jones was alive and a member of the Stones during the 69' US tour
Posted by:
BrianJones1969
()
Date: June 21, 2011 08:30
Did the Stones nearly hire Ronnie Wood (instead of Mick Taylor) the year Brian died? A missed phone call may suggest why.
Also ... if Brian were still alive and was still in good spirits with the rest of the group, maybe the Stones could've cut a prog-rock album during the 1970s ... I must think that "Might As Well Get Juiced" was a very old song and not recorded until 1997. That song could've been a great cut, musically speaking (remember those analog-sounding synthesizer sweeps that creep up on the song every now and then?) on a 1970s Stones record.
~Ben
Also ... if Brian were still alive and was still in good spirits with the rest of the group, maybe the Stones could've cut a prog-rock album during the 1970s ... I must think that "Might As Well Get Juiced" was a very old song and not recorded until 1997. That song could've been a great cut, musically speaking (remember those analog-sounding synthesizer sweeps that creep up on the song every now and then?) on a 1970s Stones record.
~Ben
Re: If Brian Jones was alive and a member of the Stones during the 69' US tour
Posted by:
24FPS
()
Date: June 21, 2011 09:03
It so hard to fathom that entities like the Stones and Beatles are really just a group of guys, some are friends, some just thrown together out of necessity. And that all their egos collide as each individual thinks, "Well, what does this do for me?" We think of the Beatles as magic, and yet Harrison said it was hell. He had to fight to get even a few of his songs on the Lennon-McCartney dominated albums. We think of Jagger/Richards songs as wonderful, and yet there's Brian resenting their very success, wishing it could be him getting the critical stroking from writing rock masterpieces. It seems the better the songs got, and the more attention, and money, that Keith and Mick got, the more resentful he became.
Yet, there's usually a reason for what happened. Brian supposedly couldn't write a song to save his life. Harrison's first efforts, 'Don't Bother Me', 'I Need You', 'You Like Me Too Much', aren't that special, when put up against John & Paul's abilities, with no indication they would get much, much better as time went on. Brian must have been impossible to deal with. Flashes of musical brilliance and purity and genius, followed by vanity and pettiness. I wonder what his financial situation was? Bill said he and Charlie had very little money by 1969, from lack of touring, but that Mick and Keith were well off from royalties. Brian was on par financially with Bill and Charlie, which probably ticked him off too. With all this moaning about no money, they suddenly have a big payout for Brian when they can him. I wonder if he had to sign over all his future mechanical royalties and all rights to the band?
Yet, there's usually a reason for what happened. Brian supposedly couldn't write a song to save his life. Harrison's first efforts, 'Don't Bother Me', 'I Need You', 'You Like Me Too Much', aren't that special, when put up against John & Paul's abilities, with no indication they would get much, much better as time went on. Brian must have been impossible to deal with. Flashes of musical brilliance and purity and genius, followed by vanity and pettiness. I wonder what his financial situation was? Bill said he and Charlie had very little money by 1969, from lack of touring, but that Mick and Keith were well off from royalties. Brian was on par financially with Bill and Charlie, which probably ticked him off too. With all this moaning about no money, they suddenly have a big payout for Brian when they can him. I wonder if he had to sign over all his future mechanical royalties and all rights to the band?
Re: If Brian Jones was alive and a member of the Stones during the 69' US tour
Posted by:
stevecardi
()
Date: June 21, 2011 10:04
Quote
BrianJones1969
Did the Stones nearly hire Ronnie Wood (instead of Mick Taylor) the year Brian died? A missed phone call may suggest why.
Also ... if Brian were still alive and was still in good spirits with the rest of the group, maybe the Stones could've cut a prog-rock album during the 1970s ... I must think that "Might As Well Get Juiced" was a very old song and not recorded until 1997. That song could've been a great cut, musically speaking (remember those analog-sounding synthesizer sweeps that creep up on the song every now and then?) on a 1970s Stones record.
~Ben
I heard that too about Ronnie in 1969. I think that's just more of Keith's BS'ing the press. I also have to say that if Brian's problems didn't get him booted in 1969, then suggesting the Stones do a prog-rock album would have. Not saying that because I'm one of those Jan Wenner anti-prog types, but I just can't fathom Keith Richards going along with that.
Not sure when "Might As Well Get Juiced" was written, but if you can, track down a boot with the live version from MSG 1998. It is so superior to the one on Bridges to Babylon.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-06-21 10:33 by stevecardi.
Re: If Brian Jones was alive and a member of the Stones during the 69' US tour
Posted by:
71Tele
()
Date: June 21, 2011 10:05
Quote
24FPS
It so hard to fathom that entities like the Stones and Beatles are really just a group of guys, some are friends, some just thrown together out of necessity. And that all their egos collide as each individual thinks, "Well, what does this do for me?" We think of the Beatles as magic, and yet Harrison said it was hell. He had to fight to get even a few of his songs on the Lennon-McCartney dominated albums. We think of Jagger/Richards songs as wonderful, and yet there's Brian resenting their very success, wishing it could be him getting the critical stroking from writing rock masterpieces. It seems the better the songs got, and the more attention, and money, that Keith and Mick got, the more resentful he became.
Yet, there's usually a reason for what happened. Brian supposedly couldn't write a song to save his life. Harrison's first efforts, 'Don't Bother Me', 'I Need You', 'You Like Me Too Much', aren't that special, when put up against John & Paul's abilities, with no indication they would get much, much better as time went on. Brian must have been impossible to deal with. Flashes of musical brilliance and purity and genius, followed by vanity and pettiness. I wonder what his financial situation was? Bill said he and Charlie had very little money by 1969, from lack of touring, but that Mick and Keith were well off from royalties. Brian was on par financially with Bill and Charlie, which probably ticked him off too. With all this moaning about no money, they suddenly have a big payout for Brian when they can him. I wonder if he had to sign over all his future mechanical royalties and all rights to the band?
Harrison always seemed to enjoy his being a Beatle less than any of the others, but even he acknowledges the magic. Obviously we don't see the money problems and the bickering and the long hours in the studio, but the magic was certainly there. I think they very astutely realized exactly when the magic would run out and quit about the right time, instead of turning themselves into a cash-machine nostalgia act, like certain other bands we know, long after the creative well had run dry.
Brian no doubt was quite frustrated that he couldn't write songs. A more secure person with a less grandiose view of himself would have simply accepted that limitation and allowed his talent to develop in other directions, as he sometimes did. A band is a very fragile and potentially unstable mix of personalities, which is why most bands don't last. The Stones were (are?) fortunate to have people who balance each other out to a large degree. But with Brian, it got to be where that balance could not hold, because he needed so much attention, and yet most of the attention was falling where it naturally does, on the creative and showmanship part of the band. Brian could not tolerate that so he constantly set himself up for disappointment. Usually very insecure or paranoid people eventually actualize their own worst fear, which in his case was to be ostracized by the others.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-06-21 10:06 by 71Tele.
Re: If Brian Jones was alive and a member of the Stones during the 69' US tour
Posted by:
tonterapi
()
Date: June 21, 2011 11:57
It's not easy for one person alone to compete in song writing with "machines" like Lennon/McCartney and Jagger/Richards. They were amazingly talented but egotistical and protective of what they had. Some years after the Beatles split Lennon said that he and George should write a song together on to wich Harrison responded something like "there was never any interest in doing a Lennon/Harrison during the Beatles - why now?" ) I understand that since Harrison had to fight for his songs to be recorded and he has said that they never worked that hard on his numbers as they did on a Lennon/McCartney.Quote
24FPS
Yet, there's usually a reason for what happened. Brian supposedly couldn't write a song to save his life. Harrison's first efforts, 'Don't Bother Me', 'I Need You', 'You Like Me Too Much', aren't that special, when put up against John & Paul's abilities, with no indication they would get much, much better as time went on. Brian must have been impossible to deal with. Flashes of musical brilliance and purity and genius, followed by vanity and pettiness. I wonder what his financial situation was? Bill said he and Charlie had very little money by 1969, from lack of touring, but that Mick and Keith were well off from royalties. Brian was on par financially with Bill and Charlie, which probably ticked him off too. With all this moaning about no money, they suddenly have a big payout for Brian when they can him. I wonder if he had to sign over all his future mechanical royalties and all rights to the band?
Bill has the story about him and Brian each having a song that they wanted to have recorded but that it was impossible to get some time to do so. When a Jagger/Richards was done there was always another and another and so on.
Brian's girlfriends, Bill and Aleksis Korner has said that Brian did try to write songs but his insecurity stopped him for showing them to the rest and usually ended with him erasing them from the tapes he'd done.
His soundtrack from 66 is not bad. Peronally I don't think that Brian ever had any talent to write commercial stuff like Mick and Keith but I do believe that Brian would have had a future in composing soundtracks and producing world music.
Brian was broke in 1969 and in dept when he left the band. Selling Cotchford didn't pay much of that dept either after he died. That said, as we know, Brian was promised money from the Stones and had tried to get them before he died to pay the workers at Cotchford but Klein, who was buggled by the idea to "pay that little shit" money denied him them by ignoring Brian's request from the fax machines and telephones.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-06-21 11:57 by tonterapi.
Re: If Brian Jones was alive and a member of the Stones during the 69' US tour
Posted by:
stones78
()
Date: June 21, 2011 19:34
I think it wouldn't have been bad with Brian putting himself together. It wasn't absolutely necessary for the Stones to have a virtuoso lead player as much as it might have been the "norm" at the time. Beggars Banquet and Let It Bleed don't have that many guitar solos. The arrangements would have been different I guess and Brian could have added a bit more colors & different textures to the live performances.
Re: If Brian Jones was alive and a member of the Stones during the 69' US tour
Posted by:
loog droog
()
Date: June 21, 2011 19:39
Quote
tonterapi
That said, as we know, Brian was promised money from the Stones and had tried to get them before he died to pay the workers at Cotchford but Klein, who was buggled by the idea to "pay that little shit" money denied him them by ignoring Brian's request from the fax machines and telephones.
They had fax machines in 1969???
Re: If Brian Jones was alive and a member of the Stones during the 69' US tour
Posted by:
ChrisM
()
Date: June 21, 2011 20:45
I would 'blame' that on Cream, Hendrix and the like...Quote
Come On
Guitar-solos were beginning to be very important around 1969, both Live and on records (blame Led Zeppelin)...who should have play them -69-70 if not Mick T. Brian Jones? Keith Richards?
Re: If Brian Jones was alive and a member of the Stones during the 69' US tour
Posted by:
Sleepy City
()
Date: June 21, 2011 20:48
Quote
ChrisMI would 'blame' that on Cream, Hendrix and the like...Quote
Come On
Guitar-solos were beginning to be very important around 1969, both Live and on records (blame Led Zeppelin)...who should have play them -69-70 if not Mick T. Brian Jones? Keith Richards?
That's what I said on page 1 of this thread:
Quote
Sleepy City
Led Zeppelin? I blame Hendrix & Cream more. Lenthy guitar solos / jams had become the norm before LZ.
Re: If Brian Jones was alive and a member of the Stones during the 69' US tour
Posted by:
neptune
()
Date: June 21, 2011 23:42
Quote
71Tele
But with Brian, it got to be where that balance could not hold, because he needed so much attention, and yet most of the attention was falling where it naturally does, on the creative and showmanship part of the band. Brian could not tolerate that so he constantly set himself up for disappointment. Usually very insecure or paranoid people eventually actualize their own worst fear, which in his case was to be ostracized by the others.
I think the main reason Brian left the band was the Anita situation. Once she left for Keith, it was the beginning of the end. He felt betrayed by Keith. Brian was perhaps insecure and paranoid to a degree, but this was the same person who had the confidence and drive to form the Rolling Stones. Brian could no longer stand Mick and Keith, and that's the reason why he exited the band.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-06-21 23:45 by neptune.
Re: If Brian Jones was alive and a member of the Stones during the 69' US tour
Posted by:
tonterapi
()
Date: June 22, 2011 00:33
Ok, let's say telegrams and phonecalls instead.Quote
loog droog
They had fax machines in 1969???
+1Quote
neptune
I think the main reason Brian left the band was the Anita situation. Once she left for Keith, it was the beginning of the end. He felt betrayed by Keith. Brian was perhaps insecure and paranoid to a degree, but this was the same person who had the confidence and drive to form the Rolling Stones. Brian could no longer stand Mick and Keith, and that's the reason why he exited the band.
I don't think it had much to do with the music either.Re: If Brian Jones was alive and a member of the Stones during the 69' US tour
Posted by:
His Majesty
()
Date: June 22, 2011 12:52
Quote
Brue
He played pretty well on the Jumpin Jack Flash promo on the version where they miked them live.
No Expectations at R&R Circus was excellent.
None of the JJF promo's feature the band playing live!
Re: If Brian Jones was alive and a member of the Stones during the 69' US tour
Posted by:
littlejim13
()
Date: June 28, 2011 05:37
I Guess the only realistic gauge of his playing ability would be the 2 song set 68 NME Concert, unfortunately...
Re: If Brian Jones was alive and a member of the Stones during the 69' US tour
Posted by:
24FPS
()
Date: June 28, 2011 05:55
Quote
littlejim13
I Guess the only realistic gauge of his playing ability would be the 2 song set 68 NME Concert, unfortunately...
Why is that? That was May of '68. The Rock and Roll Circus is December of '68. And if that is any indication of Brian's guitar playing ability, they may have been able to count on him for a side spot on 'Love In Vain', but that's about it.
Re: If Brian Jones was alive and a member of the Stones during the 69' US tour
Posted by:
Redhotcarpet
()
Date: June 28, 2011 09:27
Quote
neptune
I think the main reason Brian left the band was the Anita situation. Once she left for Keith, it was the beginning of the end. He felt betrayed by Keith. Brian was perhaps insecure and paranoid to a degree, but this was the same person who had the confidence and drive to form the Rolling Stones. Brian could no longer stand Mick and Keith, and that's the reason why he exited the band.
+1. I believe that anything else said about his slow departure are sideffects of the whole "Anita leaving Brian" drama. Of course it destroyed the guy and of course he couldnt stay in the band after that. I kinda have the same thoughts about his death although that could be FT.
Re: If Brian Jones was alive and a member of the Stones during the 69' US tour
Posted by:
Redhotcarpet
()
Date: June 28, 2011 09:35
Quote
24FPSQuote
littlejim13
I Guess the only realistic gauge of his playing ability would be the 2 song set 68 NME Concert, unfortunately...
Why is that? That was May of '68. The Rock and Roll Circus is December of '68. And if that is any indication of Brian's guitar playing ability, they may have been able to count on him for a side spot on 'Love In Vain', but that's about it.
Nah. You dont suddenly not know how to play the guitar. He "lost interest" according to the lore. And broke his hand. Etc. I think he had a ego fight with Mick, Keith and ALO and it worked out fine in 1965/1966. He was in a haze in 1968 and the way I see it, more or less suicidal. I dont think its possible to say anything about his abilities in 1968 other than that. He was a ghost.
Re: If Brian Jones was alive and a member of the Stones during the 69' US tour
Posted by:
24FPS
()
Date: June 28, 2011 19:15
Quote
RedhotcarpetQuote
24FPSQuote
littlejim13
I Guess the only realistic gauge of his playing ability would be the 2 song set 68 NME Concert, unfortunately...
Why is that? That was May of '68. The Rock and Roll Circus is December of '68. And if that is any indication of Brian's guitar playing ability, they may have been able to count on him for a side spot on 'Love In Vain', but that's about it.
Nah. You dont suddenly not know how to play the guitar. He "lost interest" according to the lore. And broke his hand. Etc. I think he had a ego fight with Mick, Keith and ALO and it worked out fine in 1965/1966. He was in a haze in 1968 and the way I see it, more or less suicidal. I dont think its possible to say anything about his abilities in 1968 other than that. He was a ghost.
Brian, according to Bill and Keith, pretty much laid down the guitar for a few years and started monkeying around (quite effectively) with other instruments. Keith kept working at it and evolving, and Brian stopped getting better. Brian is the one who stopped weaving. Brian could have developed further on the guitar but he didn't. Then, when he was forced to pick it up again, because they weren't using side instruments anymore, he was way behind the curve. Personally I think he was lazy. He could pick up any instrument and get something useful out of it quickly. Then he could discard the instrument and not be bothered to continue learning it. Eventually it caught up to him and Brian was caught in a situation where it was 'put up your guitar, or shut up'. Brian got caught with his pants down, and his guitar skills eroded.
Re: If Brian Jones was alive and a member of the Stones during the 69' US tour
Posted by:
BeachGirl
()
Date: July 1, 2011 21:06
First, Brian didn't like Chuck Berry as he didn't feel Berry was bluesie enough. Brian was also taking guitar lessons in 1968 as he felt he could improve his playing. Marianne Faithful, commenting on her new album, felt that the Stones would have been friends and all the bad feelings and crap they felt about Brian would have dissolved over the years. As far as Brian's ousting from the band - personally I feel it was the best thing for him. Yes, the Stones were beginning to go back to their blue roots during 1969 but Brian had gone beyond that and was interested in playing more world music. Additionally, Brian was not a healthy man to begin with (before the drugs) and touring would have definitely been out of the question health wise (putting aside the drug convictions - which the second one - hash in the sock- was a set up between the cops and News of the World who had planted it in Brian's drawer). Brian was lonely despite his girlfriend Anna and it has been noted that Brian's housekeeper, who he was extremely close to, over head Brian wanting to get rid of Anna and the workmen. She also heard Anna and one of the workmen making plans on how to get back at Brian. This has been documented. Personally, knowing the strong swimmer Brian was, I feel that Tom Keylock killed him not Thoroughgood. Keylock was ex-military and was ticked off he got stuck babysitting Brian and not being with Mick and Keith. Today, I feel Brian would have been either making movie soundtracks, which he had already done, or playing world music. He might have gotten another band together and maybe toured like Paul McCartney did with Wings - nothing too strenuous. One last note: Brian eventually did make peace with his parents who had visited him at Cotchford Farm a week or so before he died. His parents, now in their 90's live in a nursing home in Wales. How sad for them to have buried two children in their lifetime. Brian's surviving sister, Barbara, was married, now divorced, and has a son.
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