I saw this post here the other day that said Keith thought Taylor wasn't good in the studio. That notion has really stuck with me since; very interesting premise.
I wonder if Keith, as a producer and bandleader should have harnessed that power, to make it work in his/ the band's benefit in the studio.
What do others think? Because IMO this is a really deep topic about guitarists. And the Stones.

It's funny 'cause I think that Taylor worked best for them in the studio. I mean just listen to what he did in there. Live I've always been more of a Woody and Brian fan. Not that Taylor was bad live. Not at all. From what I've heard on live recordings he's just a tad too much for my taste many times.

JumpingKentFlash

Stupid premise...Just a listen to the results of Taylor in the studio. Keith's comments are purely a result of his jealousy and egomania.

That's your opinion, Tele. It might be that Keith would have wanted the results of Taylor's recordings to be different. Hence the interview where he used 100 Years Ago as an example back in 1973.

When that is said, I don't follow his statement at all myself.

Maybe Keef wasn't criticizing the results of Taylor's work in the studio as much as he was complaining about the difficulty in obtaining those results. There's no question that Taylor was able to deliver good studio performances, but maybe it was like pulling teeth to get those performances out of him. Always seemed to me like Taylor would be very comfortable in the studio, though. Given his lack of stage presence, it's like he might as well be in the studio when he's on stage

I'am curious to know if there are still recordings out there with Taylor on it that couldn't stand the test of releasing, and compare them to the same released tracks with Taylor censored.
That would be realistic evidence, and tell us a lot about the musical disagreements between Keith and MT.

Anyway Jagger stated after MT's departure: "the Rolling Stones are not a band to realize Taylor's ideas."

Mick Taylor has stated that alot of his solos on RS studio tracks were done in one take.

I take it to mean that Keith's wants and expectations weren't being satisfied by the other guitar player(s). Same thing with Brian playing different instruments, Keith often comments as if this was a bad thing.

What Mick and Brian wanted to do was at times, maybe a lot of the time at odds with what Keith wanted them to do.

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terraplane
Mick Taylor has stated that alot of his solos on RS studio tracks were done in one take.

After hours of rehearsals, working out arrangements etc.

You could be right. Maybe he wanted everything to sound like Chuck Berry and Muddy Waters. I think what Brian Jones and Mick Taylor brought to the band were fantastic. Many tracks are elevated by their contributions. Especially more so in the case of Brian Jones.

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terraplane
You could be right. Maybe he wanted everything to sound like Chuck Berry and Muddy Waters. I think what Brian Jones and Mick Taylor brought to the band were fantastic. Many tracks are elevated by their contributions. Especially more so in the case of Brian Jones.

Well he seems to have been happy with Ronnie, so one could argue that he wanted someone who was basically another Keith and a bit of a yes man, which Brian and Mick most certainly weren't.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-04-17 02:51 by His Majesty.

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DandelionPowderman
That's your opinion, Tele. It might be that Keith would have wanted the results of Taylor's recordings to be different. Hence the interview where he used 100 Years Ago as an example back in 1973.

When that is said, I don't follow his statement at all myself.

Obviously it's my opinion...I'm not sure what Taylor and the others thought about Keith not bothering to turn up at all at times. It's a little hard to get results in the studio when you're not there.

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His Majesty

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terraplane
You could be right. Maybe he wanted everything to sound like Chuck Berry and Muddy Waters. I think what Brian Jones and Mick Taylor brought to the band were fantastic. Many tracks are elevated by their contributions. Especially more so in the case of Brian Jones.

Well he seems to have been happy with Ronnie, so one could argue that he wanted someone who was basically another Keith and a bit of a yes man, which Brian and Mick most certainly weren't.

Exactly. I am sure Keith was more comfortable in the studio with Ronnie and enjoyed working with him more. Whether that produced better Rolling Stones music is certainly debatable (and we certainly have debated it!) After following him for years and reading "Life", Keith doesn't seem to be the type of musician who enjoys being challenged, yet it's exactly when he was challenged (studio and live) that he played better and more interesting stuff, imo.

The book "life" has told a little about Keith, the person; maybe more than I really wanted. Because it seems he shattered his own myth with much of this book. So the notion of Keith not being happy with Taylor or Brian in the studio plays right into that picture.
I see it much like Tele71 that he doesn't like to be challenged. That is another reason I used the phrase "Keith, the producer' in original post. As producer it is best to put the ego aside; being challenged is good. A healthy argument in the studio over artistic differences often results in better music. Keith says he goes for the 4 handed guitarist; then will brag about the studio accomplishments from the Brian/ Tayor era of much experimentation. his favorite Stones songs and anecdotes are from 68-72. Hard won, but long lived.

Listen to this from 6:55 and forward - what a perspective that would be for a Stones arena tour. Mick J singing and Mick T playing the blues. Charlie and Daryll would love it as well with their more jazzy drumming style. I guess Ronnie also would be up for it.

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Palace Revolution 2000
The book "life" has told a little about Keith, the person; maybe more than I really wanted. Because it seems he shattered his own myth with much of this book. So the notion of Keith not being happy with Taylor or Brian in the studio plays right into that picture.
I see it much like Tele71 that he doesn't like to be challenged. That is another reason I used the phrase "Keith, the producer' in original post. As producer it is best to put the ego aside; being challenged is good. A healthy argument in the studio over artistic differences often results in better music. Keith says he goes for the 4 handed guitarist; then will brag about the studio accomplishments from the Brian/ Tayor era of much experimentation. his favorite Stones songs and anecdotes are from 68-72. Hard won, but long lived.

Actually, just based on what he wrote in "Life", his favorite songs are the ones where it's mainly HIM playing all the guitars, and his favorite anecdotes are about how he did it all by himself. His proudest accomplishments seem to be JJF and SFM, and his explanation of how he recorded them is one of the best parts of the book. I think he considers those two tracks from '68 to be his peak. We generally don't think of Keith as being some kind of Townshend-like wizard in the studio, but on those tracks he was, and he wanted us to know that he was.

I have heard Keith say that he was sorry that Mick T. left the band. I think at times Keith felt upstaged by Mick. Keith played very few solos in the 70s. But let's not forget that Keith is a Rythym/lead player and not a flat out lead player. Mick Taylor is capable of both. Keith's strenghts lie in his song writing abilities; creating great hooks for songs and laying down uncomparable guitar rythym/lead playing that unfortunately has become a lost art. Let's also not forget that Keith was a major herion addict in the 70s and that effects even the likes of Keith. I think that Mick Taylor was a riddle that the Stones tried to harness in the studio and let him run wild live. Mick T. felt upset that many of his studio playing was lost in the mix. I have a bootleg that has a copy of an article by Keith Richards ex guitar builder/tech in the mide 70s. He states that Mick T. became very angry during the mixing for the Its Only Rock N Roll album. The guitar builder states that Mick T. had worked out a very long solo for "Time Waits For No One", at the final mix down Mick & Keith gave the engineer the signal to fade out just as Mick Taylor's lead got going. Mick T. stormed out of the control room. He then announced his departure from the band at the infamous Faces party.

Soulsurvivor

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tatters
We generally don't think of Keith as being some kind of Townshend-like wizard in the studio, but on those tracks he was, and he wanted us to know that he was.

Indeed! I'd add Gimme Shelter in there too.

He has much to be proud of!

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soulsurvivor1
I have heard Keith say that he was sorry that Mick T. left the band. I think at times Keith felt upstaged by Mick. Keith played very few solos in the 70s. But let's not forget that Keith is a Rythym/lead player and not a flat out lead player. Mick Taylor is capable of both. Keith's strenghts lie in his song writing abilities; creating great hooks for songs and laying down uncomparable guitar rythym/lead playing that unfortunately has become a lost art. Let's also not forget that Keith was a major herion addict in the 70s and that effects even the likes of Keith. I think that Mick Taylor was a riddle that the Stones tried to harness in the studio and let him run wild live. Mick T. felt upset that many of his studio playing was lost in the mix. I have a bootleg that has a copy of an article by Keith Richards ex guitar builder/tech in the mide 70s. He states that Mick T. became very angry during the mixing for the Its Only Rock N Roll album. The guitar builder states that Mick T. had worked out a very long solo for "Time Waits For No One", at the final mix down Mick & Keith gave the engineer the signal to fade out just as Mick Taylor's lead got going. Mick T. stormed out of the control room. He then announced his departure from the band at the infamous Faces party.

Soulsurvivor

Good post. Taylor gets a lot of flac about not being a good rhythmn player. It might be that he suffered by comparison; stage left from the greatest rhtyhm player in rock during his prime. Also Taylor was smoking them so good on lead, that he sort of made his own rhythm playing seem secondary. But on Ya-Ya's e.g some of the best moments, some of the tightest passages of the band just chugging along, come while Taylor is playing rhtyhm. Just like Brian before - I think Taylor did exactly the right kind of rhythm playing that the song asked for.
I always thought that Taylor and Keith are both overall players. There are different type of lead players. Taylor likes to get a melody; something you can hum afterwards; this is why there must have been arguments about writing credits. His solos can be so strong that they shape the actual song. On the other hand this type of solo-ist has it's drawbacks because they can come up dry at times when they are asked to "take a solo in A - go!", and they don't have a 'melody'. Or, they might have one, but it is not a strong one. His solos on live YCAGWYW are legendary but I don't think those descending lines in the chorus that he bases his solos on, are very elegant. They are kind of clunky. On the other hand, his solos in the Blues, when most guys kind of jam around, he creates lyrical passages, that are gorgeous.
Keith comes more from another school of thought where you follow the chords, sometimes just pentatonic scales, and hope for the best. Thing is - Keith is so good at it, and he also had a 2 year crashcourse on the road, that his riffing type solos inch their way towards melody. His riffs become hooks.
For simplicity's sake one could say that Taylor has the innate major scale melodic feel, and applies it to the Blues; Keith has the riff in his blood, and will shine in melody type rock - so they meet in the middle there.

The story about TWFNO is IMO actually a sign of a good producer. yes Taylor got angry, but the solo is just long enough. Actually already pretty long for a Stones studio cut.

Yes I agree it was quite long and it seems that the Stones were tring to meet him halfway. It is a shame that Mick T. isn't with the band any longer, although when Ron Wood first took his place I wasn't too disappointed. Ron will never be Mick T. his playing style is quite different than Mick Taylor's. Ron was an addequate replacement. His work with the faces was stellar. If you have never seen him on the Sounds For Saturday 1971 with the Faces please watch him because he really was quite good at one time. I think alcohol and Keith are responsible for his sometimes non existent role in the Stones. I say no existant because if you Compare his role in the band from 75-78 to the present its like two different things. I have boots of the Stones where Ron barely plays the entire night. At times I thought he forgot how to play! Then, I would hear or see something he did solo and I ask myself; Why doesn't he plat like that with the Stones. Answer; Keith wants to practice thge ancient art of weaving..a good idea but Keith's idea of weaving has Keith doing most of the weaving.Maybe that's why Ron drinks so much ? With the greatest Rock N Roll band but relagated to second bannana..Who knows? The whole thing is weird..I've seen Ron play beautifully with the Stones at times...and other times he sounded dreadful....Just some thoughts....and observations

Soulsurvivor

Ron with the Stones was at first perfect. made all the sense in the world. Almost too much sense.
But it has gone down as a great questionmark in rock'n roll. I don't know if one can go as far as to call it a waste. But Ron was IMO one of the premier rock guitarists with the Faces. I thought his sound and style were unique; and powerful.
He had so much presence and authority. Keith really widdled that down to nothing. Like SS said the weaving has become very one sided.
But I have to say it is much to Ron's credit that "I Feel Like Playing" is so strong.
While I think his [paintings are not very go0od, I think that whole side has preserved some autonomy in him. It is all his, and maybe boosted his confidence to get the album going.

Ron is like a different man and player when he's playing out of the Rolling Stones oppressive machine.

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soulsurvivor1
I have heard Keith say that he was sorry that Mick T. left the band. I think at times Keith felt upstaged by Mick. Keith played very few solos in the 70s. But let's not forget that Keith is a Rythym/lead player and not a flat out lead player. Mick Taylor is capable of both. Keith's strenghts lie in his song writing abilities; creating great hooks for songs and laying down uncomparable guitar rythym/lead playing that unfortunately has become a lost art. Let's also not forget that Keith was a major herion addict in the 70s and that effects even the likes of Keith. I think that Mick Taylor was a riddle that the Stones tried to harness in the studio and let him run wild live. Mick T. felt upset that many of his studio playing was lost in the mix. I have a bootleg that has a copy of an article by Keith Richards ex guitar builder/tech in the mide 70s. He states that Mick T. became very angry during the mixing for the Its Only Rock N Roll album. The guitar builder states that Mick T. had worked out a very long solo for "Time Waits For No One", at the final mix down Mick & Keith gave the engineer the signal to fade out just as Mick Taylor's lead got going. Mick T. stormed out of the control room. He then announced his departure from the band at the infamous Faces party.

Soulsurvivor

Hadn't heard that one. I have also read that he claimed some of his best playing was edited out of Exile (or rather his wife claimed this). I am usually very "pro-Taylor" here, but I will say this: Mick & Keith served as "editors" for the Stones' recordings, and I think in the way they used his parts they got the best of Taylor's contributions - even if that meant leaving some of Taylor's best playing on the control room floor. That can be frustrating as a musician, but in a band context, the parts should serve the song, not the other way around.

That said, reading between the lines of several of these different anecdotes, I am guessing Keith had a negative reaction to Taylor's role on Goats Head Soup, and may have wanted to put Taylor in his place in the IORR sessions. This obviously led to some bad feelings, and could have been a major contributor to Taylor's deciding to leave when he did, along with other factors.

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soulsurvivor1
Yes I agree it was quite long and it seems that the Stones were tring to meet him halfway. It is a shame that Mick T. isn't with the band any longer, although when Ron Wood first took his place I wasn't too disappointed. Ron will never be Mick T. his playing style is quite different than Mick Taylor's. Ron was an addequate replacement. His work with the faces was stellar. If you have never seen him on the Sounds For Saturday 1971 with the Faces please watch him because he really was quite good at one time. I think alcohol and Keith are responsible for his sometimes non existent role in the Stones. I say no existant because if you Compare his role in the band from 75-78 to the present its like two different things. I have boots of the Stones where Ron barely plays the entire night. At times I thought he forgot how to play! Then, I would hear or see something he did solo and I ask myself; Why doesn't he plat like that with the Stones. Answer; Keith wants to practice thge ancient art of weaving..a good idea but Keith's idea of weaving has Keith doing most of the weaving.Maybe that's why Ron drinks so much ? With the greatest Rock N Roll band but relagated to second bannana..Who knows? The whole thing is weird..I've seen Ron play beautifully with the Stones at times...and other times he sounded dreadful....Just some thoughts....and observations

Soulsurvivor

yes, this sums it up. The confident Ron Wood who led the Faces and played brilliantly is not the Ron Wood we got with the Rolling Stones. This why I always say "weaving, schmeaving". This concept of the two of them locked in together only existed for a few years at most (the Some Girls LP was a high point). Then it was pretty much Keith doing the "weaving" and Ron trying to find a few places to fit in, being drowned out, or giving up playing entirely. I have had the same observations as you. At many concerst (particularly in the 90s) I found myself thinking "this is really weird. What is going on with these guys?"

great thread this folks

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71Tele

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soulsurvivor1
Mick T. felt upset that many of his studio playing was lost in the mix. I have a bootleg that has a copy of an article by Keith Richards ex guitar builder/tech in the mide 70s. He states that Mick T. became very angry during the mixing for the Its Only Rock N Roll album. The guitar builder states that Mick T. had worked out a very long solo for "Time Waits For No One", at the final mix down Mick & Keith gave the engineer the signal to fade out just as Mick Taylor's lead got going. Mick T. stormed out of the control room. He then announced his departure from the band at the infamous Faces party.

Soulsurvivor

Hadn't heard that one. I have also read that he claimed some of his best playing was edited out of Exile (or rather his wife claimed this). I am usually very "pro-Taylor" here, but I will say this: Mick & Keith served as "editors" for the Stones' recordings, and I think in the way they used his parts they got the best of Taylor's contributions - even if that meant leaving some of Taylor's best playing on the control room floor. That can be frustrating as a musician, but in a band context, the parts should serve the song, not the other way around.

That is absolutely correct, Tele! I can relate to that having recorded in Franklin, TN and on one song, a country song, which we had played live a gazillion times, I came to the conclusion that what I played live did not serve the song in a studio. It just didn't work. I suggested pedal steel as I thought that would be best (and classic, of course) but instead they found someone that can play that kind of Fender Telecaster country solo bendy plucky lead guitar playing - and it turned out fantastic. It served the song.

If that thing about TWFNO id true, his solo was much longer or whatever, then it is - I'd like to hear it. But the mix and the LP version (and edit version) are great the way they are. So yeah, the mixing and editing is what serves the song in the end. There's got to be some control on when things stop etc. Pull the reins in so to speak. Just like on Emotional Rescue, there is guitar answering the sax but it's buried deep in the mix - the sax is the main deal.

I don't understand the thing about 100 Years Ago. Is there a quote or video or something? What did Keith say?

I don't understand the thing about 100 Years Ago. Is there a quote or video or something? What did Keith say? <skipstone>

As far as is I can look it up,there's only a musical answer coming from Keith.
Unfortunately, he's not very audible here,if not at all. I wonder why.
Very poor sound quality, headphones required:

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skipstone

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71Tele

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soulsurvivor1
Mick T. felt upset that many of his studio playing was lost in the mix. I have a bootleg that has a copy of an article by Keith Richards ex guitar builder/tech in the mide 70s. He states that Mick T. became very angry during the mixing for the Its Only Rock N Roll album. The guitar builder states that Mick T. had worked out a very long solo for "Time Waits For No One", at the final mix down Mick & Keith gave the engineer the signal to fade out just as Mick Taylor's lead got going. Mick T. stormed out of the control room. He then announced his departure from the band at the infamous Faces party.

Soulsurvivor

Hadn't heard that one. I have also read that he claimed some of his best playing was edited out of Exile (or rather his wife claimed this). I am usually very "pro-Taylor" here, but I will say this: Mick & Keith served as "editors" for the Stones' recordings, and I think in the way they used his parts they got the best of Taylor's contributions - even if that meant leaving some of Taylor's best playing on the control room floor. That can be frustrating as a musician, but in a band context, the parts should serve the song, not the other way around.

That is absolutely correct, Tele! I can relate to that having recorded in Franklin, TN and on one song, a country song, which we had played live a gazillion times, I came to the conclusion that what I played live did not serve the song in a studio. It just didn't work. I suggested pedal steel as I thought that would be best (and classic, of course) but instead they found someone that can play that kind of Fender Telecaster country solo bendy plucky lead guitar playing - and it turned out fantastic. It served the song.

If that thing about TWFNO id true, his solo was much longer or whatever, then it is - I'd like to hear it. But the mix and the LP version (and edit version) are great the way they are. So yeah, the mixing and editing is what serves the song in the end. There's got to be some control on when things stop etc. Pull the reins in so to speak. Just like on Emotional Rescue, there is guitar answering the sax but it's buried deep in the mix - the sax is the main deal.

I don't understand the thing about 100 Years Ago. Is there a quote or video or something? What did Keith say?

Keith said something about musicians in the Stones drew the band in unwanted directions, and used 100 Years Ago as an example. The interview was from 1973, don't remember from where...

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Amsterdamned
I don't understand the thing about 100 Years Ago. Is there a quote or video or something? What did Keith say? <skipstone>

As far as is I can look it up,there's only a musical answer coming from Keith.
Unfortunately, he's not very audible here,if not at all. I wonder why.
Very poor sound quality, headphones required:

He's not very audible, but you can hear him after the break. Not much, though. Then again, it's massive song, and the horns and the clavinet take up a lot of space towards the ending there.

I always look at it like this- Taylor quit, no one wanted him to leave the band. But once he was gone, I'd think Keith started focusing on the negative things about Taylor as a way to accept the loss. Then when he got Ronnie who he gelled with and made some great records with it was even easier to look back on Taylor's style and say it "didn't fit." Even though they continue to play songs from the Taylor era, and as far as I know there are no stories of Keith wanting to fire/replace Taylor during those years because he didn't fit.