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71Tele

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StonesTod

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71Tele

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StonesTod

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71Tele

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StonesTod

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71Tele

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The Sicilian

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71Tele
A maudlin song of cheap sentimentality, just like his overrated "American Pie".

I think your quite alone in that opinion. Why all the bitterness?

I might be alone...As a Stones fan, his Jagger-demonizing in "American Pie" was quite offensive. It was a well-written poppy folk song, but at it's heart it's message was quite reactionary, a sort of blanket rejection of all the music that I loved, including the Beatles and the Stones (about Jagger: "as I watched him on the stage, my hands were clenched in fists of rage" - talk about "bitter"! Why the hate, Don?). Somehow the only "real" music to him "died" - and it was all from the Buddy Holly era. Nothing that came after was worthy, according to our Don.

interesting interpretation - but waaaaaay off the mark, tele.

love the whole album, but especially vincent. about as perfectly a crafted song as i've ever heard.

Not much to "interpret" regarding "American Pie". It was a screed against the 60s, as well as a love letter to the music of the 50s.

i don't interpret it that way. i look at it as the loss of innocence of a musical era...and don't recognize any of the hatred for jagger that you do.

again, a wonderfully crafted song, lyrically and structurally....

You're right about the loss of innocence. Certainly a theme of the song. But you don't recognize the hate? "As I watched him on the stage my hands were clenched in fists of rage. No angel born in hell, could break that Satan's spell". I didn't say it, he did.

it's a LYRIC and it's in keeping with the whole theme and idea of the fact that musical times had changed and the innocence of pop/rock music had died. it's not meant to be taken as an indictment of mick or the stones. i suppose cos he couldn't get up and dance to sgt peppers that he dislikes that album?

The words are the words. He compares Jagger to Satan, and says he is enraged watching him on the stage. This is not rocket science, or some obscure lyric where we have to dry to divulge the meaning. I am only reporting what the lyrics actually say. They are pretty direct. If you want to interpret it differently, fine with me.

-----


Yaaawwwnnn

Anyone excited aboout The Beach Boys SMiLE Sessions - now that is interesting! i await the bite backs

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71Tele

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StonesTod

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71Tele

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StonesTod

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71Tele

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StonesTod

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71Tele

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The Sicilian

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71Tele
A maudlin song of cheap sentimentality, just like his overrated "American Pie".

I think your quite alone in that opinion. Why all the bitterness?

I might be alone...As a Stones fan, his Jagger-demonizing in "American Pie" was quite offensive. It was a well-written poppy folk song, but at it's heart it's message was quite reactionary, a sort of blanket rejection of all the music that I loved, including the Beatles and the Stones (about Jagger: "as I watched him on the stage, my hands were clenched in fists of rage" - talk about "bitter"! Why the hate, Don?). Somehow the only "real" music to him "died" - and it was all from the Buddy Holly era. Nothing that came after was worthy, according to our Don.

interesting interpretation - but waaaaaay off the mark, tele.

love the whole album, but especially vincent. about as perfectly a crafted song as i've ever heard.

Not much to "interpret" regarding "American Pie". It was a screed against the 60s, as well as a love letter to the music of the 50s.

i don't interpret it that way. i look at it as the loss of innocence of a musical era...and don't recognize any of the hatred for jagger that you do.

again, a wonderfully crafted song, lyrically and structurally....

You're right about the loss of innocence. Certainly a theme of the song. But you don't recognize the hate? "As I watched him on the stage my hands were clenched in fists of rage. No angel born in hell, could break that Satan's spell". I didn't say it, he did.

it's a LYRIC and it's in keeping with the whole theme and idea of the fact that musical times had changed and the innocence of pop/rock music had died. it's not meant to be taken as an indictment of mick or the stones. i suppose cos he couldn't get up and dance to sgt peppers that he dislikes that album?

The words are the words. He compares Jagger to Satan, and says he is enraged watching him on the stage. This is not rocket science, or some obscure lyric where we have to dry to divulge the meaning. I am only reporting what the lyrics actually say. They are pretty direct. If you want to interpret it differently, fine with me.

don mclean hates the stones and the beatles and everything else that followed, everybody. cos we know that when writing lyrics, one is to be taken literally. oh, let's remember that mick himself is the devil as he wrote so autobiographically in sftd.

damn it! i was looking to be the last reply on the top 5 posts but Stonestod you have blocked my glory, on another front you cant reason with a fan of Don, just let it fizzle out and die

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Captainchaos
damn it! i was looking to be the last reply on the top 5 posts but Stonestod you have blocked my glory, on another front you cant reason with a fan of Don, just let it fizzle out and die

these are fleeting, temporal achievements at best, anyway, captain - it wasn't going to buy you a promotion to admiralchaos or anything....

i had my cigar primed for action there, should it go back in the box and await another day?

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Captainchaos
i had my cigar primed for action there, should it go back in the box and await another day?

smoke 'em if you got 'em, especially if you got a box of 'em

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StonesTod

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71Tele

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StonesTod

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71Tele

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StonesTod

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71Tele

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StonesTod

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71Tele

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The Sicilian

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71Tele
A maudlin song of cheap sentimentality, just like his overrated "American Pie".

I think your quite alone in that opinion. Why all the bitterness?

I might be alone...As a Stones fan, his Jagger-demonizing in "American Pie" was quite offensive. It was a well-written poppy folk song, but at it's heart it's message was quite reactionary, a sort of blanket rejection of all the music that I loved, including the Beatles and the Stones (about Jagger: "as I watched him on the stage, my hands were clenched in fists of rage" - talk about "bitter"! Why the hate, Don?). Somehow the only "real" music to him "died" - and it was all from the Buddy Holly era. Nothing that came after was worthy, according to our Don.

interesting interpretation - but waaaaaay off the mark, tele.

love the whole album, but especially vincent. about as perfectly a crafted song as i've ever heard.

Not much to "interpret" regarding "American Pie". It was a screed against the 60s, as well as a love letter to the music of the 50s.

i don't interpret it that way. i look at it as the loss of innocence of a musical era...and don't recognize any of the hatred for jagger that you do.

again, a wonderfully crafted song, lyrically and structurally....

You're right about the loss of innocence. Certainly a theme of the song. But you don't recognize the hate? "As I watched him on the stage my hands were clenched in fists of rage. No angel born in hell, could break that Satan's spell". I didn't say it, he did.

it's a LYRIC and it's in keeping with the whole theme and idea of the fact that musical times had changed and the innocence of pop/rock music had died. it's not meant to be taken as an indictment of mick or the stones. i suppose cos he couldn't get up and dance to sgt peppers that he dislikes that album?

The words are the words. He compares Jagger to Satan, and says he is enraged watching him on the stage. This is not rocket science, or some obscure lyric where we have to dry to divulge the meaning. I am only reporting what the lyrics actually say. They are pretty direct. If you want to interpret it differently, fine with me.

don mclean hates the stones and the beatles and everything else that followed, everybody. cos we know that when writing lyrics, one is to be taken literally. oh, let's remember that mick himself is the devil as he wrote so autobiographically in sftd.

Wasn't quite my point. The song was a putdown of certain elements of the 60s music and counterculture. It doesn't mean he literally thinks Jagger was the devil, and I never said he did. Why is this so hard? This was a "message" song - a damn good one, I just don't agree with part of the message, but who cares? Why deny the obvious message of the lyrics? What other possible interpretation is there? Jeez, folks.

5% of rocks songs have good lyrics the other 90% have good music. The other 5% have both.

Boring boring boring. McLean sank into obscurity pretty quickly for a reason.

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71Tele

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StonesTod

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71Tele

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StonesTod

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71Tele

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StonesTod

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71Tele

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StonesTod

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71Tele

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The Sicilian

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71Tele
A maudlin song of cheap sentimentality, just like his overrated "American Pie".

I think your quite alone in that opinion. Why all the bitterness?

I might be alone...As a Stones fan, his Jagger-demonizing in "American Pie" was quite offensive. It was a well-written poppy folk song, but at it's heart it's message was quite reactionary, a sort of blanket rejection of all the music that I loved, including the Beatles and the Stones (about Jagger: "as I watched him on the stage, my hands were clenched in fists of rage" - talk about "bitter"! Why the hate, Don?). Somehow the only "real" music to him "died" - and it was all from the Buddy Holly era. Nothing that came after was worthy, according to our Don.

interesting interpretation - but waaaaaay off the mark, tele.

love the whole album, but especially vincent. about as perfectly a crafted song as i've ever heard.

Not much to "interpret" regarding "American Pie". It was a screed against the 60s, as well as a love letter to the music of the 50s.

i don't interpret it that way. i look at it as the loss of innocence of a musical era...and don't recognize any of the hatred for jagger that you do.

again, a wonderfully crafted song, lyrically and structurally....

You're right about the loss of innocence. Certainly a theme of the song. But you don't recognize the hate? "As I watched him on the stage my hands were clenched in fists of rage. No angel born in hell, could break that Satan's spell". I didn't say it, he did.

it's a LYRIC and it's in keeping with the whole theme and idea of the fact that musical times had changed and the innocence of pop/rock music had died. it's not meant to be taken as an indictment of mick or the stones. i suppose cos he couldn't get up and dance to sgt peppers that he dislikes that album?

The words are the words. He compares Jagger to Satan, and says he is enraged watching him on the stage. This is not rocket science, or some obscure lyric where we have to dry to divulge the meaning. I am only reporting what the lyrics actually say. They are pretty direct. If you want to interpret it differently, fine with me.

don mclean hates the stones and the beatles and everything else that followed, everybody. cos we know that when writing lyrics, one is to be taken literally. oh, let's remember that mick himself is the devil as he wrote so autobiographically in sftd.

Wasn't quite my point. The song was a putdown of certain elements of the 60s music and counterculture. It doesn't mean he literally thinks Jagger was the devil, and I never said he did. Why is this so hard? This was a "message" song - a damn good one, I just don't agree with part of the message, but who cares? Why deny the obvious message of the lyrics? What other possible interpretation is there? Jeez, folks.

i disagree that it was a message song. it was a discussion song about the changing course of popular music - not an indictment of it. sorry you missed that discussion. it really want's that hard at all!

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StonesTod

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71Tele

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StonesTod

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71Tele

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StonesTod

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71Tele

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StonesTod

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71Tele

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StonesTod

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71Tele

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The Sicilian

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71Tele
A maudlin song of cheap sentimentality, just like his overrated "American Pie".

I think your quite alone in that opinion. Why all the bitterness?

I might be alone...As a Stones fan, his Jagger-demonizing in "American Pie" was quite offensive. It was a well-written poppy folk song, but at it's heart it's message was quite reactionary, a sort of blanket rejection of all the music that I loved, including the Beatles and the Stones (about Jagger: "as I watched him on the stage, my hands were clenched in fists of rage" - talk about "bitter"! Why the hate, Don?). Somehow the only "real" music to him "died" - and it was all from the Buddy Holly era. Nothing that came after was worthy, according to our Don.

interesting interpretation - but waaaaaay off the mark, tele.

love the whole album, but especially vincent. about as perfectly a crafted song as i've ever heard.

Not much to "interpret" regarding "American Pie". It was a screed against the 60s, as well as a love letter to the music of the 50s.

i don't interpret it that way. i look at it as the loss of innocence of a musical era...and don't recognize any of the hatred for jagger that you do.

again, a wonderfully crafted song, lyrically and structurally....

You're right about the loss of innocence. Certainly a theme of the song. But you don't recognize the hate? "As I watched him on the stage my hands were clenched in fists of rage. No angel born in hell, could break that Satan's spell". I didn't say it, he did.

it's a LYRIC and it's in keeping with the whole theme and idea of the fact that musical times had changed and the innocence of pop/rock music had died. it's not meant to be taken as an indictment of mick or the stones. i suppose cos he couldn't get up and dance to sgt peppers that he dislikes that album?

The words are the words. He compares Jagger to Satan, and says he is enraged watching him on the stage. This is not rocket science, or some obscure lyric where we have to dry to divulge the meaning. I am only reporting what the lyrics actually say. They are pretty direct. If you want to interpret it differently, fine with me.

don mclean hates the stones and the beatles and everything else that followed, everybody. cos we know that when writing lyrics, one is to be taken literally. oh, let's remember that mick himself is the devil as he wrote so autobiographically in sftd.

Wasn't quite my point. The song was a putdown of certain elements of the 60s music and counterculture. It doesn't mean he literally thinks Jagger was the devil, and I never said he did. Why is this so hard? This was a "message" song - a damn good one, I just don't agree with part of the message, but who cares? Why deny the obvious message of the lyrics? What other possible interpretation is there? Jeez, folks.

i disagree that it was a message song. it was a discussion song about the changing course of popular music - not an indictment of it. sorry you missed that discussion. it really want's that hard at all!

Silly me!

The words are the words. He compares Jagger to Satan, and says he is enraged watching him on the stage. This is not rocket science, or some obscure lyric where we have to dry to divulge the meaning. I am only reporting what the lyrics actually say. They are pretty direct. If you want to interpret it differently, fine with me.

Except for the fact that the never actually SAY Jagger... At one point he seems to imply Jagger (Jack Flash reference) but in the same line as Jack Flash appears he also makes reference to a nursery rhyme where Jack jumps over a candle stick. I've never heard any rumors about Jagger having burnt his butt on a candle so possibly there are more references in the line to the nursery rhyme and an innocence lost theme than to Jagger?

Read what the next stanza actually says and, although it's not rocket science (which would be hard for most of us to understand), it's still not clear or easy to understand what exactly he's saying... "Oh, and as I watched him on the stage My hands were clenched in fists of rage." Doesn't actually say who "him" is. The nursery rhyme Jack WAS mentioned in the lyrics previous stanza as were Jack Flash and the devil. Three choices for who "him" is, one of whom could be inferred to be (but not actually said) Jagger.

Curious as to what Don McLean had to say on the meaning of the lyrics, I did a search and found this blurb supposedly written by him:

As you can imagine, over the years I have been asked many times to discuss and explain my song "American Pie." I have never discussed the lyrics, but have admitted to the Holly reference in the opening stanzas. I dedicated the album American Pie to Buddy Holly as well in order to connect the entire statement to Holly in hopes of bringing about an interest in him, which subsequently did occur.

This brings me to my point. Casey Kasem never spoke to me and none of the references he confirms my making were made by me. You will find many "interpretations" of my lyrics but none of them by me. Isn't this fun?

Sorry to leave you all on your own like this but long ago I realized that songwriters should make their statements and move on, maintaining a dignified silence. --Don McLean, Castine, Maine

Link to page: [www.straightdope.com]

I won't bother pasting what I found at Don McLean's as it's not actually attributed to him. If you'd like to read: [www.don-mclean.com]


Note:
I love both songs (Vincent & American Pie)
I DO think that some of the lyrics of American Pie are most likely referencing Jagger
I think it's great that Don McLean isn't explaining... Makes for fun times debating and wasting time at work!

Peace,
Mr DJA

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mr_dja
The words are the words. He compares Jagger to Satan, and says he is enraged watching him on the stage. This is not rocket science, or some obscure lyric where we have to dry to divulge the meaning. I am only reporting what the lyrics actually say. They are pretty direct. If you want to interpret it differently, fine with me.

Except for the fact that the never actually SAY Jagger... At one point he seems to imply Jagger (Jack Flash reference) but in the same line as Jack Flash appears he also makes reference to a nursery rhyme where Jack jumps over a candle stick. I've never heard any rumors about Jagger having burnt his butt on a candle so possibly there are more references in the line to the nursery rhyme and an innocence lost theme than to Jagger?

Read what the next stanza actually says and, although it's not rocket science (which would be hard for most of us to understand), it's still not clear or easy to understand what exactly he's saying... "Oh, and as I watched him on the stage My hands were clenched in fists of rage." Doesn't actually say who "him" is. The nursery rhyme Jack WAS mentioned in the lyrics previous stanza as were Jack Flash and the devil. Three choices for who "him" is, one of whom could be inferred to be (but not actually said) Jagger.

Curious as to what Don McLean had to say on the meaning of the lyrics, I did a search and found this blurb supposedly written by him:

As you can imagine, over the years I have been asked many times to discuss and explain my song "American Pie." I have never discussed the lyrics, but have admitted to the Holly reference in the opening stanzas. I dedicated the album American Pie to Buddy Holly as well in order to connect the entire statement to Holly in hopes of bringing about an interest in him, which subsequently did occur.

This brings me to my point. Casey Kasem never spoke to me and none of the references he confirms my making were made by me. You will find many "interpretations" of my lyrics but none of them by me. Isn't this fun?

Sorry to leave you all on your own like this but long ago I realized that songwriters should make their statements and move on, maintaining a dignified silence. --Don McLean, Castine, Maine

Link to page: [www.straightdope.com]

I won't bother pasting what I found at Don McLean's as it's not actually attributed to him. If you'd like to read: [www.don-mclean.com]


Note:
I love both songs (Vincent & American Pie)
I DO think that some of the lyrics of American Pie are most likely referencing Jagger
I think it's great that Don McLean isn't explaining... Makes for fun times debating and wasting time at work!

Peace,
Mr DJA

Of course he never says "Jagger". The lyrics refer to him poetically as "Jack Flash". Again, not hard to guess who he is talking about. Your point about him not explaining is spot-on. The best lyrics evoke and let us interpret rather than spell everything out literally. This is art not journalism. But again, I think the point of view of the narrator (if not McLean personally) toward things like the Stones and the Beatles - "Lennon read a book of Marx" - is clearly critical. This isn't very obscure, like some Dylan lyrics. McLean obviously had a point of view in the song. I think it is ironic that it was a big hit in the very era he was criticizing and that many people didn't get the message because of the catchy singalong chorus. That is all that I am saying.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-03-29 21:10 by 71Tele.

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mr_dja

Sorry to leave you all on your own like this but long ago I realized that songwriters should make their statements and move on, maintaining a dignified silence. --Don McLean, Castine, Maine

Link to page: [www.straightdope.com]

I won't bother pasting what I found at Don McLean's as it's not actually attributed to him. If you'd like to read: [www.don-mclean.com]


Note:
I love both songs (Vincent & American Pie)
I DO think that some of the lyrics of American Pie are most likely referencing Jagger
I think it's great that Don McLean isn't explaining... Makes for fun times debating and wasting time at work!

Peace,
Mr DJA

imo, there is nothing dignified about his "dignified silence", sounds more like a wimpy cop out.

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MKjan

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mr_dja

Sorry to leave you all on your own like this but long ago I realized that songwriters should make their statements and move on, maintaining a dignified silence. --Don McLean, Castine, Maine

Link to page: [www.straightdope.com]

I won't bother pasting what I found at Don McLean's as it's not actually attributed to him. If you'd like to read: [www.don-mclean.com]


Note:
I love both songs (Vincent & American Pie)
I DO think that some of the lyrics of American Pie are most likely referencing Jagger
I think it's great that Don McLean isn't explaining... Makes for fun times debating and wasting time at work!

Peace,
Mr DJA

imo, there is nothing dignified about his "dignified silence", sounds more like a wimpy cop out.

I actually respect him for resisting explaining the song to people. Same as Dylan has done. Elvis Costello has said "if I wanted to explain the song I would have written a different song". People like things explained to them literally. A song or a poem should work on its own. People can provide their own interpretations and experience the work the way that works for them.

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71Tele

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mr_dja
The words are the words. He compares Jagger to Satan, and says he is enraged watching him on the stage. This is not rocket science, or some obscure lyric where we have to dry to divulge the meaning. I am only reporting what the lyrics actually say. They are pretty direct. If you want to interpret it differently, fine with me.

Except for the fact that the never actually SAY Jagger... At one point he seems to imply Jagger (Jack Flash reference) but in the same line as Jack Flash appears he also makes reference to a nursery rhyme where Jack jumps over a candle stick. I've never heard any rumors about Jagger having burnt his butt on a candle so possibly there are more references in the line to the nursery rhyme and an innocence lost theme than to Jagger?

Read what the next stanza actually says and, although it's not rocket science (which would be hard for most of us to understand), it's still not clear or easy to understand what exactly he's saying... "Oh, and as I watched him on the stage My hands were clenched in fists of rage." Doesn't actually say who "him" is. The nursery rhyme Jack WAS mentioned in the lyrics previous stanza as were Jack Flash and the devil. Three choices for who "him" is, one of whom could be inferred to be (but not actually said) Jagger.

Curious as to what Don McLean had to say on the meaning of the lyrics, I did a search and found this blurb supposedly written by him:

As you can imagine, over the years I have been asked many times to discuss and explain my song "American Pie." I have never discussed the lyrics, but have admitted to the Holly reference in the opening stanzas. I dedicated the album American Pie to Buddy Holly as well in order to connect the entire statement to Holly in hopes of bringing about an interest in him, which subsequently did occur.

This brings me to my point. Casey Kasem never spoke to me and none of the references he confirms my making were made by me. You will find many "interpretations" of my lyrics but none of them by me. Isn't this fun?

Sorry to leave you all on your own like this but long ago I realized that songwriters should make their statements and move on, maintaining a dignified silence. --Don McLean, Castine, Maine

Link to page: [www.straightdope.com]

I won't bother pasting what I found at Don McLean's as it's not actually attributed to him. If you'd like to read: [www.don-mclean.com]


Note:
I love both songs (Vincent & American Pie)
I DO think that some of the lyrics of American Pie are most likely referencing Jagger
I think it's great that Don McLean isn't explaining... Makes for fun times debating and wasting time at work!

Peace,
Mr DJA

Of course he never says "Jagger". The lyrics refer to him poetically as "Jack Flash". Again, not hard to guess who he is talking about. Your point about him not explaining is spot-on. The best lyrics evoke and let us interpret rather than spell everything out literally. This is art not journalism. But again, I think the point of view of the narrator (if not McLean personally) toward things like the Stones and the Beatles - "Lennon read a book of Marx" - is clearly critical. This isn't very obscure, like some Dylan lyrics. McLean obviously had a point of view in the song. I think it is ironic that it was a big hit in the very era he was criticizing and that many people didn't get the message because of the catchy singalong chorus. That is all that I am saying.

there's a difference between Don McLean the person having a point of view and Don McLean the songwriter having written a song with a point of view. as you say, that's art. i could understand disagreeing with the song's point of view, if you will. but, he's not writing an essay here. and, again, I think the song is lamenting a loss of innocence; that's very different than a song criticizing individuals.

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71Tele

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MKjan

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mr_dja

Sorry to leave you all on your own like this but long ago I realized that songwriters should make their statements and move on, maintaining a dignified silence. --Don McLean, Castine, Maine

Link to page: [www.straightdope.com]

I won't bother pasting what I found at Don McLean's as it's not actually attributed to him. If you'd like to read: [www.don-mclean.com]


Note:
I love both songs (Vincent & American Pie)
I DO think that some of the lyrics of American Pie are most likely referencing Jagger
I think it's great that Don McLean isn't explaining... Makes for fun times debating and wasting time at work!

Peace,
Mr DJA

imo, there is nothing dignified about his "dignified silence", sounds more like a wimpy cop out.

I actually respect him for resisting explaining the song to people. Same as Dylan has done. Elvis Costello has said "if I wanted to explain the song I would have written a different song". People like things explained to them literally. A song or a poem should work on its own. People can provide their own interpretations and experience the work the way that works for them.

I basically agree with your take 71Tele, but here I think its a cheap shot. I am just one of those who think the Stones were unfairly persecuted for things they
didn't cause.

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MKjan

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mr_dja

Sorry to leave you all on your own like this but long ago I realized that songwriters should make their statements and move on, maintaining a dignified silence. --Don McLean, Castine, Maine

Link to page: [www.straightdope.com]

I won't bother pasting what I found at Don McLean's as it's not actually attributed to him. If you'd like to read: [www.don-mclean.com]


Note:
I love both songs (Vincent & American Pie)
I DO think that some of the lyrics of American Pie are most likely referencing Jagger
I think it's great that Don McLean isn't explaining... Makes for fun times debating and wasting time at work!

Peace,
Mr DJA

imo, there is nothing dignified about his "dignified silence", sounds more like a wimpy cop out.

LOL! What? Seriously? A song can't speak for itself? When Bob Dylan doesn't explain his lyrics, he's copping out?

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StonesTod

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MKjan

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mr_dja

Sorry to leave you all on your own like this but long ago I realized that songwriters should make their statements and move on, maintaining a dignified silence. --Don McLean, Castine, Maine

Link to page: [www.straightdope.com]

I won't bother pasting what I found at Don McLean's as it's not actually attributed to him. If you'd like to read: [www.don-mclean.com]


Note:
I love both songs (Vincent & American Pie)
I DO think that some of the lyrics of American Pie are most likely referencing Jagger
I think it's great that Don McLean isn't explaining... Makes for fun times debating and wasting time at work!

Peace,
Mr DJA

imo, there is nothing dignified about his "dignified silence", sounds more like a wimpy cop out.

LOL! What? Seriously? A song can't speak for itself? When Bob Dylan doesn't explain his lyrics, he's copping out?

A song can speak for itself, and a songwriter can speak for it as well.

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MKjan

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StonesTod

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MKjan

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mr_dja

Sorry to leave you all on your own like this but long ago I realized that songwriters should make their statements and move on, maintaining a dignified silence. --Don McLean, Castine, Maine

Link to page: [www.straightdope.com]

I won't bother pasting what I found at Don McLean's as it's not actually attributed to him. If you'd like to read: [www.don-mclean.com]


Note:
I love both songs (Vincent & American Pie)
I DO think that some of the lyrics of American Pie are most likely referencing Jagger
I think it's great that Don McLean isn't explaining... Makes for fun times debating and wasting time at work!

Peace,
Mr DJA

imo, there is nothing dignified about his "dignified silence", sounds more like a wimpy cop out.

LOL! What? Seriously? A song can't speak for itself? When Bob Dylan doesn't explain his lyrics, he's copping out?

A song can speak for itself, and a songwriter can speak for it as well.

well, screw dylan for refusing to explain his songs, in that case! the wimp!

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StonesTod

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MKjan

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StonesTod

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MKjan

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mr_dja

Sorry to leave you all on your own like this but long ago I realized that songwriters should make their statements and move on, maintaining a dignified silence. --Don McLean, Castine, Maine

Link to page: [www.straightdope.com]

I won't bother pasting what I found at Don McLean's as it's not actually attributed to him. If you'd like to read: [www.don-mclean.com]


Note:
I love both songs (Vincent & American Pie)
I DO think that some of the lyrics of American Pie are most likely referencing Jagger
I think it's great that Don McLean isn't explaining... Makes for fun times debating and wasting time at work!

Peace,
Mr DJA

imo, there is nothing dignified about his "dignified silence", sounds more like a wimpy cop out.

LOL! What? Seriously? A song can't speak for itself? When Bob Dylan doesn't explain his lyrics, he's copping out?

A song can speak for itself, and a songwriter can speak for it as well.

well, screw dylan for refusing to explain his songs, in that case! the wimp!

No, I don't think anyone has to explain their songs. I am only talking about McLeans song here, a cheap shot for sure, and would enjoy hearing more about it.
In the case of Dylan, who I am a big fan of, would love to know more about the
heavy lyric borrowing in recent years.

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MKjan

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StonesTod

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MKjan

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StonesTod

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MKjan

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mr_dja

Sorry to leave you all on your own like this but long ago I realized that songwriters should make their statements and move on, maintaining a dignified silence. --Don McLean, Castine, Maine

Link to page: [www.straightdope.com]

I won't bother pasting what I found at Don McLean's as it's not actually attributed to him. If you'd like to read: [www.don-mclean.com]


Note:
I love both songs (Vincent & American Pie)
I DO think that some of the lyrics of American Pie are most likely referencing Jagger
I think it's great that Don McLean isn't explaining... Makes for fun times debating and wasting time at work!

Peace,
Mr DJA

imo, there is nothing dignified about his "dignified silence", sounds more like a wimpy cop out.

LOL! What? Seriously? A song can't speak for itself? When Bob Dylan doesn't explain his lyrics, he's copping out?

A song can speak for itself, and a songwriter can speak for it as well.

well, screw dylan for refusing to explain his songs, in that case! the wimp!

No, I don't think anyone has to explain their songs. I am only talking about McLeans song here, a cheap shot for sure, and would enjoy hearing more about it.
In the case of Dylan, who I am a big fan of, would love to know more about the
heavy lyric borrowing in recent years.

how is it a cheap shot? the guy writes a song about the loss of innocence in popular music, cites a couple of well-noted, watershed events (sgt peppers, altamont) that were examples of that loss and it's a cheap shot somehow? that makes no sense to me.

I guess my take would be different if Mick wasn't trying so hard to be Satanic during that era. They played the Devil card pretty well from late 1967 through Altamont. It doesn't matter whether McLean really was upset with that fact or was just playing a role as a songwriter. Jagger was a Satanic figure back then as a lyricist and a performer. I don't see why Stones fans should be upset about McLean noting that in a song whether he found it cool, shameful, or was indifferent. Whether the song is any good or not (or any song, for that matter) is purely subjective.

Personally, I like "Vincent" a lot. It works as a song and a melody. I don't know much about McLean and don't really care whether he was sincere or not in writing this or "American Pie." When I was a kid, "American Pie" was fun to catch all the pop culture references or argue their interpretation with friends. These days I think of it when my own kids play Weird Al's parody of it. I also have some hideous memory of once hearing a Madonna cover version I think. Best not to inquire about such things.

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MKjan

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71Tele

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MKjan

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mr_dja

Sorry to leave you all on your own like this but long ago I realized that songwriters should make their statements and move on, maintaining a dignified silence. --Don McLean, Castine, Maine

Link to page: [www.straightdope.com]

I won't bother pasting what I found at Don McLean's as it's not actually attributed to him. If you'd like to read: [www.don-mclean.com]


Note:
I love both songs (Vincent & American Pie)
I DO think that some of the lyrics of American Pie are most likely referencing Jagger
I think it's great that Don McLean isn't explaining... Makes for fun times debating and wasting time at work!

Peace,
Mr DJA

imo, there is nothing dignified about his "dignified silence", sounds more like a wimpy cop out.

I actually respect him for resisting explaining the song to people. Same as Dylan has done. Elvis Costello has said "if I wanted to explain the song I would have written a different song". People like things explained to them literally. A song or a poem should work on its own. People can provide their own interpretations and experience the work the way that works for them.

I basically agree with your take 71Tele, but here I think its a cheap shot. I am just one of those who think the Stones were unfairly persecuted for things they
didn't cause.

You mean a cheap shot by McLean? That was my original point completely.

The "Lennon read a book on Marx" line came up here. I thought he was deliberately playing with multiple readings as a songwriter. Since some of the song deals in heavier references to Communism and suicide, you could interpret the line as "Lenin read a book on Marx" and you could also look to The Beatles' two movies with Dick Lester which were very Goonish and Marxian (as in The Marx Bros.). Some of Lennon's ramblings in IN HIS OWN WRITE have a definite satirical edge not too far removed from S. J. Perelman's (a longtime Marx Bros. writer) books and essays and finally if he did indeed mean only John Lennon and Karl Marx - even if McLean personally disapproves of Karl Marx - by the time of "Imagine" there was little disguising the fact that Lennon had at least a philosophical interest in Marxism as a solution to society's ills.

Bottom line is he called a spade a spade. Whether he was looking down his nose in disgust truthfully or only as a character for the song isn't really relevant. There's truth in what he says, why care about something that is honest? Opinion on its merits or lackthereof aren't really the issue. Let him be a reactionary thinking the sixties were awful if that is indeed the case, I think StonesTod's interpretation that every example cited is more about the loss of innocence is equally valid. Ultimately, I wouldn't let a reactionary interpretation spoil the song. The lyrics are clever even if it does go on a bit.

Not that I would know anything about that...

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71Tele

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MKjan

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71Tele

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MKjan

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mr_dja

Sorry to leave you all on your own like this but long ago I realized that songwriters should make their statements and move on, maintaining a dignified silence. --Don McLean, Castine, Maine

Link to page: [www.straightdope.com]

I won't bother pasting what I found at Don McLean's as it's not actually attributed to him. If you'd like to read: [www.don-mclean.com]


Note:
I love both songs (Vincent & American Pie)
I DO think that some of the lyrics of American Pie are most likely referencing Jagger
I think it's great that Don McLean isn't explaining... Makes for fun times debating and wasting time at work!

Peace,
Mr DJA

imo, there is nothing dignified about his "dignified silence", sounds more like a wimpy cop out.

I actually respect him for resisting explaining the song to people. Same as Dylan has done. Elvis Costello has said "if I wanted to explain the song I would have written a different song". People like things explained to them literally. A song or a poem should work on its own. People can provide their own interpretations and experience the work the way that works for them.

I basically agree with your take 71Tele, but here I think its a cheap shot. I am just one of those who think the Stones were unfairly persecuted for things they
didn't cause.

You mean a cheap shot by McLean? That was my original point completely.

yes, a cheap shot by McLean, I agree with your point 71Tele.

I think he can certainly make it, I welcome all kinds of freedom but it goes both ways. I'd just like to hear more from him about the song.
The Stones were many things to many people, adopted by many different causes and groups throughout the 60's and early 70's. It was easy for some to blame them for things they sang about, as though they are responsible for all the ills of the world. So we got persecution and a cheap shot in this song imo.

this is still live?!?!?
the cigar is out, icannatakeanymore,Itell'sya...

-------------------
Keep On Rolling

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Rolling Hansie

Good one Hansie><

"It's just some friends of mine and they're busting down the door"