Is it true that....Bill got mad and would leave because Keith never showed up on time when they were recording Exile..and that's why Bill isn't on a lot of it.

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-05-13 23:49 by bv.

Don't know if he got mad - but during Exile he wasn't that present - I guess he didn't like the drugs. And he was annoyed with Keith's problems and behaviour.

He said he played on more songs than the credits say, so I doubt this is true.

Bill also lived kind of far from Keith and didn't
like just sitting around until Keith decided to play.

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DandelionPowderman
He said he played on more songs than the credits say, so I doubt this is true.

the credits have a way of being ..inconvenient ...during that album..

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DandelionPowderman
He said he played on more songs than the credits say, so I doubt this is true.

He might have played on more songs, but some of his parts were later wiped and not used. Thus, Bill's claim that he played on more songs and our own ears telling us he didn't. If you notice the credits on the reissue give him a credit on all the songs, but also credit Taylor, Bill Plummer, etc.

bill played bass on most of the exile trax. sometimes it was wyman, even.

Bill's greatest strength is as a live player. He has the song mapped in his head and can steer the guitarists from section to section. I recall reading that Keith was turned off by the short scale basses and felt a better sound was available with a full scale Fender P Bass. This was a common misconception at the time but it stuck in many minds. Today we realize the value of the tone of a Mustang or other smaller basses but for a good while they were not so cool. Of course many players in the British invasion played smaller basses, McCartney, Jack Bruce and Ronnie Lane for example still I think this is the root of the dispute. Switching around from guitar was not unusual for the Brits... John Lennon plays bass on Hey Jude, if you listen to what he plays it's hysterical... in a great way....

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DoomandGloom
Bill's greatest strength is as a live player. He has the song mapped in his head and can steer the guitarists from section to section. I recall reading that Keith was turned off by the short scale basses and felt a better sound was available with a full scale Fender P Bass. This was a common misconception at the time but it stuck in many minds. Today we realize the value of the tone of a Mustang or other smaller basses but for a good while they were not so cool. Of course many players in the British invasion played smaller basses, McCartney, Jack Bruce and Ronnie Lane for example still I think this is the root of the dispute. Switching around from guitar was not unusual for the Brits... John Lennon plays bass on Hey Jude, if you listen to what he plays it's hysterical... in a great way....

No, Lennon plays 6-string bass on Let It Be and Long And Winding Road. Paul overdubbed bass on Hey Jude. And in the promo film for Hey Jude, it was actually George on bass.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-05-14 07:09 by 71Tele.

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71Tele

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DandelionPowderman
He said he played on more songs than the credits say, so I doubt this is true.

He might have played on more songs, but some of his parts were later wiped and not used. Thus, Bill's claim that he played on more songs and our own ears telling us he didn't. If you notice the credits on the reissue give him a credit on all the songs, but also credit Taylor, Bill Plummer, etc.

What do mean he didn't. He did play on ADTL. There might be others, too.

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71Tele

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DoomandGloom
Bill's greatest strength is as a live player. He has the song mapped in his head and can steer the guitarists from section to section. I recall reading that Keith was turned off by the short scale basses and felt a better sound was available with a full scale Fender P Bass. This was a common misconception at the time but it stuck in many minds. Today we realize the value of the tone of a Mustang or other smaller basses but for a good while they were not so cool. Of course many players in the British invasion played smaller basses, McCartney, Jack Bruce and Ronnie Lane for example still I think this is the root of the dispute. Switching around from guitar was not unusual for the Brits... John Lennon plays bass on Hey Jude, if you listen to what he plays it's hysterical... in a great way....

No, Lennon plays 6-string bass on Let It Be and Long And Winding Road. Paul overdubbed bass on Hey Jude. And in the promo film for Hey Jude, it was actually George on bass.

I stand corrected 71 Tele. I mixed the facts up. I'm not sure now which Lennon bass part is the hysterical one but there's one version perhaps of Let It Be that's very untraditional...

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DandelionPowderman

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71Tele

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DandelionPowderman
He said he played on more songs than the credits say, so I doubt this is true.

He might have played on more songs, but some of his parts were later wiped and not used. Thus, Bill's claim that he played on more songs and our own ears telling us he didn't. If you notice the credits on the reissue give him a credit on all the songs, but also credit Taylor, Bill Plummer, etc.

What do mean he didn't. He did play on ADTL. There might be others, too.

Stones will use more than one bass player on their recordings and ask the engineers to eq them to sound alike. I've never listened to Exile in that manner and would likely not find the fixes anyhow. I do hear plenty of edits on Exile as a whole. There's one song where there's a generation loss in the drums as they used a copy of a verse in another part of the tune. Not much different than what you "kids" call looping. My Exile anniversary was stolen from my car along with my bootleg Brussels, the edits are not as obvious on my Greg Calbi version.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-05-14 08:35 by DoomandGloom.

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DoomandGloom

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DandelionPowderman

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71Tele

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DandelionPowderman
He said he played on more songs than the credits say, so I doubt this is true.

He might have played on more songs, but some of his parts were later wiped and not used. Thus, Bill's claim that he played on more songs and our own ears telling us he didn't. If you notice the credits on the reissue give him a credit on all the songs, but also credit Taylor, Bill Plummer, etc.

What do mean he didn't. He did play on ADTL. There might be others, too.

Stones will use more than one bass player on their recordings and ask the engineers to eq them to sound alike. I've never listened to Exile in that manner and would likely not find the fixes anyhow. I do hear plenty of edits on Exile as a whole. There's one song where there's a generation loss in the drums as they used a copy of a verse in another part of the tune. Not much different than what you "kids" call looping. My Exile anniversary was stolen from my car along with my bootleg Brussels, the edits are not as obvious on my Greg Calbi version.

In some cases there are both upright bass and electric bass on the same track on Exile.

Both Wyman and Jagger have protested against the 'romantic' picture of Nellcote sessions, both from strictly professional point of view. The circumstances were a... hmmm.. chaotic for making a record... So I also recall Wyman saying that he missed some sessions, tired waiting for Keith to turn up, not knowing if he will turn up at all, and he also lived rather far (hours by car) from Nellcote. He, as he has said, refused to live "according to Keith's junkie time".

But I do also recall Wyman once saying that they they decided to do the record in Keith's house, to make sure the guy is there (they have had bad experiences of that in the last STICKY FINGERS sessions)... In some cases, that didn't help...

But funny thing is that Charlie, not probably the biggest hell-raiser in party zone, seemed to have enjoyed those free-going sessions. He was living with Keith and Anita...

But a good record they did I think. Jagger commented something to the effect that it was a miracle they were able to come up with anything...

- Doxa

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DoomandGloom
I stand corrected 71 Tele. I mixed the facts up. I'm not sure now which Lennon bass part is the hysterical one but there's one version perhaps of Let It Be that's very untraditional...

long and winding road from what i recall although i haven't listened to it in years.

Charlie, not probably the biggest hell-raiser in party zone, seemed to have enjoyed those free-going sessions. He was living with Keith and Anita...

...but but Doxa in the start wasn't Charlie driving something like 6 hrs each day to get ta Nellcote



ROCKMAN

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DoomandGloom

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DandelionPowderman

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71Tele

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DandelionPowderman
He said he played on more songs than the credits say, so I doubt this is true.

He might have played on more songs, but some of his parts were later wiped and not used. Thus, Bill's claim that he played on more songs and our own ears telling us he didn't. If you notice the credits on the reissue give him a credit on all the songs, but also credit Taylor, Bill Plummer, etc.

What do mean he didn't. He did play on ADTL. There might be others, too.

Stones will use more than one bass player on their recordings and ask the engineers to eq them to sound alike. I've never listened to Exile in that manner and would likely not find the fixes anyhow. I do hear plenty of edits on Exile as a whole. There's one song where there's a generation loss in the drums as they used a copy of a verse in another part of the tune. Not much different than what you "kids" call looping. My Exile anniversary was stolen from my car along with my bootleg Brussels, the edits are not as obvious on my Greg Calbi version.

At least on TD, you can hear that when the drums come in after the 'you got to roll me' section that the drummer changes from Watts to Miller, and the mix and sound quality changes.

As far as my ears can tell, and with comparing the version of the Nicky Hopkins tape -there's no double bass on All Down The Line, and the electric bass is played by Wyman.

Mathijs

I always wondered how much of the record was REALLY done in Nellcote

That's one of my "Holy Grail" bootlegs that doesn't exist (but maybe could exist somewhere on a tape reel?) -- I'd looooove to hear the "rough" Exile album, hear exactly what they had, when they packed the tapes up fom Nelcotte and got to LA. At some point they would have to have made ROUGH mixes and copies of everything, because how else would Mick Jagger have been able to write the lyrics for the tons of unfinished instrumentals they had?

I have a suspicion or theory that some of those Nicky Hopkins tapes may be just that -- that they are the post Nelcotte, pre-Sunset Sound versions of the tracks. And the Keith vocal on "Soul Survivor" -- anyone who's ever been in a recording studio knows how EASY it would be for Keith to put down the bass after finishing overdubbing the bass part, have the engineer cue up a new track, walk over to a waiting mic booth and cut a quick vocal of unfinished garbled lyrics....this could be done in minutes. It makes so much sense that those two would be done at the same time, when Mick wasn't around.

Rough mixes were often made at the end of a large batch of sessions, when transferring operations from one studio to another -- in those days, that was the standard procedure and the time to do it. It seems not only possible but logical to me, that as a true insider and trusted session musician, Nicky Hopkins could easily end up with a rough tape of some of the tracks that he played on, instrumental versions, raw versions, right as they were packing up shop and leaving Nelcotte. If Hopkins asked Mick or Keith for a copy of the stuff he'd played on to take with him, as he was leaving France, and not planning to join them in L.A, it would make perfect sense. It's not the same thing like they'd be giving it to the pizza delivery guy or some random person on the street. They would have trusted him completely.

Plus, at that exact moment in time there was "Jamming With Edward" in the picture somewhere, being readied for release in early '72. No question in my mind that Nicky was in the "inner circle" in the studio at that point. That's why I tend to think those Nicky tracks may be the real-deal Nelcotte mixes.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-05-14 17:43 by Turning To Gold.

Keep in mind some of the tracks were recorded to varying degrees of completion in England before they left for France.

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Rockman
Charlie, not probably the biggest hell-raiser in party zone, seemed to have enjoyed those free-going sessions. He was living with Keith and Anita...

...but but Doxa in the start wasn't Charlie driving something like 6 hrs each day to get ta Nellcote

I think that's right. Charlie stayed in Aix-le-Provence, which before the autoroute existed was a major trek, while Bill was in Grasse, which is only about 50km from Nellcote.

didn't Bill buy a house in Vence? was it the one he stayed in during the recording?

and why did Charlie initially rent a place so far away..I reckon he liked it..

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terraplane

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DoomandGloom
I stand corrected 71 Tele. I mixed the facts up. I'm not sure now which Lennon bass part is the hysterical one but there's one version perhaps of Let It Be that's very untraditional...

long and winding road from what i recall although i haven't listened to it in years.

That's the one...and the bum notes were magically corrected on "Let It Be, Naked".!

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71Tele

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terraplane

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DoomandGloom
I stand corrected 71 Tele. I mixed the facts up. I'm not sure now which Lennon bass part is the hysterical one but there's one version perhaps of Let It Be that's very untraditional...

long and winding road from what i recall although i haven't listened to it in years.

That's the one...and the bum notes were magically corrected on "Let It Be, Naked".!

I hate "Naked"..

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duke richardson
didn't Bill buy a house in Vence? was it the one he stayed in during the recording?

and why did Charlie initially rent a place so far away..I reckon he liked it..

Wasn't there a story about Bill complaining that Keith wanted to start charging them rent for staying at Nellcote? Seem to remember reading that somewhere!

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hot stuff
Bill also lived kind of far from Keith and didn't
like just sitting around until Keith decided to play.

That's pretty much it. Bill likes to record during somewhat normal hours. While Keith idea of working was to show up at 10PM-11PM for recording sessions.` And how could any session begin without Keith? Haha...They did on Jamming with Edward with Ry Cooder replacing Keith.

Wikipedia<>>>>
The album is a series of loose jams the band performed while waiting for Keith Richards to show up to the studio. Jamming With Edward! is an album recorded by three members (Mick Jagger, Charlie Watts, and Bill Wyman) of The Rolling Stones with Nicky Hopkins and Ry Cooder at London's Olympic Studio during the Let It Bleed sessions of 1969 and released on Rolling Stones Records in 1972.

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71Tele

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DandelionPowderman
He said he played on more songs than the credits say, so I doubt this is true.

He might have played on more songs, but some of his parts were later wiped and not used. Thus, Bill's claim that he played on more songs and our own ears telling us he didn't. If you notice the credits on the reissue give him a credit on all the songs, but also credit Taylor, Bill Plummer, etc.

The credits on the reissue are a joke, to put it mildly. They have nothing to do with reality. Four basses on one song seems not very real to me.

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kleermaker

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71Tele

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DandelionPowderman
He said he played on more songs than the credits say, so I doubt this is true.

He might have played on more songs, but some of his parts were later wiped and not used. Thus, Bill's claim that he played on more songs and our own ears telling us he didn't. If you notice the credits on the reissue give him a credit on all the songs, but also credit Taylor, Bill Plummer, etc.

The credits on the reissue are a joke, to put it mildly. They have nothing to do with reality. Four basses on one song seems not very real to me.

its true..they dropped the ball on the credits..

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Turning To Gold
That's one of my "Holy Grail" bootlegs that doesn't exist (but maybe could exist somewhere on a tape reel?) -- I'd looooove to hear the "rough" Exile album, hear exactly what they had, when they packed the tapes up fom Nelcotte and got to LA. At some point they would have to have made ROUGH mixes and copies of everything, because how else would Mick Jagger have been able to write the lyrics for the tons of unfinished instrumentals they had?

I have a suspicion or theory that some of those Nicky Hopkins tapes may be just that -- that they are the post Nelcotte, pre-Sunset Sound versions of the tracks. And the Keith vocal on "Soul Survivor" -- anyone who's ever been in a recording studio knows how EASY it would be for Keith to put down the bass after finishing overdubbing the bass part, have the engineer cue up a new track, walk over to a waiting mic booth and cut a quick vocal of unfinished garbled lyrics....this could be done in minutes. It makes so much sense that those two would be done at the same time, when Mick wasn't around.

Rough mixes were often made at the end of a large batch of sessions, when transferring operations from one studio to another -- in those days, that was the standard procedure and the time to do it. It seems not only possible but logical to me, that as a true insider and trusted session musician, Nicky Hopkins could easily end up with a rough tape of some of the tracks that he played on, instrumental versions, raw versions, right as they were packing up shop and leaving Nelcotte. If Hopkins asked Mick or Keith for a copy of the stuff he'd played on to take with him, as he was leaving France, and not planning to join them in L.A, it would make perfect sense. It's not the same thing like they'd be giving it to the pizza delivery guy or some random person on the street. They would have trusted him completely.

Plus, at that exact moment in time there was "Jamming With Edward" in the picture somewhere, being readied for release in early '72. No question in my mind that Nicky was in the "inner circle" in the studio at that point. That's why I tend to think those Nicky tracks may be the real-deal Nelcotte mixes.

My guess is Keith ran his cassette deck or 1/4 track off the mixer and they analyzed stuff together. I imagine at some point Nicky hooked in as well and grabbed his best stuff. Still I doubt a rough version of the album existed, there are many outtakes plus it appears from accounts they were far from finished. In 1972 big bands were terrified their roughs would get bootlegged. The mafia on Long Island made upwards to a million bucks by issuing exact copies of Let It Be and Beatles on VJ at this same time, security was a big deal I doubt anyone except The Glimmers and Miller had versions with vocals...

Could anyone really blame him? Waiting around for hours for a guy that couldn't give a @#$%&. If you've ever been around addicts of Keith's sort you'll know they don't go by the same clock us others do. And they couldn't care less if it's 4:00am or 4:00pm, they just do what they do and everybody or thing else can bloody well wait. Awfully frustrating for a sane straight person, and you'd have to be a saint not to get pissed.