Just listening to a few boots from 73 and 75, it is evident that the boys played at a much faster/frenetic pace in their songs whereas by 89, everything was much slower. This is especially evident in the last few songs of a given show i.e. Street Fighting Man from Brussels. Why?


plexi



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-03-22 05:20 by timbernardis.

8 balls

is it enough to say that they were getting older or was it a conscious decision to have a smoother, more polished act?


p

it's enough to say both

They play more slowly in '89 because they're using click counters and doing less cocaine.

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ab
They play more slowly in '89 because they're using click counters and doing less cocaine.

Exactly. They started using click tracks beacuse I think Jagger wanted a more "professional" show...also '78 and '81 were way faster than '75.

Started using Ferraris to get 'em back ta hotel ............



ROCKMAN

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ab
They play more slowly in '89 because they're using click counters

+1

Hmmmmmm, Bitch was as fast in 1989 as in 1972, You Can't Alway Cet What You want was way faster in 1989 than in 1975/76 and 1981/82. Satisfaction was faster in 1989 than in 1969. Gimme Shelter was fast engough in 1989. Things have slowed down since then, admittedly, but 1989 versions in general was not very much slower than earlier versions, sometimes the other way around.

1) Stones sort of play on the "click" only Devil, because of the sampled congas.

2) Songs were played slower in 69 tour than 67. 72/73 more and more faster. 75 onwards, more or less the correct speed, save 81/82 that was fast on most numbers.

3) Some popular boots of the 70 run fast.

4) Songs were written at a certain speed because they sound good at that particular speed.

5) It is common experience that the excitement of a live performance tends to make you play faster. Being full of coke doesn't help playing slower.


C

TD is faster, too now!

ok - so to those in the other camp:

What happened to the lazy pace of songs in the 70's to the frenetically-paced versions starting in '89?

sorry to sound dumb, but what is a click track, something to do with pre recorded material?

p

[en.wikipedia.org]

Imho this is what killed rock music in recent years (along with "hot mastering"/Loudness war).

Drummers (and therefore bands) that sound so metronomic the tunes become mechanic and lifeless. Being on the beat is one thing, sounding like a machine is another... unless you're a band like Rammstein or Ministry.

But for "classic rock" bands like the Stones, CT is the kiss of death. And iirc it's Jagger who insisted on relying on it live...

i remember at the wiltern during stray cat blues hearing the click track of her feet on stairs....

I believe the click track thing...but then...where is the audio/visual evidence of it? I don't recall seeing Charlie wearing an ear piece to hear the click track. Am I missing something here? I guess I don't know how these sophisticated stage designs "hide" the click track. Are they only hearing it on stage? Why can't we hear it? Is there an actual metronome on stage? Where is it?

Forgive the ignorance on the matter..

The world has sped up since then, making the songs to appear like they're being played slower.

As someone who has played in multiple acts that have used click tracks & sequenced parts on stage I can speek with a bit of theoretical knowledge but I claim no actual knowledge of how the Stones would work on stage. (Just some educated guesses)

One act I worked with had headphones on both our keyboard player and our drummer. Sometimes I wore the headphones as well. The way our sequencer (the machine that produced the click track and the other prerecorded tracks) was set up, one of us would press the play button and we would hear what sounded like hi-hats at half speed for one measure. This would allow us to get into the tempo of the recording so that during the second measure, we could count the rest of the band in to the song.

Another act that I worked with just had a hi-hat sound that would come through the drummer's monitor and was audible to the rest of us on stage if we listened hard enough.

Although in both cases we were "slaving to the click", mostly we just played along with whatever the prerecorded track was. That seemed to enable us to not suffer some of the problems that dcba mentioned in their post. Treated like an additional member of the band (OK so they're not human and they have perfect meter) I find sequencers/tracks can be a nice enhancement to a show. Used for "slaving to the click" & I'm in agreement with dcba... "kiss of death".

If I had to guess what the Stones are doing is less using a click track to keep the meter/tempo perfect throughout a song or synced to a backing track. I'd have to guess that someone (probably Chuck) has some sort of metronome run into their monitor so that they can hear the tempo and count in either Charlie or Keith or the whole band. Once the song starts, I'd have to believe that the click stops. Some posters here have said that there is a percussion track being used on Sympathy in recent years which may be played throughout the song. If that's the case, I'd have to believe that someone is either slaving to the click or the band is just playing along with the rhythm track to keep them in time with the track. Who knows, maybe someone off stage actually has the ability to start/stop and/or speed up/slow down the click depending on what the band's doing on stage.

Peace,
Mr DJA

'Little Queenie' from Ya Yas is almost lethargic compared to the versions I heard on the B-Stage in 1997.

I don't think the songs played in '89 were all that slow. Some probably were slower than the frenetic '70's versions but I still think the Stones were playing very well in '89/'90. I think things have gone down hill since.

I also figure that the Stones only use the click-track to start the song off in the correct tempo, not for the entire song.

start me up,honky tonk and other songs played in 81 are more slow than in 89 but this has nothing to do with click...

Even if HTW was slow in 1975 and 1976 it was cool, the best version, actually the only live version I like. It was slow but cool. And thats because of the band, Mick and Keiths interaction, Keiths guitar work and Ollie Brown. Different band in 1989 really, they changed and so did the music.

I don't think the click track is limited to "Sympathy." If you look at a set list, it typically shows bpm, as well as the key.

Agreed, the slow versions of HTW in 1975 and 1976 are the best ones. Also the slower Gimme Shelters of the 1994/95 outings are better than the faster ones of 1989/90 (but both of them pales in comparison with most 70s versions, just had to say that). What I mean is, slower does not mean worse necessarily.

I also agree with Tumblin_Dice_07 that 1989 was way better than anything since.

And texas fan, that the bpm is shown on the set list does not have to mean anything else than Chuck counts them in, by the aid of a click track, in that tempo. OK, if every version of every song takes the exact same time from start to finish, they probably use a click track throughout. I am not the one who will put this to the test.

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24FPS
'Little Queenie' from Ya Yas is almost lethargic compared to the versions I heard on the B-Stage in 1997.

Exactly, & 'Carol', 'I'm Free' & 'Under My Thumb' are other songs that were considerably slowed down in 1969 / 1970 (more so than pretty much anything since 1989 with the possible exception of 'I Just Wanna Make Love To You'). This is why I find the early Mick Taylor live era so overrated.

As for speeding songs up, listen to 'Got Live If You Want It!' (the 1966 LP)!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-03-23 10:57 by Sleepy City.

Er, just a remark: the Stones do not and never have used a click track. They only use the indication of BPM's as a guide to the pace of a song, and Chuck Leavell uses a click track to count off certain songs. They started doing this when they started to delve back in to their catalogue for the live shows, and somewhat more difficult tracks where played, like Monkey Man, and tracks with piano intro's etc.

Standard use of a click track is in the studio, where you don't want a certain song to speed up or slow down. If you use a click track it makes overdubbing parts much easier. As far as I know the Stones have hardly ever used this.

Mathijs

"the Stones do not and never have used a click track. They only use the indication of BPM's as a guide to the pace of a song, and Chuck Leavell uses a click track to count off certain songs"

That's more or less the same and that's the root of the modern/robotic/boring Stones live sound. The last tour I wholly enjoyed was 82 with its frantic playing pace.
After that gigs had a Xerox quality that was at times embarrassing...

"Unpredictability" : that's the KEY word. As soon as you us technological crutches well you're done as a live band... (imho).

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Mathijs
Er, just a remark: the Stones do not and never have used a click track. They only use the indication of BPM's as a guide to the pace of a song, and Chuck Leavell uses a click track to count off certain songs. They started doing this when they started to delve back in to their catalogue for the live shows, and somewhat more difficult tracks where played, like Monkey Man, and tracks with piano intro's etc.

Standard use of a click track is in the studio, where you don't want a certain song to speed up or slow down. If you use a click track it makes overdubbing parts much easier. As far as I know the Stones have hardly ever used this.

Mathijs

Thanks, Mathijs. I, of course, don't know whether a click track is used or, if so, who might be hearing it during the song. Your comment makes sense, except that I think a specific notation of beats per minute seems a bit more than a "guide," it's pretty concrete. I think you're right, though -- if Chuck uses it for the count-in, it probably does not continue through the song. It would be easy enough to tell if we really tested it, but like Anderson, I will not be the one to test it. I'm going to just take your word for it...

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24FPS
'Little Queenie' from Ya Yas is almost lethargic compared to the versions I heard on the B-Stage in 1997.

The 1997 arrangement of Little Queenie is based on the winter 1973 arrangement.

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Mathijs
Er, just a remark: the Stones do not and never have used a click track. They only use the indication of BPM's as a guide to the pace of a song, and Chuck Leavell uses a click track to count off certain songs. They started doing this when they started to delve back in to their catalogue for the live shows, and somewhat more difficult tracks where played, like Monkey Man, and tracks with piano intro's etc.

Standard use of a click track is in the studio, where you don't want a certain song to speed up or slow down. If you use a click track it makes overdubbing parts much easier. As far as I know the Stones have hardly ever used this.

Mathijs

I guess you can call the sampled track on sympathy since '89 a clicktrack? In some concert footage, you can also see Charlie "facing" his monitor behind him on this song.
Also in the documentary about Bridges to Babylon, there's a sequence of recording Already Over Me (If I remember correctly), and there is definetly a click track going there. I would be surrised if that's the only example.

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