A quick search through the archives of IORR finds many threads/discussions regarding the amps used by the Stones on various tours ’69 through Bigger Bang, with a heavy emphasis on the Ampeg and Boogie era up to ’82 or so.

What I’ve not been able to find are as many in-depth discussions on their sound reinforcement systems. (I apologize in advance if I missed the thread for these discussions.)

For instance, I have heard that, at one point, the Stones live sound reinforcement system was provided by Showco, who handled many major live acts in the 70's including Led Zeppelin and the Who. But do we know which tours they handled the PA for the Stones? Based on when Showco's popularity seemed to peak, and based on the tours that Zep and the Who used them, I’m guessing that 75, 76, and 78 are likely candidates for a Showco/Stones partnership. But I have no idea. Anybody shed any light on that? What about other companies who were contracted for sound reinforcement on other tours? Are there links to good, meaty information about these systems?

Also, jumping ahead to Licks and 2002, there were several articles about the Stones partnership with dbSound. Now, contrary to what you’d think should be a profitable arrangement for dbSound (I mean, who on the planet would be a bigger client for a sound system company than the Rolling Stones, and what would be a bigger feather in your cap?) I think they probably felt like their system was, well, under-utilized and perhaps not a good reflection on their capabilities or quality. I thought the sound on that tour--and really, most tours since 89 or maybe even 81-- was generally awful. And perhaps through no fault whatsover of the sound reinforcement system.

By that time, the Stones almost seemed afraid to have the guitars up in the mix, and my impression of nearly every concert I’ve seen since 1989 is that I’ve heard some church sound systems that are louder than the Stones. Take SARS for an obvious contrast: AC/DC, nice and loud, the guitars are right there in your face. The Stones, by the accounts of people who were there, were barely audible. Well, Keith and Ronnie anyway. There was a discussion at the time on an AC/DC board about how the Stones guitars were inaudible. Well, that wasn’t an anomaly at SARS, but it has been that way for years now.

I can’t count how many times I’ve been to a Stones concert in the “Vegas” era and the loudest thing I heard all evening was a frickin’ horn blast from the sax or trumpet players. Some songs, like Sympathy, literally DO NOT EXIST--they simply ARE NOT THERE--if you take away the “oo-oos” and backing crap. Occasionally, when Ronnie or Keith would step up to take a “solo” (have to put that in quotes these days), you could very obviously notice the soundboard guy pump up the guitar volume for a minute or less, to a level that they should be at ALL the time if the guitarists on stage had any kind of confidence anymore. (Actually, I’d pump it up even more. Every show since '94 at least the guitars could’ve been TWICE as loud in the mix the whole time and the overall effect would have been one of massive improvement, even if Keith and Ronnie do play like arthritic monkeys or whatever. At least you could hear and feel them, warts and all.)

This can lead one to conclude, probably incorrectly, that it’s the sound system at Stones shows that sucks. But I think it’s more to do with the ridiculous choices that are made by…well, I think it comes back to the Stones themselves. I don’t think you can blame it on the soundboard guys, or the sound system. It’s like they’ve chosen to bury themselves in the mix of a ‘wash’ of supporting noise that propels the songs along—something the guitars used to do back in the Ampeg days.

Here’s another question: To what degree can the sound reinforcement system color the output from the amps that are mic’d onstage? Obviously there’s a large group of folks, myself included, who would love the Stones to hit the road with Ampeg V9s, or a Boogie Mark I slaved through an SVT. But what happens to that great raw signal between the time it enters the microphone in front of the amp onstage, and the time it exits the big banks of reinforcement speakers flanking the stage? I suppose it’s up to the soundboard folks to further “process” the sound or leave it be, and we’d all like to think it’s setup to preserve the stage amp tone, but perhaps it isn’t?

I think the Stones of the modern era could hit the road with the greatest ever sound system EVER, and play through Ampegs, etc., and use the ole crunchy humbuckered Zemaitises, whatever, and it would still come out sounding like the same puny, thin, barely audible pussified tone we’ve had for years. Their guitar sound the last two decades is the equivalent of Matt Clifford keyboads, or Chuck L. plink. It’s how they choose to utilize the tools and sound system they have, I think. The poor soundboard guys are probably instructed not to bury Chuck or elevate what has sadly become the non-essential instruments (i.e., Keith and Ronnie) or the wheels will fall off the whole song.


Anyway, to summarize:

1) Showco?
2) Sound reinforcement companies on Stones tours?
3) How is the guitar tone affected from the time it leaves the mic’d amp on stage to the time it’s output at the speaker banks?
3) Do the Stones sound systems during the Vegas era suck, or are we just scapegoating the sound system because, well, the guitar players can’t hack it anymore?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-03-05 10:03 by rocker1.

This is why all those endless guitar changes are purely visual.

Guitars low in the mix? no - the band is self-mixing ( i don`t kno if its correct word).Keith and Ronnie are blues - oriented guitarists - it means they are weaving - it means they use heir volume pots in guitars and sometimes from their point of hearing everything sounds good.Sometimes they are loud , sometimes not .That`s all.Notice that they are older and they can prefer quieter conditions of work
And this is not AC DC .

The band has no control over what comes out of the PA. I mean they have control, as far as authority over hiring the PA guys goes, but once they are onstage, they can twiddle their volume on guitars and amps all they want, but this will not influence what a massive stadium PA system projects.
This has nothing to do with being a Blues guitarist, or what their stage volume is.

There are many factors in sound reinforcement.The main is room acoustics - for example O2 has very good acoustics - there are many samples on You Tube from BB last gigs in London .Everything is audible , guitars are loud.It is much easier for sound guys and musicians to play in such venues.But the main factor is band`s sound.Sloppy performances , drunk or bored guitarist make listening to the music unbearable in bigger amount than bad acoustics and Stones have the best mixing guys available in this business.
There is small amount of sound processing between amps and PA.There are signals boosters/conditioners , there are simple dynamic microphones like Shure Sm57 .there are preamps for mics , usually a bit of compression on guitars and small eq tweaking.Ronnie`s and Keith`s amps they sound heavenly.When they have good day and acoustics is good we have great concert (Mick and Charlie are almost always in top form).



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-03-05 16:09 by benon again.

I am not sure what point you are making.
It seems like you are lumping three categories into the same argument.
The acoustics of a room are one thing
Then there is band's sound, and thirdly band's performance. Drunk sloppy performance doesn't have anything to do with the physical sound coming out of the front of the PA.
Are you saying that there is very little going on between the stage guitar-amp and the what comes out of the PA only in the Stones' case, or in general with any band at live show?
There might be little extra effects in the monitor mixes, but the FOH has a lot more going on.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-03-05 16:51 by Palace Revolution 2000.

What the hell is a sound reinforcement system? Are you talking about the PA? And wouldn't it be sound enforcement?

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rocker1
Their guitar sound the last two decades is the equivalent of Matt Clifford keyboads, or Chuck L. plink.

Including the last tour?! I listened to some clips at Youtube, and thought they played and sounded well. Performance and sound are much connected, as has been suggested before; the problems of playing large stadiums are on their own and have little to do with the quality of the sound system

Maybe the mixer for the shows doesn't want the fans to be embarrassed so he pulls Keith and Ronnie out of the mix and puts Blondie way up high...

Ask the bands hired sound engineer

I was also wondering what in the name of god a 'sound reinforcement system' was too

Its called a PA system. And it travels with the band and it's own specialist crew from gig to gig

It always makes me laugh when someone reviews a gig and says something stupid like "god the o2 PA system stinks" as if the PA system is the venues

There were rumors that in his heyday, Bruce Springsteen would check out the sound during soundcheck from different seat locations for make sure it was good, if not, it was tweaked. He supposedly was worried (smartly) that no matter how much he gave on stage, a bad PA mix for that particular venue would mean a bad show in the eyes of the fans. If the story is true, he is one very smart guy. His name was on the ticket, he wanted to make sure the sound was right.

With the Stones massive stage taking several days to set up for a show, I would like to think they have time to tweak the sound for each venue. It should be perfect. Maybe the distraction of all the stage set-up, lights, fireworks and video distracts crew from what should be their number one focus: how the band sounds.

Quote
lsbz

Quote
rocker1
Their guitar sound the last two decades is the equivalent of Matt Clifford keyboads, or Chuck L. plink.

Including the last tour?! I listened to some clips at Youtube, and thought they played and sounded well. Performance and sound are much connected, as has been suggested before; the problems of playing large stadiums are on their own and have little to do with the quality of the sound system

Exactly.

Weather and atmospheric conditions have a huge effect on the quality of sound at a large outdoor venue. Humidity and wind direction and speed can alter what comes out of the PA. Also, there is a big difference in doing a sound check in an empty stadium and then doing a show with the place filled with people. The technology has improved immeasurably over the years and The Stones certainly use the some of the best PA companies and audio engineers available but,in my opinion, an open air show will never sound as good as one in an indoor controlled environment.

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rocker1
A quick search through the archives of IORR finds many threads/discussions regarding the amps used by the Stones on various tours ’69 through Bigger Bang, with a heavy emphasis on the Ampeg and Boogie era up to ’82 or so.

What I’ve not been able to find are as many in-depth discussions on their sound reinforcement systems. (I apologize in advance if I missed the thread for these discussions.)

For instance, I have heard that, at one point, the Stones live sound reinforcement system was provided by Showco, who handled many major live acts in the 70's including Led Zeppelin and the Who. But do we know which tours they handled the PA for the Stones? Based on when Showco's popularity seemed to peak, and based on the tours that Zep and the Who used them, I’m guessing that 75, 76, and 78 are likely candidates for a Showco/Stones partnership. But I have no idea. Anybody shed any light on that? What about other companies who were contracted for sound reinforcement on other tours? Are there links to good, meaty information about these systems?

Also, jumping ahead to Licks and 2002, there were several articles about the Stones partnership with dbSound. Now, contrary to what you’d think should be a profitable arrangement for dbSound (I mean, who on the planet would be a bigger client for a sound system company than the Rolling Stones, and what would be a bigger feather in your cap?) I think they probably felt like their system was, well, under-utilized and perhaps not a good reflection on their capabilities or quality. I thought the sound on that tour--and really, most tours since 89 or maybe even 81-- was generally awful. And perhaps through no fault whatsover of the sound reinforcement system.

By that time, the Stones almost seemed afraid to have the guitars up in the mix, and my impression of nearly every concert I’ve seen since 1989 is that I’ve heard some church sound systems that are louder than the Stones. Take SARS for an obvious contrast: AC/DC, nice and loud, the guitars are right there in your face. The Stones, by the accounts of people who were there, were barely audible. Well, Keith and Ronnie anyway. There was a discussion at the time on an AC/DC board about how the Stones guitars were inaudible. Well, that wasn’t an anomaly at SARS, but it has been that way for years now.

I can’t count how many times I’ve been to a Stones concert in the “Vegas” era and the loudest thing I heard all evening was a frickin’ horn blast from the sax or trumpet players. Some songs, like Sympathy, literally DO NOT EXIST--they simply ARE NOT THERE--if you take away the “oo-oos” and backing crap. Occasionally, when Ronnie or Keith would step up to take a “solo” (have to put that in quotes these days), you could very obviously notice the soundboard guy pump up the guitar volume for a minute or less, to a level that they should be at ALL the time if the guitarists on stage had any kind of confidence anymore. (Actually, I’d pump it up even more. Every show since '94 at least the guitars could’ve been TWICE as loud in the mix the whole time and the overall effect would have been one of massive improvement, even if Keith and Ronnie do play like arthritic monkeys or whatever. At least you could hear and feel them, warts and all.)

This can lead one to conclude, probably incorrectly, that it’s the sound system at Stones shows that sucks. But I think it’s more to do with the ridiculous choices that are made by…well, I think it comes back to the Stones themselves. I don’t think you can blame it on the soundboard guys, or the sound system. It’s like they’ve chosen to bury themselves in the mix of a ‘wash’ of supporting noise that propels the songs along—something the guitars used to do back in the Ampeg days.

Here’s another question: To what degree can the sound reinforcement system color the output from the amps that are mic’d onstage? Obviously there’s a large group of folks, myself included, who would love the Stones to hit the road with Ampeg V9s, or a Boogie Mark I slaved through an SVT. But what happens to that great raw signal between the time it enters the microphone in front of the amp onstage, and the time it exits the big banks of reinforcement speakers flanking the stage? I suppose it’s up to the soundboard folks to further “process” the sound or leave it be, and we’d all like to think it’s setup to preserve the stage amp tone, but perhaps it isn’t?

I think the Stones of the modern era could hit the road with the greatest ever sound system EVER, and play through Ampegs, etc., and use the ole crunchy humbuckered Zemaitises, whatever, and it would still come out sounding like the same puny, thin, barely audible pussified tone we’ve had for years. Their guitar sound the last two decades is the equivalent of Matt Clifford keyboads, or Chuck L. plink. It’s how they choose to utilize the tools and sound system they have, I think. The poor soundboard guys are probably instructed not to bury Chuck or elevate what has sadly become the non-essential instruments (i.e., Keith and Ronnie) or the wheels will fall off the whole song.


Anyway, to summarize:

1) Showco?
2) Sound reinforcement companies on Stones tours?
3) How is the guitar tone affected from the time it leaves the mic’d amp on stage to the time it’s output at the speaker banks?
3) Do the Stones sound systems during the Vegas era suck, or are we just scapegoating the sound system because, well, the guitar players can’t hack it anymore?

I'm a sound tech and have worked for many shows and artists over the years (including the Stones) so I feel qualified to respond to your questions about live sound and sound-reinforcement systems. First, to answer your question about ShowCo: the Stones used ShowCo as their sound company beginning in 1975 (and possibly as early as 1972) and used them on all their American tours (and I think in Europe too) up to the "Voodoo Lounge Tour" in 1994-95. So, that would be: 75/76,'78,'81/82,'89/90 and'94/95. They switched to db Sound for the "Bridges To Babylon Tour" in 1997-98, and stayed with them for the "No Security" tour in '99 and "Licks" in 2002-03. One of the reasons they switched to db Sound was a deal production manager Jake Berry had worked out with the company - which was at that point, on the verge of bankruptcy. I don't remember all the specifics but I think Berry became a part-owner of db and was able to get the Stones a good deal on the rental price for the touring system, and at the same time keep the company from going under...and probably made a nice profit for himself as well. For the "Bigger Bang Tour" in 2005-07 they again switched companies - this time to Clair Bros. I should point out that in recent years, Clair bought out both ShowCo and db Sound and consolidated them under their growing corporate umbrella.

Next, to answer your question about how a guitar's tone is affected by the P.A. system. Well, the short answer is it just takes the guitar sound and makes it MUCH LOUDER! But seriously, the idea of a properly utilized sound system is generally not to overly color or process the sound on stage, but rather to provide a means for the it to be heard throughtout the entire arena. Of course, there are various electronic effects such as EQ's, compressors, digital reverb, etc. that can manipulate the sound to some degree but the basic theory is that the sound system is supposed to be somewhat transparent (for a rock band, anyway) and just provide a means for the sound engineer to be able to blend and balance (i.e. "mix" ) the levels of the instruments and vocals onstage, and amplify this sound for the entire venue in proper volume level. Of course, it is much more complex then that but basically, the sound system shouldn't mess too much the tone of what's coming out of the guitar amps. Usually, whatever sound the guitarist wants is produced from a combination of his hands, guitar, amp and whatever effects he is using onstage. From that point on very little in the way of electronic effects are usually added at the mixing board. So, what you hear(or the microphones "hear" ) in front of Keith's amp is what you hear over the sound system...only louder.

Back in the 60'and 70's, sound systems weren't as sophisticated as they are today and were primarily used to amplify the vocals so guitarists would use big and powerful amplifiers onstage so they could hear themself play and compete with the volume of the vocals and other instruments coming through the P.A. speakers. As time went on, monitor systems got much better so musicians could start hearing themselves (and each other) much better onstage and consequently didn't need such loud amps anymore. So, you started seeing less of the large Marshall's, Hiwatt's and Ampeg's and more of the smaller Mesa-Boogies, Fender's and so forth. The trend these days is to use small amps with a very good distorted tone...but that aren't really loud so their sound level can be controlled entitrely from the mixing board. But still, there is only so much any sound system or enginner can do, and if the band (or guitarist) sounds like crap, that's what you're gonna get out of the speakers. And at some Stones shows, unfortunately, that's what you get. But don't blame it on the engineer, the sound company or the crew. They are the best in the business...but can only do so much.

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buffalo7478

With the Stones massive stage taking several days to set up for a show, I would like to think they have time to tweak the sound for each venue. It should be perfect. Maybe the distraction of all the stage set-up, lights, fireworks and video distracts crew from what should be their number one focus: how the band sounds.

While it's true the stage structure for a stadium concert is set up several days in advance, the sound and lights are only set up the day before the show and it's not until the afternoon of the show after all the guitar amps and drums are set up that an actual soundcheck happens. The soundcheck is usually done by the roadies....the band is rarely there for it.