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stupidguy2Quote
BlissQuote
Glam Descendant
Bliss, why bother to "contribute" to a thread about Marianne if you don't appreciate her? Just to bitch?
I was unaware that this was a 'Marianne Faithfull appreciation thread'.
I consider my contributions, based on my extensive knowledge of Stones history, to be of value, irrespective of my personal views.
Ditto.
And Glam, its all mostly about Mick.
I flip flop about Marianne all the time. I want to like her, she can be witty, is intelligent....but then she'll annoy me again. Seriously, I'll read an interview with Marianne and Jerry Hall ain't so bad. Then Jerry Hall will annoy me and I think, 'She's no Marianne or Bianca...' so what to do?
MF's self-congratulatory ruminations of Life With Mick have amused me since I was 13 years old. They change with the wind, or her current state of mind. Because I was an obsessed Stones fan, I read everything about everybody connected to the Stones, like most of us here. We're all "experts".
Its actually refreshing to read critical observations of people like Marianne because for years, she's been a sort of Stones sacred cow who fans seemed to romanticize ...seemed to get off on the idea of some weary decadance, or the idea of it. The fragile waif eaten by the ravenous, hard-hearted Jagger or the mythical creature who left Jagger an empty shell of a man who could only forlornly seek some elusive romantic ideal with lesser women, a Muse who left Jagger an empty shell of an artist left only to go through the motions with some less worthy muse... the angel to his devil, the Ophelia to his Hamlet...only to be left ravaged by life, her own frailty.....etc....Please. It all seemed so flaky to me. How many times do I have to read that she, and only she, inspired Mick to create. His work suffered in her absence, she has actully claimed that several times over the years. How arrogant and self-absorbed can you be?
And two books, a film....what's next? As for Morphine, I love the acoustic guitar and Ry Cooder's slide, but the lyrics are silly. I never doubted MF's hand in this song because melodramatic lines like 'Lying in my hospital bed....the doctor has no face...' had Marianne written all over it.
As for 'Wild Horses', Keith said it was his line, not Marianne's. Yeah, I know, who to believe, two delusional former junkies staking a claim.
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stupidguy2
I actually think Chrissie Shrimpton was Jagger's most interesting early muse. Chrissie was volatile, and pre-fame Jagger was probably not as cocky as later on so he probably got beat up on a regular basis, figuratively and literally.... and those early songs were so combative and full of energy and youthfull discovery of the opposite sex. So I would love to hear from Chrissie. 'Show me the boy and I'll show you the man' or something like that. Chrissie is the underdog here in terms of inspiration. Marianne was hipper, but Chrissie seemed pretty fierce.
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nkt44Quote
stupidguy2
I actually think Chrissie Shrimpton was Jagger's most interesting early muse. Chrissie was volatile, and pre-fame Jagger was probably not as cocky as later on so he probably got beat up on a regular basis, figuratively and literally.... and those early songs were so combative and full of energy and youthfull discovery of the opposite sex. So I would love to hear from Chrissie. 'Show me the boy and I'll show you the man' or something like that. Chrissie is the underdog here in terms of inspiration. Marianne was hipper, but Chrissie seemed pretty fierce.
Totally agree. Would love to hear from Chrissie. If I remember well Mick legally stopped her from publishing his letters to her. What a shame.
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proudmary
Marianne says: "I've gotten over it. I just wish everybody else would, too."
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Bliss
>>I've never said anything about... that, and I never will. It has nothing to do with me any more. I've gotten over it. I just wish everybody else would, too."
Hang on.....didn't she recently say the todger taunt was 'almost accurate'?
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proudmary
I think Marianne's comment - " not quite, but nearly" - was taken out of context by Classic Rock.
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Rolling HansieQuote
proudmary
I think Marianne's comment - " not quite, but nearly" - was taken out of context by Classic Rock.
Thanks proudmary. Those were the words I was looking for in my earlier post, but I couldn't find.
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Bliss
.....But she is underestimating the others' value, and I suppose she is basing this on the fact that the Stones' artistic output declined in quality after she and Mick broke up. Bianca is clearly a very serious woman, and Jerry gave Mick real stability and a family of 4 adored children, quote]
That's it for me. Not all of us believe the Stones died in 1969. In fact, many of us came to love the Stones because of Some Girls, so MF's arrogance is particularly insulting.
I must preface the rest of this post by saying that when it comes to the subject of Muse, its all supposition and good old fashion guessing and personal opinion. So before some smart-ass tells me I think too much, or read too much into things, sue me.
I don't think anyone can discount MF's impact, or place in Stones' history, but she tends to diminish the rest of the bunch and their influence. I also think Wild Horses is about the end of his relationship with MF, regardless of who came up with the chorus line..as was I've Got the Blues, Can't You Hear Me Knocking, Dead Flowers. However, if this were a court of law, I could also argue the merits of Chrissie, Marsha Hunt, Bianca and Jerry Hall as Muse. (and of course all the woman in between and discounting Anita because we're talking about Jagger's lyrics specifically, which some would tell you are meanlingless)
The evidence suggest that all these women have their place in Stones history.
Yes, MF loves to talk about Horses, Sympathy, Morphine etc....and in that category, I would place songs like Parachute Woman, Jigsaw Puzzle ('with my woman, lying on the floor..etc) She's a Rainbow, She Smiled Sweetly, No Expectations etc...
Iconic songs.
Chrissie was there first however. Under My Thumb, Nervous Breakdown, Going Home, and just the energy in these songs is invigorating. Mick was a kid and this young woman was, apparently, a real firecracker. MF always likes to say that Mick wrote "those horrible songs about Chrissie", Im paraphrasing of course, but she has suggested that Mick was writing these mysogynist lyrics because of CHrissie. I could argue that young, provincial and slightly sexist English Mick was getting his ass kicked by the first strong woman in his life. Yeah, the songs are naive and adolescent, but they're real.
Marsha Hunt made her debut around 68, 69? I always thought the early version of Loving Cup could have been her because the song is about finding romantic solace and by that time, MF was spending more and more time with drugs getting sucked into the Brian/Keith/Anita vortex... Brown Sugar? Marsha thinks so.
And then Bianca was a presence at the end of Sticky Fingers (Bitch, Moonlight Mile, maybe Sway, who knows? These were last batch of songs recorded at Stargroves after he became involved with Bianca) She was also an iconic presence or absence at Nellcote. Throughout Exile, songs like Let It Loose, Tumbling Dice, All DOwn the LIne, Rocks Off, Soul Survivor and others suggest the beginnings of something., a new chapter in his life etc..
From there, Jagger wrote some of his best ballads, Winter, If You Really Want to Be My Friend, Fool To Cry, Memory Hotel (which sounds like its about an affair during a breaking point in couple's relationship) likely inspired by his marriage to Bianca. Fun songs like Short and Curlies, Hide Your Love etc...These songs may not have the iconic aura of the 60s, but one could argue that they do suggest a vulnerability and emotional complexity songs like She's a Rainbow do not and some of us really, really like them. Then you have songs like Crazy Mama, which is sexy and fun and has an exhuberant rock and roll energy. And of course Some Girls and perhaps into some of Emotional Rescue, which both seem to be driven by a sense of urgency at the end of that relationship. Not too shabby for Bianca.
WIth Jerry Hall, she most likely inspired songs like Start Me Up, Heaven, which seems like a sexual regeneration in Jagger's life. Jerry could also have, perhaps unintentionally, influenced a country flavor on many of the songs on Some Girls (Eyes, and an unreleased gem called Spare Parts and the steel guitar moments which ran through Emotional Rescue.) She did inspire the cover art for Some Girls.
Not too shabby for Jerry.
(I won't go into the latter-day Stones simply because the music is so spread out time-wise not concentrated on one era or period and the songs lack a certain resonance.)
(I also agree about L'wren. She seems to have brought a real maturity and integrity into Jagger's life and Im waiting to see what she brings to the table musically. Too soon to tell perhaps.)
Its almost as if MF believes that because she sees herself as an artist, these other women couldn't possibly contribute anything of value.
Nonsense.
All these women have contributed to Jagger's art, they all have their place.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2011-03-08 01:23 by stupidguy2.
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stupidguy2Quote
Bliss
.....But she is underestimating the others' value, and I suppose she is basing this on the fact that the Stones' artistic output declined in quality after she and Mick broke up. Bianca is clearly a very serious woman, and Jerry gave Mick real stability and a family of 4 adored children, quote]
That's it for me. Not all of us believe the Stones died in 1969. In fact, many of us came to love the Stones because of Some Girls, so MF's arrogance is particularly insulting.
I must preface the rest of this post by saying that when it comes to the subject of Muse, its all supposition and good old fashion guessing and personal opinion. So before some smart-ass tells me I think too much, or read too much into things, sue me.
I don't think anyone can discount MF's impact, or place in Stones' history, but she tends to diminish the rest of the bunch and their influence. I also think Wild Horses is about the end of his relationship with MF, regardless of who came up with the chorus line..as was I've Got the Blues, Can't You Hear Me Knocking, Dead Flowers. However, if this were a court of law, I could also argue the merits of Chrissie, Marsha Hunt, Bianca and Jerry Hall as Muse. (and of course all the woman in between and discounting Anita because we're talking about Jagger's lyrics specifically, which some would tell you are meanlingless)
The evidence suggest that all these women have their place in Stones history.
Yes, MF loves to talk about Horses, Sympathy, Morphine etc....and in that category, I would place songs like Parachute Woman, Jigsaw Puzzle ('with my woman, lying on the floor..etc) She's a Rainbow, She Smiled Sweetly, No Expectations etc...
Iconic songs.
Chrissie was there first however. Under My Thumb, Nervous Breakdown, Going Home, and just the energy in these songs is invigorating. Mick was a kid and this young woman was, apparently, a real firecracker. MF always likes to say that Mick wrote "those horrible songs about Chrissie", Im paraphrasing of course, but she has suggested that Mick was writing these mysogynist lyrics because of CHrissie. I could argue that young, provincial and slightly sexist English Mick was getting his ass kicked by the first strong woman in his life. Yeah, the songs are naive and adolescent, but they're real.
Marsha Hunt made her debut around 68, 69? I always thought the early version of Loving Cup could have been her because the song is about finding romantic solace and by that time, MF was spending more and more time with drugs getting sucked into the Brian/Keith/Anita vortex... Brown Sugar? Marsha thinks so.
And then Bianca was a presence at the end of Sticky Fingers (Bitch, Moonlight Mile, maybe Sway, who knows? These were last batch of songs recorded at Stargroves after he became involved with Bianca) She was also an iconic presence or absence at Nellcote. Throughout Exile, songs like Let It Loose, Tumbling Dice, All DOwn the LIne, Rocks Off, Soul Survivor and others suggest the beginnings of something., a new chapter in his life etc..
From there, Jagger wrote some of his best ballads, Winter, If You Really Want to Be My Friend, Fool To Cry, Memory Hotel (which sounds like its about an affair during a breaking point in couple's relationship) likely inspired by his marriage to Bianca. Fun songs like Short and Curlies, Hide Your Love etc...These songs may not have the iconic aura of the 60s, but one could argue that they do suggest a vulnerability and emotional complexity songs like She's a Rainbow do not and some of us really, really like them. Then you have songs like Crazy Mama, which is sexy and fun and has an exhuberant rock and roll energy. And of course Some Girls and perhaps into some of Emotional Rescue, which both seem to be driven by a sense of urgency at the end of that relationship. Not too shabby for Bianca.
WIth Jerry Hall, she most likely inspired songs like Start Me Up, Heaven, which seems like a sexual regeneration in Jagger's life. Jerry could also have, perhaps unintentionally, influenced a country flavor on many of the songs on Some Girls (Eyes, and an unreleased gem called Spare Parts and the steel guitar moments which ran through Emotional Rescue.) She did inspire the cover art for Some Girls.
Not too shabby for Jerry.
(I won't go into the latter-day Stones simply because the music is so spread out time-wise not concentrated on one era or period and the songs lack a certain resonance.)
(I also agree about L'wren. She seems to have brought a real maturity and integrity into Jagger's life and Im waiting to see what she brings to the table musically. Too soon to tell perhaps.)
Its almost as if MF believes that because she sees herself as an artist, these other women couldn't possibly contribute anything of value.
Nonsense.
All these women have contributed to Jagger's art, they all have their place.
Excellent analysis. But you left out Carla Bruni, who was MJ's mistress from '94 til '02. From all accounts, Carla is a REAL firecracker; secure family background, beautiful, famous, an heiress, highly intelligent, and completely uninhibited. It's difficult in some cases to work out who inspired which songs, because so many of the songs were released years after they were initially conceived.
The Telegraph article really showcases why Marianne is so irritating. Her most salient characteristic is her self-serving narcissism. See how she blithely skates over the fact that she effectively abandoned her son and put him at great risk. It's all about her, and that is why she wants back pay for her services as muse. She discusses her homelessness but has never clarified how she paid for heroin. However, her r'ship with Spanish Tony gives us a big clue.
She has mentioned a few times that much of her r'ship with MJ was non-sexual. It's surprising, and a credit to her that he stayed with her that long, if that was the case.
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Rolling Hansie
I sit and watch the children play
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Bliss
Carla on the 90 tour? She said in some interview in the last couple of years that she had been involved with Mick for 8 years. She has stated a few times I can recall that the thrill of sexual passion disappears after the first few weeks.
He has been with L'Wren since 2002. I also read that Mick wanted to leave Jerry and marry her, but she refused. (This was from an excerpt of her bio.) I find this unlikely. I recall an interview where she said what agony it was to be involved with a married man, though she could have been referring to a number of other men!
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proudmary
It's kind of interesting that all of Mick's women(I mean serious rel-ps) had father issues
Marianne - Her parents have divorced when she was 3 or 4 years. She never had normal relations with her father
Bianca - was raised by single mother and her father was out of touch
Jerry - run away from the violent father who had beaten her
Carla- The illegal daughter who felt all her life that she's different. And only couple of years ago she has learned that she is the daughter of the Brazilian musician with whom her mother had an affair
L'Wren - The foster daughter in a Mormon family. I think that with her appearance it was uneasy to grow up in Utah
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stupidguy2Quote
proudmary
It's kind of interesting that all of Mick's women(I mean serious rel-ps) had father issues
Marianne - Her parents have divorced when she was 3 or 4 years. She never had normal relations with her father
Bianca - was raised by single mother and her father was out of touch
Jerry - run away from the violent father who had beaten her
Carla- The illegal daughter who felt all her life that she's different. And only couple of years ago she has learned that she is the daughter of the Brazilian musician with whom her mother had an affair
L'Wren - The foster daughter in a Mormon family. I think that with her appearance it was uneasy to grow up in Utah
True, I've noticed that also. MF, Bianca, Jerry Hall all seemed to have trust issues, and what a toxic partner Jagger must have been! The ultimate adulterer.
I didn't know that about Bruni.
L'wren was adopted and raised Mormon, that is very interesting. Perhaps she's the most secure of them all.
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Bliss
Very cool and revealing interview. Lynn Barber seems to react to Marianne the same way I do, or perhaps she's just a real bitch.