watched crossfire hurricane 1st ive ever heard jagger speak of b. jones death highlight of film even richards with all his bravado i think they regret not trying to do more to help him

Thank Christ! Just in time....

They didn't know how to treat spiritually and emotionally sick people like Brian in those days.

What should have happened if it were the modern day society is that they would have put Brian into a treatment center.

Brian's lack of living and coping skills were further enhanced by the fact that he was using every type of drug imaginable to escape. He was a tortured person. Very self centered as most drug addicts and alcoholics can be.

Brian was a lousy person though. He was impregnating girls and never acknowledging his children. He was beating up his girlfriends including Anita due to his extreme insecurity. He was paranoid as well as having an enormous ego with which he hid his insecurity. He was no fun to be around. Yet he continued to come around even in such a deteriorated state.

Mick and Keith get incorrectly accused of being the bad guys picking on poor Brian. The fact of the matter is that Brian made his own bed and had to sleep in it so to speak. The only problem with Brian was Brian. He was a wreck and he made it all worse by continuing to use drugs even though he was a basket case and having a nervous breakdown.

There would be nothing that they could have done to save him at the time. Brian would have had to have wanted to be saved and change his life around. At the same time, this would have made him not fit in the Stones, which by this time he already didn't anyway.

The best thing was that he left. Now if only they had treatment centers at that time where he could have straightened out. Back then no one knew much about how to help someone in that shape.

He created alot of his own bad luck, if he hadn't beaten Anita, and so on. Maybe Keith had it right back then, "There are some people you meet, and you know they will never be thirty........" Sad deal for sure.

I like to think that his final days ended in hope. He seemed to be pulling it together away from London and not out and about getting high on everything. He seemed at peace and was looking forward. Maybe he was delusional and would have fallen back into bad habits. It's not like the rock star life of the 70s would have encouraged better behavior. But I like to think he was trying to reach a better place.

Better late than never....maybe? There was AA back in the 60s & rehabs for drug addicts...can't understand why it's said 'nobody' knew how to help these disorders?

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24FPS
I like to think that his final days ended in hope. He seemed to be pulling it together away from London and not out and about getting high on everything. He seemed at peace and was looking forward. Maybe he was delusional and would have fallen back into bad habits. It's not like the rock star life of the 70s would have encouraged better behavior. But I like to think he was trying to reach a better place.

He would have had to reach a modest place--in terms of living quarters, that is. He was already deep in debt at the time of his death--something like over £100,000, and it's likely that he would not be able to afford living on at Cotchford much longer as an ex-Rolling Stone. Losing the place he had so loved to acquire--that might have sent him down a spiral, who knows? Plus the challenge of adjusting to a smaller, less popular degree of success in a new band. He may have embraced the start of something new once he envisioned it, but the reality of his new situation might have been less appealing to cope with once he arrived there. Who knows?

i didnt mean to say the band was at fault,jones brought it all on himself,but hearing jagger speak about his passing after 40 plus yrs. u can still hear the emotion he feels, and from a guy that rarely shows his feelings i just thought it was highlight of film

and yes if they had rehabs then as now who knows elvis, jim morrison and others might still be with us

True.

I read that members of Elvis' entourage tried to take him to rehab. He got as far as the steps of the place and then went back to the car.

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dgodkin
and yes if they had rehabs then as now who knows elvis, jim morrison and others might still be with us

but they did have rehabs back then and Lord knows, the psychiatric profession was alive & well!

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dgodkin
i didnt mean to say the band was at fault,jones brought it all on himself,but hearing jagger speak about his passing after 40 plus yrs. u can still hear the emotion he feels, and from a guy that rarely shows his feelings i just thought it was highlight of film

thanks for the note, will look forward to seeing it.

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stonehearted

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24FPS
I like to think that his final days ended in hope. He seemed to be pulling it together away from London and not out and about getting high on everything. He seemed at peace and was looking forward. Maybe he was delusional and would have fallen back into bad habits. It's not like the rock star life of the 70s would have encouraged better behavior. But I like to think he was trying to reach a better place.

He would have had to reach a modest place--in terms of living quarters, that is. He was already deep in debt at the time of his death--something like over £100,000, and it's likely that he would not be able to afford living on at Cotchford much longer as an ex-Rolling Stone. Losing the place he had so loved to acquire--that might have sent him down a spiral, who knows? Plus the challenge of adjusting to a smaller, less popular degree of success in a new band. He may have embraced the start of something new once he envisioned it, but the reality of his new situation might have been less appealing to cope with once he arrived there. Who knows?

Well, he would have had to get himself together first before attacking those other problems. Plus I think he'd expressed in the past an ambivalence with pop stardom (coupled with an insatiable thirst for it). Like I said, I prefer to think he ended on an up note. It was getting more and more unhealthy to be in the Stones. This was just the beginning of Keith's smack involvement.

It was best that Brian was released from the group when he was. Sort of a mixed blessing, but it would have been up to him to make something positive out of it. His death, and I don't believe he was murdered, or if he was, it was an accident, put a dark spin to Brian's mythology that colors everything we think about him. Just the way we would look at Keith differently if he'd ODed with bad teeth in 1972 like everyone was betting on.

Mick Taylor basically walked away a few years later to save his own life. It was up to Taylor to make a positive thing out of that departure and he was unable to.

The fact that psychiatry and some forms of rehab existed in the '60s doesn't mean they were regarded as good things.
In those days you'd just as soon try to have a friend imprisoned as attempt to force him/her to go into rehab -
it just wasn't done. It still isn't easy to do today, even with the huge array of support
that's available for users, their families and friends.

It's also vital to bear in mind that people didn't know anything about the risks of drug use.
It was an experimental time, and restrictions on substances were regarded as uptight punitive Establishment ugliness.

The Rolling Stones were young men in their early 20s, riding a wave of incredible velocity
that wasn't going to wait for them or come back again if they took a time-out from their careers.
Right: They didn't do very much to help a colleague who was floundering. They didn't have time, it wasn't their role,
they didn't know how, it was none of their business ... and did Brian want to be helped?
(He did check into one "posh" rehab place at one point, and checked out again almost immediately.)

I bet we all know people with problems that we feel powerless to help, or don't know how to help,
or don't have time to help. It's not our role. We have our own problems. The person doesn't want to be helped.
We shouldn't blame Keith and Mick for not figuring out an effective way to help someone 45 years ago.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-05-22 09:58 by with sssoul.

Agree. Can you imagine how many years Mick looked at junkie Keith and wondered when he was going to get his shit together? And of course Keith did nothing until he was faced with years of imprisonment. No, you cannot help people. And they don't care what they do to you while they work out their own problems. Brian, unfortunately for him, was the canary in the coal mine when it came to rock departures. We think of him as the first drug casualty, but it's not like he shot heroin in the deep end. He was a known asthmatic and may have had a breathing difficulty that was unrelated to drugs at all. But that doesn't sound romantic does it? BRIAN JONES - ROCK STAR DEAD FROM NOT BEING ABLE TO REACH HIS INHALER.

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24FPS
Mick Taylor basically walked away a few years later to save his own life. It was up to Taylor to make a positive thing out of that departure and he was unable to.

Yes, mainly because he was unable to display his extraordinary guitar skills without the counterparts of his ingenious bandmates in the Rolling Stones. If you listen to the live recordings especially from 1972 and 1973 it is not really Mick Taylor who shines but the entire band worked so perfectly together.

When I saw Mick Taylor in concert around 2002 he still had the same problem. A brilliant guitarist was playing virtually nowhere, and a rather lazy and uninterested band didn't help, really. I do hope that some of the old magic comes back now und the current tour that he is allowed to play more than the occasional song.

Brian Jones probably would have had the same problem had he lived. The recipe for the Rolling Stones' success basically was the band's - often very difficult - chemistry and not the achievements of the individual members.

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with sssoul
The fact that psychiatry and some forms of rehab existed in the '60s doesn't mean they were regarded as good things.
In those days you'd just as soon try to have a friend imprisoned as attempt to force him/her to go into rehab -
it just wasn't done. It still isn't easy to do today, even with the huge array of support
that's available for users, their families and friends.

It's also vital to bear in mind that people didn't know anything about the risks of drug use.
It was an experimental time, and restrictions on substances were regarded as uptight punitive Establishment ugliness.

The Rolling Stones were young men in their early 20s, riding a wave of incredible velocity
that wasn't going to wait for them or come back again if they took a time-out from their careers.
Right: They didn't do very much to help a colleague who was floundering. They didn't have time, it wasn't their role,
they didn't know how, it was none of their business ... and did Brian want to be helped?
(He did check into one "posh" rehab place at one point, and checked out again almost immediately.)

I bet we all know people with problems that we feel powerless to help, or don't know how to help,
or don't have time to help. It's not our role. We have our own problems. The person doesn't want to be helped.
We shouldn't blame Keith and Mick for not figuring out an effective way to help someone 45 years ago.

bottom line is the person really does need to recognize they have a problem & want to do something about it. nobody can do it for them. some of my best friends' parents were righteous alcoholics back in the 60s plus chain smokers & who knows what prescription drugs they took as well. was told many times (recently, too) i was their only friend who'd come over to their houses after school. some went to AA & got straightened out, some temporarily, some for life, one died of heart complications from his multiple addictions. there was effective help available then, if someone wanted it. but there are always people who just exascerbate problems, too.

The psychiatric report for his 1967 court appearance is a window in to the mind of a very @#$%& up individual. The focus is usually on the drugs, but going by some words by those with more inside information, addiction wise it was alcohol that was his true problem.

Given the mess of 1967 - 1969 I'm amazed that he managed to play some of the things he did.

Only idiots blame Mick and Keith for Brian's downfall. with sssoul's post covers things very well.

Anyway, there's no changing the past, his personality and lifestyle just seems to have been too extreme.

All said and done, Brian kick started The Rolling Stones and gave us some great musical moments.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2013-05-22 13:12 by His Majesty.

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sanQ
True.

I read that members of Elvis' entourage tried to take him to rehab. He got as far as the steps of the place and then went back to the car.

Oh, didn't know that Elvis' entourage even knew Brian let alone took him to rehab!

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stonehearted

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24FPS
I like to think that his final days ended in hope. He seemed to be pulling it together away from London and not out and about getting high on everything. He seemed at peace and was looking forward. Maybe he was delusional and would have fallen back into bad habits. It's not like the rock star life of the 70s would have encouraged better behavior. But I like to think he was trying to reach a better place.

He would have had to reach a modest place--in terms of living quarters, that is. He was already deep in debt at the time of his death--something like over £100,000, and it's likely that he would not be able to afford living on at Cotchford much longer as an ex-Rolling Stone. Losing the place he had so loved to acquire--that might have sent him down a spiral, who knows? Plus the challenge of adjusting to a smaller, less popular degree of success in a new band. He may have embraced the start of something new once he envisioned it, but the reality of his new situation might have been less appealing to cope with once he arrived there. Who knows?

But, he was ready to receive that initial 250,000 (pounds/dollars) which would have wiped out his debt plus he was to receive 100,000 yearly (I guess starting in 1970?), so if he played it smart, perhaps at least his money issues would have been solved. He would also have received money for future Stones record sales on records he played on and any new money he would receive for future projects. But you are right about being an ex-Stone and where that road would have taken him...

SANQ, I totally agree and I've said the same thing for years about Brian not being a decent human being. Tortured, addicted, all true but he did it to himself. I always resented those who put the blame on Mick & Keith. He must have been a handful and awful to be around. Keith did the right thing by " stealing Anita". Of course he paid for hooking up with that train wreck!
I am sure Mick has pangs of conscience because Brian did need help but I wonder if even the Betty Ford Clinic would have saved him.

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mickschix
Keith did the right thing by " stealing Anita". Of course he paid for hooking up with that train wreck!

You don't think to some degree that could possibly be the case with Brian as well?

As for Brian not being a decent human being, are you? Are the other Rolling Stones?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-05-22 18:04 by His Majesty.

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2000 LYFH

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sanQ
True.

I read that members of Elvis' entourage tried to take him to rehab. He got as far as the steps of the place and then went back to the car.

Oh, didn't know that Elvis' entourage even knew Brian let alone took him to rehab!

The Memphis Mafia never tried to help Elvis with conviction...they were befuddled by his addictions and by their own...

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2000 LYFH

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stonehearted

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24FPS
I like to think that his final days ended in hope. He seemed to be pulling it together away from London and not out and about getting high on everything. He seemed at peace and was looking forward. Maybe he was delusional and would have fallen back into bad habits. It's not like the rock star life of the 70s would have encouraged better behavior. But I like to think he was trying to reach a better place.

He would have had to reach a modest place--in terms of living quarters, that is. He was already deep in debt at the time of his death--something like over £100,000, and it's likely that he would not be able to afford living on at Cotchford much longer as an ex-Rolling Stone. Losing the place he had so loved to acquire--that might have sent him down a spiral, who knows? Plus the challenge of adjusting to a smaller, less popular degree of success in a new band. He may have embraced the start of something new once he envisioned it, but the reality of his new situation might have been less appealing to cope with once he arrived there. Who knows?

But, he was ready to receive that initial 250,000 (pounds/dollars) which would have wiped out his debt plus he was to receive 100,000 yearly (I guess starting in 1970?), so if he played it smart, perhaps at least his money issues would have been solved. He would also have received money for future Stones record sales on records he played on and any new money he would receive for future projects. But you are right about being an ex-Stone and where that road would have taken him...

Actually, I believe the initial sum of his payment agreement was to be somewhere around £100,000, with £20,000 thereafter paid annually. And with the ABKCO situation lasting into the 70s, he likely wouldn't have seen additional Stones royalties anytime soon.

I think he would have wound up like Mick Taylor--lots of promise and ambition that would have just withered on the vine. Plus further addictions as a result. And, like Taylor, Brian would likely have at some point been cut loose from any previous royalty agreements as well. Poverty, obscurity, addiction--he likely would have shown up after Mick Taylor left in '74, seeing about getting his old job back.

Chiming in with those pointing out that the late 60s were an extremely different time in terms of awareness and acceptance of addiction and alcoholism as well as other mental disorders. We have come very far as a society in terms of education and therapies and support. And yet the majority of addicts will still choose the addiction over getting help. And as pointed out, Mick, Keith, and the rest of them were essentially kids with their own issues.

Some people were born to self destruct. Brian just happened to be one of them.

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saltoftheearth

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24FPS
Mick Taylor basically walked away a few years later to save his own life. It was up to Taylor to make a positive thing out of that departure and he was unable to.

Yes, mainly because he was unable to display his extraordinary guitar skills without the counterparts of his ingenious bandmates in the Rolling Stones. If you listen to the live recordings especially from 1972 and 1973 it is not really Mick Taylor who shines but the entire band worked so perfectly together.

When I saw Mick Taylor in concert around 2002 he still had the same problem. A brilliant guitarist was playing virtually nowhere, and a rather lazy and uninterested band didn't help, really. I do hope that some of the old magic comes back now und the current tour that he is allowed to play more than the occasional song.

Brian Jones probably would have had the same problem had he lived. The recipe for the Rolling Stones' success basically was the band's - often very difficult - chemistry and not the achievements of the individual members.

Maybe Mick Jagger would disagree with that last sentence (solo career, etc.).



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-05-22 21:24 by nightskyman.

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2000 LYFH

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sanQ
True.

I read that members of Elvis' entourage tried to take him to rehab. He got as far as the steps of the place and then went back to the car.

Oh, didn't know that Elvis' entourage even knew Brian let alone took him to rehab!

Ha! Not Brian, Elvis I mean...

I don't believe this is accurate.
Had extensive conversation with two of Elvis's main men several years after his death.

At the time Brian was just such a douche. And a dick too. Hindsight is always 20/20.