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DandelionPowderman
There is no "bad" playing from Keith on A Bigger Bang.

Not much, but there is some. Listen carefully to Laugh, I Nearly Died. It's buried in the mix, but there are some awful stuff in there

Only song I really liked on ABB. I am just curious, (from a musicians perspective) does it kill your overall enjoyment of a song when you detect "awful stuff" buried in the mix?

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stonescrow

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DandelionPowderman
There is no "bad" playing from Keith on A Bigger Bang.

Not much, but there is some. Listen carefully to Laugh, I Nearly Died. It's buried in the mix, but there are some awful stuff in there

Only song I really liked on ABB. I am just curious, (from a musicians perspective) does it kill your overall enjoyment of a song when you detect "awful stuff" buried in the mix?

I hear nothing but great playing on ABB. keith plays very clean. How can he play like this in the studio and be such a mess sometimes live.

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71Tele

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stonescrow

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71Tele
We are clearly dealing with two separate issues here:
One is the art of rock 'n roll, particularly song-crafting. This is a young person's game. The fire that makes great rock songs seems to last until about age 30. Dylan said he had to learn to do consciously what he used to do unconsciously. That means the songs stopped flowing, man! There are stories of Dylan being in the back of a limo with sheets of paper, working on three songs at once. I am quite sure it was similar for young Lennon/McCartney, Townshend and Jagger/Richards. It is certainly possible to make compelling rock 'n roll after 30, but there invariably is more effort involved (see Blood On The Tracks, Some Girls, etc.)

A completely separate issue is physical playing ability. There is really no reason why age should make a great player's skills deteriorate. Dexterity lessens, but the better players substitute what they lose in dexterity with taste and inventiveness. In Keith's case I am afraid there is more going on. I think the drugs and alcohol have taken their toll. He was always more of a "feel" player than a flash player like Clapton or Beck (one thing I always liked about him). He has never relied on dexterity as much as the "classic" lead guitar players, but has had a razor-sharp sense of feel and timing. It seems to me that has suffered every bit as much as his manual dexterity. Much to my dismay.

Can you still enjoy the overall show despite the fact that you feel he is not what he once was?

Hmmm...do I still enjoy the show? yes - overall. Do I constantly notice how much Keith's playing and timing has deteriorated? Yes, I am afraid so. Not so bad at the Beacon, but at Qwest Field in Seattle on their last tour, pretty bad.

Just curious, do you feel his performance at Qwest in '06 was worse than his performance at Hyde Park in 1969?

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stonescrow

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71Tele

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stonescrow

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71Tele
We are clearly dealing with two separate issues here:
One is the art of rock 'n roll, particularly song-crafting. This is a young person's game. The fire that makes great rock songs seems to last until about age 30. Dylan said he had to learn to do consciously what he used to do unconsciously. That means the songs stopped flowing, man! There are stories of Dylan being in the back of a limo with sheets of paper, working on three songs at once. I am quite sure it was similar for young Lennon/McCartney, Townshend and Jagger/Richards. It is certainly possible to make compelling rock 'n roll after 30, but there invariably is more effort involved (see Blood On The Tracks, Some Girls, etc.)

A completely separate issue is physical playing ability. There is really no reason why age should make a great player's skills deteriorate. Dexterity lessens, but the better players substitute what they lose in dexterity with taste and inventiveness. In Keith's case I am afraid there is more going on. I think the drugs and alcohol have taken their toll. He was always more of a "feel" player than a flash player like Clapton or Beck (one thing I always liked about him). He has never relied on dexterity as much as the "classic" lead guitar players, but has had a razor-sharp sense of feel and timing. It seems to me that has suffered every bit as much as his manual dexterity. Much to my dismay.

Can you still enjoy the overall show despite the fact that you feel he is not what he once was?

Hmmm...do I still enjoy the show? yes - overall. Do I constantly notice how much Keith's playing and timing has deteriorated? Yes, I am afraid so. Not so bad at the Beacon, but at Qwest Field in Seattle on their last tour, pretty bad.

Just curious, do you feel his performance at Qwest in '06 was worse than his performance at Hyde Park in 1969?

Hyde Park was nerves, being out of tune and slow tempos. Keith's brilliance was very much intact. Qwest Field was just an exhausted band...Dave Mathews didn't help matters either.

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flilflam
I had a theory that many Stones fans were frustrated musicians who were in many ways envious of Keith's guitar virtuoso. Since I seem to have inadvertently offended everyone, I will not pursue that line of reasoning again.

I think we need to make a firm distinction between Keith's latter day STUDIO work versus the latter day LIVE CONCERT work. Since I have only attended five Stones concerts, I am not too concerned with his playing at concerts. I go to concerts to have a blast, not to obsess on every note he plays. I listen chiefly to the STUDIO work, because this is where I know I will get Keith at his very best. Listen to this song. Someone please tell me why the guitar work stinks, is unlistenable, or otherwise sucks. If you cannot tell me in words why this piece of music is terrible, then you probably do not know or are just going trolling.





I think the guitar work is jazzy, shows great rhythm, and is vintage Stones. The song is not my favorite but that is not the point. I am not a musician and do not know the difference between an Open G or an Open F or H. I just like the sound of this song and appreciate that Keith is doing much of the playing and wrote the song with Jagger. Not bad for a musician whom some think is brain dead from a fall from a tree or is so horribly crippled from arthritis that he has difficulty picking up a guitar pick. Not bad from a man who has been giving a large number of intelligent interviews lately and who just wrote a book.

Keith himself has openly stated he does not consider himself to be a guitar virtuoso. He has even taken it one step further and referred to himself as "lousy", at least on his own as an individual player. Of course one must consider the man's great humility in judging these statements as well as the context in which these statements were made, however, I think it would be safe to say that there are thousands of nameless guitar players out there that are technically better than Keith Richards. The difference is that none of them are Keith Richards! No matter how good they might be technically they will never (in ten lifetimes) come even remotely close to achieving what this one in a billion individual has achieved in just one lifetime, and it's not over yet! Envy? Jealousy? It is ludicrous to think that it doesn't lurk in the hearts of some, however, it is just as ludicrous to think we can know exactly what heart it is lurking in.

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stonescrow

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DandelionPowderman
There is no "bad" playing from Keith on A Bigger Bang.

Not much, but there is some. Listen carefully to Laugh, I Nearly Died. It's buried in the mix, but there are some awful stuff in there

Only song I really liked on ABB. I am just curious, (from a musicians perspective) does it kill your overall enjoyment of a song when you detect "awful stuff" buried in the mix?

Not at all, not at all! This is one of my favourites off the album as well. But it wouldn't have been hard for them to remove some of Keith's playing in there, instead of burying it in the mix. A couple of those licks could be a bit annoying, but heck, it's the Rolling Stones

KR has focused his guitar playing a pseudo-lead guitar with very poor penthatonic licks here and there , almost always oput of tune.
If you see the rehearsals of ABB (Oh Not you again, rough justice...), he does not play the rythm pattern, he just play lead fills here and there. And this is not the best of his guitar playing. He was so good until 10 years ago...........
I think the problem is multifactorial: Arthritis + Aging + Brain damage (traumatic) + brain damage ( certain chemical abuses/ hash smoking abuse)......
But i think that the main problem is not his fingers, is him. Sadly, but true.

Anyway he has very nice moments, like SWH on SAL film.

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The Greek

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#3 It's not his hands it's his brain.

HAVE YOU EVER SEEN HIS ARTRITIC FINGERS?(AS STUPID AS A COMMENT I HAVE EVER HEARD IN THESE PARTS!!!!!!)

Is that why he plays solos in the wrong key? Listen to the Ain't To Proud To Beg solo from AC 2006. Or the countless leads from SFTD. he has no clue what notes to play. And before you make such a STUPID comment yourself. You should of read the follow up.

did you ever consider that because of the arthritis keith is limited to what chords and notes that he can play?could that be the reason that he plays these notes and chords? as far as the memory loss goes did you consider the anti seizure medication that he had to take after the fall from the tree and the brian surgery?

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The Greek

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The Greek

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#3 It's not his hands it's his brain.

HAVE YOU EVER SEEN HIS ARTRITIC FINGERS?(AS STUPID AS A COMMENT I HAVE EVER HEARD IN THESE PARTS!!!!!!)

Is that why he plays solos in the wrong key? Listen to the Ain't To Proud To Beg solo from AC 2006. Or the countless leads from SFTD. he has no clue what notes to play. And before you make such a STUPID comment yourself. You should of read the follow up.

did you ever consider that because of the arthritis keith is limited to what chords and notes that he can play?could that be the reason that he plays these notes and chords? as far as the memory loss goes did you consider the anti seizure medication that he had to take after the fall from the tree and the brian surgery?

But if that is true, the question arises why such a sick man is on the stage in the first place at all? If he clearly is not able to carry on his profession? Or is it only sort of a freak show - "look, he is stil able to stand!"- people go to see? Where goes the line in professionwise to able to really perform? Is it really all just $$$$ that matters???

I don't want to be provocative. I think there is a serious issue here. I don't claim Keith has crossed the line but he has been very close of that.
- Doxa

P.S. I remember reading in LIFE that Keith sounds so proud that they are able to perform despite having a fever, vomiting etc - like they are kind of working class heroes to do anything for the audience to have a show no matter whatever it is like - it sounds almost like the audience should be grateful for ther generious attitude... I find that a bit odd attitude, like not really caring for the standard of their their performance, and thereby not really respecting their audience. One can ask what is the responsibility of the performers for the quality of the product. Since it is so strict business nowadays, the respect should go both ways.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2010-12-01 17:59 by Doxa.

ah, why should i bother, we'll see.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2010-12-01 17:58 by behroez.

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stonescrow

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flilflam
I had a theory that many Stones fans were frustrated musicians who were in many ways envious of Keith's guitar virtuoso. Since I seem to have inadvertently offended everyone, I will not pursue that line of reasoning again.

I think we need to make a firm distinction between Keith's latter day STUDIO work versus the latter day LIVE CONCERT work. Since I have only attended five Stones concerts, I am not too concerned with his playing at concerts. I go to concerts to have a blast, not to obsess on every note he plays. I listen chiefly to the STUDIO work, because this is where I know I will get Keith at his very best. Listen to this song. Someone please tell me why the guitar work stinks, is unlistenable, or otherwise sucks. If you cannot tell me in words why this piece of music is terrible, then you probably do not know or are just going trolling.





I think the guitar work is jazzy, shows great rhythm, and is vintage Stones. The song is not my favorite but that is not the point. I am not a musician and do not know the difference between an Open G or an Open F or H. I just like the sound of this song and appreciate that Keith is doing much of the playing and wrote the song with Jagger. Not bad for a musician whom some think is brain dead from a fall from a tree or is so horribly crippled from arthritis that he has difficulty picking up a guitar pick. Not bad from a man who has been giving a large number of intelligent interviews lately and who just wrote a book.

Keith himself has openly stated he does not consider himself to be a guitar virtuoso. He has even taken it one step further and referred to himself as "lousy", at least on his own as an individual player. Of course one must consider the man's great humility in judging these statements as well as the context in which these statements were made, however, I think it would be safe to say that there are thousands of nameless guitar players out there that are technically better than Keith Richards. The difference is that none of them are Keith Richards! No matter how good they might be technically they will never (in ten lifetimes) come even remotely close to achieving what this one in a billion individual has achieved in just one lifetime, and it's not over yet! Envy? Jealousy? It is ludicrous to think that it doesn't lurk in the hearts of some, however, it is just as ludicrous to think we can know exactly what heart it is lurking in.

That's a false argument. We are not comparing Keith to "virtuosos" - we already know he isn't that kind of player. We are comparing Keith to Keith.

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Doxa

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The Greek

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The Greek

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#3 It's not his hands it's his brain.

HAVE YOU EVER SEEN HIS ARTRITIC FINGERS?(AS STUPID AS A COMMENT I HAVE EVER HEARD IN THESE PARTS!!!!!!)

Is that why he plays solos in the wrong key? Listen to the Ain't To Proud To Beg solo from AC 2006. Or the countless leads from SFTD. he has no clue what notes to play. And before you make such a STUPID comment yourself. You should of read the follow up.

did you ever consider that because of the arthritis keith is limited to what chords and notes that he can play?could that be the reason that he plays these notes and chords? as far as the memory loss goes did you consider the anti seizure medication that he had to take after the fall from the tree and the brian surgery?

But if that is true, the question arises why such a sick man is on the stage in the first place at all? If he clearly is not able to carry on his profession? Or is it only sort of a freak show - "look, he is stil able to stand!"- people go to see? Where goes the line in professionwise to able to really perform? Is it really all just $$$$ that matters???

I don't want to be provocative. I think there is a serious issue here. I don't claim Keith has crossed the line but he has been very close of that.
- Doxa

P.S. I remember reading in LIFE that Keith sounds so proud that they are able to perform despite having a fever, vomiting etc - like they are kind of working class heroes to do anything for the audience to have a show no matter whatever it is like - it sounds almost like the audience should be grateful for ther generious attitude... I find that a bit odd attitude, like not really caring for the standard of their their performance, and thereby not really respecting their audience. One can ask what is the responsibility of the performers for the quality of the product. Since it is so strict business nowadays, the respect should go both ways.

good post Doxa, i want to comment about there working class status. as a stones concert goer since 1981 ,i do appreciate there ability to get the job done and honor there commitiments to the concert ticket buying fans ,Doxa only once did the glimmers pull the no show it was in atlantic city 10/27/06.we drove 5 hours from new york to check into our hotel on the boardwalk at 5:30 friday evening to be told sorry no show ( because mick was saving the voice for the beacon two nights later 10/29/06,which as luck had it when we were leaving the next day to head back home to new york we got a call that saturday afternoon that we were able to get in to the first night at the beacon)so for that issue i do really appreciate there ability to deliver the goods .it's one thing for a show to get killed at the last second in your neck of the woods but when you go to the expense of travel and hotel ,it costs you out of the pocket so to speak and speaking of atlantic city which did get rescheduled ,i would have went back in november but it was not my choice .i guess what i am saying is i REALLY LOVE THE STONES !!!!!

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The Greek

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Doxa

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The Greek

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The Greek

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#3 It's not his hands it's his brain.

HAVE YOU EVER SEEN HIS ARTRITIC FINGERS?(AS STUPID AS A COMMENT I HAVE EVER HEARD IN THESE PARTS!!!!!!)

Is that why he plays solos in the wrong key? Listen to the Ain't To Proud To Beg solo from AC 2006. Or the countless leads from SFTD. he has no clue what notes to play. And before you make such a STUPID comment yourself. You should of read the follow up.

did you ever consider that because of the arthritis keith is limited to what chords and notes that he can play?could that be the reason that he plays these notes and chords? as far as the memory loss goes did you consider the anti seizure medication that he had to take after the fall from the tree and the brian surgery?

But if that is true, the question arises why such a sick man is on the stage in the first place at all? If he clearly is not able to carry on his profession? Or is it only sort of a freak show - "look, he is stil able to stand!"- people go to see? Where goes the line in professionwise to able to really perform? Is it really all just $$$$ that matters???

I don't want to be provocative. I think there is a serious issue here. I don't claim Keith has crossed the line but he has been very close of that.
- Doxa

P.S. I remember reading in LIFE that Keith sounds so proud that they are able to perform despite having a fever, vomiting etc - like they are kind of working class heroes to do anything for the audience to have a show no matter whatever it is like - it sounds almost like the audience should be grateful for ther generious attitude... I find that a bit odd attitude, like not really caring for the standard of their their performance, and thereby not really respecting their audience. One can ask what is the responsibility of the performers for the quality of the product. Since it is so strict business nowadays, the respect should go both ways.

good post Doxa, i want to comment about there working class status. as a stones concert goer since 1981 ,i do appreciate there ability to get the job done and honor there commitiments to the concert ticket buying fans ,Doxa only once did the glimmers pull the no show it was in atlantic city 10/27/06.we drove 5 hours from new york to check into our hotel on the boardwalk at 5:30 friday evening to be told sorry no show ( because mick was saving the voice for the beacon two nights later 10/29/06,which as luck had it when we were leaving the next day to head back home to new york we got a call that saturday afternoon that we were able to get in to the first night at the beacon)so for that issue i do really appreciate there ability to deliver the goods .it's one thing for a show to get killed at the last second in your neck of the woods but when you go to the expense of travel and hotel ,it costs you out of the pocket so to speak and speaking of atlantic city which did get rescheduled ,i would have went back in november but it was not my choice .i guess what i am saying is i REALLY LOVE THE STONES !!!!!

hey tg: that wasn't a "i really love the stones" post....i got more of a "i love the stones but they can sure make me wanna strangle them sometimes" vibe from it....

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StonesTod

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The Greek

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Doxa

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The Greek

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The Greek

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#3 It's not his hands it's his brain.

HAVE YOU EVER SEEN HIS ARTRITIC FINGERS?(AS STUPID AS A COMMENT I HAVE EVER HEARD IN THESE PARTS!!!!!!)

Is that why he plays solos in the wrong key? Listen to the Ain't To Proud To Beg solo from AC 2006. Or the countless leads from SFTD. he has no clue what notes to play. And before you make such a STUPID comment yourself. You should of read the follow up.

did you ever consider that because of the arthritis keith is limited to what chords and notes that he can play?could that be the reason that he plays these notes and chords? as far as the memory loss goes did you consider the anti seizure medication that he had to take after the fall from the tree and the brian surgery?

But if that is true, the question arises why such a sick man is on the stage in the first place at all? If he clearly is not able to carry on his profession? Or is it only sort of a freak show - "look, he is stil able to stand!"- people go to see? Where goes the line in professionwise to able to really perform? Is it really all just $$$$ that matters???

I don't want to be provocative. I think there is a serious issue here. I don't claim Keith has crossed the line but he has been very close of that.
- Doxa

P.S. I remember reading in LIFE that Keith sounds so proud that they are able to perform despite having a fever, vomiting etc - like they are kind of working class heroes to do anything for the audience to have a show no matter whatever it is like - it sounds almost like the audience should be grateful for ther generious attitude... I find that a bit odd attitude, like not really caring for the standard of their their performance, and thereby not really respecting their audience. One can ask what is the responsibility of the performers for the quality of the product. Since it is so strict business nowadays, the respect should go both ways.

good post Doxa, i want to comment about there working class status. as a stones concert goer since 1981 ,i do appreciate there ability to get the job done and honor there commitiments to the concert ticket buying fans ,Doxa only once did the glimmers pull the no show it was in atlantic city 10/27/06.we drove 5 hours from new york to check into our hotel on the boardwalk at 5:30 friday evening to be told sorry no show ( because mick was saving the voice for the beacon two nights later 10/29/06,which as luck had it when we were leaving the next day to head back home to new york we got a call that saturday afternoon that we were able to get in to the first night at the beacon)so for that issue i do really appreciate there ability to deliver the goods .it's one thing for a show to get killed at the last second in your neck of the woods but when you go to the expense of travel and hotel ,it costs you out of the pocket so to speak and speaking of atlantic city which did get rescheduled ,i would have went back in november but it was not my choice .i guess what i am saying is i REALLY LOVE THE STONES !!!!!

hey tg: that wasn't a "i really love the stones" post....i got more of a "i love the stones but they can sure make me wanna strangle them sometimes" vibe from it....

i am smiling right now because you know me too well.

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71Tele

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stonescrow

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flilflam
I had a theory that many Stones fans were frustrated musicians who were in many ways envious of Keith's guitar virtuoso. Since I seem to have inadvertently offended everyone, I will not pursue that line of reasoning again.

I think we need to make a firm distinction between Keith's latter day STUDIO work versus the latter day LIVE CONCERT work. Since I have only attended five Stones concerts, I am not too concerned with his playing at concerts. I go to concerts to have a blast, not to obsess on every note he plays. I listen chiefly to the STUDIO work, because this is where I know I will get Keith at his very best. Listen to this song. Someone please tell me why the guitar work stinks, is unlistenable, or otherwise sucks. If you cannot tell me in words why this piece of music is terrible, then you probably do not know or are just going trolling.





I think the guitar work is jazzy, shows great rhythm, and is vintage Stones. The song is not my favorite but that is not the point. I am not a musician and do not know the difference between an Open G or an Open F or H. I just like the sound of this song and appreciate that Keith is doing much of the playing and wrote the song with Jagger. Not bad for a musician whom some think is brain dead from a fall from a tree or is so horribly crippled from arthritis that he has difficulty picking up a guitar pick. Not bad from a man who has been giving a large number of intelligent interviews lately and who just wrote a book.

Keith himself has openly stated he does not consider himself to be a guitar virtuoso. He has even taken it one step further and referred to himself as "lousy", at least on his own as an individual player. Of course one must consider the man's great humility in judging these statements as well as the context in which these statements were made, however, I think it would be safe to say that there are thousands of nameless guitar players out there that are technically better than Keith Richards. The difference is that none of them are Keith Richards! No matter how good they might be technically they will never (in ten lifetimes) come even remotely close to achieving what this one in a billion individual has achieved in just one lifetime, and it's not over yet! Envy? Jealousy? It is ludicrous to think that it doesn't lurk in the hearts of some, however, it is just as ludicrous to think we can know exactly what heart it is lurking in.

That's a false argument. We are not comparing Keith to "virtuosos" - we already know he isn't that kind of player. We are comparing Keith to Keith.

False argument? The person (flilflam) I was addressing here stated he had a theory that many Stones fans were frustrated musicians who in many ways were envious of Keith's guitar virtuoso, his word. My response to him had nothing to do with you, or others, comparing Keith to Keith.

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DandelionPowderman

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stonescrow

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DandelionPowderman
There is no "bad" playing from Keith on A Bigger Bang.

Not much, but there is some. Listen carefully to Laugh, I Nearly Died. It's buried in the mix, but there are some awful stuff in there

Only song I really liked on ABB. I am just curious, (from a musicians perspective) does it kill your overall enjoyment of a song when you detect "awful stuff" buried in the mix?

Not at all, not at all! This is one of my favourites off the album as well. But it wouldn't have been hard for them to remove some of Keith's playing in there, instead of burying it in the mix. A couple of those licks could be a bit annoying, but heck, it's the Rolling Stones

I am glad to hear that you can overlook some of Keith's flaws and still enjoy the music. For me (as a non musician) I gauge a musician's greatness not in terms of technical ability (not that I would know it) but rather by the amount of joy they can deliver to the pit of my soul. Keith may not be the greatest guitar player the world has ever known but he is definitely one of rock 'n roll's all time greatest joy givers.

Does anyone really think his playing was bad before the head surgery? I saw him in Little Rock, AR not long before the accident and it was the best I'd ever seen live. Fantastic show, and Keith was spot on. The next show was Louisville KY after the accident, and Keith just wasn't all there. I don't mean like brain damaged or anything. I mean like tired and slow, like maybe he'd been through a major head injury and surgery in the past few months. It really takes a long time to come back from those things. I speak from personal experience. And yes, She Was Hot was good on SAL, but not as good as Keith from the previous year. The guy had also just kicked a 40 year coke habit. I'd say that could also explain some of his sluggish actions and less than perfect timing. I have never thought the hands were a factor at all. They've looked like that for many years now, and I didn't hear any bad playing on the No Security Tour. They probably should have cancelled the rest of the Bigger Bang Tour in all reality, but to do so would have shown a weakness in a group of guys who have spent their whole professional publicly laughing off weaknesses, and the tour set new attendance records, so they did it. Were they in top form? No. Did anyone notice besides people like us? Very few. All my friends who were at the Louisville show separate from me told me later what a great show it was, and how brilliant Keith was. I didn't argue. He wanted to get back on the road, so he did. Who knows, if he hadn't been working, he might've been bored to death at home pacing the floor, and done himself a little bump and died. I hate watching the youtube videos of some of the worse European 2007 shows, but it's what Keith wanted, apparently.

[www.non-filters.com]

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stonescrow

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DandelionPowderman

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stonescrow

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DandelionPowderman
There is no "bad" playing from Keith on A Bigger Bang.

Not much, but there is some. Listen carefully to Laugh, I Nearly Died. It's buried in the mix, but there are some awful stuff in there

Only song I really liked on ABB. I am just curious, (from a musicians perspective) does it kill your overall enjoyment of a song when you detect "awful stuff" buried in the mix?

Not at all, not at all! This is one of my favourites off the album as well. But it wouldn't have been hard for them to remove some of Keith's playing in there, instead of burying it in the mix. A couple of those licks could be a bit annoying, but heck, it's the Rolling Stones

I am glad to hear that you can overlook some of Keith's flaws and still enjoy the music. For me (as a non musician) I gauge a musician's greatness not in terms of technical ability (not that I would know it) but rather by the amount of joy they can deliver to the pit of my soul. Keith may not be the greatest guitar player the world has ever known but he is definitely one of rock 'n roll's all time greatest joy givers.

YES, YES and Yes!!! 100 % true.
One of the best if not the best post in this thread.
It's not the technical skills that count alone, it's the way you present your music; with heart and soul and nobody can deny that Keith does this in his very unique way and that's why we love the man.
There's no muscian on earth who can play a song twice 100% identically, so why bother.

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Roadster32

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stonescrow

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DandelionPowderman

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stonescrow

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DandelionPowderman
There is no "bad" playing from Keith on A Bigger Bang.

Not much, but there is some. Listen carefully to Laugh, I Nearly Died. It's buried in the mix, but there are some awful stuff in there

Only song I really liked on ABB. I am just curious, (from a musicians perspective) does it kill your overall enjoyment of a song when you detect "awful stuff" buried in the mix?

Not at all, not at all! This is one of my favourites off the album as well. But it wouldn't have been hard for them to remove some of Keith's playing in there, instead of burying it in the mix. A couple of those licks could be a bit annoying, but heck, it's the Rolling Stones

I am glad to hear that you can overlook some of Keith's flaws and still enjoy the music. For me (as a non musician) I gauge a musician's greatness not in terms of technical ability (not that I would know it) but rather by the amount of joy they can deliver to the pit of my soul. Keith may not be the greatest guitar player the world has ever known but he is definitely one of rock 'n roll's all time greatest joy givers.

YES, YES and Yes!!! 100 % true.
One of the best if not the best post in this thread.
It's not the technical skills that count alone, it's the way you present your music; with heart and soul and nobody can deny that Keith does this in his very unique way and that's why we love the man.
There's no muscian on earth who can play a song twice 100% identically, so why bother.

Thanks for the kind words and for your valuable input. It is amazing what we can accomplish from our discussions by applying principles from the ancient art of weaving!

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nonfilter
Does anyone really think his playing was bad before the head surgery? I saw him in Little Rock, AR not long before the accident and it was the best I'd ever seen live. Fantastic show, and Keith was spot on. The next show was Louisville KY after the accident, and Keith just wasn't all there. I don't mean like brain damaged or anything. I mean like tired and slow, like maybe he'd been through a major head injury and surgery in the past few months. It really takes a long time to come back from those things. I speak from personal experience. And yes, She Was Hot was good on SAL, but not as good as Keith from the previous year. The guy had also just kicked a 40 year coke habit. I'd say that could also explain some of his sluggish actions and less than perfect timing. I have never thought the hands were a factor at all. They've looked like that for many years now, and I didn't hear any bad playing on the No Security Tour. They probably should have cancelled the rest of the Bigger Bang Tour in all reality, but to do so would have shown a weakness in a group of guys who have spent their whole professional publicly laughing off weaknesses, and the tour set new attendance records, so they did it. Were they in top form? No. Did anyone notice besides people like us? Very few. All my friends who were at the Louisville show separate from me told me later what a great show it was, and how brilliant Keith was. I didn't argue. He wanted to get back on the road, so he did. Who knows, if he hadn't been working, he might've been bored to death at home pacing the floor, and done himself a little bump and died. I hate watching the youtube videos of some of the worse European 2007 shows, but it's what Keith wanted, apparently.

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Just a hunch, but something tells me we are going to see a much better Keith Richards for the next tour.

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stonescrow

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71Tele

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stonescrow

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flilflam
I had a theory that many Stones fans were frustrated musicians who were in many ways envious of Keith's guitar virtuoso. Since I seem to have inadvertently offended everyone, I will not pursue that line of reasoning again.

I think we need to make a firm distinction between Keith's latter day STUDIO work versus the latter day LIVE CONCERT work. Since I have only attended five Stones concerts, I am not too concerned with his playing at concerts. I go to concerts to have a blast, not to obsess on every note he plays. I listen chiefly to the STUDIO work, because this is where I know I will get Keith at his very best. Listen to this song. Someone please tell me why the guitar work stinks, is unlistenable, or otherwise sucks. If you cannot tell me in words why this piece of music is terrible, then you probably do not know or are just going trolling.





I think the guitar work is jazzy, shows great rhythm, and is vintage Stones. The song is not my favorite but that is not the point. I am not a musician and do not know the difference between an Open G or an Open F or H. I just like the sound of this song and appreciate that Keith is doing much of the playing and wrote the song with Jagger. Not bad for a musician whom some think is brain dead from a fall from a tree or is so horribly crippled from arthritis that he has difficulty picking up a guitar pick. Not bad from a man who has been giving a large number of intelligent interviews lately and who just wrote a book.

Keith himself has openly stated he does not consider himself to be a guitar virtuoso. He has even taken it one step further and referred to himself as "lousy", at least on his own as an individual player. Of course one must consider the man's great humility in judging these statements as well as the context in which these statements were made, however, I think it would be safe to say that there are thousands of nameless guitar players out there that are technically better than Keith Richards. The difference is that none of them are Keith Richards! No matter how good they might be technically they will never (in ten lifetimes) come even remotely close to achieving what this one in a billion individual has achieved in just one lifetime, and it's not over yet! Envy? Jealousy? It is ludicrous to think that it doesn't lurk in the hearts of some, however, it is just as ludicrous to think we can know exactly what heart it is lurking in.

That's a false argument. We are not comparing Keith to "virtuosos" - we already know he isn't that kind of player. We are comparing Keith to Keith.

False argument? The person (flilflam) I was addressing here stated he had a theory that many Stones fans were frustrated musicians who in many ways were envious of Keith's guitar virtuoso, his word. My response to him had nothing to do with you, or others, comparing Keith to Keith.

OK, sorry if you were addressing someone else's point. But the main points in the original post are all about Keith and his decline, arthritis, etc. The argument about "Keith bashers" being frustrated musicians was in another thread, so had me confused, which seems to happen easier and easier these days...

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71Tele

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stonescrow

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71Tele

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stonescrow

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flilflam
I had a theory that many Stones fans were frustrated musicians who were in many ways envious of Keith's guitar virtuoso. Since I seem to have inadvertently offended everyone, I will not pursue that line of reasoning again.

I think we need to make a firm distinction between Keith's latter day STUDIO work versus the latter day LIVE CONCERT work. Since I have only attended five Stones concerts, I am not too concerned with his playing at concerts. I go to concerts to have a blast, not to obsess on every note he plays. I listen chiefly to the STUDIO work, because this is where I know I will get Keith at his very best. Listen to this song. Someone please tell me why the guitar work stinks, is unlistenable, or otherwise sucks. If you cannot tell me in words why this piece of music is terrible, then you probably do not know or are just going trolling.





I think the guitar work is jazzy, shows great rhythm, and is vintage Stones. The song is not my favorite but that is not the point. I am not a musician and do not know the difference between an Open G or an Open F or H. I just like the sound of this song and appreciate that Keith is doing much of the playing and wrote the song with Jagger. Not bad for a musician whom some think is brain dead from a fall from a tree or is so horribly crippled from arthritis that he has difficulty picking up a guitar pick. Not bad from a man who has been giving a large number of intelligent interviews lately and who just wrote a book.

Keith himself has openly stated he does not consider himself to be a guitar virtuoso. He has even taken it one step further and referred to himself as "lousy", at least on his own as an individual player. Of course one must consider the man's great humility in judging these statements as well as the context in which these statements were made, however, I think it would be safe to say that there are thousands of nameless guitar players out there that are technically better than Keith Richards. The difference is that none of them are Keith Richards! No matter how good they might be technically they will never (in ten lifetimes) come even remotely close to achieving what this one in a billion individual has achieved in just one lifetime, and it's not over yet! Envy? Jealousy? It is ludicrous to think that it doesn't lurk in the hearts of some, however, it is just as ludicrous to think we can know exactly what heart it is lurking in.

That's a false argument. We are not comparing Keith to "virtuosos" - we already know he isn't that kind of player. We are comparing Keith to Keith.

False argument? The person (flilflam) I was addressing here stated he had a theory that many Stones fans were frustrated musicians who in many ways were envious of Keith's guitar virtuoso, his word. My response to him had nothing to do with you, or others, comparing Keith to Keith.

OK, sorry if you were addressing someone else's point. But the main points in the original post are all about Keith and his decline, arthritis, etc. The argument about "Keith bashers" being frustrated musicians was in another thread, so had me confused, which seems to happen easier and easier these days...

No problem and thanks for participating in this most fascinating discussion. Your opinions are very much appreciated.