Tell Me :
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So what is funny about this ? Not that it's sad either, but I can't see anything funny in it.
Spoken like a true fan, Tom.
My dream for Aretha is to sit her ass at a piano in a studio with Rick Rubin at the helm, and backed by some good musicians.
You ask the same question I've been asking myself forever...Mavis, Bettye....these women are still relevant in their latter-day recordings.
Why not Aretha?
Several things:
1. Laziness and complacency. SOmetime in the mid-70s, Aretha started to surround herself with ass-kissers, syncophants (or people started to worm their way into the Queen's inner sanctum)
Once she claimed that Queen of Soul title, bought into the press reverence etc...she seemed to stop creating. Like Elvis and his Memphis Mafia, these people seemed suck the creative spirit out of her. She was no victim here, she did it to herself, but I don't think she has had a real artistic muse since then.
2. Arista. Once she left Atlantic, Aretha left her roots. It all changed once Clive Davis got hold of her.
Jerry Wexler revered Aretha as an artist and he pushed her artistically by surrounding her with musicians that would meet those standards and challenged her and she them. It was a beautiful synergy. Drummer Roger Hawkins said that they fed off her energy and it made them push themselves.
Davis reveres Aretha as a Diva. Aretha was always more than that. She might have become a Diva and that's the persona we have of her now, thanks to Snickers and her own Diva behavior.
With Wexler, she wasn't some Queen walking into a studio once the band had done all the hard work to sing in front of a mic and then leave for the producers to manufacture soul music.
Back in the day, in Muscle Shoals, at Atlantic and in the studio, Aretha was all about getting down to the business of laying down a groove and pouring every ounce of herself into her music.
She was a musician's musician, a song-writer, arranger. Aretha was a badass in the studio 67-73, sitting at the piano, working with the band, chain-smoking, throwing down....
At Arista, Davis indulged Aretha's ego, surrounded her with bland studio musicians and chose songs for her written by other people. He treated her like a Queen and she become lazy and lost that genius.
My neice was so proud when she introduced me to Sharon Jones. Jones' music is a direct descendent of that Muscle Shoals' sound crystalized by Aretha and the Swampers from 67-69. WHen I mentioned that Jones reminded me of vintage Aretha, she made a joke about Snickers. At it occured to me that my niece, like most of her generations and a few previous generations, have no idea that Aretha is Aretha. Because she hasn't been relevant in decades.
Sad. She also suffers from that same thing the Stones suffer from to an extent. They're too big, too acclaimed, too spoiled by their riches and reputation to be deemed cool by generations of Internet-fueled hipsterish music listeners.
Mavis, Betteye - they have a backstory that hipsters love - the underappreciated genius getting their due etc...
Aretha, like the Stones, is too .....famous and acclaimed.
I love Mavis and Betteye, but they ain't got nothin on the Queen, when she ruled from her real throne, her piano.
This might be the last, soulful thing Aretha has ever done: just sitting at the piano trying out a new song she wrote recorded as demo sometime in the mid70s.
Another demo with the Muscle Shoals guys:
Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 2012-01-25 01:22 by stupidguy2.
I think the "funny" part has to do with Aretha, just recently, announcing her wedding plans, and now, a couple of weeks later, calls them off.
As much as I like Dan Penn, I don't think he's capable of making a great Aretha record anymore. The album he did with Wilson Pickett ten or so years ago was just a faint echo of the glory days. Sometimes you just can't go home again.
The last two albums that Al Green cut with Willie Mitchell were also big let-downs. But "Lay It Down," produced by Ahmir "Questlove" Thompson (of The Roots ) and James Poyser, was an excellent return to form.
She should give the "Hip Hop" musicians a chance...
From your fingertips to God's ear, or someone in charge of these things.
Great post.
This is exactly what Aretha needs. She's still Aretha, the woman that sat down and threw down with abandon. Can she go home again?
She's shot her vocal chords to hell from all those years of pushing it to and beyond its limits. So she has lost some of the power in her range.
I actually liked "A Rose is a Rose" produced by Lauren Hill, i'd forgotten about that one.
It would take a Rubin, I think Burnett is too nice, polite. You are correct, she would need someone who would kick her ass, have some authority, like the argument some have made in regard to the Stones and Don Was.
I also think she needs youth in a backup band. I was thinking something similar to what the Drive-By Truckers did with Bettye Levette.
The real question is would Aretha let it happen. You made a great analogy with Elvis in Memphis.....
Like Aretha, Elvis had let his persona, fame overshadow and consume his identity. While in Aretha's case, its not as extreme in that she doesn't seem as isolated and vulnerable as Elvis, but its not that different.
To be fair, the woman has had misery: never knew her mother, her father was murdered, her three siblings gone...
But that can be a perfect storm of pent-up emotion just waiting to be unleashed. It seems like she's just retreated.
My ultimate dream hookup would be Aretha reuniting with Penn and the Muscle Shoals guys, but they're not in the best shape musically either.
Can you imagine the Black Keys backing Aretha on piano on a collection of new songs?
Priceless.
Problem is, I suspect people are slightly intimidated by Aretha...
BTW,
'Rick Rubin made Neil Diamond hip again after years of spangly diamond encrusted matronal muzak.'
Perfect.
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2012-01-26 03:20 by stupidguy2.
Exactly what I thought...
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2012-01-26 12:35 by leteyer.
I think that's the bigger question: does Aretha have it in her to have a 'comeback'?
Problem is, I don't think Aretha thinks she's gone anywhere....
She seems perfectly content with the loungy supper-club live venues, the generic 'love songs' produced by rote.
One of the ironies about Aretha is that, as one of the most visceral live performers and raw voices, there is very little quality live material available. You mentioned how you turned off the TV once Respect began a latter-day concert. That song has never matched the original's groove. The live versions of those classic songs always sounded like the opening theme to Johnny Carson:
Ladies and Gentlmen.... etc...
In 67, Aretha's loser husband at the time, Ted White, hand-picked her live band to go on tour to capitalize on the success of I Never Loved a Man...
But the band was horrible, playing the songs too fast and you can see that in those clips: Aretha seems to be trying to keep a groove, but she just didn't have the same chemistry that she had had with the Muscle Shoals musicians, who never toured - unlike Stax and Booker T and MGs, the Swampers were strictly a studio band. Too bad, because those songs have never sounded as good live without them.
The only exceptions were the Filmore West shows: great band chosen by Wexler and King Curtis. ANd of course the gospel album, Montreux 71....
Other than that, its been Vegas Aretha. The greatest female vocalist of this century cannot break out of her own bad choices and indulgences.
If you haven't yet and if you get a chance, read Matt Dobkin's book, I Never Loved a Man, a detailed account of the recording of that album. Dobkin interviewed most of the Muscle Shoals musicians and even White. It gives you a great insight into those sessions. The most interesting thing is that Aretha was far from a diva then. She was described by Roger Hawkins, Jimmy Johnson, Spooner Oldham etc...as kind of shy, but very professional, collaborative and respectful in the studio. No dramas, no tantrums - just a great, young artist at the moment self-discovery. It's excellent. My theory is that with these guys, and later, Cornell Dupree, Chuck Rainey in the 70s, she was in her element, with great musicians she could create sparks with.
Her work with Mayfield was substantial, but by that time, it seemed like Aretha had lost much of the urgency of the Atlantic days.....
This a demo of the original version of Never Loved a Man...for most artist, this would have been the take. For Aretha, it was just the idea of the song.
Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 2012-01-27 01:10 by stupidguy2.
Aretha always had the raw power in her voice....Im nitpicking about the band, arrangement etc...
That is correct about Wexler and Aretha's piano.
That was a major part of it because it empowered her. But it was also more than that. Aretha had played on many of her Columbia recordings, but the backdrop was different, more formal. At Columbia, she was doing the "next Billie Holliday' gig, which is how they perceived her, Good recordings, but very much mandated by the record company expectations etc. She was being backed by great pros, but they were older, more jazz-based, and in Wexler's view, slightly jaded New York session guys.
He had worked with the Muscle Shoals on sessions with Wilson Pickett and recognized a hungrier, mostly younger bunch. That was true, but a huge factor in pre-Atlantic Aretha was the fact that the Muscle Shoals musicians, all white Alabama guys, were rooted in the same Southern Baptist, Pentecostal church that most southerners - black and white - came from. Unlike with the New York jazz guys at Columbia, Aretha's natural gospel-based musical instincts were not foreign to them.... they understood it and that came out in the music, the feel in those recordings.
In essence, Detroit-bred, but Memphis-born Aretha musically connected with these Southern musicians and that liberated her musically. Wexler recognized this....She had a great synergy with the band and ended up taking them back to New York's Atlantic Studios where they remained her official house band until 1970.
It's one of the best stories in Rock and Roll: The Queen of Soul didn't become the Queen until she threw down with, in Wexler's words, Alabama country boys.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2012-01-27 23:28 by stupidguy2.
Don't bother. Not much to it. Doesn't really explore her art. Probably the most shallow offering of the entire series.
Talk about your favorite band.
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Aretha Franklin calls off her wedding, lol
Posted by:
steel driving hammer
()
Date: January 24, 2012 13:48
NEW YORK (AP) — Aretha Franklin won't be getting fitted for a wedding gown after all: She's called off her engagement.
A statement released Monday by her representative said Franklin's wedding to Willie Wilkerson wasn't going to happen.
"Will and I have decided we were moving a little too fast, and there were a number of things that had not been thought through thoroughly. There will be no wedding at this time," Franklin said. "We will not comment on it any further because of the very personal and sensitive nature of it. We appreciate all of the many well wishes from friends."
Franklin, 69, announced shortly after New Year's Day that she was getting married. In an interview with The Associated Press, the jovial Queen of Soul talked about getting fitted for gowns by designers including Vera Wang and Donna Karan, and said she hoped for a summer wedding in either Miami or the Hamptons on Long Island, N.Y.
Franklin said Wilkerson was the one for her and that the relationship was particularly strong because they had been friends first.
"We're very compatible, and he supports me and I support him a lot, and he has given me specialized attention that I don't think I've received from anyone else," she said.
It's unclear if the pair are still romantically involved.
A statement released Monday by her representative said Franklin's wedding to Willie Wilkerson wasn't going to happen.
"Will and I have decided we were moving a little too fast, and there were a number of things that had not been thought through thoroughly. There will be no wedding at this time," Franklin said. "We will not comment on it any further because of the very personal and sensitive nature of it. We appreciate all of the many well wishes from friends."
Franklin, 69, announced shortly after New Year's Day that she was getting married. In an interview with The Associated Press, the jovial Queen of Soul talked about getting fitted for gowns by designers including Vera Wang and Donna Karan, and said she hoped for a summer wedding in either Miami or the Hamptons on Long Island, N.Y.
Franklin said Wilkerson was the one for her and that the relationship was particularly strong because they had been friends first.
"We're very compatible, and he supports me and I support him a lot, and he has given me specialized attention that I don't think I've received from anyone else," she said.
It's unclear if the pair are still romantically involved.
Re: Aretha Franklin calls off her wedding, lol
Posted by:
GumbootCloggeroo
()
Date: January 24, 2012 17:15
why is that funny?
Re: Aretha Franklin calls off her wedding, lol
Posted by:
tomcasagranda
()
Date: January 24, 2012 17:18
He gives me "specialized attention"; you mean he gives her R E S P E C T.
Re: Aretha Franklin calls off her wedding, lol
Posted by:
tomcasagranda
()
Date: January 24, 2012 17:27
Another thing.
If he gives her specialized attention, perhaps he could tell her to stop releasing godawful garbage as her recent albums are.
Can he tell her to get back down to Muscle Shaols, or to get Dan Penn and the boys back on a new album, where she would make a high quality deep soul album. Hip hop musicians do not a good Aretha album make.
Why can't Aretha make albums of the same quality as Solomon Burke's before he passed? Or even the current albums done by Mavis Staples, Candi Staton, or Bettye Lavette ? Her output has been shabby since about 1984, and, prior to that, he last few Atlantic albums were awful too. Someone needs to give her some attention in the recording studio, methinks.
If he gives her specialized attention, perhaps he could tell her to stop releasing godawful garbage as her recent albums are.
Can he tell her to get back down to Muscle Shaols, or to get Dan Penn and the boys back on a new album, where she would make a high quality deep soul album. Hip hop musicians do not a good Aretha album make.
Why can't Aretha make albums of the same quality as Solomon Burke's before he passed? Or even the current albums done by Mavis Staples, Candi Staton, or Bettye Lavette ? Her output has been shabby since about 1984, and, prior to that, he last few Atlantic albums were awful too. Someone needs to give her some attention in the recording studio, methinks.
Re: Aretha Franklin calls off her wedding, lol
Posted by:
GumbootCloggeroo
()
Date: January 24, 2012 17:30
I've never heard of that before. "specialized attention"? What the heck does that mean? Was she engaged to a doctor? Was he exceptional in bed? And why is she not sure if she's received "specialized attention" before? This is all very confusing! Specialized attention?!? I must get to the bottom of this!
Re: Aretha Franklin calls off her wedding, lol
Posted by:
aprilfool
()
Date: January 24, 2012 17:31
Perhaps about the sentence where she said "moving too fast". Don't really know!Quote
GumbootCloggeroo
why is that funny?
Re: Aretha Franklin calls off her wedding, lol
Posted by:
Erik_Snow
()
Date: January 24, 2012 20:56
Quote
steel driving hammer
Aretha Franklin calls off her wedding, lol
So what is funny about this ? Not that it's sad either, but I can't see anything funny in it.
Re: Aretha Franklin calls off her wedding, lol
Posted by:
More Hot Rocks
()
Date: January 24, 2012 20:59
What's the funny part?
Re: Aretha Franklin calls off her wedding, lol
Posted by:
MILKYWAY
()
Date: January 25, 2012 01:05
Schadenfreude?
Re: Aretha Franklin calls off her wedding, lol
Posted by:
stupidguy2
()
Date: January 25, 2012 01:08
Quote
tomcasagranda
Another thing.
If he gives her specialized attention, perhaps he could tell her to stop releasing godawful garbage as her recent albums are.
Can he tell her to get back down to Muscle Shaols, or to get Dan Penn and the boys back on a new album, where she would make a high quality deep soul album. Hip hop musicians do not a good Aretha album make.
Why can't Aretha make albums of the same quality as Solomon Burke's before he passed? Or even the current albums done by Mavis Staples, Candi Staton, or Bettye Lavette ? Her output has been shabby since about 1984, and, prior to that, he last few Atlantic albums were awful too. Someone needs to give her some attention in the recording studio, methinks.
Spoken like a true fan, Tom.
My dream for Aretha is to sit her ass at a piano in a studio with Rick Rubin at the helm, and backed by some good musicians.
You ask the same question I've been asking myself forever...Mavis, Bettye....these women are still relevant in their latter-day recordings.
Why not Aretha?
Several things:
1. Laziness and complacency. SOmetime in the mid-70s, Aretha started to surround herself with ass-kissers, syncophants (or people started to worm their way into the Queen's inner sanctum)
Once she claimed that Queen of Soul title, bought into the press reverence etc...she seemed to stop creating. Like Elvis and his Memphis Mafia, these people seemed suck the creative spirit out of her. She was no victim here, she did it to herself, but I don't think she has had a real artistic muse since then.
2. Arista. Once she left Atlantic, Aretha left her roots. It all changed once Clive Davis got hold of her.
Jerry Wexler revered Aretha as an artist and he pushed her artistically by surrounding her with musicians that would meet those standards and challenged her and she them. It was a beautiful synergy. Drummer Roger Hawkins said that they fed off her energy and it made them push themselves.
Davis reveres Aretha as a Diva. Aretha was always more than that. She might have become a Diva and that's the persona we have of her now, thanks to Snickers and her own Diva behavior.
With Wexler, she wasn't some Queen walking into a studio once the band had done all the hard work to sing in front of a mic and then leave for the producers to manufacture soul music.
Back in the day, in Muscle Shoals, at Atlantic and in the studio, Aretha was all about getting down to the business of laying down a groove and pouring every ounce of herself into her music.
She was a musician's musician, a song-writer, arranger. Aretha was a badass in the studio 67-73, sitting at the piano, working with the band, chain-smoking, throwing down....
At Arista, Davis indulged Aretha's ego, surrounded her with bland studio musicians and chose songs for her written by other people. He treated her like a Queen and she become lazy and lost that genius.
My neice was so proud when she introduced me to Sharon Jones. Jones' music is a direct descendent of that Muscle Shoals' sound crystalized by Aretha and the Swampers from 67-69. WHen I mentioned that Jones reminded me of vintage Aretha, she made a joke about Snickers. At it occured to me that my niece, like most of her generations and a few previous generations, have no idea that Aretha is Aretha. Because she hasn't been relevant in decades.
Sad. She also suffers from that same thing the Stones suffer from to an extent. They're too big, too acclaimed, too spoiled by their riches and reputation to be deemed cool by generations of Internet-fueled hipsterish music listeners.
Mavis, Betteye - they have a backstory that hipsters love - the underappreciated genius getting their due etc...
Aretha, like the Stones, is too .....famous and acclaimed.
I love Mavis and Betteye, but they ain't got nothin on the Queen, when she ruled from her real throne, her piano.
This might be the last, soulful thing Aretha has ever done: just sitting at the piano trying out a new song she wrote recorded as demo sometime in the mid70s.
Another demo with the Muscle Shoals guys:
Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 2012-01-25 01:22 by stupidguy2.
Re: Aretha Franklin calls off her wedding, lol
Posted by:
jpasc95
()
Date: January 25, 2012 07:55
Before thinking of any wedding, she should rearrange her Jumping Jack Flash version...
man, it was so slow..
man, it was so slow..
Re: Aretha Franklin calls off her wedding, lol
Posted by:
tomcasagranda
()
Date: January 25, 2012 12:25
Stupidguy2, agreed more or less.
Sharon Jones is excellent. Most stuff on Daptone label is fantastic, particularly her stuff.
However, Aretha has gone beyond her comfort zone, in that, and this is a case in point. In 1994 an album came out on Telarc by The Memphis Horns, where great soul/r n b tracks were revisited by Bobby Womack, Etta James, Isaac Hayes, Mavis Staples, and Leon Russell. There was no sign of Aretha as a guest, yet she should have been.
The last good thing Aretha did was meet up with Curtis Mayfield and record Sparkle in 1975. Prior to that, the quality started to dip, and the only remarkable stuff between 1973 - 1975 were her versions of Eddie Hinton's Every Little Thing and Somewhere, where she was aided and abetted by Quincy Jones and his musicians.
There have been signs of life, most notably 1980's Blues Brother re-recording of Think, but nothing has happened of note. I stayed up late one night to watch a TV special of Aretha and guests. She opened with an over-orchestrated Respect, and I turned off in disgust. Sometimes I don't mind these events: I have sat through Tony Bennett's 80 & 85 birthday specials, and enjoyed them, but Aretha to me does not sit comfortably with these events.
Sharon Jones is excellent. Most stuff on Daptone label is fantastic, particularly her stuff.
However, Aretha has gone beyond her comfort zone, in that, and this is a case in point. In 1994 an album came out on Telarc by The Memphis Horns, where great soul/r n b tracks were revisited by Bobby Womack, Etta James, Isaac Hayes, Mavis Staples, and Leon Russell. There was no sign of Aretha as a guest, yet she should have been.
The last good thing Aretha did was meet up with Curtis Mayfield and record Sparkle in 1975. Prior to that, the quality started to dip, and the only remarkable stuff between 1973 - 1975 were her versions of Eddie Hinton's Every Little Thing and Somewhere, where she was aided and abetted by Quincy Jones and his musicians.
There have been signs of life, most notably 1980's Blues Brother re-recording of Think, but nothing has happened of note. I stayed up late one night to watch a TV special of Aretha and guests. She opened with an over-orchestrated Respect, and I turned off in disgust. Sometimes I don't mind these events: I have sat through Tony Bennett's 80 & 85 birthday specials, and enjoyed them, but Aretha to me does not sit comfortably with these events.
Re: Aretha Franklin calls off her wedding, lol
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: January 25, 2012 12:41
Quote
Erik_SnowQuote
steel driving hammer
Aretha Franklin calls off her wedding, lol
So what is funny about this ? Not that it's sad either, but I can't see anything funny in it.
I think the "funny" part has to do with Aretha, just recently, announcing her wedding plans, and now, a couple of weeks later, calls them off.
Re: Aretha Franklin calls off her wedding, lol
Posted by:
Claire_M
()
Date: January 25, 2012 20:23
The only funny (as in strange) thing that struck me about it was that she wanted to have her wedding in Miami in the summer. Girl, you woulda sweat your make-up off, no lie.
Re: Aretha Franklin calls off her wedding, lol
Posted by:
loog droog
()
Date: January 25, 2012 22:20
Quote
tomcasagranda
Another thing.
If he gives her specialized attention, perhaps he could tell her to stop releasing godawful garbage as her recent albums are.
Can he tell her to get back down to Muscle Shaols, or to get Dan Penn and the boys back on a new album, where she would make a high quality deep soul album. Hip hop musicians do not a good Aretha album make.
As much as I like Dan Penn, I don't think he's capable of making a great Aretha record anymore. The album he did with Wilson Pickett ten or so years ago was just a faint echo of the glory days. Sometimes you just can't go home again.
The last two albums that Al Green cut with Willie Mitchell were also big let-downs. But "Lay It Down," produced by Ahmir "Questlove" Thompson (of The Roots ) and James Poyser, was an excellent return to form.
She should give the "Hip Hop" musicians a chance...
Re: Aretha Franklin calls off her wedding, lol
Posted by:
tomcasagranda
()
Date: January 25, 2012 23:35
loog droog,
Check out the album with The Hacienda Brothers, and check out Testifying by The Country Soul Review. Penn's still got it. He also did Moments From This Theatre, a live album with Spooner Oldham, which is one of the best live albums you'll ever hear. I think Eddie Hinton lost the plot before he died, and wasn't in a very good state mentally as a consequence: too many drugs.
I assume you are referring to the Jon Tiven produced Wilson Pickett album It's Harder Now. What about the album Willie Mitchell did with Solomon Burke ? Nothing's Impossible is a good album.
I beg to differ re: the two albums that Al Green did with Willie Mitchell on Blue Note. I Can't Stop and Everything's Different feature some amazing tracks, and the backing vocalists on the two albums are Rhodes-Chalmers-Rhodes. Have you heard Raining In My Heart and You Are So Beautiful, plus the other tracks ? They are good, and considering Willie Mitchell's health was declining.
Lay It Down is also a good album, and I do like it. ?uestlove is a good producer in this instance. He also does a fine job on Booker T's Road to Memphis, and on John Legend's last album. ?uestlove's production can also be found on an amazing jazz album called The Philadelphia Experiment, which features Uri Caine amongst others doing music that had its roots in Philadelphia.
Could ?uestlove produce Aretha ? Possibly, but Aretha needs someone to shout at her, and not be a sycophant. I hear heart and soul from Sharon Jones, Candi Staton, Mavis Staples, and Bettye Lavette. I hear well-recorded quality music from them. I hear great production from Dan Penn, Rick Rubin, Joe Henry, and T Bone Burnett. When they produce, I hear the instruments, and can almost hear the breaths the singers take.
For example, Joe Henry got Allen Toussaint to make not a soul/New Orleans funk album, but a fantastic jazz album in The Bright Missiippii. Likewise, Joe Henry worked magic on Bettye Lavette's I Got My Own Hell to Raise.
Aretha needs someone like a Joe Henry, definitely not a ?uestlove, to get her back on track. He needs to take control of the songs, like he did making Solomon Burke's comeback a thing of beauty. Please note that Dan Penn wrote the title track of that album "Don't Give Up On Me".
Rick Rubin made Neil Diamond hip again after years of spangly diamond encrusted matronal muzak. 12 Songs and Home Before Dark are good albums by any stretch. Could he work with Aretha ? Yes, if he got a good keyboard man, i.e. Benmont Tench, plus Smokey Horrnel on guitar. Again, supervising the song choice would be worthwhile.
Ditto T Bone Burnett. He could strip it down to Aretha and voice, with subtle backing from the likes of Jay Bellarose, Burnett's own guitar, and again some judicious song choices. After all, Burnett produced the best album in decades by Elton John, a man of similar diva-esque mien, in conjunction with Leon Russell.
I would add that in recent years Candi Staton has used Mark Nivers from Lambchop, Mavis Staples Wilco, and before that, Ry cooder, to make amazingly excellent soul albums of heart and depth. Cooder also worked with Buckwheat Zydeco on a brilliant version of Cryin In The Streets for the Our New Orleans album in 2005. So, Aretha could have some excellent choices to dig her out of the morass that her career has become.
What about the recently deceased Etta James, who released a great album produced by her sons, i.e. The Dreamer ? Aretha should be cutting loose, should be allowed to wail. What happened when Elvis Presley was allowed to cut loose and make soulful music ? He made Elvis In Memphis, and rose again, before going into lifeless torpor. Frank Sinatra made a great saloon album in She Shot Me Down. Can we, thus, without hip-hop, and samples, allow Aretha to make an album that would have heart and soul within its grooves ?
Check out the album with The Hacienda Brothers, and check out Testifying by The Country Soul Review. Penn's still got it. He also did Moments From This Theatre, a live album with Spooner Oldham, which is one of the best live albums you'll ever hear. I think Eddie Hinton lost the plot before he died, and wasn't in a very good state mentally as a consequence: too many drugs.
I assume you are referring to the Jon Tiven produced Wilson Pickett album It's Harder Now. What about the album Willie Mitchell did with Solomon Burke ? Nothing's Impossible is a good album.
I beg to differ re: the two albums that Al Green did with Willie Mitchell on Blue Note. I Can't Stop and Everything's Different feature some amazing tracks, and the backing vocalists on the two albums are Rhodes-Chalmers-Rhodes. Have you heard Raining In My Heart and You Are So Beautiful, plus the other tracks ? They are good, and considering Willie Mitchell's health was declining.
Lay It Down is also a good album, and I do like it. ?uestlove is a good producer in this instance. He also does a fine job on Booker T's Road to Memphis, and on John Legend's last album. ?uestlove's production can also be found on an amazing jazz album called The Philadelphia Experiment, which features Uri Caine amongst others doing music that had its roots in Philadelphia.
Could ?uestlove produce Aretha ? Possibly, but Aretha needs someone to shout at her, and not be a sycophant. I hear heart and soul from Sharon Jones, Candi Staton, Mavis Staples, and Bettye Lavette. I hear well-recorded quality music from them. I hear great production from Dan Penn, Rick Rubin, Joe Henry, and T Bone Burnett. When they produce, I hear the instruments, and can almost hear the breaths the singers take.
For example, Joe Henry got Allen Toussaint to make not a soul/New Orleans funk album, but a fantastic jazz album in The Bright Missiippii. Likewise, Joe Henry worked magic on Bettye Lavette's I Got My Own Hell to Raise.
Aretha needs someone like a Joe Henry, definitely not a ?uestlove, to get her back on track. He needs to take control of the songs, like he did making Solomon Burke's comeback a thing of beauty. Please note that Dan Penn wrote the title track of that album "Don't Give Up On Me".
Rick Rubin made Neil Diamond hip again after years of spangly diamond encrusted matronal muzak. 12 Songs and Home Before Dark are good albums by any stretch. Could he work with Aretha ? Yes, if he got a good keyboard man, i.e. Benmont Tench, plus Smokey Horrnel on guitar. Again, supervising the song choice would be worthwhile.
Ditto T Bone Burnett. He could strip it down to Aretha and voice, with subtle backing from the likes of Jay Bellarose, Burnett's own guitar, and again some judicious song choices. After all, Burnett produced the best album in decades by Elton John, a man of similar diva-esque mien, in conjunction with Leon Russell.
I would add that in recent years Candi Staton has used Mark Nivers from Lambchop, Mavis Staples Wilco, and before that, Ry cooder, to make amazingly excellent soul albums of heart and depth. Cooder also worked with Buckwheat Zydeco on a brilliant version of Cryin In The Streets for the Our New Orleans album in 2005. So, Aretha could have some excellent choices to dig her out of the morass that her career has become.
What about the recently deceased Etta James, who released a great album produced by her sons, i.e. The Dreamer ? Aretha should be cutting loose, should be allowed to wail. What happened when Elvis Presley was allowed to cut loose and make soulful music ? He made Elvis In Memphis, and rose again, before going into lifeless torpor. Frank Sinatra made a great saloon album in She Shot Me Down. Can we, thus, without hip-hop, and samples, allow Aretha to make an album that would have heart and soul within its grooves ?
Re: Aretha Franklin calls off her wedding, lol
Posted by:
stupidguy2
()
Date: January 26, 2012 03:06
Quote
tomcasagranda
loog droog,
Check out the album with The Hacienda Brothers, and check out Testifying by The Country Soul Review. Penn's still got it. He also did Moments From This Theatre, a live album with Spooner Oldham, which is one of the best live albums you'll ever hear. I think Eddie Hinton lost the plot before he died, and wasn't in a very good state mentally as a consequence: too many drugs.
I assume you are referring to the Jon Tiven produced Wilson Pickett album It's Harder Now. What about the album Willie Mitchell did with Solomon Burke ? Nothing's Impossible is a good album.
I beg to differ re: the two albums that Al Green did with Willie Mitchell on Blue Note. I Can't Stop and Everything's Different feature some amazing tracks, and the backing vocalists on the two albums are Rhodes-Chalmers-Rhodes. Have you heard Raining In My Heart and You Are So Beautiful, plus the other tracks ? They are good, and considering Willie Mitchell's health was declining.
Lay It Down is also a good album, and I do like it. ?uestlove is a good producer in this instance. He also does a fine job on Booker T's Road to Memphis, and on John Legend's last album. ?uestlove's production can also be found on an amazing jazz album called The Philadelphia Experiment, which features Uri Caine amongst others doing music that had its roots in Philadelphia.
Could ?uestlove produce Aretha ? Possibly, but Aretha needs someone to shout at her, and not be a sycophant. I hear heart and soul from Sharon Jones, Candi Staton, Mavis Staples, and Bettye Lavette. I hear well-recorded quality music from them. I hear great production from Dan Penn, Rick Rubin, Joe Henry, and T Bone Burnett. When they produce, I hear the instruments, and can almost hear the breaths the singers take.
For example, Joe Henry got Allen Toussaint to make not a soul/New Orleans funk album, but a fantastic jazz album in The Bright Missiippii. Likewise, Joe Henry worked magic on Bettye Lavette's I Got My Own Hell to Raise.
Aretha needs someone like a Joe Henry, definitely not a ?uestlove, to get her back on track. He needs to take control of the songs, like he did making Solomon Burke's comeback a thing of beauty. Please note that Dan Penn wrote the title track of that album "Don't Give Up On Me".
Rick Rubin made Neil Diamond hip again after years of spangly diamond encrusted matronal muzak. 12 Songs and Home Before Dark are good albums by any stretch. Could he work with Aretha ? Yes, if he got a good keyboard man, i.e. Benmont Tench, plus Smokey Horrnel on guitar. Again, supervising the song choice would be worthwhile.
Ditto T Bone Burnett. He could strip it down to Aretha and voice, with subtle backing from the likes of Jay Bellarose, Burnett's own guitar, and again some judicious song choices. After all, Burnett produced the best album in decades by Elton John, a man of similar diva-esque mien, in conjunction with Leon Russell.
I would add that in recent years Candi Staton has used Mark Nivers from Lambchop, Mavis Staples Wilco, and before that, Ry cooder, to make amazingly excellent soul albums of heart and depth. Cooder also worked with Buckwheat Zydeco on a brilliant version of Cryin In The Streets for the Our New Orleans album in 2005. So, Aretha could have some excellent choices to dig her out of the morass that her career has become.
What about the recently deceased Etta James, who released a great album produced by her sons, i.e. The Dreamer ? Aretha should be cutting loose, should be allowed to wail. What happened when Elvis Presley was allowed to cut loose and make soulful music ? He made Elvis In Memphis, and rose again, before going into lifeless torpor. Frank Sinatra made a great saloon album in She Shot Me Down. Can we, thus, without hip-hop, and samples, allow Aretha to make an album that would have heart and soul within its grooves ?
From your fingertips to God's ear, or someone in charge of these things.
Great post.
This is exactly what Aretha needs. She's still Aretha, the woman that sat down and threw down with abandon. Can she go home again?
She's shot her vocal chords to hell from all those years of pushing it to and beyond its limits. So she has lost some of the power in her range.
I actually liked "A Rose is a Rose" produced by Lauren Hill, i'd forgotten about that one.
It would take a Rubin, I think Burnett is too nice, polite. You are correct, she would need someone who would kick her ass, have some authority, like the argument some have made in regard to the Stones and Don Was.
I also think she needs youth in a backup band. I was thinking something similar to what the Drive-By Truckers did with Bettye Levette.
The real question is would Aretha let it happen. You made a great analogy with Elvis in Memphis.....
Like Aretha, Elvis had let his persona, fame overshadow and consume his identity. While in Aretha's case, its not as extreme in that she doesn't seem as isolated and vulnerable as Elvis, but its not that different.
To be fair, the woman has had misery: never knew her mother, her father was murdered, her three siblings gone...
But that can be a perfect storm of pent-up emotion just waiting to be unleashed. It seems like she's just retreated.
My ultimate dream hookup would be Aretha reuniting with Penn and the Muscle Shoals guys, but they're not in the best shape musically either.
Can you imagine the Black Keys backing Aretha on piano on a collection of new songs?
Priceless.
Problem is, I suspect people are slightly intimidated by Aretha...
BTW,
'Rick Rubin made Neil Diamond hip again after years of spangly diamond encrusted matronal muzak.'
Perfect.
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2012-01-26 03:20 by stupidguy2.
Re: Aretha Franklin calls off her wedding, lol
Posted by:
tomcasagranda
()
Date: January 26, 2012 12:21
Stupidguy2,
Thank you.
What I should write is that sometimes artists have it in them to make a great comeback. Elvis did by going home to Memphis, and then using the Muscle Shoals swampers on Elvis Country.
Sinatra came back by making She Shot Me Down: a late album in his career, his voice wasn't what it was, and it was an older man continuing in the same vein as All Alone, In The Wee Small Hours etc.
Even Tom Jones has come back, realising that his roots do not lie in casts of thousands duet albums, or poor material. His work with Ethan Johns on Praise & Blame show a real singer, judiciously backed by great musicians, on choices that are, in the main, excellent.
You could also have a sustained comeback, in that Bob Dylan got Daniel Lanois to produce his meditations on mortality, i.e. Time Out Of Mind, and then, dispensing with producers, made 3 more comeback albums in Love & Theft, Modern Times, and Together Through Life.
Aretha can do this: the examples are above. Her peer group in soul are able to do it, as I mentioned before.
Thank you.
What I should write is that sometimes artists have it in them to make a great comeback. Elvis did by going home to Memphis, and then using the Muscle Shoals swampers on Elvis Country.
Sinatra came back by making She Shot Me Down: a late album in his career, his voice wasn't what it was, and it was an older man continuing in the same vein as All Alone, In The Wee Small Hours etc.
Even Tom Jones has come back, realising that his roots do not lie in casts of thousands duet albums, or poor material. His work with Ethan Johns on Praise & Blame show a real singer, judiciously backed by great musicians, on choices that are, in the main, excellent.
You could also have a sustained comeback, in that Bob Dylan got Daniel Lanois to produce his meditations on mortality, i.e. Time Out Of Mind, and then, dispensing with producers, made 3 more comeback albums in Love & Theft, Modern Times, and Together Through Life.
Aretha can do this: the examples are above. Her peer group in soul are able to do it, as I mentioned before.
Re: Aretha Franklin calls off her wedding, lol
Posted by:
leteyer
()
Date: January 26, 2012 12:32
Quote
GumbootCloggeroo
why is that funny?
Exactly what I thought...
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2012-01-26 12:35 by leteyer.
Re: Aretha Franklin calls off her wedding, lol
Posted by:
stupidguy2
()
Date: January 27, 2012 00:46
Quote
tomcasagranda
Stupidguy2,
Thank you.
What I should write is that sometimes artists have it in them to make a great comeback. Elvis did by going home to Memphis, and then using the Muscle Shoals swampers on Elvis Country.
Sinatra came back by making She Shot Me Down: a late album in his career, his voice wasn't what it was, and it was an older man continuing in the same vein as All Alone, In The Wee Small Hours etc.
Even Tom Jones has come back, realising that his roots do not lie in casts of thousands duet albums, or poor material. His work with Ethan Johns on Praise & Blame show a real singer, judiciously backed by great musicians, on choices that are, in the main, excellent.
You could also have a sustained comeback, in that Bob Dylan got Daniel Lanois to produce his meditations on mortality, i.e. Time Out Of Mind, and then, dispensing with producers, made 3 more comeback albums in Love & Theft, Modern Times, and Together Through Life.
Aretha can do this: the examples are above. Her peer group in soul are able to do it, as I mentioned before.
I think that's the bigger question: does Aretha have it in her to have a 'comeback'?
Problem is, I don't think Aretha thinks she's gone anywhere....
She seems perfectly content with the loungy supper-club live venues, the generic 'love songs' produced by rote.
One of the ironies about Aretha is that, as one of the most visceral live performers and raw voices, there is very little quality live material available. You mentioned how you turned off the TV once Respect began a latter-day concert. That song has never matched the original's groove. The live versions of those classic songs always sounded like the opening theme to Johnny Carson:
Ladies and Gentlmen.... etc...
In 67, Aretha's loser husband at the time, Ted White, hand-picked her live band to go on tour to capitalize on the success of I Never Loved a Man...
But the band was horrible, playing the songs too fast and you can see that in those clips: Aretha seems to be trying to keep a groove, but she just didn't have the same chemistry that she had had with the Muscle Shoals musicians, who never toured - unlike Stax and Booker T and MGs, the Swampers were strictly a studio band. Too bad, because those songs have never sounded as good live without them.
The only exceptions were the Filmore West shows: great band chosen by Wexler and King Curtis. ANd of course the gospel album, Montreux 71....
Other than that, its been Vegas Aretha. The greatest female vocalist of this century cannot break out of her own bad choices and indulgences.
If you haven't yet and if you get a chance, read Matt Dobkin's book, I Never Loved a Man, a detailed account of the recording of that album. Dobkin interviewed most of the Muscle Shoals musicians and even White. It gives you a great insight into those sessions. The most interesting thing is that Aretha was far from a diva then. She was described by Roger Hawkins, Jimmy Johnson, Spooner Oldham etc...as kind of shy, but very professional, collaborative and respectful in the studio. No dramas, no tantrums - just a great, young artist at the moment self-discovery. It's excellent. My theory is that with these guys, and later, Cornell Dupree, Chuck Rainey in the 70s, she was in her element, with great musicians she could create sparks with.
Her work with Mayfield was substantial, but by that time, it seemed like Aretha had lost much of the urgency of the Atlantic days.....
This a demo of the original version of Never Loved a Man...for most artist, this would have been the take. For Aretha, it was just the idea of the song.
Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 2012-01-27 01:10 by stupidguy2.
Re: Aretha Franklin calls off her wedding, lol
Posted by:
tomcasagranda
()
Date: January 27, 2012 15:41
Stupidguy2,
I do have the rare & unreleased Aretha on cd. I really do enjoy listening to it.
I also love Aretha's columbia recordings, anthologised on Queen In Waiting & Just A Matter Of Time. Lee Cross, Running Out Of Fools, Skylark, etc are top rate in relation to the Arista material.
I have one piece, post Atlantic, and that is a godawful duet with George Benson on a George Benson rhino anthology. The only reason I bought the Benson anthology was because of recordings with Jimmy Smith, Johnny McGriff, and the CTI material. Again, Benson is someone that started well, working with Miles Davis on Miles In The Sky, and then doing anaemic, lifeless garbage.
I do have the rare & unreleased Aretha on cd. I really do enjoy listening to it.
I also love Aretha's columbia recordings, anthologised on Queen In Waiting & Just A Matter Of Time. Lee Cross, Running Out Of Fools, Skylark, etc are top rate in relation to the Arista material.
I have one piece, post Atlantic, and that is a godawful duet with George Benson on a George Benson rhino anthology. The only reason I bought the Benson anthology was because of recordings with Jimmy Smith, Johnny McGriff, and the CTI material. Again, Benson is someone that started well, working with Miles Davis on Miles In The Sky, and then doing anaemic, lifeless garbage.
Re: Aretha Franklin calls off her wedding, lol
Posted by:
Claire_M
()
Date: January 27, 2012 16:46
Please refresh my memory on something: early in Aretha's career, when she was trying to find her style and recorded a couple of albums that didn't work out, didn't Jerry Wexler say the key was getting Aretha to play the piano on her own recordings? That brought out the Soul in the woman who would be Queen. Also, a great band, producer and the involvement of Aretha's sister.
Stupidguy, is this what you'd call Vegas Aretha?! I understand the horn arrangement is perhaps not ideal, but phwoah! Her voice is incendiary:
Stupidguy, is this what you'd call Vegas Aretha?! I understand the horn arrangement is perhaps not ideal, but phwoah! Her voice is incendiary:
Re: Aretha Franklin calls off her wedding, lol
Posted by:
satisfaction2
()
Date: January 27, 2012 18:12
........
- C H A I N
O F
F O O L S -
.......
- T H I N K -
.......
- R E S P E C T -
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2012-01-27 18:13 by satisfaction2.
- C H A I N
O F
F O O L S -
.......
- T H I N K -
.......
- R E S P E C T -
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2012-01-27 18:13 by satisfaction2.
Re: Aretha Franklin calls off her wedding, lol
Posted by:
stupidguy2
()
Date: January 27, 2012 23:26
Quote
Claire_M
Please refresh my memory on something: early in Aretha's career, when she was trying to find her style and recorded a couple of albums that didn't work out, didn't Jerry Wexler say the key was getting Aretha to play the piano on her own recordings? That brought out the Soul in the woman who would be Queen. Also, a great band, producer and the involvement of Aretha's sister.
Stupidguy, is this what you'd call Vegas Aretha?! I understand the horn arrangement is perhaps not ideal, but phwoah! Her voice is incendiary:
Aretha always had the raw power in her voice....Im nitpicking about the band, arrangement etc...
That is correct about Wexler and Aretha's piano.
That was a major part of it because it empowered her. But it was also more than that. Aretha had played on many of her Columbia recordings, but the backdrop was different, more formal. At Columbia, she was doing the "next Billie Holliday' gig, which is how they perceived her, Good recordings, but very much mandated by the record company expectations etc. She was being backed by great pros, but they were older, more jazz-based, and in Wexler's view, slightly jaded New York session guys.
He had worked with the Muscle Shoals on sessions with Wilson Pickett and recognized a hungrier, mostly younger bunch. That was true, but a huge factor in pre-Atlantic Aretha was the fact that the Muscle Shoals musicians, all white Alabama guys, were rooted in the same Southern Baptist, Pentecostal church that most southerners - black and white - came from. Unlike with the New York jazz guys at Columbia, Aretha's natural gospel-based musical instincts were not foreign to them.... they understood it and that came out in the music, the feel in those recordings.
In essence, Detroit-bred, but Memphis-born Aretha musically connected with these Southern musicians and that liberated her musically. Wexler recognized this....She had a great synergy with the band and ended up taking them back to New York's Atlantic Studios where they remained her official house band until 1970.
It's one of the best stories in Rock and Roll: The Queen of Soul didn't become the Queen until she threw down with, in Wexler's words, Alabama country boys.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2012-01-27 23:28 by stupidguy2.
Re: Aretha Franklin calls off her wedding, lol
Posted by:
Claire_M
()
Date: January 28, 2012 00:25
Damn! Thank you, Stupidguy - very interesting.
"Muscle Shoals musicians, all white Alabama guys..." I didn't flipping know that! I recently saw the excellent "Respect Yourself: the Stax Records Story" and was surprised at how integrated Stax was, from owners to musicians - was thrilled to learn that the co-founder was a woman. I only know of a few pioneer women who were label owners.
But I digress. I must check out that American Masters doc on Aretha that PBS did several years ago.
"Muscle Shoals musicians, all white Alabama guys..." I didn't flipping know that! I recently saw the excellent "Respect Yourself: the Stax Records Story" and was surprised at how integrated Stax was, from owners to musicians - was thrilled to learn that the co-founder was a woman. I only know of a few pioneer women who were label owners.
But I digress. I must check out that American Masters doc on Aretha that PBS did several years ago.
Re: Aretha Franklin calls off her wedding, lol
Posted by:
loog droog
()
Date: January 28, 2012 01:11
Quote
Claire_M
But I digress. I must check out that American Masters doc on Aretha that PBS did several years ago.
Don't bother. Not much to it. Doesn't really explore her art. Probably the most shallow offering of the entire series.
Re: Aretha Franklin calls off her wedding, lol
Posted by:
TippyToe
()
Date: January 28, 2012 03:12
There'll be no weddng today, lol.
Re: Aretha Franklin calls off her wedding, lol
Posted by:
Midnight Toker
()
Date: January 28, 2012 04:52
is it true that she ate the wedding cake by herslf before the actual wedding?
Re: Aretha Franklin calls off her wedding, lol
Posted by:
stonesrule
()
Date: January 28, 2012 05:10
Aretha Franklin deserves so much more respect than some of the childish comments posted. She is one of the greatest talents ever AND an intelligent and goodhearted person. I know from personal experience.
Re: Aretha Franklin calls off her wedding, lol
Posted by:
stupidguy2
()
Date: January 28, 2012 06:12
Quote
stonesrule
Aretha Franklin deserves so much more respect than some of the childish comments posted.Quote
Yeah, fat jokes...funny huh?Quote
She is one of the greatest talents ever AND an intelligent and goodhearted person. I know from personal experience.
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