That's a very childish and one dimensional argument, imo. The documentary genre is developing, and rightly it should include important films where the filmmaker's purpose by making it is given, too. To shed light on the problems is the most important thing, not to stick to conservative views on how objective a documentary should be.

You think there's no truth at all in Moore's films, seriously?

The only "falsehood", as far as I'm concerned, is within the clipping and editing (he can be really mean there).

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sweet neo con

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kleermaker

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DandelionPowderman
You don't think it's ok to focus on real problems, although not being a "proper" documentarist?

He's not a documentarist, he's an activist. Everybody knows that. The point is, emphasizing things he doesn't think work in the american society. To do that, you have to make things bigger than they are. What's wrong with that?

Well said DandelionP!

Well said?? He wins academy awards for making DOCUMENTARIES.

Raising awareness with falsehoods in a "documentary"? Makes sense. Not.
I guess the truth isn't strong enough to support his claims then.

THE truth doesn't exist. Only simple facts of the kind as: a cat is not a dog, some people die by their own guns, still many people on this planet are dying because of hunger and diseases that actually can be prevented and/or cured easily, the richest people in the US got richer last year. Well, those are facts. Almost all other things are just opinions.

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sweet neo con

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bustedtrousers


Neo, I don't agree with your politics, but why do you automatically fall back on the same cliched talking points, like gun rights and health care, when talking about someone who doesn't hold the same views as you?

And what makes you think the sources on that anti-Moore website (and I understand it's the first thing you came across in your search) are anymore truthful and reliable than Moore himself?

And it is f-ucked-up that a fatty like him is preaching about healthcare problems.

it has been proven that he sets up & creates
scenes and cuts & pastes speeches in order to severely distort reality & the truth to support his agenda.


I don't care about his appearance or his personal hypocrisies.....I only care that he's
falsely informing people.....
Too many people believe that if it's in a movie..it must be true.

1. So does Sean Hannity on his Faux News Channel show.

2. Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, and the Faux News Channel do the same thing. And mindless conservatives believe everything they say.

Just because someone appreciates Michael Moore's documentaries, and again, disagrees with you, doesn't mean they hate the 2nd Amendment and American healthcare (again, I'll give you Bush). Michael Moore himself grew up owning and shooting guns, and was a member of the NRA from an early age. He doesn't hate the 2nd Amemndment, but he does hate how the NRA evolved from the legitimate, sane organization he enjoyed as a youth, into a wacko lobbying group for the christian right.

I notice you didn't argue about how I explained myself, and kept your focus on Michael Moore. A lot of people feel the way I do, i.e., have sane, rational, and reasonable opinions on the subjects you and the right hold so dear to your hearts as "American Values". I guess the way we think involves too much common sense for ya, eh?

The truth is the US healhtcare system is a sham. You may not like Moore because he is a fattie and hits hard, but the healthcare system is indeed a sham.

what does his weight have to do with anything?

grand funk railroad's cover of gimme shelter is terrible.

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kleermaker

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sweet neo con

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kleermaker

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DandelionPowderman
You don't think it's ok to focus on real problems, although not being a "proper" documentarist?

He's not a documentarist, he's an activist. Everybody knows that. The point is, emphasizing things he doesn't think work in the american society. To do that, you have to make things bigger than they are. What's wrong with that?

Well said DandelionP!

Well said?? He wins academy awards for making DOCUMENTARIES.

Raising awareness with falsehoods in a "documentary"? Makes sense. Not.
I guess the truth isn't strong enough to support his claims then.

ok..I guess the facts aren't strong enough to support his claims then.

have your opinions...i'll have mine.

by the way trousers....i haven't been arguing with anybody here....just stating my case.
sorry that you didn't even know the topic of Moore's movies when you claimed
i was citing "cliched talking points".........GWB, Guns & HealthCare. Have you even seen the movies?
Have you ever questioned his movies? Done further research?

My only real point...why would I want Moore's opinion anything, he can't even make
an honest documentary.


IORR............but I like it!

Nasty, nasty. Guys please agree to disagree here. We all know how polarized the political scene has become in the USA. Very sad how pathetic it has become.

BV please shut this one down.

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sweet neo con

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Beelyboy

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sweet neo con

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duke richardson
Michael Moore has been good for Michael Moore....

enough said. [www.mooreexposed.com]

neocon pedantic or pathetic certainly predictable . hate site link 4 the dim starting rite off w derisive fat joke. zactly ur speed. slow. not a consistent moore fan myself particularly but ur ten times the reactionary. and hes done some gud stuff. stones a beatle hair do band makjing it huge and a historic ten or so yearz b4 bitter break and occasional oldies tours w varying quality and awful sound and contemptuous prices. mebbe hed say that naybe not. not life or death. a circus and a business. not much art or courage.

Beely, If you and SCL want to dislike GWB, 2nd Amendment & US Health Care....fine, but at
least find someone more credible than Michael Moore to (blindly) follow. The link I posted
was something I quickly found this morning...was one of the only ones that summed up his
lies from more than one of his pseudo-"documentaries" (most concentrate on a single film). So..get past the
other crap and read what the people refuting Moore are saying..that's all.

As for spewing hatred, you & SCL have the bases covered there.
Your recent rants about post-ers w/2 names .....and trying to take down 71Tele were very revealing.

And Beely if you really want us to read your posts.....howabout making them more intelligible (& intelligent).

As for Moore's feelings about the Rolling Stones. Who cares?

Spewing hatred. I'm spewing hatred because I call you out when you try to shove your right wing agenda down people's throats. Even though you are quite aware of the no politics policy on here. I'm never the first one to make a political statement. But I'm not going to sit back and let you spam the board with a right wing agenda. That's not spewing hatred,it's just being honest. If you don't like it. Don't bring up politics.
Altough we can agree on one thing. Beelyboy has turned into a raving lunatic and his posts are absoultely unreadable these days. Their hands across the aisle,we can find common ground....Oh yeah and remember the Rolling Stones too.

I see some think Michael Moore would have some axe to grind with the Rolling Stones. I personally don't see why. They are entertainers NOT policy makers. Why would he care what ticket prices are? The money spent is discretionary on the part of the fans. They have always put on a very good show and the people leave with more than they came for in most cases.

CBII

hey charmed if u cant keep frm constantly attacking me with ur psychological diagnoses etc because u look like a fool for falling for proven bullshit i am sorry for u. u know bv posted twice about 71tele lies. u used to show a lot of heart integrity and generosity that i appreciate so i havent responded to ur several mean spirited provably incorrect personal slams til now but now im asking u to stop. lets not go there. its unfair incorrect and way out of character for u. ur defending a troll who lied provably and whateveqp man. it wud b best 4 all concerned if u wud stop throwing meanass insults. j

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CBII
I see some think Michael Moore would have some axe to grind with the Rolling Stones. I personally don't see why. They are entertainers NOT policy makers. Why would he care what ticket prices are? The money spent is discretionary on the part of the fans. They have always put on a very good show and the people leave with more than they came for in most cases.

Good post CBII, could very well be MM is a devoted Stones fan.

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Beelyboy
hey charmed if u cant keep frm constantly attacking me with ur psychological diagnoses etc because u look like a fool for falling for proven bullshit i am sorry for u. u know bv posted twice about 71tele lies. u used to show a lot of heart integrity and generosity that i appreciate so i havent responded to ur several mean spirited provably incorrect personal slams til now but now im asking u to stop. lets not go there. its unfair incorrect and way out of character for u. ur defending a troll who lied provably and whateveqp man. it wud b best 4 all concerned if u wud stop throwing meanass insults. j

No problem Beeley. But you really got to drop the accusations against other posters on here as well.

this thread is absurd. but funny.

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sweetcharmedlife

Altough we can agree on one thing. Beelyboy has turned into a raving lunatic and his posts are absoultely unreadable these days. Their hands across the aisle,we can find common ground....Oh yeah and remember the Rolling Stones too.

Re: Beely
Sounds like good common ground.

To be honest I don't like to debate this stuff on a R Stones board. Like you, I never start
the political threads but I have a hard time sitting back and seeing people claim that
Moore's movies are 100% factual or that Documentarians don't need to be honest about their claims.
I'm skeptical about statements made by both the Left & Right until
I do my own research. That's the last I'll say about......and in the future I'll try to ignore such posts
and certain post-ers attempts to bait me.

Again let's just agree to disagree about that stuff........but we can agree that Beely's post
are so cryptic and weird that it makes one wonder. His posts weren't always that far out there.


IORR............but I like it!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2010-09-26 02:37 by sweet neo con.

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sweet neo con

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sweetcharmedlife

Altough we can agree on one thing. Beelyboy has turned into a raving lunatic and his posts are absoultely unreadable these days. Their hands across the aisle,we can find common ground....Oh yeah and remember the Rolling Stones too.

Re: Beely
Sounds like good common ground.

To be honest I don't like to debate this stuff on a R Stones board. Like you, I never start
the political threads but I have a hard time sitting back and seeing people claim that
Moore's movies are based in fact. I'm skeptical about statements made by both the Left & Right until
I do my own research. That's the last I'll say about......and in the future I'll try to ignore such posts
and certain post-ers attempts to bait me.

Again let's just agree to disagree about that stuff........but we can agree that Beely's post
are so cryptic and weird that it makes one wonder. His posts weren't always that far out there.

How about we just move on,on all fronts SNC?

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sweetcharmedlife

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sweet neo con

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sweetcharmedlife

Altough we can agree on one thing. Beelyboy has turned into a raving lunatic and his posts are absoultely unreadable these days. Their hands across the aisle,we can find common ground....Oh yeah and remember the Rolling Stones too.

Re: Beely
Sounds like good common ground.

To be honest I don't like to debate this stuff on a R Stones board. Like you, I never start
the political threads but I have a hard time sitting back and seeing people claim that
Moore's movies are based in fact. I'm skeptical about statements made by both the Left & Right until
I do my own research. That's the last I'll say about......and in the future I'll try to ignore such posts
and certain post-ers attempts to bait me.

Again let's just agree to disagree about that stuff........but we can agree that Beely's post
are so cryptic and weird that it makes one wonder. His posts weren't always that far out there.

How about we just move on,on all fronts SNC?

absolutely.


IORR............but I like it!

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sweetcharmedlife

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Beelyboy
hey charmed if u cant keep frm constantly attacking me with ur psychological diagnoses etc because u look like a fool for falling for proven bullshit i am sorry for u. u know bv posted twice about 71tele lies. u used to show a lot of heart integrity and generosity that i appreciate so i havent responded to ur several mean spirited provably incorrect personal slams til now but now im asking u to stop. lets not go there. its unfair incorrect and way out of character for u. ur defending a troll who lied provably and whateveqp man. it wud b best 4 all concerned if u wud stop throwing meanass insults. j

No problem Beeley. But you really got to drop the accusations against other posters on here as well.

no im not gonna stop ever defending certain proven truth in the face of being stalked hated 4 years by 71tele and various names it uses to attack. every single word i posted is proven truth and u sand down from cowardly hate stalkers at yr own peril. i tried that. dosent work man. one is supposed to not yield to hate. i dont. u and me?this shud be irrelevant. i do not want to fite anyone. u cann research the dozens of slams over Years by this guy if u wanted. and really shame on u for not doing so and slamming me. we are friends w nice history i wont get on u like u were brainless neo puke or because ur not. u love helter fine w me. bv himself directly refuted his lie and if ur not being stalked u have luxury of ignoring direct honest facts. the history is there. i want peace between u and me and wil act accordingly no matter if u decide not to. peaceout wish u well.

Michael Moore's documentaries are as much about him as they are his subjects. I dont know if I'd want him to do a doc on the Stones!

I doubt Moore would ever do a documentary on the Rolling Stones, but my guess that, if he did, he'd be all over them as cold and shameless money grubbers who have lost touch with their fan base.

There'd surely be juxtapositions of $400 tickets with "let's drink the salt of the earth" that can't afford those tickets, and "Street Fighting Man" with Jagger's villa in France.

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ab
I doubt Moore would ever do a documentary on the Rolling Stones, but my guess that, if he did, he'd be all over them as cold and shameless money grubbers who have lost touch with their fan base.

There'd surely be juxtapositions of $400 tickets with "let's drink the salt of the earth" that can't afford those tickets, and "Street Fighting Man" with Jagger's villa in France.

And would he be wrong in doing so?.....Are facts not indeed facts?

Yeah Yeah, we want More More Michael Moore - a very talented Dude and Sage. I think he would go lenient (but truthful as always) with the Stones. Maybe even bring back Mick T for the last tour - that would be super cool, that would be beyond big time rockin' - count me in....

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CrissCrossMind
Yeah Yeah, we want More More Michael Moore - a very talented Dude and Sage. I think he would go lenient (but truthful as always) with the Stones. Maybe even bring back Mick T for the last tour - that would be super cool, that would be beyond big time rockin' - count me in....

Well, Moore was the editor at Mother Jones, hardly a "tell it like it is" publication. And his manipulation of an interview with Bob Eubanks in Roger & Me also should tell tell you something. And did you know that Moore actally interviewed Roger Smith before he made a movie about trying to interview Roger Smith?

Super cool? How old are you? 11? Do you have friends named Scooter?

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MKjan
The truth is the US healhtcare system is a sham. You may not like Moore because he is a fattie and hits hard, but the healthcare system is indeed a sham.

Did you read my first post? I clearly stated that I don't hate our healthcare (I happen to think it's some of the best in the world), but the system sucks because it's unaffordable, due to the current way of paying by of insurance, which most of us, including myself, can't afford. I thought I was pretty clear about that, and while sham isn't necessarily the word I would use, I don't feel any better about the "system" part of it then than you do.

As far as Michael Moore goes, I don't dislike him because he is a fattie and hits hard, but I do think it's kind of disingenuous of him to make a healthcare movie, pledge to lose weight and take better care of himself, and then not do it, which appears to be the case. I haven't seen that film, but many people feel one of the problems with healthcare in America is that so many of us eat crap, don't exercise, and end up like Mr. Moore as a result.

I haven't seen any of his movies since Fahrenheit 911 because that one scared the hell out of me, and just kind of turned me off on him. I think he is more about scaring people and pointing fingers, than coming up with solutions. If that's his intent, and through that he hopes to make change, that's all fine and well, but it no longer works for me. I'm tired of having the shit scared out of me. And I'm not someone who has his head buried in the sand, I keep up with what's going on as best I can. In other words, I already know we're basically f-ucked nine ways from Sunday on a lot of fronts, unless some significant changes start taking place, and I don't need to sit through a two hour gut-wrenching movie that says so over and over.

I don't hate Michael Moore, but after the 9/11 movie, I began to trust him less. I realize he's just doing what the other side does, which is to present things in a rather extreme, over the top way, to shock people into going along with them. He's pretty much said that's what he does, because there was noone on the left really doing that. But I'm so over that tactic at this point, that I don't really trust anyone who goes that route anymore, good or bad. That, and some things I've read about him, have made me not so fond of him.

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sweet neo con

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kleermaker

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sweet neo con

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kleermaker

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DandelionPowderman
You don't think it's ok to focus on real problems, although not being a "proper" documentarist?

He's not a documentarist, he's an activist. Everybody knows that. The point is, emphasizing things he doesn't think work in the american society. To do that, you have to make things bigger than they are. What's wrong with that?

Well said DandelionP!

Well said?? He wins academy awards for making DOCUMENTARIES.

Raising awareness with falsehoods in a "documentary"? Makes sense. Not.
I guess the truth isn't strong enough to support his claims then.

ok..I guess the facts aren't strong enough to support his claims then.

have your opinions...i'll have mine.

by the way trousers....i haven't been arguing with anybody here....just stating my case.
sorry that you didn't even know the topic of Moore's movies when you claimed
i was citing "cliched talking points".........GWB, Guns & HealthCare. Have you even seen the movies?
Have you ever questioned his movies? Done further research?

My only real point...why would I want Moore's opinion anything, he can't even make
an honest documentary.

I've been around long enough to know when I see a movie like one of Michael Moore's, that there's likely more to it than meets the eye, and it needs to be taken with a grain of salt. I don't naively believe or buy into anything anymore, and haven't for a long time.

By the way Neo, you stated the following:

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Like you, I never start
the political threads but I have a hard time sitting back and seeing people claim that
Moore's movies are 100% factual or that Documentarians don't need to be honest about their claims.

I went back and looked at the first page, and there was a poster who said, "not to mix politics and music. Michael Moore has been good for Michael Moore, and as an awareness-raiser for certain issues.", which is actually a pretty apolitical statement. But you couldn't leave it alone, and had to reply with a link to an anti-Michael Moore website, which started this whole ball of crap.

You also said, "I have a hard time sitting back and seeing people claim that
Moore's movies are 100% factual or that Documentarians don't need to be honest about their claims".

Nobody said a damn word about Moore's movies until you posted that link. Seems to me you couldn't hardly wait for there to be an opening so you could start. If Moore and his movies are such a touchy thing with you, why didn't you just ignore this thread altogether?

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bustedtrousers


Nobody said a damn word about Moore's movies until you posted that link. Seems to me you couldn't hardly wait for there to be an opening so you could start. If Moore and his movies are such a touchy thing with you, why didn't you just ignore this thread altogether?

get serious...he is synonymous with film-making these days...and he is political.
the very first post was about his film-making and the treatment of a subject (in this case the Stones).
The treatment of the Columbine movie, the 911 movie and the Health Care movie are loaded
with proven falsehoods. I don't know how much he distorted "Roger & Me".

just seems to me that so many of you that have same general beliefs accept everything
Moore feeds you in his movies. Like I said..have your views...but also do a little fact-checking yourself
to make sure the guy you're defending is credible.

and i didn't ignore the thread for the same reason you didn't ignore my posts.


IORR............but I like it!

Sweet Neo Con - You're either a multi millionaire or you don't even live in the USA. You're so clueless.

Michael Moore is nothing but an extreme BLOWHARD!!! Go away!!!!!

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bustedtrousers

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MKjan
The truth is the US healhtcare system is a sham. You may not like Moore because he is a fattie and hits hard, but the healthcare system is indeed a sham.

Did you read my first post? I clearly stated that I don't hate our healthcare (I happen to think it's some of the best in the world), but the system sucks because it's unaffordable, due to the current way of paying by of insurance, which most of us, including myself, can't afford. I thought I was pretty clear about that, and while sham isn't necessarily the word I would use, I don't feel any better about the "system" part of it then than you do.

As far as Michael Moore goes, I don't dislike him because he is a fattie and hits hard, but I do think it's kind of disingenuous of him to make a healthcare movie, pledge to lose weight and take better care of himself, and then not do it, which appears to be the case. I haven't seen that film, but many people feel one of the problems with healthcare in America is that so many of us eat crap, don't exercise, and end up like Mr. Moore as a result.

I haven't seen any of his movies since Fahrenheit 911 because that one scared the hell out of me, and just kind of turned me off on him. I think he is more about scaring people and pointing fingers, than coming up with solutions. If that's his intent, and through that he hopes to make change, that's all fine and well, but it no longer works for me. I'm tired of having the shit scared out of me. And I'm not someone who has his head buried in the sand, I keep up with what's going on as best I can. In other words, I already know we're basically f-ucked nine ways from Sunday on a lot of fronts, unless some significant changes start taking place, and I don't need to sit through a two hour gut-wrenching movie that says so over and over.

I don't hate Michael Moore, but after the 9/11 movie, I began to trust him less. I realize he's just doing what the other side does, which is to present things in a rather extreme, over the top way, to shock people into going along with them. He's pretty much said that's what he does, because there was noone on the left really doing that. But I'm so over that tactic at this point, that I don't really trust anyone who goes that route anymore, good or bad. That, and some things I've read about him, have made me not so fond of him.

bustedtrousers, my comment wasn't directed at you, but meant to just state my opinion on the healthcare system. People can slam Moore because he is a fattie and his take on issues is slanted. I don't care much about that stuff, but the issues
remain and despite his slant, he happens to be on the right side of the fence with these issues imo.

I'm not sure what to think of this thread because I don't know a lot about Michael Moore. other than he does what he does and believes and says it and that's that.

I'm wondering if this is to do with that little loud mouthed koont Marty with Shine A Light - would Michael Moore demand more of the Stones or stay away from such fictitious moments as the set list "drama"?

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Edith Grove

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colonial
Who is Michael Moore?

Left-wing filmmaker.

Yep !!You nailed the point ..

Same in France nowadays :
It's very easy to "bash" on one's country
Film is a young medium, at least compared to most other media. Painting, literature, dance,and theater .



I am a Frenchie ,as Mick affectionately called them in the Old Grey Whistle Test in 1977 .



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2010-09-26 21:16 by SwayStones.