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crumbling_mice

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diane d

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bmuseed
One last comment: Let me try and describe the atmosphere that was backstage or within about a 50 foot radius of the stage..as I said earlier, evil was in the air so much so that at one point I was hysterically told that a tower had collapsed and there were 30 to 40 people trapped under it. They were in immediate need of doctors and trying to get everyone to the medical tent. I ran everywhere I could and didn't find any facts to back it up. There was no collapsed tower and yet a lot of people believed it--maybe it was the acid.. It was hard to discern what was real and what wasn't until one of our security told me that they needed the ambulance as a man was stabbed.
I never heard gunfire (and based on the sound around the stage that doesn't mean there wasn't any gunfire) but was told there was a gun (it was turned over to the police by the Angels)

i was on the stage during the stones set and i didn't hear any gunshots either. no one i know who was there mentioned hearing gunshots.

HI Diane, you say you or anyone you knew who was there didn't hear any gunshots, do you think it would have been possible to have heard them if there had been any...what I mean is, was the music very loud - could it have drowned the noise of a gun?

i don't remember the music being *that* loud, at least by today's standards it wasn't. like bmused said, just because i didn't hear any, doesn't mean there weren't any. things were very chaotic and i was intent on keeping out of the HA's way. it just seems that someone would have mentioned it.

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CousinC
@ Diane

How come you was on that stage, Diane?

Can you tell us some more about what you remember from that day?

i'd been there since the evening before with a group of grateful dead friends and family helping out. what i remember about that day is in bill wyman's book.

do you feature in the Gimme Shelter movie?

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Eleanor Rigby
do you feature in the Gimme Shelter movie?

yeah , diane , are you at all visible somewhere and how did you come to help out ?
please tell us more.

Interesting thread,skipstone.

here is what Sonny Barger said in an interview by Paul DeRienzo.


[pdr.autono.net]



DeRienzo–What about the Rolling Stones. Altamont is like the hippie’s big downfall.

BARGER –They say that was the end of the Age of Aquarius, but actually to us it’s just another day in the life of a Hell’s Angel. A guy pulled a gun on us, he got killed and that’s the bottom line. We got movies of him shooting at us, we got movies of him getting killed and nobody went to jail for it. There was a trial, everybody was acquitted.


He din't say MH shot with his gun.



I am a Frenchie ,as Mick affectionately called them in the Old Grey Whistle Test in 1977 .

deltics, i have a screencapture with the flash , i'll email it to you

[www.ktvu.com]



Does Sonny Barger say at 2:57 :" The guy had a gun and then he shot " ?
Would he concede/admit anyhow that MH was killed if he hadn't shot ?



I am a Frenchie ,as Mick affectionately called them in the Old Grey Whistle Test in 1977 .

Sway, - I don't care much what Barger said.
He already told so much nonsense . .

Think he's dead by now.

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straycatblues73
deltics, i have a screencapture with the flash , i'll email it to you

Hi straycat and thanks for the pics.
To be honest, I still can't see any gun flash, maybe you could tell us where you think it is?





As far as I'm concerned, at least three people who were at the gig say that shots were fired, so that's good enough for me.
I was only thirteen at the time and living in Cornwall!


"As we say in England, it can get a bit trainspottery"

Barger is still alive.

[sonnybarger.com]

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Deltics

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straycatblues73
deltics, i have a screencapture with the flash , i'll email it to you

Hi straycat and thanks for the pics.
To be honest, I still can't see any gun flash, maybe you could tell us where you think it is?





As far as I'm concerned, at least three people who were at the gig say that shots were fired, so that's good enough for me.
I was only thirteen at the time and living in Cornwall!

Looks to me like both of his arms are pointing towards the ground in these pics.

Agreed with Edith Grove, watched it again and again, one couldn't see a flash and the movie is very dark.
One could see also that he hold the gun and a short time after he fall down,
when he stand up again, one couldn't see the gun anymore... just before his murder.

Here's the best I can do with this infamous picture



HMN

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SwayStones
[www.ktvu.com]



Does Sonny Barger say at 2:57 :" The guy had a gun and then he shot " ?
Would he concede/admit anyhow that MH was killed if he hadn't shot ?

silly question. oversimplifying the situation. not defending barger or rest of hells angels
but you seem overly sympathetic to a guy that was waving a loaded gun
around at a concert. sure some groups have a reputation for violence and
racism etc... but let's stick to what we know (or at least what was reported).
no need for hypothetical questions because it's equally possible that
MH could've done more damage with the loaded gun.

seems like you'd like to convict them (HAngels) no matter what.


IORR............but I like it!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2010-09-03 05:13 by sweet neo con.

Right after Under My Thumb, Keith starts yelling "we're splitting man,etc..." then one of the Hell's Angels rushes up to Keith and says "ya gotta guy out there with a gun shooting at the stage". And if a Hell's Angel said it, then by God I believe it!

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sweet neo con

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SwayStones
[www.ktvu.com]



Does Sonny Barger say at 2:57 :" The guy had a gun and then he shot " ?
Would he concede/admit anyhow that MH was killed if he hadn't shot ?

silly question. oversimplifying the situation. not defending barger or rest of hells angels
but you seem overly sympathetic to a guy that was waving a loaded gun
around at a concert. sure some groups have a reputation for violence and
racism etc... but let's stick to what we know (or at least what was reported).
no need for hypothetical questions because it's equally possible that
MH could've done more damage with the loaded gun.

seems like you'd like to convict them (HAngels) no matter what.

No it's much better to let the Angels get away with murder.

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sweet neo con

silly question. oversimplifying the situation. not defending barger or rest of hells angels
but you seem overly sympathetic to a guy that was waving a loaded gun
around at a concert. sure some groups have a reputation for violence and
racism etc... but let's stick to what we know (or at least what was reported).
no need for hypothetical questions because it's equally possible that
MH could've done more damage with the loaded gun.

seems like you'd like to convict them (HAngels) no matter what.

Hey sweet neo con !

I think you misunderstood me .Once again,don't forget your langage isn't mine .
.
Never mind,read me .


>>silly question<<
Are the following ones THAT silly ?


>>you seem overly sympathetic to a guy that was waving a loaded gun/oversimplifying the situation<<

I might "oversimpliflying the situtaion ":

For sure,and if you knew me ,I am far from being "overly sympathetic" to any guys who /that has a gun.
"We" Have to deal with this in France right now .

Although sometimes i wish I got one.Check the NCVS.
If you live in United States,you must know what I am talking about.
But i am sure you know how it could be offensive & an affront to the public decency to show up,back in the 69's with a white girl ?

This is a question .An answer would be welcom(d)e.





Going to a concert with a gun seems to me so "beyond comprehensible" ,unimaginable.

I've read many articles & threads from iorr but I had never found an answer to a question I asked many monthes ago on this board ;


How come Jagger wasn't scared (to ) being killed ?
He said once that's why he always moves and runs so much when he's on stage.
You can easily be shot when you face the audience,but barely it when you show your profile side.
Do you get what I mean ?
How do we know that Mr Hunter didn't want to kill Jagger ?

>>sure some groups have a reputation for violence and
racism etc.<<

"
Some groups" as you say have a reputation for racism.
Some groups as you call them won their reputation .

I 've never met a Hell Angel so I can't talk .

Mick Jagger Assassination Attempt

“LONDON (AP) A new BBC radio documentary says Rolling Stones star Mick Jagger dodged an assassination attempt in 1969. The program says Jagger was targeted by the motorcycle group Hells’ Angels after vowing not to use the Angels for concert security.”

.OK,I do know internet is b******t sometimes



I am a Frenchie ,as Mick affectionately called them in the Old Grey Whistle Test in 1977 .



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2010-09-03 19:42 by SwayStones.

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varv
Right after Under My Thumb, Keith starts yelling "we're splitting man,etc..." then one of the Hell's Angels rushes up to Keith and says "ya gotta guy out there with a gun shooting at the stage". And if a Hell's Angel said it, then by God I believe it!

no I disagree...the Angels could be saying that to Keith/Stones in defence of their tactics/bashings...to sort of reinforce their over-reaction to every scene...

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Jesse1960
What was the caliber of the gun? In a crowd of 300,000 people a .22 or .25, even a .32 the report would not have been as loud as a 357mag. or .45.

If the photo is authentic it kind of looks like a .357 from the size of the barrel, but I am no expert (dad was an amateur gunsmith). That would be a lot of fire power to carry around in public. Were bullets ever found? They had to have went somewhere, but I have know idea how far they went with a trajectory analysis back then. Amazing that no one was hit by bullets in that crowd.

If I remember correctly (and I see it alluded to in this thread), Rolling Stone really hyped the bullet/gun angle back in the day.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2010-09-03 20:22 by mckalk.

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SwayStones

I think you misunderstood me .Once again,don't forget your langage isn't mine .
.
Never mind,read me .


>>silly question<<
Are the following ones THAT silly ?


>>you seem overly sympathetic to a guy that was waving a loaded gun/oversimplifying the situation<<

I might "oversimpliflying the situtaion ":

For sure,and if you knew me ,I am far from being "overly sympathetic" to any guys who /that has a gun.
"We" Have to deal with this in France right now .

Although sometimes i wish I got one.Check the NCVS.
If you live in United States,you must know what I am talking about.
But i am sure you know how it could be offensive & an affront to the public decency to show up,back in the 69's with a white girl ?

This is a question .An answer would be welcom(d)e.





Going to a concert with a gun seems to me so "beyond comprehensible" ,unimaginable.

I've read many articles & threads from iorr but I had never found an answer to a question I asked many monthes ago on this board ;


How come Jagger wasn't scared (to ) being killed ?
He said once that's why he always moves and runs so much when he's on stage.
You can easily be shot when you face the audience,but barely it when you show your profile side.
Do you get what I mean ?
How do we know that Mr Hunter didn't want to kill Jagger ?

>>sure some groups have a reputation for violence and
racism etc.<<

"
Some groups" as you say have a reputation for racism.
Some groups as you call them won their reputation .

I 've never met a Hell Angel so I can't talk .

Mick Jagger Assassination Attempt

“LONDON (AP) A new BBC radio documentary says Rolling Stones star Mick Jagger dodged an assassination attempt in 1969. The program says Jagger was targeted by the motorcycle group Hells’ Angels after vowing not to use the Angels for concert security.”

.OK,I do know internet is b******t sometimes

first of all...thanks for responding (again). yes..I realize that there might be misunderstandings
due to language etc... I hope I didn't falsely accuse you of something you did not mean to say...

re: Hell's Angels' reputation - i understand

re: racism - MH w/white girlfriend. I totally understand HA's reputation.

re: "How do we know that Mr Hunter didn't want to kill Jagger ?" - i agree..we don't know..but it may be true.

re: Jagger being targeted by Hells Angels - not sure about the context. Was this after
Altamont? And after the blame was placed on hells angels? I think that it recently came
out that Jagger had been a potential target (of Hell's Angels) after ALtamont.

To be brief, my point is that even though Meredith Hunter was very likely hassled
for having a white "girlfriend" that he was not attacked (& killed) until he pulled a gun.
Big difference.

And as you said...we don't know if MH's intent was to shoot at the stage (Jagger or others)..
and since the Angels were "hired" as security.....it was up to them to act. They should be judged
on that specific situation..not their reputation.

I think your original question was..."Would he concede/admit anyhow that MH was killed if he hadn't shot ?"
This is where there may have been confusion. Are you saying they would be likely to kill
him for racial reasons??? for waving a gun and not shooting it??? that they would not have
attacked a white guy waving a gun at a concert they were hired to "secure"?

To me ...waving a gun and shooting the gun are not very different in that specific situation.
If no shot was fired, HA was trying to prevent it from happening.
If he was firing shots, HA was trying to stop it from continuing.

Maybe we are in a agreement.


IORR............but I like it!

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sweetcharmedlife

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sweet neo con

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SwayStones
[www.ktvu.com]



Does Sonny Barger say at 2:57 :" The guy had a gun and then he shot " ?
Would he concede/admit anyhow that MH was killed if he hadn't shot ?

silly question. oversimplifying the situation. not defending barger or rest of hells angels
but you seem overly sympathetic to a guy that was waving a loaded gun
around at a concert. sure some groups have a reputation for violence and
racism etc... but let's stick to what we know (or at least what was reported).
no need for hypothetical questions because it's equally possible that
MH could've done more damage with the loaded gun.

seems like you'd like to convict them (HAngels) no matter what.

No it's much better to let the Angels get away with murder.

he had his trial and was found not guilty - seems like there are times when murder is justified and, judging by the outcome of the trial, when a guy is waving a loaded gun in a crowd of people, that appears to be one of those times



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2010-09-03 22:01 by LeonidP.

I was, of course, being sarcastic about believing anything a Hell's Angel says. But yes, the guy was trying to justify what was going on at that moment.Could be that in the heat of the moment that a guy pulling a gun became a guy shooting a gun. At any rate it doesn't justify all the other beatings that took place that day. On the other hand,and I'm not defending the Hell's Angels actions,nor do I want them to "get away with murder", but what is the proper security etiquette when someone pulls out a large handgun in a crowd of people? Mr.Hunter's death was tragic but I can't help but wonder if he hadn't pulled that gun, he might still be here today.

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sweet neo con
If no shot was fired, HA was trying to prevent it from happening.
If he was firing shots, HA was trying to stop it from continuing.

Maybe we are in a agreement.

I have serious doubts about the Hell Angels trying to prevent shots,fired or not .



I am a Frenchie ,as Mick affectionately called them in the Old Grey Whistle Test in 1977 .

Just thoughts about what happened with M.HUNTER.
No offense, No racism in my words
If it has been a white dude, I will have the same words.

Just see these screen caps that one could see in the movie ,
it was before he held the gun, and sorry to say, his behaviour looks already suspicious to me.





So , forgot the Angels, and just imagine other security guys in the crowd
watchin'at M.HUNTER !
What the f... he was doing with his hand in his pocket ???
Did he already had the gun in his hand and try to hide it for some reason
Very obscur to me

Another thought
Whatever the Angels did before , when HUNTER held that gun, they were the security guys, and they did what they did, HUNTER was ready to shoot, it's obvious !
To shoot who ??? that's the question, but definitively he was ready to shoot.
Look carefully at his girlfriend trying to stop him...
What could other security guys have done in front of a guy holding a gun, that's another question...

HMN

You missed your career Honestman...........great find



__________________________

Well, for one thing, they could just as easily thrown him to the ground...even with a gun I don't think it necessitated stabbing someone 5 times through the neck and back. And who the @#$%& would hire any kind of security and allow them to take acid and drink all day. I'm sorry but even with the recommendations of the Grateful Dead, hiring Hells Angels to sort your security is asking for trouble in one way or another. Oh, and I forgot, they of course, had to park their precious bikes directly in front of the stage....ffs. Stupidity of the highest order.

I think we all know this was a stupid thing to do crumbling_mice................100 times thinks go well .................and then if someone is waving a gun things got out of hand

__________________________

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Honestman
Just thoughts about what happened with M.HUNTER.
No offense, No racism in my words
If it has been a white dude, I will have the same words.

Just see these screen caps that one could see in the movie ,
it was before he held the gun, and sorry to say, his behaviour looks already suspicious to me.





So , forgot the Angels, and just imagine other security guys in the crowd
watchin'at M.HUNTER !
What the f... he was doing with his hand in his pocket ???
Did he already had the gun in his hand and try to hide it for some reason
Very obscur to me

Another thought
Whatever the Angels did before , when HUNTER held that gun, they were the security guys, and they did what they did, HUNTER was ready to shoot, it's obvious !
To shoot who ??? that's the question, but definitively he was ready to shoot.
Look carefully at his girlfriend trying to stop him...
What could other security guys have done in front of a guy holding a gun, that's another question...

So beating people over the heads with pool sticks and punching out the lead singer of one of the performing bands is not suspicious behavior. But you can determine from a still shot of a movie that hunter was acting suspiciously. AMAZING!!!!

What about the reports that MH was pushed away when he got too close to the stage (like a lot of people were)? Maybe after being pushed (plus being high on meth) is what foolishly made him pull the gun out.

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crumbling_mice
Well, for one thing, they could just as easily thrown him to the ground...

Not sure...but it was a possibility

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crumbling_mice
even with a gun I don't think it necessitated stabbing someone 5 times through the neck and back. And who the @#$%& would hire any kind of security and allow them to take acid and drink all day. I'm sorry but even with the recommendations of the Grateful Dead, hiring Hells Angels to sort your security is asking for trouble in one way or another. Oh, and I forgot, they of course, had to park their precious bikes directly in front of the stage....ffs. Stupidity of the highest order.

Agreed

HMN

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sweetcharmedlife
So beating people over the heads with pool sticks and punching out the lead singer of one of the performing bands is not suspicious behavior. But you can determine from a still shot of a movie that hunter was acting suspiciously. AMAZING!!!!

I think you don't get my point.
What the Angels did in Altamont was awful from the beginning till the end right !!!
And yes, on this part of the movie, IMO Hunter looks not clean, it's just my thought and of course I could be wrong, because I wasn't there.

HMN