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tatters
I'd be curious to know exactly which parts of what songs you think sound psychedelic and consistent with TSMR. It's true that SOME psychedelic influence continued to linger in pop music well into 1968. Donovan had a big hit with "Hurdy Gurdy Man" in August of that year, a month AFTER JJF had peaked, but I really don't hear anything even vaguely psychedelic on Beggars.

it's been heavily discussed on this board. Search His Majesty's posts and other threads uncovering how much brian actually did contribute to the album. (not saying that brian = the Stones' psychedelia, but that he's the starting point for getting it about this album.) The record is as heavy with sitar, mellotron, and other non-basic instruments as it is with slide guitar. "Street Fighting Man" doesn't sound basic to me. I'm not denying an element of back-to-basicsness, but that's not the whole story, and this solves the "WTF?" problem: there is none.

as Doxa says, how to categorize "Sympathy"?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2010-07-20 17:22 by cc.

First of all, this has been a really nice thread.

I think the Dylan influence can be overstated, but I don't think it was limited to Jigsaw Puzzle. Just thinking about the way Sympathy developed --if you remember the movie and those scenes of Jagger playing it on acoustic...pretty Dylanish, although (as someone else mentioned) the way the band ultimately arranged it took it to an entirely different place.... Also a little Dylan in Salt of the Earth, maybe.

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tatters

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cc
I think if you guys actually listen to Beggars Banquet, rather than think about how it fits in with rock history narratives, you'll hear that it's still considerably "psychedelic," and is far more consistent with Satanic Majesties than the "JJF-->back to basics-->Big 4" story suggests.

I'd be curious to know exactly which parts of what songs you think sound psychedelic and consistent with TSMR. It's true that SOME psychedelic influence continued to linger in pop music well into 1968. Donovan had a big hit with "Hurdy Gurdy Man" in August of that year, a month AFTER JJF had peaked, but I really don't hear anything even vaguely psychedelic on Beggars.

What tatters said - I don't hear any psychedelic stuff on there either. Hence the thread. The Dylan points are very valid.

"No Anchovies, Please"

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texas fan
First of all, this has been a really nice thread.

I think the Dylan influence can be overstated, but I don't think it was limited to Jigsaw Puzzle. Just thinking about the way Sympathy developed --if you remember the movie and those scenes of Jagger playing it on acoustic...pretty Dylanish, although (as someone else mentioned) the way the band ultimately arranged it took it to an entirely different place.... Also a little Dylan in Salt of the Earth, maybe.

Thanks, texas fan, you're obviously a man of wealth and taste!

"No Anchovies, Please"

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The GR
Brians influence and abilities were finished.

Brian's influence was the blues and that didn't really change even though he liked other kinds of music as well. His abilites were always there despite the drugs - even at RnR Circus when he is way down below he manages to shine on No Expectations.

Brian hated Their Satanic Majesties despite his nice additions on it and it's said that he expressed that to Mick and Keith. He was very happy when they left psychedelia and returned to the roots with JJF. In fact Brian plays on almost every track on Beggars Banquet and does a great job on the slide guitar as well as the mellotron and harmonica. Sadly, Brian became a broken man after his second bust later that year and didn't show up to sessions as before. As a result there's not much Brian on LIB. But on Beggars..he is definitely there.

Damn, I didn't know that there was so little love for Satanic. I love it and think that they really managed to make a nice psychedelic Stones-album. It is a bit overproduced but not unlistenable and there are some really nice songs there. I just wish that they had added We Love You and Dandelion on it.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2010-07-20 18:53 by tonterapi.

i've read most of this thread...sorry if i missed the answer to this question:

I was only a kid when Satanic Majesties was released...when the Stones released TSMR
was it seen by most fans as a one-off (following a trend)? Was it billed as the
next great thing from the Stones? Maybe it was "just another album" because in those
days bands released records more frequently (1-2 per year). All was probably
forgiven (by fans & critics) when Beggars Banquet was released a while later.


IORR............but I like it!

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71Tele


It wasn't so much the horns they were hemmed in by before Some Girls, more Billy Preston and a certain style and way of working that Preston came to personify.

I agree -- it was a certain style of working with the session musicians in general, that came to dominate the way they worked during this period -- listen to "Following The River" from the Exile bonus tracks, and it's clear to see, the original basic track is just Keith playing a minimal rhythm guitar, Charlie or Jimmy Miller playing minimal bare-bones drums, Bill or who ever on minimal bass -- and Nicky Hopkins playing ALL OVER THE PLACE, doing most of the "hard" studio work. Hopkins really dominates that track, not the Stones...When they got into this studio routine of "everybody waits around while Keith mucks about until he finds a riff," writing instrumental tracks to which vocals and overdubs would be added later, they tended to let the session guys play the complicated bits, which helped shape or form the songs, and it shows. In my opinion at least.

Other songs like Shine A Light, Winter, If You Really Want To Be My Friend, etc. all show the same type of thing happening. Also Mick Taylor and Ronnie Wood stepped in to fill that void, their contributions shine on Moonlight Mile or Hey Negrita etc. It's great music, but so much of that '70s stuff is really, the session musicians doing the "heavy lifting" in the studio.

But definitely, by early 1968, there was a "back to the basics" vibe in the air in music -- no question about it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2010-07-20 19:33 by Turning To Gold.

It was the Band and in particular, as stated above, The Basement Tapes which drove the writing and country feel of Beggars Banquet...Brian was on his last legs and so Keith steered it where he wanted it to be...and thank god he did, after ATSMR things had to go in a new direction and acoustic guitars lead the way. I have the outtakes - it is a brilliant recording, several versions of many of the songs and all quality.

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tonterapi

Damn, I didn't know that there was so little love for Satanic. I love it and think that they really managed to make a nice psychedelic Stones-album. It is a bit overproduced but not unlistenable and there are some really nice songs there. I just wish that they had added We Love You and Dandelion on it.

I like Satanic a lot, but Dandelion surely doesn't belong on it, musical and lyrical wise. We Love You of course does. I also don't qualify Satanic as 'psychedelic', though it's usually done.

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tonterapi

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The GR
Brians influence and abilities were finished.

Brian's influence was the blues and that didn't really change even though he liked other kinds of music as well. His abilites were always there despite the drugs - even at RnR Circus when he is way down below he manages to shine on No Expectations.

Brian hated Their Satanic Majesties despite his nice additions on it and it's said that he expressed that to Mick and Keith. He was very happy when they left psychedelia and returned to the roots with JJF. In fact Brian plays on almost every track on Beggars Banquet and does a great job on the slide guitar as well as the mellotron and harmonica. Sadly, Brian became a broken man after his second bust later that year and didn't show up to sessions as before. As a result there's not much Brian on LIB. But on Beggars..he is definitely there.

Damn, I didn't know that there was so little love for Satanic. I love it and think that they really managed to make a nice psychedelic Stones-album. It is a bit overproduced but not unlistenable and there are some really nice songs there. I just wish that they had added We Love You and Dandelion on it.

If they had taken off GOMPER,and '...See What Happens', and put on We Love You and Dandelion, (and Child of the Moon) you would have had an absolute CLASSIC psychedelia album which I personally would have preferred to SPLHCB.

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treaclefingers

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tonterapi

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The GR
Brians influence and abilities were finished.

Brian's influence was the blues and that didn't really change even though he liked other kinds of music as well. His abilites were always there despite the drugs - even at RnR Circus when he is way down below he manages to shine on No Expectations.

Brian hated Their Satanic Majesties despite his nice additions on it and it's said that he expressed that to Mick and Keith. He was very happy when they left psychedelia and returned to the roots with JJF. In fact Brian plays on almost every track on Beggars Banquet and does a great job on the slide guitar as well as the mellotron and harmonica. Sadly, Brian became a broken man after his second bust later that year and didn't show up to sessions as before. As a result there's not much Brian on LIB. But on Beggars..he is definitely there.

Damn, I didn't know that there was so little love for Satanic. I love it and think that they really managed to make a nice psychedelic Stones-album. It is a bit overproduced but not unlistenable and there are some really nice songs there. I just wish that they had added We Love You and Dandelion on it.

If they had taken off GOMPER,and '...See What Happens', and put on We Love You and Dandelion, (and Child of the Moon) you would have had an absolute CLASSIC psychedelia album which I personally would have preferred to SPLHCB.

Well said.

"No Anchovies, Please"

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Elmo Lewis

What tatters said - I don't hear any psychedelic stuff on there either. Hence the thread. The Dylan points are very valid.

"psychedelic" is just a label for experimentalism. How would you describe "Street Fighting Man" (the studio cut, not the live versions)? I wouldn't call it back-to-basics, rootsy, or anything of the sort.

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cc

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Elmo Lewis

What tatters said - I don't hear any psychedelic stuff on there either. Hence the thread. The Dylan points are very valid.

"psychedelic" is just a label for experimentalism. How would you describe "Street Fighting Man" (the studio cut, not the live versions)? I wouldn't call it back-to-basics, rootsy, or anything of the sort.

"Physhedelic" (to me) is more a 'Summer Of Love/Insence and Peppermints' type thing.

SFM has nothing to do with love/peace/flower power.

"No Anchovies, Please"



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2010-07-20 23:56 by Elmo Lewis.

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kleermaker
I like Satanic a lot, but Dandelion surely doesn't belong on it, musical and lyrical wise. We Love You of course does. I also don't qualify Satanic as 'psychedelic', though it's usually done.

I think that the lyrical content Dandelion fits well with songs like She's A Rainbow and Gomper. It has a sort Syd Barrett quality to it IMHO.
But I know what you mean with that it isn't a "true" psychedelic album. It's more experimental. Anyhow, it was the closest the Stones ever came to psychedelia and there are parts of it that fits right in with Piper at the Gates of Dawn and Sgt. Pepper me thinks.

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treaclefingers
If they had taken off GOMPER,and '...See What Happens', and put on We Love You and Dandelion, (and Child of the Moon) you would have had an absolute CLASSIC psychedelia album which I personally would have preferred to SPLHCB.

Well, I'm one of the few that likes Gomper so I would let it stay. Other than that I totally agree with you.

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Elmo Lewis
"Physhedelic" (to me) is more a 'Summer Of Love/Insence and Peppermints' type thing.

SFM has nothing to do with love/peace/flower power.

I find british psychedelia to be more like a wimsy look at childhood or everyday situations while the US had the wear flowers in your hair and get high in the park thing. I may be wrong on that one but I do find them different from each other - at least early on. Therefor I think that songs like Sing This Song All Together, She's a Rainbow, Dandelion, Child of the Moon and Gomper are at least related to psychedelic wave that hit England in 66/67.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2010-07-21 00:42 by tonterapi.

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Elmo Lewis

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cc

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Elmo Lewis

What tatters said - I don't hear any psychedelic stuff on there either. Hence the thread. The Dylan points are very valid.

"psychedelic" is just a label for experimentalism. How would you describe "Street Fighting Man" (the studio cut, not the live versions)? I wouldn't call it back-to-basics, rootsy, or anything of the sort.

"Physhedelic" (to me) is more a 'Summer Of Love/Insence and Peppermints' type thing.

SFM has nothing to do with love/peace/flower power.

ah - so try thinking less about the Time-Life overtones and just listen to the musical elements. "SFM," just as an example, sounds a lot closer to 1967 than the "back-to-basics" label would suggest.

"In fact Brian plays on almost every track on Beggars Banquet and does a great job on the slide guitar as well as the mellotron and harmonica. Sadly, Brian became a broken man after his second bust later that year and didn't show up to sessions as before. As a result there's not much Brian on LIB. But on Beggars..he is definitely there."


Brian may have been "there" playing the guitar, but Mick and Keith ensured that none of his playing got onto the Beggar's Banquet album with the one exception of No Expectations.

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Elmo Lewis

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tatters

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cc
I think if you guys actually listen to Beggars Banquet, rather than think about how it fits in with rock history narratives, you'll hear that it's still considerably "psychedelic," and is far more consistent with Satanic Majesties than the "JJF-->back to basics-->Big 4" story suggests.

I'd be curious to know exactly which parts of what songs you think sound psychedelic and consistent with TSMR. It's true that SOME psychedelic influence continued to linger in pop music well into 1968. Donovan had a big hit with "Hurdy Gurdy Man" in August of that year, a month AFTER JJF had peaked, but I really don't hear anything even vaguely psychedelic on Beggars.

What tatters said - I don't hear any psychedelic stuff on there either. Hence the thread. The Dylan points are very valid.

"Child Of The Moon" is psychedelic, but that was definitely the last time the Stones ever went down that road. Nothing on Beggars sounds anything like that. Anyone know when COTM was recorded? Was it March '68, same as JJF? Or was it a leftover from TSMR? Strange, if it's March '68, but maybe the Stones weren't yet completely convinced that psychedelia was over. Maybe they were hedging their bets, keeping their hand in that particular game, just in case. It's like that single has one foot in '68 (JJF, the A-side) and one foot in '67 (COTM, the B-side). There a Beatles single that's like that, too. Lady Madonna/The Inner Light, recorded in Feb. '68, and released in March.

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Elmo Lewis

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cc

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Elmo Lewis

What tatters said - I don't hear any psychedelic stuff on there either. Hence the thread. The Dylan points are very valid.

"psychedelic" is just a label for experimentalism. How would you describe "Street Fighting Man" (the studio cut, not the live versions)? I wouldn't call it back-to-basics, rootsy, or anything of the sort.

"Physhedelic" (to me) is more a 'Summer Of Love/Insence and Peppermints' type thing.

SFM has nothing to do with love/peace/flower power.

That's how I see it, too. I mentioned "Hurdy Gurdy Man" (which then got stuck in my head ALL DAY) as being a psychedelic hit from August '68, the same month that SFM was released as a single. "'Tis then that the hurdy gurdy man comes singing songs of love" is psychedelic. "What can a poor boy do, 'cept to sing for a rock and roll band" is not.

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cc

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Elmo Lewis

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cc

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Elmo Lewis

What tatters said - I don't hear any psychedelic stuff on there either. Hence the thread. The Dylan points are very valid.

"psychedelic" is just a label for experimentalism. How would you describe "Street Fighting Man" (the studio cut, not the live versions)? I wouldn't call it back-to-basics, rootsy, or anything of the sort.

"Physhedelic" (to me) is more a 'Summer Of Love/Insence and Peppermints' type thing.

SFM has nothing to do with love/peace/flower power.

ah - so try thinking less about the Time-Life overtones and just listen to the musical elements. "SFM," just as an example, sounds a lot closer to 1967 than the "back-to-basics" label would suggest.

Just the bit at the end, where Brian is adding his exotic flourishes. Actually, Mick has said that it was the Velvet Underground who heavily influenced the sound of the electric guitars on Beggars. I think Stray Cat Blues was the track he specifically mentioned, but the ear-piercing solo in SFTD sounds like something right out of White Light/White Heat, and it don't get any LESS psychedelic than that!

ok - forget the word "psychedelic," with all its pseudo-political implications. Just compare the arrangements on Beggars to those on Satanic. I think you'll find them more similar than the premise of this thread would suggest.

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Elmo Lewis

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cc

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Elmo Lewis

What tatters said - I don't hear any psychedelic stuff on there either. Hence the thread. The Dylan points are very valid.

"psychedelic" is just a label for experimentalism. How would you describe "Street Fighting Man" (the studio cut, not the live versions)? I wouldn't call it back-to-basics, rootsy, or anything of the sort.

"Physhedelic" (to me) is more a 'Summer Of Love/Insence and Peppermints' type thing.

SFM has nothing to do with love/peace/flower power.

What's cool about JJF and SFM studio versions were they were on the backside curve of psychedelia, so some cool sounds they would never use again (Indian instruments, etc) wedded to hard rockers. Another way of saying it is that they were the last songs to have identifiable Brian parts, yet also part of the "new" classic Stones sound. Great period, though very brief.

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tatters
I think Stray Cat Blues was the track he specifically mentioned, but the ear-piercing solo in SFTD sounds like something right out of White Light/White Heat, and it don't get any LESS psychedelic than that!

Yep, the intro of Stray Cat is very influenced by Velvet Underground´s "Heroin".

Great thread by the way. Totally subscribe to the many valid quotes about the Basement tape.

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mitchflorida
Brian may have been "there" playing the guitar, but Mick and Keith ensured that none of his playing got onto the Beggar's Banquet album with the one exception of No Expectations.

Yes, Goddards filming of Sympathy For the Devil comes to mind and photos taken during sessions at the time for BB often show him with a guitar in his hand. I think that he did play more guitar on BB but, as you point out, those never made it to the final mix.

I meant that he is "there" in the sense that you can hear him, in one way or another on almost every track on BB. AFAIK he appears on 7/10 tracks.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2010-07-21 12:23 by tonterapi.

I've loved this thread, loads of valid and interesting points.
Regarding The Basement Tapes, if they did indeed influence The Stones (or anyone else for that matter) it's purely coincidental. As stated, the tracks weren't recorded at all with the sole intent of distributing, it's just the way things panned out. The Band members and Dylan themselves have said it was simply the guys getting together, smoking a shitload of pot and goofing around. A lot of the stuff they did is whimsical/throwaway, a lot of it is pure class.
The John Wesley Harding album is generally thought to have have some of, if not the best, of Dylan's writing. The stripped down sound of JWH was again accidental. Dylan said he'd lost contact with the big studio session cats of the time, so recorded it the way he did. Afterwards, thinking it needed more oooomph he asked Robbie Robertson to listen and offer some lead guitar overdubs. Robbie declined, saying he thought the album was fine as it was, (good on him) so Dylan clearly wasn't trying to get a back to basics sound, it just happened.

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tatters

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Elmo Lewis

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Elmo Lewis

What tatters said - I don't hear any psychedelic stuff on there either. Hence the thread. The Dylan points are very valid.

"psychedelic" is just a label for experimentalism. How would you describe "Street Fighting Man" (the studio cut, not the live versions)? I wouldn't call it back-to-basics, rootsy, or anything of the sort.

"Physhedelic" (to me) is more a 'Summer Of Love/Insence and Peppermints' type thing.

SFM has nothing to do with love/peace/flower power.

ah - so try thinking less about the Time-Life overtones and just listen to the musical elements. "SFM," just as an example, sounds a lot closer to 1967 than the "back-to-basics" label would suggest.

Just the bit at the end, where Brian is adding his exotic flourishes. Actually, Mick has said that it was the Velvet Underground who heavily influenced the sound of the electric guitars on Beggars. I think Stray Cat Blues was the track he specifically mentioned, but the ear-piercing solo in SFTD sounds like something right out of White Light/White Heat, and it don't get any LESS psychedelic than that!

That's a really good point! RE: about the piercing guitar solo on SFTD (possibly) being influenced by The Velvet Underground. I'm already aware of the famous quote by Jagger in the 1970s, when he claimed Stray Cat Blues was influenced by The Velvets... But I have never thought of the SFTD solo in that context before.

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cc
ok - forget the word "psychedelic," with all its pseudo-political implications. Just compare the arrangements on Beggars to those on Satanic. I think you'll find them more similar than the premise of this thread would suggest.

The only similarity between TSMR and Beggars is that (some) of the same musicians play on both albums. Beggars and LIB are similar, two of a perfect pair, in fact, but Beggars and TSMR are always going to be regarded as polar opposites. That's just the way it is.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2010-07-21 17:31 by tatters.

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tonterapi

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kleermaker
I like Satanic a lot, but Dandelion surely doesn't belong on it, musical and lyrical wise. We Love You of course does. I also don't qualify Satanic as 'psychedelic', though it's usually done.

I think that the lyrical content Dandelion fits well with songs like She's A Rainbow and Gomper. It has a sort Syd Barrett quality to it IMHO.
But I know what you mean with that it isn't a "true" psychedelic album. It's more experimental. Anyhow, it was the closest the Stones ever came to psychedelia and there are parts of it that fits right in with Piper at the Gates of Dawn and Sgt. Pepper me thinks.

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treaclefingers
If they had taken off GOMPER,and '...See What Happens', and put on We Love You and Dandelion, (and Child of the Moon) you would have had an absolute CLASSIC psychedelia album which I personally would have preferred to SPLHCB.

Well, I'm one of the few that likes Gomper so I would let it stay. Other than that I totally agree with you.

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Elmo Lewis
"Physhedelic" (to me) is more a 'Summer Of Love/Insence and Peppermints' type thing.

SFM has nothing to do with love/peace/flower power.

I find british psychedelia to be more like a wimsy look at childhood or everyday situations while the US had the wear flowers in your hair and get high in the park thing. I may be wrong on that one but I do find them different from each other - at least early on. Therefor I think that songs like Sing This Song All Together, She's a Rainbow, Dandelion, Child of the Moon and Gomper are at least related to psychedelic wave that hit England in 66/67.

Interesting question what Satanic can be called. Though commonly done it's too easy to call it simply psychedelic imo. Strictly taken 'psychedelic' comes from the two old Greek words psyche (mind) and the verb deloö (to open up, to make public etc.). But Satanic doesn't open up one's mind imo (perhaps there's some Pink Floyd instrumental music that does, forgot the name of the album). As said Satanic is a combination of experimental rock, flower power and mild or ironical 'critical of society' songs with some Indian music influences. That way Street FM can be seen as a follow up of some Satanic songs (2000 Man, On With The Show), while the SFM live versions of 1973 with 'crazy' Taylor guitar more remind of experimental rock than the BB-studio version.

Anyway, Dandelion is indeed flower power, just like Child OTM is. We Love You is a fine combination of flower power and mild/ironical society criticism. So in the end I agree with tonterapi that all these three songs could also be put on Satanic. Second conclusion is that the breach between Satanic and BB is less drastic than it seems at first sight. BB has also some 'critical of society' songs and has also some experimental traits.

The Rolling Stones were still evolving, no musical revolution between Aftermath, Buttons, Satanic and the so called big studio four (I would say big five, GHS included).

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tatters
The only similarity between TSMR and Beggars is that (some) of the same musicians play on both albums. Beggars and LIB are similar, two of a perfect pair, in fact, but Beggars and TSMR are always going to be regarded as polar opposites. That's just the way it is.

great, conventional wisdom successfully upheld. Let's have a thread next about Some Girls is the Stones rising to meet the challenge of punk. That would be really interesting.

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mitchflorida

Brian may have been "there" playing the guitar, but Mick and Keith ensured that none of his playing got onto the Beggar's Banquet album with the one exception of No Expectations.

That may or may not be true, but he certainly contributes harmonica to 'Parachute Woman' and 'Prodigal Son'.

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kleermaker
The Rolling Stones were still evolving, no musical revolution between Aftermath, Buttons, Satanic and the so called big studio four (I would say big five, GHS included).

no, your dialectics are far too subtle to account for the Big Bang of the Big 4. It's got to be that the Stones turning into the anti-Stones on Satanic Majesties leads to a grand synthesis in 1968.