Tell Me :
Talk
Indeed.
With this in mind and focusing on the Brian Jones era, for almost all of their music we are clueless as to the completeness of the ideas initially presented by Mick and/or Keith at rehearsals and recording sessions. We are clueless as to whether or not the others had ideas which were used and/or kick started the writing of songs. We are clueless as to whether or not they helped with melodies or came up with melodies which were used on released songs.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-03-30 19:40 by His Majesty.
At least in terms of dubbing, it might have had to do with the vision they had for the songs they were writing, and they thought in certain cases, most notably SFTD, that only Keith for instance could execute the guitars and bass the way he heard it in his head. As for wiping tracks/ideas by Taylor and Wood, there's no way to improve on their playing with Keith dubbing over them, so it would likely be to eliminate the evidence of their creative contributions to the early stages of a song's development, should they--particularly Taylor--be interested in claiming writing credits. Bill has cited the numerous examples in Stone Alone of his bass playing having been wiped and dubbed, and the inaudible strumming of Brian on acoustic is self-evident in One Plus One, but which are specific examples in the case of Taylor and Wood?
Well, this guy claims otherwise but what the heck he knows... (besides, as this thread shows we should not believe one word these so called Rolling Stones claim about the origin of their songs, especially concerning riffs...
):
(I've written riffs that people assume are Keith's.) Brown Sugar. That was the first one I did. I've done many since.
- Mick Jagger, 1994
- Doxa
With the exception of slide playing up to Beggars Banquet I think it would be fair to say that Keith was a better more creative guitar player during 1964 - 1969.
...
Brian's guitar playing sounds damaged to me by 1967... Combination of hand injury and not playing much?
Take a listen to Brian playing acoustic guitar on early takes of The Lantern. Sounds to me like someone who doesn't play much, lots of fret buzz and not properly held down chords.
Keith takes over and we get a more confident and usable acoustic guitar playing.
In this instance it was right for Keith to play acoustic guitar.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2013-03-30 22:19 by His Majesty.
A specific example of Taylor would be YaYa's, his rhythm guitar on let's say SFYTD,is great, he's hardly audible though. His playing skills are not used for a 100% on the studio albums: we only have to listen to the boots to hear what Taylor was capable of. But then indeed, what was wiped? As far as I know several alternate takes with an audible Taylor got blocked on You-Tube. Was he that bad?
I would say that in most cases they were not trying to sound "trademark" but they were still pretty much in the process of creating that "trademark". So I think it is the musical ideas and visions - especially Keith's - that they wanted to accomplish. They know how they wanted to sound, and trusted (only) on their own intuitions and skills.
- Doxa
So Keith trusting his own intuition only could have been the key to succes, but not necessary.. let's say the GT's chose the save way, and left the other parts to players they thought they were best at. Must have been kind of frustrating for Bill, Ron, Jones and Taylor, to a certain extend... But that's history by now.
That doesn´t mean Mick wrote the riff as it wound up on record
Brown Sugar (Riff Inspiration by Mick Jagger)
The Rolling Stones: anything Keith Richards did - no matter how little, even barely farted to the direction of the song - means that it is substantive and essential to it; so it is created and original and credited to him as far as that song or riff go. For anyone else that kind of contribution is "just arrangement" "inspiration"...
So simple is the logic of his true believers... double standards, oh no....
- Doxa
Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 2013-03-31 20:29 by Doxa.
Aw gash, this it True Believism in its worst, my friend Dandie.
Of course, the way Keith Richards plays his guitar... His idiosyncratic touch is something we Stones fans love and immeditealy recognize as the essence of the Rolling Stones sound and all. The timing, everything...
But True Believism says that if Mick Jagger - you know Mick Jagger of The Rolling Stones, the another half of the Glimmer Twins - say he wrote the riff, he is a full of shit. He is a liar, they say.
Is it because they are guitar players, or so big fans of that, and especially blindly fond of Keith's idiosyncratic touch, that they can't see that creating a riff or a song has nothing to do with what a wonderful arrangement, that is, what a wonderful personal interpretation one can do out of that idea - the idea someone else has created in the first place?
Well, the ideology of guitar obsessed Keith Richards True Believism says that if someone else, say, what Brian Jones or Mick Taylor or Nicky Hopkins do with the "initial" idea, created by the original master, is only only "arranging the idea", and nothing to with being "instrumental" to the song. Be the song, say, "Paint It Black, "She's a Rainbow" or "Moonlight Mile".
But when Saint Keith takes Mick's riff - Mick claims he, Mick, have invented - or takes Wyman's riff - the one Bill claims having invented - and plays it in a Rolling Stones recording, it becomes "Keith's riff".
That is the logic of his true believers.
Before the guitar experts start to bullshit: the initial idea of teh riff of "Brown Sugar" is not any rocket science - Keith's way of arranging and taking the shit out of it, surely is. But it is Mick's riff, period. Quite easy a co-product while writing "Brown Sugar" with an open tuning. (Besides, what Jagger plays to Turner family is not introducing any riffs but just showing how the basic song goes.)
Double standards.
- Doxa
Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 2013-04-01 03:04 by Doxa.
You´re misunderstanding something here.
The world isn't this black and white.
Besides, we can discuss Mick and Keith's song writing partnership, and how just it is, all day - but there is a partnership. That's why Mick is in on Ruby Tuesday and Keith gets credit on Far Away Eyes. It cannot be Compared with whether Hopkins created something on Shes A Rainbow or not.
I really think Mick is talking about writing Brown Sugar, with an embryo riff included, in that interview - and not writing the riff as it ended up on the recording, which of course is killer.
Where bad critique's due, Ill be there - mind you, be it mick or keith or anyone else.
Disappointing that you dont know that...
Your examples are not the best ones at what you´re trying to say, imo (PIB, SAR and MM). There is no doubt who wrote the two former ones. MM was written by Jagger (loosely based on a Keith-sketch), according to Taylor, who only claimed to have set up the string arrangements.
The melody on SAR was hummed to Hopkins by Keith. The PIB-riff was written by Keith, and transferred to sitar by Brian.
We don´t have the exact proofs on all the song writing by members of the Stones - in fact, we have very little. Therefore, keep in mind that calling me a true believer and a person with double standards very well could be way off here, if you were wrong. I don´t expect anyone to trust my musical instincts on these matters, however it should be evident that I´m not an airhead with a hard on for every chord Keith strums. The IORR archive would reveal that pretty clearly
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-04-01 10:07 by DandelionPowderman.
In the case of Wyman it was simply the case of him not being around enough, so bass parts where played by Richards, but also by Taylor or Wood.
As for Taylor -he was never the best of rhtyhm guitarists, often clashing with Richards' rhythm playing, and I think it is a simple matter of Richards not liking Taylor's rhythm playing too much. I think Richards indeed has had the feeling he could improve a track by wiping Taylor's rhtyhm playing and adding his own.
Mathijs
It is true for EOMS -Bill is clearly on Rip This Joint and ADTL, but when the second (double) bass was added his credits disapeared.
Mathijs
Main riff starts at 18 seconds and is Mick's.
Intro is the bit played up until the 18 second mark, and could possibly be Keith's add on.
Or maybe Ian Stewarts add ons.
Keith said Taylor wasnt a rhythm guitarist and that's just pure BS. What Keith meant was that Keith was the best rhtyhm guitarist, which is true.
The intro is not the main riff.
The main riff is the Acoustic doubled part (Eb, C, Ab, Bb, C) and it recurs throughout the song and Bobby Keys plays the Sax solo over it.
The intro lasts for about 15 seconds and is at the start of the song and never heard again (C, G, C, F, C, I think).
The BS intro could easily be dropped and no one would care too much, just like the Stones drop the JJF intro live.
Once again,
Main riff starts at 18 seconds and is Mick's.
Intro is the bit played up until the 18 second mark, and could possibly be Keith's add on.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-04-01 12:32 by howled.
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Re: I wanna hear Brian
Posted by:
Jayce
()
Date: March 30, 2013 18:05
"Stone Alone" came out long after Philip Norman's "Symphony for the Devil," which was the first pace I remember reading about Bill's role in "Jumpin' Jack Flash."
Re: I wanna hear Brian
Posted by:
2000 LYFH
()
Date: March 30, 2013 18:42
As long as we are talking about credits, Bill also thought they were wrong for EOMS:
BassPlayer Magazine: One of the problems on the original album was that your bass was buried in the mix.
Bill: Well, they’d always sink me way deep. There would always be separate mixes, and then they’d argue about which ones to use. I didn’t get involved, but yeah, I used to get fairly disappointed when you couldn’t bloody well hear my bass. But they wanted more of Keith’s guitar, or whatever. I suppose I just lived with it.
I also didn’t always get the proper credits I deserved, either. When you read the back of the Exile album, it says someone else is playing bass on songs when it was actually me. Mick would always get the credits wrong, and it was too late to change them. So that was annoying, as well.
But I guess Bill has it all wrong here and is flat out lying!
BassPlayer Magazine: One of the problems on the original album was that your bass was buried in the mix.
Bill: Well, they’d always sink me way deep. There would always be separate mixes, and then they’d argue about which ones to use. I didn’t get involved, but yeah, I used to get fairly disappointed when you couldn’t bloody well hear my bass. But they wanted more of Keith’s guitar, or whatever. I suppose I just lived with it.
I also didn’t always get the proper credits I deserved, either. When you read the back of the Exile album, it says someone else is playing bass on songs when it was actually me. Mick would always get the credits wrong, and it was too late to change them. So that was annoying, as well.
But I guess Bill has it all wrong here and is flat out lying!
Re: I wanna hear Brian
Posted by:
His Majesty
()
Date: March 30, 2013 19:37
Quote
howled
When the Stones worked as they did, with everyone involved with adding their bits to the song, well unless they add chords/melody/lyrics to it then it's just basically arranging...
Indeed.
With this in mind and focusing on the Brian Jones era, for almost all of their music we are clueless as to the completeness of the ideas initially presented by Mick and/or Keith at rehearsals and recording sessions. We are clueless as to whether or not the others had ideas which were used and/or kick started the writing of songs. We are clueless as to whether or not they helped with melodies or came up with melodies which were used on released songs.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-03-30 19:40 by His Majesty.
Re: I wanna hear Brian
Posted by:
VT22
()
Date: March 30, 2013 21:37
I still wonder why Keith or Jagger wiped or dubbed tracks/ideas played by Taylor, Jones, Wood or Wymann? Was it their ego, or them being afraid not to sound trademark Keith- trademark Stones, or did they really think they were the better players?
Re: I wanna hear Brian
Posted by:
stonehearted
()
Date: March 30, 2013 21:49
Quote
VT22
I still wonder why Keith or Jagger wiped or dubbed tracks/ideas played by Taylor, Jones, Wood or Wymann? Was it their ego, or them being afraid not to sound trademark Keith- trademark Stones, or did they really think they were the better players?
At least in terms of dubbing, it might have had to do with the vision they had for the songs they were writing, and they thought in certain cases, most notably SFTD, that only Keith for instance could execute the guitars and bass the way he heard it in his head. As for wiping tracks/ideas by Taylor and Wood, there's no way to improve on their playing with Keith dubbing over them, so it would likely be to eliminate the evidence of their creative contributions to the early stages of a song's development, should they--particularly Taylor--be interested in claiming writing credits. Bill has cited the numerous examples in Stone Alone of his bass playing having been wiped and dubbed, and the inaudible strumming of Brian on acoustic is self-evident in One Plus One, but which are specific examples in the case of Taylor and Wood?
Re: I wanna hear Brian
Posted by:
Doxa
()
Date: March 30, 2013 21:52
Quote
DandelionPowderman
Keith wrote the Brown Sugar riff, Mick wrote the song
Well, this guy claims otherwise but what the heck he knows... (besides, as this thread shows we should not believe one word these so called Rolling Stones claim about the origin of their songs, especially concerning riffs...
):(I've written riffs that people assume are Keith's.) Brown Sugar. That was the first one I did. I've done many since.
- Mick Jagger, 1994
- Doxa
Re: I wanna hear Brian
Posted by:
His Majesty
()
Date: March 30, 2013 22:10
Quote
VT22
I still wonder why Keith or Jagger wiped or dubbed tracks/ideas played by Taylor, Jones, Wood or Wymann? Was it their ego, or them being afraid not to sound trademark Keith- trademark Stones, or did they really think they were the better players?
With the exception of slide playing up to Beggars Banquet I think it would be fair to say that Keith was a better more creative guitar player during 1964 - 1969.
...
Brian's guitar playing sounds damaged to me by 1967... Combination of hand injury and not playing much?
Take a listen to Brian playing acoustic guitar on early takes of The Lantern. Sounds to me like someone who doesn't play much, lots of fret buzz and not properly held down chords.
Keith takes over and we get a more confident and usable acoustic guitar playing.
In this instance it was right for Keith to play acoustic guitar.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2013-03-30 22:19 by His Majesty.
Re: I wanna hear Brian
Posted by:
VT22
()
Date: March 30, 2013 22:12
Quote
stoneheartedQuote
VT22
I still wonder why Keith or Jagger wiped or dubbed tracks/ideas played by Taylor, Jones, Wood or Wymann? Was it their ego, or them being afraid not to sound trademark Keith- trademark Stones, or did they really think they were the better players?
At least in terms of dubbing, it might have had to do with the vision they had for the songs they were writing, and they thought in certain cases, most notably SFTD, that only Keith for instance could execute the guitars and bass the way he heard it in his head. As for wiping tracks/ideas by Taylor and Wood, there's no way to improve on their playing with Keith dubbing over them, so it would likely be to eliminate the evidence of their creative contributions to the early stages of a song's development, should they--particularly Taylor--be interested in claiming writing credits. Bill has cited the numerous examples in Stone Alone of his bass playing having been wiped and dubbed, and the inaudible strumming of Brian on acoustic is self-evident in One Plus One, but which are specific examples in the case of Taylor and Wood?
A specific example of Taylor would be YaYa's, his rhythm guitar on let's say SFYTD,is great, he's hardly audible though. His playing skills are not used for a 100% on the studio albums: we only have to listen to the boots to hear what Taylor was capable of. But then indeed, what was wiped? As far as I know several alternate takes with an audible Taylor got blocked on You-Tube. Was he that bad?
Re: I wanna hear Brian
Posted by:
Doxa
()
Date: March 30, 2013 22:21
Quote
VT22
I still wonder why Keith or Jagger wiped or dubbed tracks/ideas played by Taylor, Jones, Wood or Wymann? Was it their ego, or them being afraid not to sound trademark Keith- trademark Stones, or did they really think they were the better players?
I would say that in most cases they were not trying to sound "trademark" but they were still pretty much in the process of creating that "trademark". So I think it is the musical ideas and visions - especially Keith's - that they wanted to accomplish. They know how they wanted to sound, and trusted (only) on their own intuitions and skills.
- Doxa
Re: I wanna hear Brian
Posted by:
His Majesty
()
Date: March 30, 2013 22:34
Mick and Keith became executive producers I think even during the time of ALO.
They were the only ones who attended and got involved in all final mixing sessions etc.
They were the only ones who attended and got involved in all final mixing sessions etc.
Re: I wanna hear Brian
Posted by:
VT22
()
Date: March 30, 2013 22:39
Quote
DoxaQuote
VT22
I still wonder why Keith or Jagger wiped or dubbed tracks/ideas played by Taylor, Jones, Wood or Wymann? Was it their ego, or them being afraid not to sound trademark Keith- trademark Stones, or did they really think they were the better players?
I would say that in most cases they were not trying to sound "trademark" but they were still pretty much in the process of creating that "trademark". So I think it is the musical ideas and visions - especially Keith's - that they wanted to accomplish. They know how they wanted to sound, and trusted (only) on their own intuitions and skills.
- Doxa
So Keith trusting his own intuition only could have been the key to succes, but not necessary.. let's say the GT's chose the save way, and left the other parts to players they thought they were best at. Must have been kind of frustrating for Bill, Ron, Jones and Taylor, to a certain extend... But that's history by now.
Re: I wanna hear Brian
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: March 31, 2013 17:34
Quote
DoxaQuote
DandelionPowderman
Keith wrote the Brown Sugar riff, Mick wrote the song
Well, this guy claims otherwise but what the heck he knows... (besides, as this thread shows we should not believe one word these so called Rolling Stones claim about the origin of their songs, especially concerning riffs...
(I've written riffs that people assume are Keith's.) Brown Sugar. That was the first one I did. I've done many since.
- Mick Jagger, 1994
- Doxa
That doesn´t mean Mick wrote the riff as it wound up on record
Re: I wanna hear Brian
Posted by:
uhbuhgullayew
()
Date: March 31, 2013 19:38
Quote
DandelionPowdermanQuote
DoxaQuote
DandelionPowderman
Keith wrote the Brown Sugar riff, Mick wrote the song
Well, this guy claims otherwise but what the heck he knows... (besides, as this thread shows we should not believe one word these so called Rolling Stones claim about the origin of their songs, especially concerning riffs...
(I've written riffs that people assume are Keith's.) Brown Sugar. That was the first one I did. I've done many since.
- Mick Jagger, 1994
- Doxa
That doesn´t mean Mick wrote the riff as it wound up on record
Brown Sugar (Riff Inspiration by Mick Jagger)
Re: I wanna hear Brian
Posted by:
Doxa
()
Date: March 31, 2013 20:21
Quote
uhbuhgullayewQuote
DandelionPowdermanQuote
DoxaQuote
DandelionPowderman
Keith wrote the Brown Sugar riff, Mick wrote the song
Well, this guy claims otherwise but what the heck he knows... (besides, as this thread shows we should not believe one word these so called Rolling Stones claim about the origin of their songs, especially concerning riffs...
(I've written riffs that people assume are Keith's.) Brown Sugar. That was the first one I did. I've done many since.
- Mick Jagger, 1994
- Doxa
That doesn´t mean Mick wrote the riff as it wound up on record
Brown Sugar (Riff Inspiration by Mick Jagger)
The Rolling Stones: anything Keith Richards did - no matter how little, even barely farted to the direction of the song - means that it is substantive and essential to it; so it is created and original and credited to him as far as that song or riff go. For anyone else that kind of contribution is "just arrangement" "inspiration"...
So simple is the logic of his true believers... double standards, oh no....
- Doxa
Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 2013-03-31 20:29 by Doxa.
Re: I wanna hear Brian
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: March 31, 2013 20:59
Doxa, you have got ears, right? Don't get lost in the theoretical possibilities here.
We have heard Mick's embryo version, and we have heard the final result. Of course, there was a lot of development along the way. However, it's pretty easy to hear what Keith did to shape this riff into a classic. I'm not taking away the fantastic work Mick did with writing this song. But trust me, Keith's contribution here was instrumental for making this song fly.
A fart? Best one ever, if you ask me
We have heard Mick's embryo version, and we have heard the final result. Of course, there was a lot of development along the way. However, it's pretty easy to hear what Keith did to shape this riff into a classic. I'm not taking away the fantastic work Mick did with writing this song. But trust me, Keith's contribution here was instrumental for making this song fly.
A fart? Best one ever, if you ask me
Re: I wanna hear Brian
Posted by:
His Majesty
()
Date: March 31, 2013 21:38
Quote
Doxa
So simple is the logic of his true believers.
Re: I wanna hear Brian
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: March 31, 2013 22:26
It's not very difficult telling the difference in guitar riffs from Mick and Keith. It's still very easy to this day
Re: I wanna hear Brian
Posted by:
Doxa
()
Date: April 1, 2013 02:43
Quote
DandelionPowderman
Doxa, you have got ears, right? Don't get lost in the theoretical possibilities here.
We have heard Mick's embryo version, and we have heard the final result. Of course, there was a lot of development along the way. However, it's pretty easy to hear what Keith did to shape this riff into a classic. I'm not taking away the fantastic work Mick did with writing this song. But trust me, Keith's contribution here was instrumental for making this song fly.
A fart? Best one ever, if you ask me
Aw gash, this it True Believism in its worst, my friend Dandie.
Of course, the way Keith Richards plays his guitar... His idiosyncratic touch is something we Stones fans love and immeditealy recognize as the essence of the Rolling Stones sound and all. The timing, everything...
But True Believism says that if Mick Jagger - you know Mick Jagger of The Rolling Stones, the another half of the Glimmer Twins - say he wrote the riff, he is a full of shit. He is a liar, they say.
Is it because they are guitar players, or so big fans of that, and especially blindly fond of Keith's idiosyncratic touch, that they can't see that creating a riff or a song has nothing to do with what a wonderful arrangement, that is, what a wonderful personal interpretation one can do out of that idea - the idea someone else has created in the first place?
Well, the ideology of guitar obsessed Keith Richards True Believism says that if someone else, say, what Brian Jones or Mick Taylor or Nicky Hopkins do with the "initial" idea, created by the original master, is only only "arranging the idea", and nothing to with being "instrumental" to the song. Be the song, say, "Paint It Black, "She's a Rainbow" or "Moonlight Mile".
But when Saint Keith takes Mick's riff - Mick claims he, Mick, have invented - or takes Wyman's riff - the one Bill claims having invented - and plays it in a Rolling Stones recording, it becomes "Keith's riff".
That is the logic of his true believers.
Before the guitar experts start to bullshit: the initial idea of teh riff of "Brown Sugar" is not any rocket science - Keith's way of arranging and taking the shit out of it, surely is. But it is Mick's riff, period. Quite easy a co-product while writing "Brown Sugar" with an open tuning. (Besides, what Jagger plays to Turner family is not introducing any riffs but just showing how the basic song goes.)
Double standards.
- Doxa
Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 2013-04-01 03:04 by Doxa.
Re: I wanna hear Brian
Posted by:
His Majesty
()
Date: April 1, 2013 03:48
Back to the man Keith called a "Contradiction in blonde".
Reporter: "Who is the author of your songs?"
Jagger: "No one of us in particular, and all of us at the same time. We usually sign Jagger and Richards but Brian is the one that knows music best and, in short, one cannot be distinguished by the other. We are all necessary."
Harmonica
Electric dulcimer
Vibraphone
Recorder, possibly piano
Recorder
Electric 12 string guitar
Concert Harp
Hammond organ
Acoustic guitar
Hammond Organ
Slide guitar
Possibly harmonica
Slide guitar
Rhythm guitar
Reporter: "Who is the author of your songs?"
Jagger: "No one of us in particular, and all of us at the same time. We usually sign Jagger and Richards but Brian is the one that knows music best and, in short, one cannot be distinguished by the other. We are all necessary."
Harmonica
Electric dulcimer
Vibraphone
Recorder, possibly piano
Recorder
Electric 12 string guitar
Concert Harp
Hammond organ
Acoustic guitar
Hammond Organ
Slide guitar
Possibly harmonica
Slide guitar
Rhythm guitar
Re: I wanna hear Brian
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: April 1, 2013 08:31
Quote
DoxaQuote
DandelionPowderman
Doxa, you have got ears, right? Don't get lost in the theoretical possibilities here.
We have heard Mick's embryo version, and we have heard the final result. Of course, there was a lot of development along the way. However, it's pretty easy to hear what Keith did to shape this riff into a classic. I'm not taking away the fantastic work Mick did with writing this song. But trust me, Keith's contribution here was instrumental for making this song fly.
A fart? Best one ever, if you ask me
Aw gash, this it True Believism in its worst, my friend Dandie.
Of course, the way Keith Richards plays his guitar... His idiosyncratic touch is something we Stones fans love and immeditealy recognize as the essence of the Rolling Stones sound and all. The timing, everything...
But True Believism says that if Mick Jagger - you know Mick Jagger of The Rolling Stones, the another half of the Glimmer Twins - say he wrote the riff, he is a full of shit. He is a liar, they say.
Is it because they are guitar players, or so big fans of that, and especially blindly fond of Keith's idiosyncratic touch, that they can't see that creating a riff or a song has nothing to do with what a wonderful arrangement, that is, what a wonderful personal interpretation one can do out of that idea - the idea someone else has created in the first place?
Well, the ideology of guitar obsessed Keith Richards True Believism says that if someone else, say, what Brian Jones or Mick Taylor or Nicky Hopkins do with the "initial" idea, created by the original master, is only only "arranging the idea", and nothing to with being "instrumental" to the song. Be the song, say, "Paint It Black, "She's a Rainbow" or "Moonlight Mile".
But when Saint Keith takes Mick's riff - Mick claims he, Mick, have invented - or takes Wyman's riff - the one Bill claims having invented - and plays it in a Rolling Stones recording, it becomes "Keith's riff".
That is the logic of his true believers.
Before the guitar experts start to bullshit: the initial idea of teh riff of "Brown Sugar" is not any rocket science - Keith's way of arranging and taking the shit out of it, surely is. But it is Mick's riff, period. Quite easy a co-product while writing "Brown Sugar" with an open tuning. (Besides, what Jagger plays to Turner family is not introducing any riffs but just showing how the basic song goes.)
Double standards.
- Doxa
You´re misunderstanding something here.
The world isn't this black and white.
Besides, we can discuss Mick and Keith's song writing partnership, and how just it is, all day - but there is a partnership. That's why Mick is in on Ruby Tuesday and Keith gets credit on Far Away Eyes. It cannot be Compared with whether Hopkins created something on Shes A Rainbow or not.
I really think Mick is talking about writing Brown Sugar, with an embryo riff included, in that interview - and not writing the riff as it ended up on the recording, which of course is killer.
Where bad critique's due, Ill be there - mind you, be it mick or keith or anyone else.
Disappointing that you dont know that...
Your examples are not the best ones at what you´re trying to say, imo (PIB, SAR and MM). There is no doubt who wrote the two former ones. MM was written by Jagger (loosely based on a Keith-sketch), according to Taylor, who only claimed to have set up the string arrangements.
The melody on SAR was hummed to Hopkins by Keith. The PIB-riff was written by Keith, and transferred to sitar by Brian.
We don´t have the exact proofs on all the song writing by members of the Stones - in fact, we have very little. Therefore, keep in mind that calling me a true believer and a person with double standards very well could be way off here, if you were wrong. I don´t expect anyone to trust my musical instincts on these matters, however it should be evident that I´m not an airhead with a hard on for every chord Keith strums. The IORR archive would reveal that pretty clearly
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-04-01 10:07 by DandelionPowderman.
Re: I wanna hear Brian
Posted by:
howled
()
Date: April 1, 2013 10:40
Brown Sugar is Mick's.
All of the chords for it are in the Mick/Ike and Tina Turner video, including the main riff (the riff doubled with Acoustic guitar on the record).
Keith plays it of course, and adds his open G suspensions to it and maybe the small intro at the start of the song (the intro that is only heard once at the start of the song).
Brown Sugar is very open G.
It was written by a guy who didn't know much guitar and just moved the open G barre chords up and down the neck using his ears.
That guy was Mick.
Mick said he picked up open G and what it could do from Ry Cooder, the same as Keith did.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-04-01 10:42 by howled.
All of the chords for it are in the Mick/Ike and Tina Turner video, including the main riff (the riff doubled with Acoustic guitar on the record).
Keith plays it of course, and adds his open G suspensions to it and maybe the small intro at the start of the song (the intro that is only heard once at the start of the song).
Brown Sugar is very open G.
It was written by a guy who didn't know much guitar and just moved the open G barre chords up and down the neck using his ears.
That guy was Mick.
Mick said he picked up open G and what it could do from Ry Cooder, the same as Keith did.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-04-01 10:42 by howled.
Re: I wanna hear Brian
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: April 1, 2013 10:45
The main riff IS the intro. The rest is chords.
Writing BS was genius, but I´m pretty certain Keith was instrumental in getting the track, as well as the rhythm of the chords together.
If anyone disagrees with this, I´d like to hear the musical grounds for that...
Writing BS was genius, but I´m pretty certain Keith was instrumental in getting the track, as well as the rhythm of the chords together.
If anyone disagrees with this, I´d like to hear the musical grounds for that...
Re: I wanna hear Brian
Posted by:
Mathijs
()
Date: April 1, 2013 10:55
Quote
DoxaQuote
VT22
I still wonder why Keith or Jagger wiped or dubbed tracks/ideas played by Taylor, Jones, Wood or Wymann? Was it their ego, or them being afraid not to sound trademark Keith- trademark Stones, or did they really think they were the better players?
I would say that in most cases they were not trying to sound "trademark" but they were still pretty much in the process of creating that "trademark". So I think it is the musical ideas and visions - especially Keith's - that they wanted to accomplish. They know how they wanted to sound, and trusted (only) on their own intuitions and skills.
- Doxa
In the case of Wyman it was simply the case of him not being around enough, so bass parts where played by Richards, but also by Taylor or Wood.
As for Taylor -he was never the best of rhtyhm guitarists, often clashing with Richards' rhythm playing, and I think it is a simple matter of Richards not liking Taylor's rhythm playing too much. I think Richards indeed has had the feeling he could improve a track by wiping Taylor's rhtyhm playing and adding his own.
Mathijs
Re: I wanna hear Brian
Posted by:
Mathijs
()
Date: April 1, 2013 10:56
Quote
2000 LYFH
As long as we are talking about credits, Bill also thought they were wrong for EOMS:
BassPlayer Magazine: One of the problems on the original album was that your bass was buried in the mix.
Bill: Well, they’d always sink me way deep. There would always be separate mixes, and then they’d argue about which ones to use. I didn’t get involved, but yeah, I used to get fairly disappointed when you couldn’t bloody well hear my bass. But they wanted more of Keith’s guitar, or whatever. I suppose I just lived with it.
I also didn’t always get the proper credits I deserved, either. When you read the back of the Exile album, it says someone else is playing bass on songs when it was actually me. Mick would always get the credits wrong, and it was too late to change them. So that was annoying, as well.
But I guess Bill has it all wrong here and is flat out lying!
It is true for EOMS -Bill is clearly on Rip This Joint and ADTL, but when the second (double) bass was added his credits disapeared.
Mathijs
Re: I wanna hear Brian
Posted by:
DandelionPowderman
()
Date: April 1, 2013 10:58
Had Taylor´s multi-string natural chord strumming been higher in the mix on SFTD (Ya Ya´s), it would have clashed totally with Keith´s riffing. A good example of a brilliant mix on a Stones record. When Taylor plays something substantial, he´s right up there with his great licks.
Re: I wanna hear Brian
Posted by:
howled
()
Date: April 1, 2013 11:52
Quote
DandelionPowderman
The main riff IS the intro. The rest is chords.
Writing BS was genius, but I´m pretty certain Keith was instrumental in getting the track, as well as the rhythm of the chords together.
If anyone disagrees with this, I´d like to hear the musical grounds for that...
Main riff starts at 18 seconds and is Mick's.
Intro is the bit played up until the 18 second mark, and could possibly be Keith's add on.
Re: I wanna hear Brian
Posted by:
Redhotcarpet
()
Date: April 1, 2013 12:07
The intro is the riff, its obvious that Mick is talking about the riff, the signature riff the intro. What he plays for Ike and Tina is not the riff, he's just humming a bit. It's not an instructional video by Mick Jagger.
Re: I wanna hear Brian
Posted by:
Redhotcarpet
()
Date: April 1, 2013 12:08
Quote
howledQuote
DandelionPowderman
The main riff IS the intro. The rest is chords.
Writing BS was genius, but I´m pretty certain Keith was instrumental in getting the track, as well as the rhythm of the chords together.
If anyone disagrees with this, I´d like to hear the musical grounds for that...
Main riff starts at 18 seconds and is Mick's.
Intro is the bit played up until the 18 second mark, and could possibly be Keith's add on.
Or maybe Ian Stewarts add ons.
Re: I wanna hear Brian
Posted by:
Redhotcarpet
()
Date: April 1, 2013 12:10
Quote
Mathijs
As for Taylor -he was never the best of rhtyhm guitarists, often clashing with Richards' rhythm playing, and I think it is a simple matter of Richards not liking Taylor's rhythm playing too much. I think Richards indeed has had the feeling he could improve a track by wiping Taylor's rhtyhm playing and adding his own.
Mathijs
Keith said Taylor wasnt a rhythm guitarist and that's just pure BS. What Keith meant was that Keith was the best rhtyhm guitarist, which is true.
Re: I wanna hear Brian
Posted by:
howled
()
Date: April 1, 2013 12:30
Quote
Redhotcarpet
The intro is the riff, its obvious that Mick is talking about the riff, the signature riff the intro. What he plays for Ike and Tina is not the riff, he's just humming a bit. It's not an instructional video by Mick Jagger.
The intro is not the main riff.
The main riff is the Acoustic doubled part (Eb, C, Ab, Bb, C) and it recurs throughout the song and Bobby Keys plays the Sax solo over it.
The intro lasts for about 15 seconds and is at the start of the song and never heard again (C, G, C, F, C, I think).
The BS intro could easily be dropped and no one would care too much, just like the Stones drop the JJF intro live.
Once again,
Main riff starts at 18 seconds and is Mick's.
Intro is the bit played up until the 18 second mark, and could possibly be Keith's add on.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-04-01 12:32 by howled.
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