Quote
His Majesty

Quote
71Tele

Quote
His Majesty
Everything f-ucking thread is being littered with Mick Taylor arguments!

Thank you very much Carnaby for making it happen here!

Yes, regretful. But it's hard to let foolish comments like Carnaby's stand uncorrected. It was worth it to view the "Carol" clip from both eras of the band though. Tempo change is really something.

Indeed, this ''Taylor sucks at rhythm'' myth needs to be knocked on the head.

Even as a mainly Brian Jones era fan I can say that Mick Taylor could play any of Brian Jones guitar parts in his sleep, the same cannot be said the other way around, but that does not that matter.

Both Brian and Mick had their own way of playing and both players did some very cool things.

So how about we start some Brian vs. MT threads? Just kidding, really. I love Brian in the Stones because he contributed an element that nobody has since, his musicality on a variety of instruments. Of course their music was much more in the pop realm then, so Brian's experiments worked. I think he was fairly middling on guitar but found a great way to contribute: Sitar, recorder, keyboards, dulcimer, mellotron, etc.

Quote
71Tele

So how about we start some Brian vs. MT threads? Just kidding, really. I love Brian in the Stones because he contributed an element that nobody has since, his musicality on a variety of instruments. Of course their music was much more in the pop realm then, so Brian's experiments worked. I think he was fairly middling on guitar but found a great way to contribute: Sitar, recorder, keyboards, dulcimer, mellotron, etc.

Brian's guitar playing was basic, but he was very much a team player on guitar during the early years(everything is perfect on 1963 IBC demos), plus his slide style gave the band an edge. Problem is he didn't really develop on guitar after 1964, instead he moved on to other instruments.

Leaving Keith to do most of the guitar playing circa 1966 - 1969 wasn't really going to work in the long run and long spells away from playing is detrimental to your abilities. It's clear by 1968 Rock & Roll Circus that Brian had lost some of his touch and ability on guitar, although he puts in a valiant, but ultimately overly fragile effort during No Expectations.

The Rock and Roll Circus band would not have cut it onstage in 1969, certainly not in comparison to The Who, King Crimson and Led Zeppelin etc. Rock was coming of age and expectations of standards of playing had gotten higher. It was time for the band to properly move on from it's initial R&B beginnings and experimental pop years... They needed Mick Taylor to do that.

It's a shame that Brian wasn't allowed to find his own path through this new period of music. I am sure of one thing though! Brian respected musicians who played music for the right reasons and followed their creative muse, for sure he would have appreciated and respected what Mick Taylor brought to the band Brian had put together and named... The Rolling Stones.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2010-06-16 00:36 by His Majesty.

Yes, Brian was no MT on guitar, but his rhythm chops on this clip were pretty damn good. He got the Chuck Berry part down quite nicely.

Quote
His Majesty

Quote
71Tele

So how about we start some Brian vs. MT threads? Just kidding, really. I love Brian in the Stones because he contributed an element that nobody has since, his musicality on a variety of instruments. Of course their music was much more in the pop realm then, so Brian's experiments worked. I think he was fairly middling on guitar but found a great way to contribute: Sitar, recorder, keyboards, dulcimer, mellotron, etc.

Brian's guitar playing was basic, but he was very much a team player on guitar during the early years(everything is perfect on 1963 IBC demos), plus his slide style gave the band an edge. Problem is he didn't really develop on guitar after 1964, instead he moved on to other instruments.

Leaving Keith to do most of the guitar playing circa 1966 - 1969 wasn't really going to work in the long run and long spells away from playing is detrimental to your abilities. It's clear by 1968 Rock & Roll Circus that Brian had lost some of his touch and ability on guitar, although he puts in a valiant, but ultimately overly fragile effort during No Expectations.

The Rock and Roll Circus band would not have cut it onstage in 1969, certainly not in comparison to The Who, King Crimson and Led Zeppelin etc. Rock was coming of age and expectations of standards of playing had gotten higher. It was time for the band to properly move on from it's initial R&B beginnings and experimental pop years... They needed Mick Taylor to do that.

It's a shame that Brian wasn't allowed to find his own path through this new period of music. I am sure of one thing though! Brian respected musicians who played music for the right reasons and followed their creative muse, for sure he would have appreciated and respected what Mick Taylor brought to the band Brian had put together and named... The Rolling Stones.

That performance of No Expectations on Circus is difficult to watch. You root for Brian to make the notes, and he does - barely. For a while I thought they overdubbed it after the fact. He seems utterly forlorn on guitar on the other tunes.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2010-06-16 05:10 by 71Tele.

On this Mike Douglas show clip, Brian is a star.

You can argue all you want about who is a better guitar player, but in all the early footage/photos he is the most visually striking Stone, the only rival to Mick the frontman.

have you seen???
a very rare promotional copy of "englands newest hitmakers" great stuff. i like to hav eit in my collection........

I dont know why we cant enjoy Brian, MT and Ron. Its not a secret that I'm partial to Taylor but I think thats more because of MY age when he was with the band and brings back such great memories! What I don't understand is the "hatred" some on here have for him. Whenever his name is brought up theres always a few(and usually the same ones) that have to insult and degrade him...I dont get it.

I liked Mick Jagger's voice a lot more during this period of his career. Where is the clip of him singing Not Fade Away after the interview?

I do not understand why Mick Taylor was not asked to join the group in 1964, so he could have been on the Mike Douglas Show?

thanks for posting - this was a real surprise and treat!

- swiss

There will be a meeting of Brian's fans in Cheltenham on July 3 next, with Dick Hattrell and Pat Andrews.

Some observations. "Keith Richard" seems really obstreperous on stage during this period. Also, I am sure that Mick Jagger was completely pissed-off at Brian Jones after this appearance for trying to spread rumors that Mick was gay.

This shows Brian was the leader of the group ever so briefly . ..



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2010-06-16 13:27 by mitchflorida.

Quote
mitchflorida
Some observations. "Keith Richard" seems really obstreperous on stage during this period. Also, I am sure that Mick Jagger was completely pissed-off at Brian Jones after this appearance for trying to spread rumors that Mick was gay.

This shows Brian was the leader of the group ever so briefly . ..

I don't think Mick was pissed off at all! And Brian did not spread not a rumor that Mick was gay, he said (JOKE) Mick was more popular with men...

Telling a tv-host that Mick is popular with men shows you Brian was the leader of the band?!

Quote
mitchflorida
Also, I am sure that Mick Jagger was completely pissed-off at Brian Jones after this appearance for trying to spread rumors that Mick was gay.

Looking at those guys with Mike at the beginning of the clip, I'm pretty sure that they--like a lot of Americans in 1964--thought that ALL of those
English long-haired boys were "queer."

The blurring of gender identities was arguably the most radical thing about the Stones and other British Invasion groups.

The reaction of the girls, and the fact that Brian got the issue out in the open with that joke--even if he threw Mick under the bus--had to be of some comfort to the boy fans of the band. And especially their parents, who hoped that this was just another passing fad.

Did Keith introduce himself as Keith Richard (no "s")?

>> Did Keith introduce himself as Keith Richard (no "s" ) <<

yeah - that was his professional name from 1963 to the late 70s

thanks for posting this brilliant footage ~ thanks & praises, Rolling Stones!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2010-06-16 19:40 by with sssoul.

Quote
with sssoul
>> Did Keith introduce himself as Keith Richard (no "s" ) <<

yeah - that was his professional name from 1963 to the late 70s

thanks for posting this brilliant footage ~ thanks & praises, Rolling Stones!

Not exactly. He seemed to have alternated between "Richard" and "Richards" on album credits for a number of years. He is "Richards" on Exile, for example, except for "Happy" where he is "Richard".

>> He seemed to have alternated between "Richard" and "Richards" <<

yeah, he did (in autographs as well), and Jagger introduced him both ways all through the 70s
but the short-form clarification i gave above isn't wrong - it's just the short form :E

with sssoul, I read (it seems) a long time ago in some interview where Keith said dropping the s was one of Oldham's brainstorms. Do you know if thats right or did you hear anything like that?

>> Do you know if thats right or did you hear anything like that? <<

yeah, that seems to be the only plausible version ...
then there are all kinds of assorted theories as to why ALO preferred the s-less form



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2010-06-16 20:28 by with sssoul.

Quote
loog droog
On this Mike Douglas show clip, Brian is a star.

You can argue all you want about who is a better guitar player, but in all the early footage/photos he is the most visually striking Stone, the only rival to Mick the frontman.

Agreed. Brian clearly comes off as the spokesperson for the band in this period. MJ was just getting more notice as the LV, and Keith was pretty shy at this point in front of the cameras. Brian is more articulate and looks self-assured. Brian handled interviews with more eloquence than the others in the early 60's. I love these old videos when the band was really working hard at making it. They took some verbal swipes, but could dish it out as well. This Mike Douglas Show footage is top notch stuff.

Wow, thanks Straycat, that was enjoyable. And it is so clear from this vid and the retrobites vid that was once on tube but seems to have dissappeared (the one where Brian speaks about that the state Georgia has many idiots etc), that it was Brian and Brian alone that was the real bad boy, who's image Oldham cleverly projected on the whole band. Without Brian there simply would not have been any Rolling Stones in more than one way.

Quote
mccparty
Did Keith introduce himself as Keith Richard (no "s")?

Yes after the drug thing (1977) he had to change his lifestyle and as a symbol of that new beginning he changed his name from Richard to Richards.

Quote
loog droog
On this Mike Douglas show clip, Brian is a star.

You can argue all you want about who is a better guitar player, but in all the early footage/photos he is the most visually striking Stone, the only rival to Mick the frontman.

This is so true most people don't seem to be aware that Keith really wasn't an important person in the Stones at all in the first few years, it was Brian and Mick, Oldham was the one that had put Keith on the frontseat, and even than it had to take Brian to show Keith how to play a riff (the Last Time) before Keith finally gets it and sets his first steps on the path of becoming the riffmaster, and than it is Brian's girlfriend Anita that introduces Keith to drugs and the living dangerously. We would never have heard of Keith if it wasn't for Brian, but don't remind Keith of that, he wants to believe that it was him who invented the wheel.

Quote
loog droog

Quote
mitchflorida
Also, I am sure that Mick Jagger was completely pissed-off at Brian Jones after this appearance for trying to spread rumors that Mick was gay.

Looking at those guys with Mike at the beginning of the clip, I'm pretty sure that they--like a lot of Americans in 1964--thought that ALL of those
English long-haired boys were "queer."

The blurring of gender identities was arguably the most radical thing about the Stones and other British Invasion groups.

The reaction of the girls, and the fact that Brian got the issue out in the open with that joke--even if he threw Mick under the bus--had to be of some comfort to the boy fans of the band. And especially their parents, who hoped that this was just another passing fad.

I thought it was hilarious how Brian threw Mick under the bus...a precusor maybe, to LYL "...and Ronnie Wood's gay".

but don't remind Keith of that, he wants to believe that it was him who invented the wheel.

Hey that's wild behroez .... Would lurv ta see Keith's version of thee wheel ...



ROCKMAN

Quote
behroez
Wow, thanks Straycat, that was enjoyable. And it is so clear from this vid and the retrobites vid that was once on tube but seems to have dissappeared (the one where Brian speaks about that the state Georgia has many idiots etc), that it was Brian and Brian alone that was the real bad boy, who's image Oldham cleverly projected on the whole band. Without Brian there simply would not have been any Rolling Stones in more than one way.

I agree with this 100%. In the early days, Mick was too effiminate and Keith too shy. Yet, Brian was cool and masculine enough to be the real star and bad boy of the band, the true representative of the Rolling Stones. That's why Bob Dylan, the Byrds, John Lennon, George Harrison, the Animals, Pete Townshend, the Kinks, etc all flocked to Brian in the early days. This clip clearly reveals how confident Brian was. Poor Keith was like a deer in headlights back then in front of the cameras.

Dig Brian playing that chunky rhythm. Imagine Taylor trying to do it.

- - LOL. Are you joking?? Imagine Taylor doing that chunka chunka thing? Hell, anybody can do that, even me.

Jeez, it was Taylor's rhythmic idea that turned Country Honk (Keith's idea) into Honky Tonk Women, a song that is all about rhythm fer cryin out loud; even Keith is on record saying that. (to Barbara Cherone) . Yeah Keith held down the rhythm for the most part, with Taylor playing leads, but when he wasn't doing that Taylor was playing interlocking rhythms, and was damn good at it.

Weird that one tune was live (Keith's guitar not loud enough unfortunately) and the other tune was not.