In high school I heard the Some Girls album at a party and Charlie's double time kick drumming on Respectable, Lies, and When The Whip Comes Down and stopped me in my tracks. He used this again on Summer Romance and Where The Boys Go. Has there been a discussion about Charlie's drumming on these particular tracks? Do any of you connect with these 5 songs through Charlie's kick drum?

I always did love his drumming on these. Glad you mentioned the ER tracks as well. I never really noticed it as much on there as the atmosphere of the album was so different. But you are right. Thanks for bringing that to my attention.

Four on the floor.

This style really works for these songs, but it also in a way fits with his "lazy" drumming habits. When you play r+r drums, it becomes very easy to just let your kick-foot just pound away all the time, without even thinking about it-- like when you tap your feet to music at home. It's just natural. Charlie has a lot of "lazy" drumming habits, like playing heavy on the right hand, and not hitting the ride note that coincides with the beat (only playing 3 out of every four notes on the hi-hat). But that's just his style, and I've always liked it and felt it was appropriate for the Stones.

the more I hear Creedence's Doug Clifford, the more his playing seems similar to Charlie's. He's the only other drummer who sounds kind of like Charlie. The drum sounds are similar too.

I know my comment is unrelated to Charlie's double time kick drumming.

I think he plays eights, so it would be eight on the floor right?

He played like this on the recent tour as well. Listen to his bass drum fills, he makes a couple here:

Quote
Tate
This style really works for these songs, but it also in a way fits with his "lazy" drumming habits. When you play r+r drums, it becomes very easy to just let your kick-foot just pound away all the time, without even thinking about it-- like when you tap your feet to music at home. It's just natural. Charlie has a lot of "lazy" drumming habits, like playing heavy on the right hand, and not hitting the ride note that coincides with the beat (only playing 3 out of every four notes on the hi-hat). But that's just his style, and I've always liked it and felt it was appropriate for the Stones.

The reason he is so great (and a big reason the Stones sound so different from other bands) is that Charlie is NOT a rock drummer, and could care less about rock drumming.

hmm 71tele that's kinda nailin' it i guess huh?
his approach so dynamic; the propulsion is simply amazing; he's kickin' all kinda shit and rolls punchin' each verse line right first time i heard them 'time is on my side'... fabulous propulsion and articulation; accents and stuff...his beat is sooo deep, he punctuates and how everything he plays on...this guy just continaully stuns me... of ALL of them...Charlie (and to some extent, and very interestingly to me, Bill) IS the ONE out there doin' pure hot boogie woogie in all kinds of theatre venues, etc... man he is THERE! charlie is in the charli-ness of his ultimate charlieness and he is my darling.
dang.

one of rare gifts of iorr was downloading an mp3 (now lost on daid computer) of some total early live stones thing, before record deals even possibly....and they are doin' "Route 66" and the DRIVE is SOOO enormous. to me, since then, i kinda felt that if you took OUT of the performance a totally hot saucy young mick vocal, and totally driving Keith Brian thing...even if you took the OTHER 3 originals (sans stu) AWAY... the dance floor would have still been out of it's mind crazy and FULL...imo... cause the things charlie and bill were doin' and it was PURE BOOGIE like i ain't never thought I'd hear outta UK or too much anywhere in pop cultcha.... it was stunning.... he still THE draw of the live thing imo too.

There may be eights for all I know but the style is known simply as four on the floor. So if the measure is eight beats long, it's still four, it's just twice.

AH HA HA HA!

His drumming is one of the main reasons why the Stones were the best early British Blues band by far...Pure swing, just like Elgin Evans or Fred Below.
Also love his drumming on the Stones reggae-like songs, he nailed that style.

Charlie is definitely a rock drummer. He loves jazz, plays jazz, but is not a stellar jazz drummer, and has admitted it himself, saying he is a better rock drummer. I think Charlie's passion is jazz, and loved it early on, but really got his start as a blues/rock drummer. Playing with jazz groups after being in a rock band is kinda like learning to drive on an automatic and switching to a standard... whole new ballgame.

Quote
Tate
Charlie is definitely a rock drummer. He loves jazz, plays jazz, but is not a stellar jazz drummer, and has admitted it himself, saying he is a better rock drummer. I think Charlie's passion is jazz, and loved it early on, but really got his start as a blues/rock drummer. Playing with jazz groups after being in a rock band is kinda like learning to drive on an automatic and switching to a standard... whole new ballgame.

he played with lots of people pre - Stones, including a piano trio with Dudley Moore (the actor/comedian)
Charlie was tuned into the jazzers early. anyone who was playing swing and bebop in London, Charlie knew them.
He stated about his hi hat technique, of leaving off the 2 and 4 on the hihat, that he did it to record the drum sound better, so when the snare hits on 2 and 4 , he backs off the hi hat. I believe thats in an interview in DownBeat magazine.

Quote
Tate
Charlie is definitely a rock drummer. He loves jazz, plays jazz, but is not a stellar jazz drummer, and has admitted it himself, saying he is a better rock drummer. I think Charlie's passion is jazz, and loved it early on, but really got his start as a blues/rock drummer. Playing with jazz groups after being in a rock band is kinda like learning to drive on an automatic and switching to a standard... whole new ballgame.

I get what you are saying, and you are right about him not being a great jazz drummer. But my point is that Charlie doesn't care for rock, doesn't listen to it, and therefore has always approached rock & roll music from a different perspective than most drummers in rock bands. He has a jazzier, more elastic feel. The backbeat is just a millisecond behind, where schooled rock drummers play right on the beat. Plus, he has that idiosyncratic hi-hat style, which others here have pointed out. I do agree he sounded better with Bill. Their idiosyncracies complemented each other well.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2010-04-29 06:43 by 71Tele.

Quote
skipstone
There may be eights for all I know but the style is known simply as four on the floor. So if the measure is eight beats long, it's still four, it's just twice.

AH HA HA HA!

Yes, but he does bass drums fills when he plays eights in those tracks.

I'd say Miss you has a typical Four on the floor beat. But Jumpin jack Flash?

71Tele hit the nail on head.

He plays eighth notes in bursts on the kick in the songs originally mentioned in this post. He also does that live on occasion, especially the last two tours. (See JJF at the Olympia and Street Fighting Man at Twickenham and a plethora of other examples from the ABB tour.)

Charlie is my favorite rock and roll drummer of all time. I've been playing drums for over 30 years now, and it never ceases to amaze me how completely underrated he is. Drummers who try to belittle his drumming style and abilities are a dime a dozen. There is only one Charlie Watts. He's simply the best.

Quote
saulsurvivor
He plays eighth notes in bursts on the kick in the songs originally mentioned in this post. He also does that live on occasion, especially the last two tours. (See JJF at the Olympia and Street Fighting Man at Twickenham and a plethora of other examples from the ABB tour.)

Charlie is my favorite rock and roll drummer of all time. I've been playing drums for over 30 years now, and it never ceases to amaze me how completely underrated he is. Drummers who try to belittle his drumming style and abilities are a dime a dozen. There is only one Charlie Watts. He's simply the best.

Good to hear from a drummer...I think that used to be more true in years past about drummers underestimating Charlie's talents, mainly because that double-bass muscular type of rock drumming was so popular. Subtley was not exactly in (talking 70s and 80s here). Neither was taste.

I am also a drummer, have been all my life. I think essentially I agree with 71tele's notion of Charlie's preferences. I guess I am one of the "dime-a-dozen" drummers, though, who trashes Charlie's playing, though I don't deny how perfect he is for the Stones. Every musician is unique, does things the way he/she wants to, and Charlie is definitely unique. While I like his sound and style with the Stones, I find it more of a coincidence, and luck of the draw as to band chemistry than anything Charlie does as a drummer. He is a sloppy drummer as professional drummers go, you just can't deny that. In the studio he sounds ok, but you can do wonders in a studio. On stage these days I find he is very limited, takes every short cut he can, and often makes mistakes. But he loves what he does (especially the jazz material) and any musician must be respected for putting joy into music. I'm sure his jazz bandmates over the years have appreciated him... but to say he's not a good rock drummer because he's really a jazz drummer is off the mark. If you are a skilled jazz drummer, you can do anything. I just don't think Charlie takes the time these days to really keep himself "in shape" as a drummer, but rather just goes out and plays swing. I don't think a drummer has to be phenomenal or a good soloist to be good-- but playing tight and making the band sound good is the most important part. I think live, there are times when Charlie really loses it and exposes his loss of finesse over the years.

Quote
Tate
I am also a drummer, have been all my life. I think essentially I agree with 71tele's notion of Charlie's preferences. I guess I am one of the "dime-a-dozen" drummers, though, who trashes Charlie's playing, though I don't deny how perfect he is for the Stones. Every musician is unique, does things the way he/she wants to, and Charlie is definitely unique. While I like his sound and style with the Stones, I find it more of a coincidence, and luck of the draw as to band chemistry than anything Charlie does as a drummer. He is a sloppy drummer as professional drummers go, you just can't deny that. In the studio he sounds ok, but you can do wonders in a studio. On stage these days I find he is very limited, takes every short cut he can, and often makes mistakes. But he loves what he does (especially the jazz material) and any musician must be respected for putting joy into music. I'm sure his jazz bandmates over the years have appreciated him... but to say he's not a good rock drummer because he's really a jazz drummer is off the mark. If you are a skilled jazz drummer, you can do anything. I just don't think Charlie takes the time these days to really keep himself "in shape" as a drummer, but rather just goes out and plays swing. I don't think a drummer has to be phenomenal or a good soloist to be good-- but playing tight and making the band sound good is the most important part. I think live, there are times when Charlie really loses it and exposes his loss of finesse over the years.

Tate, do you really think Charlie is sloppy, or just loose? I don't think he takes shortcuts, and I also think feel (which a lot of rock drummers lack despite technical proficiency) makes up for a lot of other deficiencies. Also, I think Charlie has been the tightest member of the original group onstage in recent years - given Keith's dropping his former role of keeping the rhythm together - and if it weren't for Charlie they would not have been able to pull off the last few tours.

This is the sort of thing that makes the Stones the Stones. Watts, in my opinion, is not the greatest drummer, but in another way he is, because his style fits in perfectly with the Stones, and I have never heard anyone else play like him, his style is unique.

I have been listening to Jagger's 1988 solo shows and they just don't sound right, one of the reasons is because of the absence of Watts.

His little three beats after the main riff in Start Me Up in 1989-90 get me every time. It feels like it's giving a little kick in the ass to the upcoming riff.

For several other tours, he played it with a gap in there. This is not the best example of it, but:

charlie is great for the stones . sloppy? loose? i dont know but did he ever come in at the right time in little queenie in 69?

what Tate says about Charlie is right. Still he's been driving the Stones since 1963. I love seeing him play. His back is always straight. He plays with great economy. And who has a more professional work ethic, when on tour, than Charlie? Mistakes? Sloppy? yes. but because he can play with Keith so well it has made them a band of power and longevity.
Yes a jazz drummer can play anything, sight read, amaze you with their skill. I'm sure a lot of jazz musicians have nothing but disdain for the Stones musically, especially considering how rich the Stones are.
Yet at the end of the day Charlie has the innate unskilled ability that the Stones have to have.

Quote
straycatblues73
charlie is great for the stones . sloppy? loose? i dont know but did he ever come in at the right time in little queenie in 69?

That was Keith, wasn´t it?

IMO bashers like John Bonham or Keith Moon are dime a dozen, but there is only one Charlie Watts. Everything he does he does with a lot of style and class, which is sadly more than I can say for about 95% of the drummers out there. The Stones wouldn't be "The Stones" without him.

Anybody who derides Charlie's style as "boring" is missing the point. I mean, I like Zeppelin, but give me Charlie's swing over Bonham's stomp any day!

>> any musician must be respected for putting joy into music <<

thanks for that fine observation - not only apropos of Charlie, of course

with all respect to Tate and his observations as a drummer, which i am not; i relate somehow more to charlie's feel so much...i think that in a way it's like Ringo, who most pro drummers just laugh at...but his thing is so very essential and a huge part of the creative whole of a rare 'genius' natural band of rockers...none of these guys went to GIT or Berkeley or songwriting school; instead they WROTE THE TEXT BOOK w foundational magic that lit up the entire entire world and actually changed , to a degree, the cutting edge of 'culture' that they rode in on and forever changed and took it to the international stage (and the vast unconcious).... this is, imo, genius. genius amalgamation of ALL of rocks roots: blues country folk into something very else indeed; yet still a direct descendent carying the weight (and the light) of the culture with it....

...or something....

this IS the pulsebeat of the culture; the nervous system of the entire rock and roll thing when stones are at best and kicking all cylinders...

then "correct" "learned" "Schooled" "Professional" peeps come into the conversation and add their perspectives.... but it's (to me) kinda After the Fact or ATM after the miracle..and as such, is consequential only in some cultural critic context not the driving force of EMOTION and clarity and punctuation that watts, and yes starkey achieve so organically....this is the REALEST deal imo...

i still read the pros perspective with gratitude tho...not putting anyone perspective downn butwanted to share this: good fried of mine...Great feel soul bass player with absolute chops...and a big job with a real soul blues rockin' foundational hero (or heroine) of the entire scene...on top of that he TEACHES in his rare spare time...he endlessly explains to me ( i don't listen anymore) when i go on about the stones (which i always do can't help it...
he patiently explains to me how bill was not really a "good" bassist.
and i can't listen to one thing the guy has ever played ever since...
he's a pretender with a head full of theory and expertise and tho he has 'feel' it's not the genius heart of the natural phenom that is Charlie.

and that merseybeat liverpool beat thing? before the stones brought that big fat blues boogie beat to the party...
those kids had it goin' ON... there are guys and gals who are dynamite professionals in every way...and to me that's charlie too; he's the one who had throat cancer, punched in anyway; cut an album; went on an almost three year tour and whilethe others are doin' whatever they're doin'....charlies on the road with a boogie band...a damn amazing one....
prove it all night every night watts...

plus when he sits down and kicks out the backbeat...twenty thousand or a hundred thousand people or a hundred million get lifted into the air... charlie IS rock and roll drumming. it's that second R that most people miss. it's got that loping swing but there's a full arsenal of stuff goin' off from the heart of fire as he looks around all eagle -eyed...charlie blows my mind...

beelyboy...Think About it



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2010-04-30 20:17 by Beelyboy.

Quote
saulsurvivor
He plays eighth notes in bursts on the kick in the songs originally mentioned in this post. He also does that live on occasion, especially the last two tours. (See JJF at the Olympia and Street Fighting Man at Twickenham and a plethora of other examples from the ABB tour.)

Charlie is my favorite rock and roll drummer of all time. I've been playing drums for over 30 years now, and it never ceases to amaze me how completely underrated he is. Drummers who try to belittle his drumming style and abilities are a dime a dozen. There is only one Charlie Watts. He's simply the best.

These "eighth notes in bursts" in the choruses of these 5 SG and ER songs perfectly describes what I was talking about in my original post. Thanks, saulsurvivor.

Personally the best drumming from Charlie is what is on Get Yer Ya-Ya's Out! - it's exceptional. He uses the same kick pattern, the tight two before the snare, on Jumpin' Jack Flash, Midnight Rambler, Live With Me and Street Fighting Man. It's the most driving force I've ever heard from a band. He might be a limited drummer in terms of using the same rhythmic pattern for every song - but it's what he does.

Then there is the whole not hitting the hi-hat all the way through the measure style he started to develop in the 1970s that he seemingly perfected in the 1980s. His drumming on She's So Cold is, I think, his best recording ever performance wise. It's supreme.

The style that is mentioned here, the songs, he does do four on the floor but he breaks it up here and there and does the quarter note kicks as well, which are the double kicks in that - the sort of rushed kick pattern, in Whip especially. Respectable is more straight forward but there are parts where he strays from the four on the floor. It sounds more like he was still just getting the hang of the song and was doing whatever felt right as opposed to "being" right. Summer Romance is almost a mad polka. Where The Boys Go is four but has variations in it with that rushed double time - a throw back to what he did in the late 60s early 70s.

He doesn't do that anymore! What he does now all sounds the same. It's pretty funny - that's the shortcut - he just plays the same thing in every song it seems ha ha.