We all know that MT's only "official" writing credit is for Ventilator Blues (presumably for the great killer riff). But he was initially credited on I'm Going Down. Anyone know why his credit was later removed?

Also, if he SHOULD receive other credits, what songs should he be entitled to credit on? I have read: Moonlight Mile (though this came from Keith's "Japanese Thing"), Till The Next Goodbye, Time Waits For No One. Any others?

if taylor wrote actual lyrics or the music for an entire song then he would deserve writing credit if everyone who created a guitar part or drum note and so on was credited you would see songwriting credits like lennon/mccartney/harrison for example

I would think "Sway," "Can't You Hear Me Knocking," and "Moonlight MIle" on STICKY FINGERS. "Silver Train" and "Winter" on GOATS HEAD SOUP. "Time Waits For No One" on IORR. Those are the ones I would have awarded to him based on my ears and assumptions. I've wondered about "Hand of Fate" on BLACK AND BLUE because of the similarity to "Broken Hands" on Taylor's first solo album. Ultimately, he didn't get the credits and never will see them the way the laws are written today.

Yes, I agree, help with arrangements and coming up with distinctive guitar parts do not warrant songwriting credit. Many people don't understand this. Don't know if Taylor's contention on those tunes is due to those type of contributions or actually taking part in crafting lyrics and/or melody and chord progressions.

Didn't the Procol Harum organist recently sue for royalties claiming his organ part was distinctive enough to qualify for co-writer's credit?

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ghostryder13
if taylor wrote actual lyrics or the music for an entire song then he would deserve writing credit if everyone who created a guitar part or drum note and so on was credited you would see songwriting credits like lennon/mccartney/harrison for example

Well, Jagger and Richards didn't write the music for an entire song if Mick Taylor made contributions himself.

Morally, he deserves credit for his part in the Stones' career.

Going back to a previous thread about Mick taylor's current health and financial position, I hope (but doubt) that he has received some payment from their organisation. A few million quid shouldn't hurt - well, it would hurt the tight-fisted lead vocalist - but he and the rest of the band should be ashamed of themselves if they haven't helped him out.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2009-11-15 21:31 by Harlem Shuffler.

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71Tele
We all know that MT's only "official" writing credit is for Ventilator Blues (presumably for the great killer riff). But he was initially credited on I'm Going Down. Anyone know why his credit was later removed?

Also, if he SHOULD receive other credits, what songs should he be entitled to credit on? I have read: Moonlight Mile (though this came from Keith's "Japanese Thing"), Till The Next Goodbye, Time Waits For No One. Any others?

There where several incorrect credits on Metamorphosis, namely Don't lie to me, I Don't Know Why and I'm Going Down. All where corrected with the second pressing.

And concerning the writing credits -the only songs ever claimed by Taylor to have a large input by him are Time Waits and Till the Next Time. All other songs ever mentioned to be (partly) written by Taylor are mentioned by fans, not by any of the Stones.

Mathijs



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2009-11-15 22:57 by Mathijs.

Well, then I am sure the Stones will correct the credits on those two tracks starting with the very next pressing of IORR, so that Taylor receives proper credit...Chuckle, chuckle

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71Tele
Well, then I am sure the Stones will correct the credits on those two tracks starting with the very next pressing of IORR, so that Taylor receives proper credit...Chuckle, chuckle

Why would they? Apperently Taylor's claim is false, judging on the amount of credits Ron Wood has recieved over the years.

Mathijs

Maybe they gave Wood credits because they didn't want to make the same mistake they had made with Taylor.

Didn't Woodie actually write IORR, then the glimmers hi jacked it ?

I don't know if he wrote it, but it came from sessions for his solo album, and was certainly "hijacked". Apparently Richards wiped some of the original guitars, which were played by Wood, Jagger and David Bowie.

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gripweed
Didn't Woodie actually write IORR, then the glimmers hi jacked it ?

I think the story goes that Mick gave Woody 'I Can Feel the Fire' and Mick (the Stones) got IORR 'in return'.

Mick T worked closely with Jagger on some Sticky Fingers tracks - Sway and Moonlight Mile especially, I think. Perhaps he wouldn't have expected at that early stage to get credits. Then he got equal credit with J/R on one Exile track. But Exile was mainly Keith's album where Keith does most of the guitars. Ofcourse MT did some great guitar work on Exile and a fair bit of bass. But I should think it was fair that he got collaborative recognition for just the one song. And I expect he was pleased to get that credit and was looking forward to getting more.

On GHS and perhaps even more on IORR album he was working more collaboratively with Mick J than Keith was. So I should think that it was after that large amount of creative and collaborative input (when Keith was often not too involved) that he felt/realised he was not going to get full appreciation and credit for his work. I'm not saying he's a great song-writer in his own right - but for the songs on which he contributed a lot more than Keith did it can hardly have seemed right to him that Keith got joint credit (both in honourial and financial terms), whereas he didn't get respected for his important role. And I bet it was an important role - being Jagger's right-hand man and smoothing the creation and completion process. Adding ideas, bass, synths, solos, extra rhythm. The two Micks worked well together.

Most Zeppelin tunes are credited equally - not a problem for them (had it not been that way from the start?) - but this just wasn't going to happen in a Stones context.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2009-11-16 00:42 by Four Stone Walls.

Taylor certainly took over the role of Jagger's main musical collaborator. Maybe this led to some difficulties with Keith during this period. Collaboration still doesn't necessarily equal songwriting, so I'm not sure what you think MT should get "credit" for, in that context.

Well if Richards gets credited in 'Jagger/Richards' compositions in which he hardly contributes (in comparison with Taylor) - what do you think?

It's easy to see that Jagger/Taylor wasn't going to happen. But Jagger/Richards/Taylor wouldn't have hurt too much - would it?



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 2009-11-16 15:35 by Four Stone Walls.

I agree...It was like Lennon/McCartney in that they both got credit no matter who wrote what. Taylors name would have to be added, as it was for VB.

To take a rather mercenary view of it, Mick Taylor (like Bill Wyman) had some great ideas but was never going to write songs as completed compositions that would either make the grade or become hits for the band. They were encouraged to contribute, their contributions helped transform the songs but at the end of the day, the royalties went to Mick and Keith only. Price of being in a band with the Glimmers.

Woody, by contrast, was a successful songwriter with Rod Stewart and became friendly with the Glimmers. Consequently, he not only participated in the songwriting, but was credited. Right up until his own songwriting suffered and then he was yanked out (also coinciding with his financial promotion in the band). He can either contribute and not be credited (VOODOO LOUNGE) or be brought aboard like a sideman to contribute at the end of the sessions only (BRIDGES, LICKS, BANG). Woody likes to spin it as since the late eighties reunion, Mick and Keith want to limit the songwriting to one another, but it hasn't stopped Steve Jordan, Chris Jagger, Matt Clifford, Pierre de Bauport, Dave Stewart, etc. from earning royalties or at least payouts for songwriting collaborations during this same period.

Yes, Mick and Keith take a mercenary view, but they know anyone they use is well-compensated at the time and, more importantly, lacks the ability to go out and compete with them as songwriters in their own right. They learned a very tough and hard lesson in writing songs in the early sixties and have largely stuck to that ethic no matter how much it rankles band members, associates, and fans. Its a business and they're ruthless and successful. Call them bastards and they'll only smile. They're Andrew and Allen's boys after all.

Have to agree with Four Stone Walls and Tele. The logic is that there are dozens of songs solely written by Mick that Keith gets credit on. And yet Taylor was clearly Mick's primary collaborator on much of GHS and IORR. If not a real lyricist or riff-writer, he was definitely responsible for the "sound" of many of those songs (Winter, Time Waits for No One--practically the whole damn thing is a Taylor solo!)

Why did Ronnie get writing credits? Well, for starters, Keith probably liked Ronnie a lot more. But it is true, that Ronnie is, and always has been a real songwriter, which Mick T never really proved to be.

A very good analysis, Rocky Dijon. They learned hard lessons from Andrew and Klein. But I also agree with JMoisica that Woody had an easier time (at least early on) because he was better-liked than Taylor.

The Stones are ruthless users of people. I don't necessarily mean that in a pejorative sense. They took what they needed and then dropped people who were no longer useful, whether they be musicians, producers or drug dealers.

i think anyone would take a mercenary view if they were screwed by allen klein as bad as mick and keith were. mick taylor is an awesome guitarist but has anyone ever covered one of his solo career songs?

I've heard that Mick taylor who co-wrote Angie & Moonlight Mile melody on piano
Am I mistaken ?



I am a Frenchie ,as Mick affectionately called them in the Old Grey Whistle Test in 1977 .

Taylor never seems to claim as many tracks as some fans do.
in this article [www.dailymail.co.uk] Taylor mentions Sway and Moonlight Mile "and a couple of others"
but i've never heard/read anyone claim he co-wrote Angie.

>> songs solely written by Mick that Keith gets credit on <<

and those written solely by Keith that Mick gets credit on



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2009-11-16 11:20 by with sssoul.

These are the tracks I think he made his best contributions on:

You Gotta Move
Can´t You Hear Me Knocking
Sway
Moonlight Mile
All Down The Line
Stop Breaking Down
Shine A Light
Ventilator Blues
Silver Train
100 Years Ago
Winter
Fingerprint File (bass)
Time Waits For No One

In my mind these are Jagger/Taylor collaborations:
Sway / Moonlight Mile / Time Waits For No One
Possibly also 100 Years Ago and Hide Your Love

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with sssoul
Taylor never seems to claim as many tracks as some fans do.
in this article [www.dailymail.co.uk] Taylor mentions Sway and Moonlight Mile "and a couple of others"
but i've never heard/read anyone claim he co-wrote Angie.

I've read it here :

He said in his original contract he was guaranteed performance royalties for playing on songs such as 'Brown Sugar' and 'Angie' but that he had received no money since 1982.
[www.spinner.com]
Don't know whether or not it's tue.



I am a Frenchie ,as Mick affectionately called them in the Old Grey Whistle Test in 1977 .

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Four Stone Walls

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gripweed
Didn't Woodie actually write IORR, then the glimmers hi jacked it ?

I think the story goes that Mick gave Woody 'I Can Feel the Fire' and Mick (the Stones) got IORR 'in return'.

Well somebody got screwed in THAT deal - and it wasn't Mick.

>> performance royalties for playing on songs <<

that refers to tracks he played on, not tracks he co-wrote.
performance royalties and songwriting royalties are two different things.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2009-11-16 13:09 by with sssoul.

<These are the tracks I think he made his best contributions on:

You Gotta Move
Can´t You Hear Me Knocking
Sway
Moonlight Mile
All Down The Line
Stop Breaking Down
Shine A Light
Ventilator Blues
Silver Train
100 Years Ago
Winter
Fingerprint File (bass)
Time Waits For No One>

Also two blistering solos on Dance Little Sister and If You Really Want To Be My Friend

We don't know what Taylor did in the studio, but cool guitar parts don't get you songwriting credit. Where's the evidence of writing a melody or lyrics, or even a chord progression?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2009-11-16 14:49 by texas fan.

George was a writer in it's own level.
I can't remeber any Fab 4 song with Lennon/McCartney/Harrison credits.

Mean Mr.Mustard

you gotta move and stop breaking down are cover songs how and why should he get a writing credit on something not written by anyone in the stones?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2009-11-16 17:38 by ghostryder13.

Yeah, Mick really did pull a fast one on Ronnie with IORR(BILI).

Eh, the funny thing about Sway being played on the Bang tour - only two people on stage are on he recording.

If Mick Taylor really did help write whatever songs he should have dealt with it then. Ronnie did deal with what he did do for the most part (exception being IORR and Hey Negrita).