Beggars' Banquet is a prime example of how people look @ this era with rose-colored glasses.

A) Dear Doctor is probably the worst song that they've ever recorded.

Prodigal Son - Despite the solid guitar work,this song is otherwise unremarkable.

C) Factory Girl - This song is average at best,not anything to write home about.

D) Salt of the Earth - This one is good but,there are plenty of Stones' songs from the past 20 years which are better.

E) If they wrote Parachute Woman & Stray Cat Blues now ( both are solid tracks ),people would be writing them off because of " sophomoric " etc. lyrics.


I just don't see how people can say that this stuff is so " superior " to stuff from more recent years. Nostalgia plays tricks on the mind.

Beggars is a great album....nice sequencing of songs...nice mix of styles.
LIB is a perfect follow-up, so strong that it stands on its own.
Sticky Fingers is again so strong that it stands on its own....the tired song on that (to my ears) is Brown Sugar, but that may be due to overexposure.
Exile captures the quinessential Stones, burnt out, outsiders, excessive, English musical Royalty that survived as a band despite of themselves...without Beggars, LIB & Sticky Fingers there would not have been and Exile.

the shoot 'em dead, brainbell jangler!

I'm sure one of the muso's can fill me in here, but there is a fantastic echo-y feeling in BB. You can hear it very clearly on Prodigal Son and Factory Girl. It makes you feel as if you are alone in a room with the Stones back in 1968.

well for me
1. Aftermath
2. Sticky fingers
3. Exile
4.B B

5.abb

under the boardwalk---down by the sea

1. Exile on mainstreet
2. Tattoo You
3. Get yer yas Yas out
4. Let it Bleed
5. Aftermath
6. Sticky Fingers

Out of the "Golden Period" (1968-1972) it's is my least favorite album. It's still a gem though.

yeah, the 68-72 area, it's like sent from heaven. not possible to pick, like, one album or song. but for the last 20 years, I think laugh i nearly died is the best. by far.

>The jump from satanic to beggars wasn't really that vast when you see it in context

"Child Of The Moon" would not sound out-of-place on either album.

VXII?

That doesn't appear to be a legit Roman numeral.

I have said before that there is little in the band's discography that prepares you for Beggars Banquet. That album grabs you from its first sound. It is a sustained mature work. It's a record worthy of a close listen. There is modesty in that record and a simplicity that is firmly grounded in American musical roots, but Jimmy Miller's production provides each song with momentum and drama. It's the band making music for itself instead of for the audience. I think Dear Doctor is one of the best songs written by Jagger-Richards. There is not a word out of place. It's a perfectly told tale. Ultimately, I think it's the band's masterpiece.

experiments done on (or during) Satanic Majesties did lay the ground for upcoming developments:
listen to the guitar on The Lantern. listen to the demo called Title 15.

There is Keith playing the acoustic guitar on The Lantern in a way that he would further explore on Beggars but it has ZERO to do with 'psychedelia' and that whole lot. He's just playing the acoustic guitar.

... whatever, skipstone - i didn't label it "psychedelia" (and i meant the electric guitar on The Lantern).
but it looks like you're in "argue with anything" mode ... and you'll probably argue with that too :E



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2009-08-09 10:32 by with sssoul.

There are many common developing threads running through...

The Satanic Sessions, Their Satanic Majesties Request, The Surrey Rehearsals, Jumpin' Jack Flash - Child of the Moon, Beggars Banquet.

Strip away the weird and wonderful from the Satanic material like The Lantern and Citadel etc and the bare bones sound isn't that far off from what is heard on Beggars Banquet.

Gold Painted Fingernails could have been on either album and not have sounded out of place.





Psychedelia? Try the lead guitars, try parts of Jigsaw Puzzle, Parachute Woman, the experimentation during sessions for Jumpin' Jack Flash, Street Fighting Man, Parachute Woman etc.

Sympathy for the Devil itself is a master piece of 60's experimentation. Even the straight ahead Factory Girl has a mellotron on it.


They were of course trying to be as out there as possible on Satanic, but the combined overall focus, presentation on Beggars Banquet is supposedly one of getting back to basics. Scratch beneath the surface and actually look at how they recorded that album, the process and experimentation which went on, the album is as experimental as TSMR, it's just done in a more focused and satisfying way.

There is an experimental, psychedelic edge to Beggars Banquet, it ain't a straight ahead classic rock album. It's one of the very reasons it's my favourite album by anyone!



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2009-08-09 10:40 by His Majesty.

with sssoul, I wasn't responding to you about the psychedelic part, that's more for His Majesty.

What's funny is what I hear on The Lantern is different than what you hear yet it seems to be of a similar view.

Well i'd say Satanic Majesties and Beggars Banquet do sound distinctly like the same band trying out very differing styles. In other words they sound distinctly related to each other in terms of the band set up, even if the direction is very different much of the time. If the group's albums were to be arranged chronologically by someone with little knowledge of the group, it wouldn't be hard to guess they came from pretty much the same period, whether in terms of the vocals or the musical sound on occasions. No Expectations and Jigsaw Puzzle especially aren't that detached from the 1967 era in terms of mood (song structure) even if the dressing (especially the slide guitar on No Expectations) and lyrical theme on No Expectations is different. I think songs like Dear Doctor, Factory Girl and Prodigal Son show the greatest departure from the 1967 sound and that's mainly due to their strong country and blues influences. In reference to Winning Ugly's comments concerning these songs - i completely disagree - it's the fact that these songs are the least formulaic in terms of typical Stones riffs and song structure that makes them so utterly charming. If the Stones primary influence was the blues originally, i can't think of many examples of them pulling it off so authentically as on Prodigal Son. They can never capture the spirit they had on Beggars Banquet again because they are no longer that band.

Satanic and Beggars are vastly different albums. As I said before BB has that acoustic thing running through - the nod to Dylan's John Wesley Harding - in so it marks a departure away from psychedelia. Having said that listen to Brian's tamboura on Street Fighting Man and tell me it's not psychedelic. It's really got that swirling shimmering classic psychedelic rock sound. Jimmy Miller produced it and he brought with him the studio craft he forged with Traffic - the guitar sound on Sympathy or Jigsaw Puzzle.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2009-08-09 12:44 by Silver Dagger.

Quote
Silver Dagger
Satanic and Beggars are vastly different albums.

Yes the completed released works are different, but when you dig a bit deeper, the jump between them isn't that vast. The Satanic Sessions box sets and The Surrey Rehearsals bootlegs were revelations for me.

Where's the psych, experimental LSD edge on Beggars Banquet?

Beggars features exotic(for the time) experimental south american influenced rhythms, sgt pepper-esque piercing lead guitars, psychedelic mellotron, sitar and tamboura, acoustic guitars turned in to electronic walls of sound, freaky off kilter electric slide guitar.





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2009-08-09 12:36 by His Majesty.

Well put His Majesty. Think you nailed it there.

Quote
skipstone

And Winning Ugly - dismissing the songs on Beggars the way you did - your name says it all. You named yourself after a pile of shit song from Dirty Work. And you think Dear Doctor is THE worst song they've ever done?

I was thinking the same thing. Great post.

I agree very much with Majesty, that the step from Satanic to Banquet is gigantic, yes, but inevitable. Like it was said - once you scratch away the dressings and decor there is the same core sound. I think the key was Jimmy Miller. yes, Keith re-discovered the guitar, Jagger was writing lyrics at a new level, but the focus and direction, the vision is most importnt. A producer, that type of producer at that particular time was the first stroke of genius towards the Golden Era.

Wow this one's got a bit heated !

1st proper Stones album I bought (age 14/ 15) .I had no idea what to buy and had no one to ask via internet !

I just thought the cover looked cool - never liked the toilet one. My vinyl copy still sounds awesome after almost 30 years ! I always go back to this album I think it's perfect in it's sequencing,performance,songs and production.
My personal favourite .

my top5 ;
BB
LIB
EOMS
SF
SG


sc uk

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skipstone
First off, there is no connection at all between Majesties and Beggars. That is the dumbest thing I've ever read. Beggars has 'psychedelia' on it? Where? Two completely utterly different bands, sounds, attitudes, performances, productions - beyond across the board.

And Winning Ugly - dismissing the songs on Beggars the way you did - your name says it all. You named yourself after a pile of shit song from Dirty Work. And you think Dear Doctor is THE worst song they've ever done?

Their worst songs have been written between 1986 and 2005 - Winning Ugly, Back To Zero, Hold Back, Rock And A Hard Place, Continental Drift, Might As Well Get Juiced, Sweet Neo Con, Streets Of Love, Rain Fall Down.

You're saying that those songs are better than Dear Doctor?

Get off the drugs.

Don't cry. You sound like an ignorant degenerate. You can't debate the merits ( or demerits ) of these tracks without resorting to a childish personal attack of someone you do not even know ??? I don't agree with Edward Twining's posts either but,at least he doesn't sound like he was raised in a " piece of s--t " trailer park. Yes, all of those songs listed in your post are better than Dear Doctor. Only three that you mentioned even come anywhere close to being as bad as Dear Doctor.

How can you defend this :

" I'm sleepin, it's a beatin'
Can't ya please take it out, and preserve it
Right there in that jar ? "

.... or the stupid voice that he uses ..... or the lack of anything in the song that resembles decent music ???


If you want to talk about drugs,too many drugs in the '60's is the only logical explanation as to why anyone would ever listen to complete garbage like Dear Doctor.


The worst songs that they've ever created were written between '66 and '68 - " Something Happened to Me Yesterday " , " Gomper " , " Sing This All Together ( See What Happens ) " , and of course " Dear Doctor " .

I would much rather listen to " Winning Ugly " and " Rock and a Hard Place " over complete garbage like that. Beggars Banquet was recorded with better sound and production than Dirty Work or Steel Wheels but,that doesn't make a worthless song any good or vice versa. The live versions of " Rock and a Hard Place " from '95 & '97 are pretty good and don't suffer from bad production. Gee,I wonder why they didn't play "Dear Doctor " on three or four different tours. The lyrics of " Hold Back " and " Rock and a Hard Place " are light years better than the songs that I mentioned from the '60's. It seems pretty obvious.

Quote
loog droog

Quote
skipstone

And Winning Ugly - dismissing the songs on Beggars the way you did - your name says it all. You named yourself after a pile of shit song from Dirty Work. And you think Dear Doctor is THE worst song they've ever done?

I was thinking the same thing. Great post.

This coming from a guy named loog droog .... wow. Face the facts that these songs are not as "golden" as they are made out to be. How about explaining why you disagree with my assessment of the filler on Beggars' Banquet? If you guys want to disagree,fine,explain why. If you can't do it,your posts are worthless. You can't even support your own arguments in favor of these tracks.

Well I always liked Dear Doctor!
A nice country tune with an amusing lyric.
What's wrong with that?


"As we say in England, it can get a bit trainspottery"

There's nothing wrong with that. You like it - I don't. Personally,I prefer their other stabs @ country music.

If those instruments that are on Beggars were used today would that be labeled psychedelic (That's like saying Abel is strictly a christian name - I'm sure it existed as a name before any christian stories or religion came along. But now it's strictly associated with being a christian name)? I just don't see/hear/think of it that way. The association with 'psychedelia' is cemented with that era - yet that doesn't make it 'psychedelic' because those instruments were used at that time. That's the point. That's the same as saying that all slide guitar is blues and all acoustic or pedal steel songs are country. Beggars, even though founded with the acoustic guitar, is a rock'n'roll album deeply based in blues, not so much "the blues" but just blues. There's acoustic guitar on Satisfaction as well as Brown Sugar and pedal steel on Shattered and Before They Make Me Run. Nobody says those songs are blues or country songs because those instruments were used.

To me that's a night and day difference from Majesties, which was just the Stones imitating something with their sound a little bit rather than just being themselves with their sound. If anything, Buttons to Beggars is the way it should be looked at in terms of growth, with Majesties being more of a side track. And in the order of Aftermath, Between The Buttons and Beggars Banquet - huge growth, even though there really is a two year gap between those two since Buttons came out in early 1967. I've always thought Majesties should have been an EP strictly consisting of We Love You, Dandelion, Citadel, 2000 Man, She's A Rainbow and 2000 Light Years From Home.

Which are, of course, great tracks, but are so...removed from what the Stones were moving from, a blues covering band that got into pop (Buttons) to what they were becoming - a blues based rock'n'roll band; not some hippy trip out 'psychedelic' Beatles immitator that was just some sort of rock'n'roll interruptus.

Winning, one does not have to explain why one likes a song. Just like you don't have to justify hating DD, and preferring Rock & Hard Place or Winning Ugly. By the same token you can not state that the words of Hold back e.g are "better" or "lightyears better" of Dear Doctor. What does "lightyears better" mean anyway in the context of lyrics? Those songs might appeal way more to you, mean more; the beat moves you more. All cool.
But you should try to accept that it can be the same way for other people and "Dear Doctor".
I happen to like Doctor; it's tongue in cheek. The words, the silly voice, the whole bogus country feel - it's great humor. And fits great after the power of Symapthy, and the melancholy of "No Expectations".

Hmm, chill out guys, no need to get so bitchy!?

Things like Dear Doctor are meant to be a bit of fun! Earth shattering pieces of music and writing they are not, but that is not the point.

They had fun writing it, fun recording it and it's fun to listen to.

So that's 3 doses of fun in one song! Funtastic!



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2009-08-09 22:42 by His Majesty.

Really when you compare the big four you are splitting hairs quality wise. Personally I prefer Sticky then maybe Exile or Beggar's.

"Lyin' awake in a cold, cold sweat. Am I overdrawn, am I going in debt?
It gets worse, the older that you get. No escape from the state of confusion I'm in.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2009-08-09 22:22 by FrankM.