Tell Me :
Talk
well, I´ll take that as a reconstruction of the past, modified and fitting to her own agenda. Think twice...
Vilhelm
Nordic Stones Vikings
Slept with @#$%&? My goodness, that is a new one. By all accounts the Corporal was quite asexual, and it is even suggested he never slept with any of his "girlfriends".
WHile Leni was not ignorant of the Third Reich, she was by no means a major player within the inner circle. However, it was clear that she was fascinated with National Socialism and like a moth to the candle flittered around the edges of decency. When she was captured it was clear she new a lot more than she was admitting and did indeed say what most Nazi's said, "I didn't know..." An interesting artist with an incredible eye, and like many artist a fallible human, and would always be associated with @#$%& and the Nazi's.
@#$%& was gay!
On a serious note: Mentioning Leni Riefenstahl in the same sentence as Albert Speer is downright inappropriate.
Schmeling received a license to 'brew' Coca Cola (after WW II, of course), so at least they didn't have the notion that Schmeling had guilt over whatever.
The only reason that Joe Louis needed Max Schmeling's financial help is because of all the back taxes he owed. Even though he had raised money for the war effort the IRS was out to get him. The HBO documentary Joe Louis, America's Hero--Betrayed explains how he got royally f**ked by his own country.
And so many loved him. How could they let this happen??
Has anyone been able to click, play and watch this interview?
When I click on the Play arrow, the image goes away and all I see is a little white square with some colors in it in the upper left corner of the larger square/rectangle.
What can I try?
p
Moral imperatives aside, Riefenstahl's "Olympia" is an undeniable masterpiece, and "Triumph Of The Will" is a towering work of art. She is one of the 20th Century's most influential filmmakers. Her influence is felt in every genre of film and photography to this day. Even fashion photography has internalized her aesthetic (see Bruce Weber's work). Whatever one may think of her personally, her talent and vision are undeniable. During my Master's film studies I was in awe of her art much as I was repulsed by her alliances and amoral compromises during the Nazi era. She never quite escaped the stench of these alliances, regardless of her attempts at moral rehabilitation during her last 65 years. Her photography was always impressive, nevertheless...her later Africa photos are stunning.
Regarding Lina Wertmüller's "Swept Away By The Deep Blue Seas Of August" (1974), (I am referring to the original, not the Madonna/Guy Ritchie abomination) I consider it to be one of the greatest films of all time...it is one of the most layered and profound studies of the political, sexual, emotional, and economic dialectic that has ever been put on film. It is my favorite film.
Whether Jagger was aware of who or what he was dealing with during this photo shoot, I don't know. During this period he was involved with a lot of the 'avant-garde' in fashion, film, and photography...so L.S. would have fit in well with this milieu...regardless, the photos she did of Jagger are pure shit...worthless Sunday Magazine fluff...crap...though Bianca looks stunning...
Now that was a powerful and yes, insightful interview about Leni Riefenstahl. The author of the book Leni had access to previously unpublished sources and interviews with several people who had been close to her or even wrere top Nazis such as Albert Speer, @#$%&'s architect and the Reich Minster of Armaments.
The woman was clearly a Nazi sympathiser and probably should have been put on trial as an both an instrument and promoter of National Socialism and its power with the masses and who made @#$%& both legitimate and supported within and, for a brief time, oustide of Germany.
Still, the struggle: where does one's individual responsibility end and that of "the state" begin, there is a fine line in all of this and with an instrument/medium as powerful as film, people who make them are in a tremendous position of power and influence.
What a b*tch. I am sorry to say this, but why would Mick want to have anything to do with such a person?
p
I think you got it right, whitem8 - she was like a moth to the candle. Like many great artists she was strongly devoted to her art and therefore quite opportunistic - just like other famous German artists of the period such as Gustav Gründgens, Heinrich George, Wilhelm Furtwängler etc. That doesn't excuse her from feeding the beast and it doesn't shed a positive light on her either. So posters like timbernadis have every right to point out her involvement and selfmade excuses. But to put her on a stage with a war criminal like Speer or even Goebbels seems quite overblown to me. In the end she was the typical follower (they couldn't have put up the 3rd Reich without many, many followers, you know). And when @#$%& took over, (too) many people, even sceptic observers, were fascinated by his power and then didn't want to remember afterwards.
In that way Riefenstahl may be a pristine example, not to mess around with the fire. And IMO you could never discuss her work without including her involement. But it would be quite limiting and simplistic to reduce her to the role of the "fallen angel" / "pact with the devil"-type. One has to admit that she was an extraordinary talent as a director and as a photographer too, which she proved time and again well after the @#$%& Regime had ended. And you also have to take into account that she was creating her Olympic film at a time when a whole Europe was fascinated by powerful "fascistoid" images, be it in movie or architecture. So it's no wonder that she was internationally awarded for her seminal work - even by the IOC (with a symbolic gold medal).
Hence her talent was so strong and her influence so profound, many artists turned to her work and took from it. You can discover her vast influence all over the Eighties (remember Grace Jones?). And part of the Sevenies too. Just look at the cover of IORR - I know it's more of a Roman image, but then again - what else did you see at Nuremberg? And now it's back to the Mick pix which, perhaps not accidentally were taken in 1974. I think it was exactly the ambivalent role of Riefenstahl that fascinated Jagger. Always the pragmatic, he didn't care much for "politics" but rather for the art in itself and, especially, the glamour factor. You know: Being photographed by @#$%& prime directress - that's even cooler than Keith's Cecil Beaton images. To be chosen by such artistic icon who'd been around for decades by then when the Stones had just been going for a dozen years... this meant, he'd really made it! Quite narcistic, but defintily not "Nazi", I think.
Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 2009-03-31 19:07 by Greenblues.
Maybe not Riefenstahl per se, but Peelaert's IORR cover is unquestionably inspired by a photo of @#$%& and several leading Nazis which is in the Bettman Archive. I've posted it here before and will dig it out when I get home as its on my home PC. The similarities are remarkable, even down to the pillars, saluting/waving sycophants and the way they're walking down the steps.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2009-03-31 18:46 by Gazza.
yes, not to mention the 30s stylings on the spectators. I thought the Nazi overtones were obvious--so what was Peelaert's point with this cover?
Talk about your favorite band.
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Re: Request for the Leni Riefenstahl pictures of Mick Jagger for the Sunday Times Magazine in 74
Posted by:
mickijaggeroo
()
Date: March 28, 2009 01:14
Quote
Voja
Don't judge a book by the cover. She was @#$%& victim. Things are not black and white. In her memo she explained all. I have extract from book (in Serbian about). So any Serb, or Croat could email me for to read real truth. Others GO TO LIBRARY!
well, I´ll take that as a reconstruction of the past, modified and fitting to her own agenda. Think twice...
Vilhelm
Nordic Stones Vikings
Re: Request for the Leni Riefenstahl pictures of Mick Jagger for the Sunday Times Magazine in 74
Posted by:
dcba
()
Date: March 28, 2009 01:33
"well, I´ll take that as a reconstruction of the past, modified and fitting to her own agenda. Think twice..."
Couldn't agree more with you Vilhelm :
- she knew nothing about death camps and the mass-killing of Jews
- she thought the German invasion troops were sunbathing in URSS
- she read "Mein Kampf" as a joke.
Sure....
Couldn't agree more with you Vilhelm :
- she knew nothing about death camps and the mass-killing of Jews
- she thought the German invasion troops were sunbathing in URSS
- she read "Mein Kampf" as a joke.
Sure....
Re: Request for the Leni Riefenstahl pictures of Mick Jagger for the Sunday Times Magazine in 74
Posted by:
whitem8
()
Date: March 28, 2009 02:46
Quote
dcba
"she hated @#$%&"
The truth is she SLEPT with @#$%&. Enough of this dead tart. I still wonder how Albert Speer got 20 years at the Nuremberg trial [en.wikipedia.org]
while L.R. was free by 1948...
Slept with @#$%&? My goodness, that is a new one. By all accounts the Corporal was quite asexual, and it is even suggested he never slept with any of his "girlfriends".
WHile Leni was not ignorant of the Third Reich, she was by no means a major player within the inner circle. However, it was clear that she was fascinated with National Socialism and like a moth to the candle flittered around the edges of decency. When she was captured it was clear she new a lot more than she was admitting and did indeed say what most Nazi's said, "I didn't know..." An interesting artist with an incredible eye, and like many artist a fallible human, and would always be associated with @#$%& and the Nazi's.
Re: Request for the Leni Riefenstahl pictures of Mick Jagger for the Sunday Times Magazine in 74
Posted by:
Tornandfrayed
()
Date: March 28, 2009 02:53
Quote
dcba
"she hated @#$%&"
The truth is she SLEPT with @#$%&. Enough of this dead tart. I still wonder how Albert Speer got 20 years at the Nuremberg trial while L.R. was free by 1948...
@#$%& was gay!
On a serious note: Mentioning Leni Riefenstahl in the same sentence as Albert Speer is downright inappropriate.
Re: Request for the Leni Riefenstahl pictures of Mick Jagger for the Sunday Times Magazine in 74
Posted by:
timbernardis
()
Date: March 28, 2009 04:29
Another such person was heavyweight champion Max Schmeling. However, in his case, I don't think his association with the Fuhrer and other top Nazis was as close as that of Riefenstahl, tho he did kinda bask in the glow for a while. I think he was more used by @#$%& as an example of Aryan supremacy, tho he did not do much to dispel it. Someone correct me here if you feel my statements are incorrect.
He defeated my (white) father's favorite boxer Joe Louis, but later Louis came back and just crushed him in like the first round at a rematch in Yankee Stadium (side note: sad to see the great venue fall victim to modernity).
Schmeling was another prominent person from that era who died in recent years. Still another who herself was not really prominent was the wife of would-be @#$%& assasin Claus von Stauffenberg who obviously gained some attention, revived by the recent movie which, say what u will about Tom Cruise (and I do not believe he was necessarily the best choice for the starring role), it did bring attention to that incident for a younger generation largely ignorant of it.
But back to Schmeling -- in later life, he and Louis became close friends, in fact the older Schmeling helped Louis out financially as well. That sort of behaviour should give hope to all of us.
p
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2009-03-28 04:31 by timbernardis.
He defeated my (white) father's favorite boxer Joe Louis, but later Louis came back and just crushed him in like the first round at a rematch in Yankee Stadium (side note: sad to see the great venue fall victim to modernity).
Schmeling was another prominent person from that era who died in recent years. Still another who herself was not really prominent was the wife of would-be @#$%& assasin Claus von Stauffenberg who obviously gained some attention, revived by the recent movie which, say what u will about Tom Cruise (and I do not believe he was necessarily the best choice for the starring role), it did bring attention to that incident for a younger generation largely ignorant of it.
But back to Schmeling -- in later life, he and Louis became close friends, in fact the older Schmeling helped Louis out financially as well. That sort of behaviour should give hope to all of us.
p
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2009-03-28 04:31 by timbernardis.
Re: Request for the Leni Riefenstahl pictures of Mick Jagger for the Sunday Times Magazine in 74
Posted by:
Palace Revolution 2000
()
Date: March 28, 2009 07:11
Quote
Voja
Every serious Rolling Stones fan have to read her controversial autobiography, Memoiren (1987), ????
I see myself as a serious Stonesfan , and have read her book, but do not see a tie-up.
Re: Request for the Leni Riefenstahl pictures of Mick Jagger for the Sunday Times Magazine in 74
Posted by:
Iris
()
Date: March 28, 2009 11:39
To get more profound insight this interview might be useful.
Re: Request for the Leni Riefenstahl pictures of Mick Jagger for the Sunday Times Magazine in 74
Posted by:
Voja
()
Date: March 28, 2009 12:14
To Palace Revolution 2000
At least I try to pay a tribute to this very woman, when to understand properly the role her films (as a medium for nazi propaganda) played in the mind of hundred of thousands of German soldiers and millions of narrow minded and easily manipulable civilians. (and I have good example for in my life, and country in recent years).
My intention is not to start a politic issue here ! I expressed a very personal point of view regarding a very unusual artist . And I must admit I have a certain sort of artistic respect for what L.R. achieved in her carrier despite some talented but highly controversial movies she has made for the dreadful nazi regime all which led to years of abomination and millions of death…And this film ‘’Trumph of the will’’ is masterpiece.
BUT HER BOOK IS NOT WRITTEN TO GAVE HER EXCUSES, SHE WANT TO GAVE E X P L A N A T I O N S. Tie with Stones is for example in obssesion and fascination (don’t tell me that any fan don’t have), and most of all > how serious job give good results. I REALLY THINK THAT MICK & Keith & Charlie are very serious in what they doing.
P.S> I’m adding Mick’s connection with her. In early 70’s my idol Mick Jagger was a pozeur (so pretentious) and his ex wife was perfect partner in that. Connection with Leni R., Andy W., Kenth Anger, Capotte, Robert Fraizer etc,etc are such good examples. Look at only their wedding (Mick & Bianca) how mascarade and carnival it was. This trendy behaviour explains Mick and Leni tie. But I have to say (confess) > Mick Jagger always know to chose right persons!!
p.s.s. ‘’Your English is horrible!’’ -< Yes I know.
At least I try to pay a tribute to this very woman, when to understand properly the role her films (as a medium for nazi propaganda) played in the mind of hundred of thousands of German soldiers and millions of narrow minded and easily manipulable civilians. (and I have good example for in my life, and country in recent years).
My intention is not to start a politic issue here ! I expressed a very personal point of view regarding a very unusual artist . And I must admit I have a certain sort of artistic respect for what L.R. achieved in her carrier despite some talented but highly controversial movies she has made for the dreadful nazi regime all which led to years of abomination and millions of death…And this film ‘’Trumph of the will’’ is masterpiece.
BUT HER BOOK IS NOT WRITTEN TO GAVE HER EXCUSES, SHE WANT TO GAVE E X P L A N A T I O N S. Tie with Stones is for example in obssesion and fascination (don’t tell me that any fan don’t have), and most of all > how serious job give good results. I REALLY THINK THAT MICK & Keith & Charlie are very serious in what they doing.
P.S> I’m adding Mick’s connection with her. In early 70’s my idol Mick Jagger was a pozeur (so pretentious) and his ex wife was perfect partner in that. Connection with Leni R., Andy W., Kenth Anger, Capotte, Robert Fraizer etc,etc are such good examples. Look at only their wedding (Mick & Bianca) how mascarade and carnival it was. This trendy behaviour explains Mick and Leni tie. But I have to say (confess) > Mick Jagger always know to chose right persons!!
p.s.s. ‘’Your English is horrible!’’ -< Yes I know.
Re: Request for the Leni Riefenstahl pictures of Mick Jagger for the Sunday Times Magazine in 74
Posted by:
JJHMick
()
Date: March 28, 2009 13:20
Quote
timbernardis
Another such person was heavyweight champion Max Schmeling.
But back to Schmeling -- in later life, he and Louis became close friends, in fact the older Schmeling helped Louis out financially as well. That sort of behaviour should give hope to all of us.
p
Schmeling received a license to 'brew' Coca Cola (after WW II, of course), so at least they didn't have the notion that Schmeling had guilt over whatever.
Re: Request for the Leni Riefenstahl pictures of Mick Jagger for the Sunday Times Magazine in 74
Posted by:
Riffbuk
()
Date: March 28, 2009 16:34
Thanks Britney for the sharing the photo!!
Regarding Leni Riefenstahl work, I have to say that she was a genious and an master at her work,
Olympia , the film for the 36 Olympics in Berlim is a complete masterwork, even today the Tv sport live events still uses her methods, and I remember study in the university the Triumph of the Will as the best example of film/propaganda ever done, and the resemblaces with any of the actual political campaign movies done for any candidate is incredible, the mixture, the editing! She was ahead of her time. I also read her memoirs and its an amazing book as well the documentary by Ray Müller’s The Wonderful, Horrible Life of Leni Riefenstahl, one of the best docs thay I´ve seen. At the moment im reading the Steven Bach book about her.
About her relation with the nazi regime, I think that they took advantge of each other. Leni saw the window of opportunity,a unique chance to show and put her craft, artistic vision into reallity , while @#$%& saw in her, another genious that he could use to spread his ideology. and in the end, as always the dictartorship takes over the individual. If she was inocent in all the process?? I really doubt so( By using prisioners as extras, its a good sign of it). but she was a genious....
Regarding Leni Riefenstahl work, I have to say that she was a genious and an master at her work,
Olympia , the film for the 36 Olympics in Berlim is a complete masterwork, even today the Tv sport live events still uses her methods, and I remember study in the university the Triumph of the Will as the best example of film/propaganda ever done, and the resemblaces with any of the actual political campaign movies done for any candidate is incredible, the mixture, the editing! She was ahead of her time. I also read her memoirs and its an amazing book as well the documentary by Ray Müller’s The Wonderful, Horrible Life of Leni Riefenstahl, one of the best docs thay I´ve seen. At the moment im reading the Steven Bach book about her.
About her relation with the nazi regime, I think that they took advantge of each other. Leni saw the window of opportunity,a unique chance to show and put her craft, artistic vision into reallity , while @#$%& saw in her, another genious that he could use to spread his ideology. and in the end, as always the dictartorship takes over the individual. If she was inocent in all the process?? I really doubt so( By using prisioners as extras, its a good sign of it). but she was a genious....
Re: Request for the Leni Riefenstahl pictures of Mick Jagger for the Sunday Times Magazine in 74
Posted by:
loog droog
()
Date: March 28, 2009 17:23
Quote
JJHMickQuote
timbernardis
Another such person was heavyweight champion Max Schmeling.
But back to Schmeling -- in later life, he and Louis became close friends, in fact the older Schmeling helped Louis out financially as well. That sort of behaviour should give hope to all of us.
p
Schmeling received a license to 'brew' Coca Cola (after WW II, of course), so at least they didn't have the notion that Schmeling had guilt over whatever.
The only reason that Joe Louis needed Max Schmeling's financial help is because of all the back taxes he owed. Even though he had raised money for the war effort the IRS was out to get him. The HBO documentary Joe Louis, America's Hero--Betrayed explains how he got royally f**ked by his own country.
And so many loved him. How could they let this happen??
Re: Request for the Leni Riefenstahl pictures of Mick Jagger for the Sunday Times Magazine in 74
Posted by:
timbernardis
()
Date: March 28, 2009 23:41
Has anyone been able to click, play and watch this interview?
When I click on the Play arrow, the image goes away and all I see is a little white square with some colors in it in the upper left corner of the larger square/rectangle.
What can I try?
p
Re: Request for the Leni Riefenstahl pictures of Mick Jagger for the Sunday Times Magazine in 74
Posted by:
Voja
()
Date: March 29, 2009 00:16
I seen and hear all perfectly!
Re: Request for the Leni Riefenstahl pictures of Mick Jagger for the Sunday Times Magazine in 74
Posted by:
guitarbastard
()
Date: March 29, 2009 03:32
she was a stupid nazi bi tch! and what i hate most about her (although i have to admit that "triumph des willens" is fantastic from a aesthetic point of view) that she always denied it. so that makes her a lying nazi b it ch!!!
Re: Request for the Leni Riefenstahl pictures of Mick Jagger for the Sunday Times Magazine in 74
Posted by:
lunar!!!
()
Date: March 29, 2009 04:05
Quote
timbernardis
Another such person was heavyweight champion Max Schmeling. However, in his case, I don't think his association with the Fuhrer and other top Nazis was as close as that of Riefenstahl, tho he did kinda bask in the glow for a while. I think he was more used by @#$%& as an example of Aryan supremacy, tho he did not do much to dispel it. Someone correct me here if you feel my statements are incorrect.
He defeated my (white) father's favorite boxer Joe Louis, but later Louis came back and just crushed him in like the first round at a rematch in Yankee Stadium (side note: sad to see the great venue fall victim to modernity).
Schmeling was another prominent person from that era who died in recent years. Still another who herself was not really prominent was the wife of would-be @#$%& assasin Claus von Stauffenberg who obviously gained some attention, revived by the recent movie which, say what u will about Tom Cruise (and I do not believe he was necessarily the best choice for the starring role), it did bring attention to that incident for a younger generation largely ignorant of it.
But back to Schmeling -- in later life, he and Louis became close friends, in fact the older Schmeling helped Louis out financially as well. That sort of behaviour should give hope to all of us....he died in the summer of 2005 0r 06 at age 99...
p
Re: Request for the Leni Riefenstahl pictures of Mick Jagger for the Sunday Times Magazine in 74
Posted by:
lunar!!!
()
Date: March 29, 2009 04:08
Quote
lunar!!!Quote
timbernardis
Another such person was heavyweight champion Max Schmeling. However, in his case, I don't think his association with the Fuhrer and other top Nazis was as close as that of Riefenstahl, tho he did kinda bask in the glow for a while. I think he was more used by @#$%& as an example of Aryan supremacy, tho he did not do much to dispel it. Someone correct me here if you feel my statements are incorrect.
He defeated my (white) father's favorite boxer Joe Louis, but later Louis came back and just crushed him in like the first round at a rematch in Yankee Stadium (side note: sad to see the great venue fall victim to modernity).
Schmeling was another prominent person from that era who died in recent years. Still another who herself was not really prominent was the wife of would-be @#$%& assasin Claus von Stauffenberg who obviously gained some attention, revived by the recent movie which, say what u will about Tom Cruise (and I do not believe he was necessarily the best choice for the starring role), it did bring attention to that incident for a younger generation largely ignorant of it.
But back to Schmeling -- in later life, he and Louis became close friends, in fact the older Schmeling helped Louis out financially as well. That sort of behaviour should give hope to all of us....he died in the summer of 2005 0r 06 at age 99...he was a paratrooper who participated in the airborne drop on Crete--was injured and that was the extent of his military activity---was used as a propaganda showpiece for the third reich 'tho...
p
Re: Request for the Leni Riefenstahl pictures of Mick Jagger for the Sunday Times Magazine in 74
Posted by:
timbernardis
()
Date: March 29, 2009 05:14
Right u are lunar.
I read an article a few years ago in Sports Illustrated, the premier American sports magazine as it has been for generations. It was written by Frank DeFord, a longtime National Public Radio (NPR) sports journalist and author of books of sports.
In it, he notes Schmeling's refusal to fire his Jewish-American manager as @#$%& had wanted as well as his hiding two Jewish boys on the Kristallnacht.
February 14, 2005
A Clashing Symbol
Shrugging off @#$%&'s embrace, Max Schmeling forged a friendship with his greatest ring rival
Frank Deford
It is ironic that the last famous German who is associated with the Third Reich to die was not a Nazi. But Max Schmeling, powerful and handsome, who finally passed on last week just months shy of his 100th birthday, was at once "the Heil @#$%& hero" who brought the greatest sports glory to the F?hrer and a very conflicted, very human citizen who wrestled with the devil as often as he boxed with the world's best fighters.
Schmeling is, of course, best known for his two fights with Joe Louis. In 1936, when the German was already 30 and supposed to be a washed-up pug, he handed the Brown Bomber his first defeat. Then, in 1938, Louis brutally reduced Schmeling to a gory pulp in less than two minutes. The fights themselves, though, were on the undercard to ideology, as Schmeling and Louis were generally portrayed as stand-ins for fascism and democracy.
Schmeling actually came to fame before @#$%& took power in 1933. A mere laborer who built up his mind as well as his body, Schmeling not only became heavyweight champion but also part of the racy Berlin avant-garde set. He married a beautiful movie star, Anny Ondra.
Candidly, Schmeling would later admit to having turned his head to the obvious horrors around him. He met @#$%& on several occasions, but at the same time he tried to keep some distance from the F?hrer. Schmeling refused to accept @#$%&'s Nazi Dagger of Honor; he would not fire his Jewish-American manager, Joe Jacobs, and at the very risk of his life he hid two Jewish boys in his apartment on Kristallnacht, the brutal Nazi pogrom of 1938.
This was after Louis had annihilated him and Schmeling was no longer a useful figure to the Nazis. They paid him back for his renegade ways by drafting him into the army when he was 34.
Schmeling was wounded in 1941 while parachuting into Crete, but he survived to become an extremely wealthy businessman--largely thanks to his holdings in that most American company: Coca-Cola.
He became friends with his old foe, Louis, and often gave the indigent old champ money. No athlete ever so faced the ambiguities and dissonance of life as did Max Schmeling. -- Frank Deford
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2009-03-29 05:15 by timbernardis.
I read an article a few years ago in Sports Illustrated, the premier American sports magazine as it has been for generations. It was written by Frank DeFord, a longtime National Public Radio (NPR) sports journalist and author of books of sports.
In it, he notes Schmeling's refusal to fire his Jewish-American manager as @#$%& had wanted as well as his hiding two Jewish boys on the Kristallnacht.
February 14, 2005
A Clashing Symbol
Shrugging off @#$%&'s embrace, Max Schmeling forged a friendship with his greatest ring rival
Frank Deford
It is ironic that the last famous German who is associated with the Third Reich to die was not a Nazi. But Max Schmeling, powerful and handsome, who finally passed on last week just months shy of his 100th birthday, was at once "the Heil @#$%& hero" who brought the greatest sports glory to the F?hrer and a very conflicted, very human citizen who wrestled with the devil as often as he boxed with the world's best fighters.
Schmeling is, of course, best known for his two fights with Joe Louis. In 1936, when the German was already 30 and supposed to be a washed-up pug, he handed the Brown Bomber his first defeat. Then, in 1938, Louis brutally reduced Schmeling to a gory pulp in less than two minutes. The fights themselves, though, were on the undercard to ideology, as Schmeling and Louis were generally portrayed as stand-ins for fascism and democracy.
Schmeling actually came to fame before @#$%& took power in 1933. A mere laborer who built up his mind as well as his body, Schmeling not only became heavyweight champion but also part of the racy Berlin avant-garde set. He married a beautiful movie star, Anny Ondra.
Candidly, Schmeling would later admit to having turned his head to the obvious horrors around him. He met @#$%& on several occasions, but at the same time he tried to keep some distance from the F?hrer. Schmeling refused to accept @#$%&'s Nazi Dagger of Honor; he would not fire his Jewish-American manager, Joe Jacobs, and at the very risk of his life he hid two Jewish boys in his apartment on Kristallnacht, the brutal Nazi pogrom of 1938.
This was after Louis had annihilated him and Schmeling was no longer a useful figure to the Nazis. They paid him back for his renegade ways by drafting him into the army when he was 34.
Schmeling was wounded in 1941 while parachuting into Crete, but he survived to become an extremely wealthy businessman--largely thanks to his holdings in that most American company: Coca-Cola.
He became friends with his old foe, Louis, and often gave the indigent old champ money. No athlete ever so faced the ambiguities and dissonance of life as did Max Schmeling. -- Frank Deford
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2009-03-29 05:15 by timbernardis.
Re: Request for the Leni Riefenstahl pictures of Mick Jagger for the Sunday Times Magazine in 74
Posted by:
dcba
()
Date: March 29, 2009 12:34
"she was a genious and an master at her work,"
Genius? Please save this word for Eisenstein, Fritz Lang, Hitch or Kubrick
After WWII she became a photoreporter and a not very good one at that...
Sucking the IIIrd Reich's d!ck is the only thing she'll be remembered for...
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2009-03-29 12:35 by dcba.
Genius? Please save this word for Eisenstein, Fritz Lang, Hitch or Kubrick
After WWII she became a photoreporter and a not very good one at that...
Sucking the IIIrd Reich's d!ck is the only thing she'll be remembered for...
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2009-03-29 12:35 by dcba.
Re: Request for the Leni Riefenstahl pictures of Mick Jagger for the Sunday Times Magazine in 74
Posted by:
Turd On The Run
()
Date: March 29, 2009 13:33
Quote
CindyC
is that the lady that did that god awful swept away movie?
Moral imperatives aside, Riefenstahl's "Olympia" is an undeniable masterpiece, and "Triumph Of The Will" is a towering work of art. She is one of the 20th Century's most influential filmmakers. Her influence is felt in every genre of film and photography to this day. Even fashion photography has internalized her aesthetic (see Bruce Weber's work). Whatever one may think of her personally, her talent and vision are undeniable. During my Master's film studies I was in awe of her art much as I was repulsed by her alliances and amoral compromises during the Nazi era. She never quite escaped the stench of these alliances, regardless of her attempts at moral rehabilitation during her last 65 years. Her photography was always impressive, nevertheless...her later Africa photos are stunning.
Regarding Lina Wertmüller's "Swept Away By The Deep Blue Seas Of August" (1974), (I am referring to the original, not the Madonna/Guy Ritchie abomination) I consider it to be one of the greatest films of all time...it is one of the most layered and profound studies of the political, sexual, emotional, and economic dialectic that has ever been put on film. It is my favorite film.
Whether Jagger was aware of who or what he was dealing with during this photo shoot, I don't know. During this period he was involved with a lot of the 'avant-garde' in fashion, film, and photography...so L.S. would have fit in well with this milieu...regardless, the photos she did of Jagger are pure shit...worthless Sunday Magazine fluff...crap...though Bianca looks stunning...
Re: Request for the Leni Riefenstahl pictures of Mick Jagger for the Sunday Times Magazine in 74
Posted by:
mickijaggeroo
()
Date: March 29, 2009 13:44
Maybe she was the inspiration for this cover?:
Vilhelm
Nordic Stones Vikings
Vilhelm
Nordic Stones Vikings
Re: Request for the Leni Riefenstahl pictures of Mick Jagger for the Sunday Times Magazine in 74
Posted by:
timbernardis
()
Date: March 29, 2009 16:07
wow, vilhelm, never thought of that, yes the similarities are there.
but there also seem to be elements of eastern religions there too, perhaps a blending; someone else can better comment on the elements in the cover foto and their connections and possible meanings
Also, ever noticed that the stones colors and those of the third reich are the same, as Blue Oyster Cvult put it "the red and the black" (and the white) -- i wouldnt put two and two together there, just a thought and an interesting coincidence; yet red is the color of strong emotion, an element to be found in both, tho obviously used for different ends
And Turd, watch out, u might get branded as an intellectual elitist on this board!!!
a german friend just stated to me that leni was mesmerized or at least interested in men who had power over the masses
p
but there also seem to be elements of eastern religions there too, perhaps a blending; someone else can better comment on the elements in the cover foto and their connections and possible meanings
Also, ever noticed that the stones colors and those of the third reich are the same, as Blue Oyster Cvult put it "the red and the black" (and the white) -- i wouldnt put two and two together there, just a thought and an interesting coincidence; yet red is the color of strong emotion, an element to be found in both, tho obviously used for different ends
And Turd, watch out, u might get branded as an intellectual elitist on this board!!!
a german friend just stated to me that leni was mesmerized or at least interested in men who had power over the masses
p
Re: Request for the Leni Riefenstahl pictures of Mick Jagger for the Sunday Times Magazine in 74
Posted by:
timbernardis
()
Date: March 31, 2009 07:58
Now that was a powerful and yes, insightful interview about Leni Riefenstahl. The author of the book Leni had access to previously unpublished sources and interviews with several people who had been close to her or even wrere top Nazis such as Albert Speer, @#$%&'s architect and the Reich Minster of Armaments.
The woman was clearly a Nazi sympathiser and probably should have been put on trial as an both an instrument and promoter of National Socialism and its power with the masses and who made @#$%& both legitimate and supported within and, for a brief time, oustide of Germany.
Still, the struggle: where does one's individual responsibility end and that of "the state" begin, there is a fine line in all of this and with an instrument/medium as powerful as film, people who make them are in a tremendous position of power and influence.
What a b*tch. I am sorry to say this, but why would Mick want to have anything to do with such a person?
p
Re: Request for the Leni Riefenstahl pictures of Mick Jagger for the Sunday Times Magazine in 74
Posted by:
Greenblues
()
Date: March 31, 2009 12:18
Quote
whitem8Quote
dcba
"she hated @#$%&"
The truth is she SLEPT with @#$%&. Enough of this dead tart. I still wonder how Albert Speer got 20 years at the Nuremberg trial [en.wikipedia.org]
while L.R. was free by 1948...
Slept with @#$%&? My goodness, that is a new one. By all accounts the Corporal was quite asexual, and it is even suggested he never slept with any of his "girlfriends".
WHile Leni was not ignorant of the Third Reich, she was by no means a major player within the inner circle. However, it was clear that she was fascinated with National Socialism and like a moth to the candle flittered around the edges of decency. When she was captured it was clear she new a lot more than she was admitting and did indeed say what most Nazi's said, "I didn't know..." An interesting artist with an incredible eye, and like many artist a fallible human, and would always be associated with @#$%& and the Nazi's.
I think you got it right, whitem8 - she was like a moth to the candle. Like many great artists she was strongly devoted to her art and therefore quite opportunistic - just like other famous German artists of the period such as Gustav Gründgens, Heinrich George, Wilhelm Furtwängler etc. That doesn't excuse her from feeding the beast and it doesn't shed a positive light on her either. So posters like timbernadis have every right to point out her involvement and selfmade excuses. But to put her on a stage with a war criminal like Speer or even Goebbels seems quite overblown to me. In the end she was the typical follower (they couldn't have put up the 3rd Reich without many, many followers, you know). And when @#$%& took over, (too) many people, even sceptic observers, were fascinated by his power and then didn't want to remember afterwards.
In that way Riefenstahl may be a pristine example, not to mess around with the fire. And IMO you could never discuss her work without including her involement. But it would be quite limiting and simplistic to reduce her to the role of the "fallen angel" / "pact with the devil"-type. One has to admit that she was an extraordinary talent as a director and as a photographer too, which she proved time and again well after the @#$%& Regime had ended. And you also have to take into account that she was creating her Olympic film at a time when a whole Europe was fascinated by powerful "fascistoid" images, be it in movie or architecture. So it's no wonder that she was internationally awarded for her seminal work - even by the IOC (with a symbolic gold medal).
Hence her talent was so strong and her influence so profound, many artists turned to her work and took from it. You can discover her vast influence all over the Eighties (remember Grace Jones?). And part of the Sevenies too. Just look at the cover of IORR - I know it's more of a Roman image, but then again - what else did you see at Nuremberg? And now it's back to the Mick pix which, perhaps not accidentally were taken in 1974. I think it was exactly the ambivalent role of Riefenstahl that fascinated Jagger. Always the pragmatic, he didn't care much for "politics" but rather for the art in itself and, especially, the glamour factor. You know: Being photographed by @#$%& prime directress - that's even cooler than Keith's Cecil Beaton images. To be chosen by such artistic icon who'd been around for decades by then when the Stones had just been going for a dozen years... this meant, he'd really made it! Quite narcistic, but defintily not "Nazi", I think.
Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 2009-03-31 19:07 by Greenblues.
Re: Request for the Leni Riefenstahl pictures of Mick Jagger for the Sunday Times Magazine in 74
Posted by:
JimmyPhelge
()
Date: March 31, 2009 13:32
I still wonder how Albert Speer got 20 years at the Nuremberg trial
while L.R. was free by 1948.
Maybe because Albert Speer was @#$%&'s minister of armaments.
while L.R. was free by 1948.
Maybe because Albert Speer was @#$%&'s minister of armaments.
Re: Request for the Leni Riefenstahl pictures of Mick Jagger for the Sunday Times Magazine in 74
Posted by:
Gazza
()
Date: March 31, 2009 18:35
Quote
mickijaggeroo
Maybe she was the inspiration for this cover?:
Maybe not Riefenstahl per se, but Peelaert's IORR cover is unquestionably inspired by a photo of @#$%& and several leading Nazis which is in the Bettman Archive. I've posted it here before and will dig it out when I get home as its on my home PC. The similarities are remarkable, even down to the pillars, saluting/waving sycophants and the way they're walking down the steps.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2009-03-31 18:46 by Gazza.
Re: Request for the Leni Riefenstahl pictures of Mick Jagger for the Sunday Times Magazine in 74
Posted by:
Greenblues
()
Date: March 31, 2009 19:00
That's interesting. I was sure there was some kind of "inspiration" at work here. But I didn't think it was that obvious.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2009-03-31 19:04 by Greenblues.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2009-03-31 19:04 by Greenblues.
Re: Request for the Leni Riefenstahl pictures of Mick Jagger for the Sunday Times Magazine in 74
Posted by:
timbernardis
()
Date: March 31, 2009 19:05
this may be it, but someone told me there was another one even more closely in alignment with the album cover:
The Roman style pillars in the background kinda compare but the crowd is not giving him the fascist salute.
u know there are pics of members of the Stones and the Who in nazi uniforms from the 60s, maybe 70s, and of course the punks did a lot of that, but mostly for shock value, not cuz they were pro nazi.
still i realise it is a totally different thing to a german and i doubt there were ANY german punks wearing swastikas as they would have been arrested.
but i do NOT think the stones based their colours deliberately on the third reich,just as i do not believe mick is pronazi/antijewish or whatever just cuz he did some work with leni.
But I do wonder and scatch my head tryin to figure out what was in his mind, maybe just a working with a celebrity thing as someone said. But can that be taken as kinda unknowing/not wanting to know/callous on his part?
Hate to say it again, but there are shades of Celebrity and Idolatry that seem to abound in this topic. Who is idolising who?
p
The Roman style pillars in the background kinda compare but the crowd is not giving him the fascist salute.
u know there are pics of members of the Stones and the Who in nazi uniforms from the 60s, maybe 70s, and of course the punks did a lot of that, but mostly for shock value, not cuz they were pro nazi.
still i realise it is a totally different thing to a german and i doubt there were ANY german punks wearing swastikas as they would have been arrested.
but i do NOT think the stones based their colours deliberately on the third reich,just as i do not believe mick is pronazi/antijewish or whatever just cuz he did some work with leni.
But I do wonder and scatch my head tryin to figure out what was in his mind, maybe just a working with a celebrity thing as someone said. But can that be taken as kinda unknowing/not wanting to know/callous on his part?
Hate to say it again, but there are shades of Celebrity and Idolatry that seem to abound in this topic. Who is idolising who?
p
Re: Request for the Leni Riefenstahl pictures of Mick Jagger for the Sunday Times Magazine in 74
Posted by:
Anonymous User
()
Date: March 31, 2009 19:14
i do not believe for a second that mick did not know who he was dealing with ,mick is one of the most calculating humans on earth .as far as leni is concerned .lesser individuals went to the gallows at nuremberg .so that to me seems to be UNJUST !!!
Re: Request for the Leni Riefenstahl pictures of Mick Jagger for the Sunday Times Magazine in 74
Posted by:
cc
()
Date: March 31, 2009 19:20
Quote
GazzaQuote
mickijaggeroo
Maybe she was the inspiration for this cover?:
Maybe not Riefenstahl per se, but Peelaert's IORR cover is unquestionably inspired by a photo of @#$%& and several leading Nazis which is in the Bettman Archive. I've posted it here before and will dig it out when I get home as its on my home PC. The similarities are remarkable, even down to the pillars, saluting/waving sycophants and the way they're walking down the steps.
yes, not to mention the 30s stylings on the spectators. I thought the Nazi overtones were obvious--so what was Peelaert's point with this cover?
Re: Request for the Leni Riefenstahl pictures of Mick Jagger for the Sunday Times Magazine in 74
Posted by:
Gazza
()
Date: March 31, 2009 19:21
That's not the one, Tim - the one I'm thinking of is so blatant, its quite striking.
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