Of course, it won't do harm to the Stones.

Betrayals of trust generally are upsetting to most of us. I don't agree that "most" people write books only for money." Traditionally some of the finest writers were recognized long after their deaths and scrimped through their lives.

Often it's a love of and belief in factual history and a true desire to "share" that drives them. Having said that, I'm not so sure that excerpts in 3 consecutive Sundays of The New York Post, a tabloid, constitutes "sharing." They pay big bucks for serial rights with dirt. We all have to make choices and since we haven't read the entire book at this point we don't need to put the author of "Under Their Thumb" under the microscope.

Perhaps one day he'll phone up his old pal Ronnie and offer to do "My New Life With a Russian Teenager."

Quote
stonesrule
I don't agree that "most" people write books only for money." Traditionally some of the finest writers were recognized long after their deaths and scrimped through their lives.

oh..that's right, people write books with the intent that they never
see the light of day or end up as WORST SELLERS....so that they can continue
to "scrimp" the rest of their lives. (????)

even those that write for the love of the craft etc.... hope to be recognized
and earn a living (or more).

artists & writers that lived like paupers during their lives but then
became wildly popular (& valued) after their deaths...did not intend for things to
work out that way.

but i'm not sure why we're comparing "finest writers" to bill german anyway.


IORR............but I like it!

good point...don't see this person as a journalist....more of a syncophant really..one fawning article too many for me..

STONES JAM!! MICKEYS RULES!!! (burp) NADER IN 2016!!!!! GO GIANTS!!

...............I hope German's book is better than the exerpt......by the way the NY Post is sleazyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy.

Why shouldn't he write about it? That's what he has been doing for lots of years anyway. Still as a kid, he wasn't afraid to serve the juicy stuff. I think we'll get a different story than most other stones books are telling. The sensational stuff always leaks out before release, it's not German's fault...

Excerpt is great. I wanted more. All this book is gonna do is solidify the Stones legend as the greatest R&R band ever. Cant wait to read this book. Probably in one sitting. This guy was "in the shit" so to speak. Mick in his grill ??!! Are u kidding me??? I cant wait for this book. And i gotta say Keith is the coolest person. Ever. Living or dead. The guy just transcends everything. When he is not trying to live up to the Keith image there is no doubt in my mind that he is just the coolest cat ever. My hero since i was 8 yrs old. And now that i am 36 i know why. Cant wait to read this

Funny, all through the 80's I thought the Stones are 'clean', and that the bad days are gone... just another myth! They had very good PR people at the time!

- Doxa

Booze, weed and coke were always there. With all the Stones. There has never been a "clean" period for those guys. Maybe Bill. But thats about it.

what exactly were they talking about? Mick did not do Live Aid because of the emotional blackmailing?

No. Mick did Live Aid. Then Keith and Ron played with Bob.

Book extracts serialized in the press usually focus on the perceived scandalous episodes in the artists life.
I mean if Bill G drones on about the studio techniques employed by our boys,how they build up a song etc, it aint gonna grap Jo Public is it? So that won't be in the extracts.
Remember the Phillip Norman book on John Lennon which came out last year?
This was serialized in one of the UK papers.What did they feature? The possibility that their may have been some sexual chemistry between our Johnny and Mother.
Of course neither of the two participants are alive, so who knows? A previous JL bio suggested that he might have in some way been responsible for the death of Stu Sutcliffe...again can never be proved. And so it goes on.

I think Bill's book looks very promising. I never purchased his mag. so for me there should be some new material. But for those who did and/or live and sleep the Stones, it remains to be seen whether the book will add any new insights.

"by the way the NY Post is sleazyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy."

[news.yahoo.com]

Quote
Doxa
Funny, all through the 80's I thought the Stones are 'clean', and that the bad days are gone... just another myth! They had very good PR people at the time!

- Doxa

myth?? other than the fact that Mick got physically fit & stopped
smoking cigarettes...what made you think the band was "clean"?
Probably CLEANER but not clean.

I'm looking forward to reading more BG anecdotes.

Maybe BG was in charge of emptying Keith's Jack Daniels bottle and refilling it
with Coca Cola.


IORR............but I like it!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2009-02-19 16:13 by sweet neo con.

From StonesDoug on Shidoobee -- Message from Bill German

Bill German book signing in Brooklyn 2/26

He's gonna do a SHIDOOBEE signing in May but would appreciate anyone that can make it to Brooklyn, to be there.

Hi everyone, My new book, Under Their Thumb: How a Nice Boy from Brooklyn Got Mixed Up with The Rolling Stones (and Lived to Tell About It), comes out in three weeks. I'd love to see some of you at my book signing in Brooklyn, the place where it all began for me.

Thursday, February 26, at 7 PM Barnes & Noble 106 Court Street in the Brooklyn Heights neighborhood If you're in the New York area, please stop by. It's easy to get to by car or subway.

Visit www.BillGerman.com for details, as well as for an excerpt of the book, my first-ever blog, and some never-before-seen Stones photos.

The book will be available at all Borders and Barnes & Noble stores, as of February 24. Barnes & Noble should have it on their "New Arrivals" table the first couple of weeks it's out. At Borders, it'll probably be on the "Biography" table. And of course, you can order the book right now on Amazon.

I hope to see you on the 26th!

All the best, Bill German

Quote
timbernardis
From StonesDoug on Shidoobee -- Message from Bill German
Bill German book signing in Brooklyn 2/26

Also posted here on IORR:
[www.iorr.org]

I emailed Bill German and received this response (I don't think he'd mind that I reprinted it here):




IORR............but I like it!

Thanks for sharing that, Sweet Neo Con. I was a subscriber, too. I had every issue from Vol. 1 starting with no. 18 with Charlie on the cover to promote Rocket 88. Bill German was very generous and down to earth and would scribble messages on the mailing envelope in response to comments I had sent. Getting BB or Connection in the mail was a real treat and it was a sad day when it finally wound down. I subscribed to Stones People Magazine and IORR for awhile, but the expense and the availability of the internet made me set all of that aside as I settled down and mortgaged up my life.

A love letter to Keith perhaps....Probably more like a poison pill to Mick.

"It's just some friends of mine and they're busting down the door"

Doxa writes,
"The new and 'sober' Keith demanded his share of the leadership, but seemingly Jagger had not any intentions to give up the lead, and let Keith to mess around. And he never did. Jagger actually came out as a winner of that ego-war of the 80's. It was Jagger and his solo tour concept that took over the Stones from 1989 on, Seemingly Keith gave up all his demands just to get the band on road again. But it was no a band lead by Keith's musical instincts. THAT band did not survived the 80's."

While the point that Keith demanded his share of the leadership and Mick was reluctant to give up any ground is well-known to any Stones fan, I disagree completely with the assessment that Jagger "came out as a winner of that ego-war of the 80's". In fact, it is quite the opposite. I remember clearly that era's prevailing conventional wisdom, and it was that Keith - with his superb and well-received 1988 solo album 'Talk Is Cheap', and his kick-ass new band, the Expensive Winos - had easily and in one stroke trumped all of Jagger's failed efforts to ignite a solo career during the 80's. That album gave Keith the moral authority, the critical kudos, and the artistic leverage to meet with Jagger on equal terms to discuss the Stone's reunion.

Fact: When Jagger called Richards about a possible meeting to discuss a Stones reunion, it was Keith that was in the ascendancy and Mick in need of the boost only the Stones could give his ego and pocketbook. Keith came out the winner of that ego-war, Doxa. What he then did with his winnings within the band's internecine politics is up to debate - his victory is not.

Quote
Rocky Dijon
Thanks for sharing that, Sweet Neo Con. I was a subscriber, too. I had every issue from Vol. 1 starting with no. 18 with Charlie on the cover to promote Rocket 88. Bill German was very generous and down to earth and would scribble messages on the mailing envelope in response to comments I had sent. Getting BB or Connection in the mail was a real treat and it was a sad day when it finally wound down.

That's exactly how I feel Rocky. Pre-internet....the BB "fanzine" was a treat!

And....I knew Bill would respond to my email...cuz that's just the kind of nice guy that he is.

I probably should have included my email to him...
Basically...I asked if Keith had given him his blessing and I alerted
him to the discussion on IORR that some think he is betraying the
Stones based on the excerpt and speculation....and a couple other questions.

Bill...I hope you don't mind that I posted the email.

Bill...I should have asked if you've ever posted on IORR under a pseudonym.


IORR............but I like it!

Quote
Turd On The Run
Doxa writes,
"The new and 'sober' Keith demanded his share of the leadership, but seemingly Jagger had not any intentions to give up the lead, and let Keith to mess around. And he never did. Jagger actually came out as a winner of that ego-war of the 80's. It was Jagger and his solo tour concept that took over the Stones from 1989 on, Seemingly Keith gave up all his demands just to get the band on road again. But it was no a band lead by Keith's musical instincts. THAT band did not survived the 80's."

While the point that Keith demanded his share of the leadership and Mick was reluctant to give up any ground is well-known to any Stones fan, I disagree completely with the assessment that Jagger "came out as a winner of that ego-war of the 80's". In fact, it is quite the opposite. I remember clearly that era's prevailing conventional wisdom, and it was that Keith - with his superb and well-received 1988 solo album 'Talk Is Cheap', and his kick-ass new band, the Expensive Winos - had easily and in one stroke trumped all of Jagger's failed efforts to ignite a solo career during the 80's. That album gave Keith the moral authority, the critical kudos, and the artistic leverage to meet with Jagger on equal terms to discuss the Stone's reunion.

Fact: When Jagger called Richards about a possible meeting to discuss a Stones reunion, it was Keith that was in the ascendancy and Mick in need of the boost only the Stones could give his ego and pocketbook. Keith came out the winner of that ego-war, Doxa. What he then did with his winnings within the band's internecine politics is up to debate - his victory is not.

Thanks Turd for your reply. I need to say that for years I thought the way you do. Jagger was publicly humilated (by his failure solo career) and it looked like that he went begging back to Keith like a prodigal son. And yes, Keith had that moral superioty in many sense.

But I don't think this picture is totally correct if we look what actually happened when the Stones 'came back' in 1989. Whatever the meetings were like, it looks like that Mick came out as a winner as far as the future of The Rolling Stones was concerned. He brought the musical concept of his solo tours, and just thrown the rest of the Stones to the roles needed for that concept. The roles were seemingly reduced: Bill's wild grooves were gone, and most of all, the guitars didn't anymore lead the show. If Keith really won the ego-war, he played his cards goddamn bad in those negotations! Seemingly, for him, getting the band together, and feel morally superior (by showing Mick whatever) was good enough. Mick brought the professional back-up army to take care of the music, and with this move, he took over from Keith the musical leadership - the thing Keith always had onstage till 1982. If Keith really had so good cards in his hands in 1989 - how he allowed that to happen? He was still very strong guitarist in 1989,(Perhaps the reason was that Keith wanted to be like a second frontman, and not anymore the musical director - Mick gave him that showman role because, after all, he needed Keith most for his presence and for his image.)

So my point is that Jagger is much more cleverer guy than perhaps he let us know. With his thick skin he took the public punches and kicks that were needed to be taken, and let Keith to mess around in public, act idiot as much he pleases, but keeps his fingers out of the true musical leadership of the band that is now totally controlled by Jagger. Mick needs The Stones - and for many people Keith is The Stones - but it is his band, more than ever. Keith is a shadow of his past these days.

- Doxa



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2009-02-21 01:52 by Doxa.

The second excerpt is up. www.nypost.com Hilarious. Nice photo spread....real nice.
This 2nd part part has a heads up for his signing on Thurs. at Barnes & Noble. Awesome
GlimmaSista - T



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2009-02-22 07:44 by GlimmaSistas.

I must say I agree with Doxa. Yes, Mick fell on his face with PRIMITIVE COOL
(an underrated album in my view despite the inclusion of the dreadful "Let's Work") and Keith came out the media darling with the excellent TALK IS CHEAP, but every tour starting with STEEL WHEELS follows Mick's solo tours not only in staging, but in arrangements. Compare the LICKS performance of "Can't You Hear Me Knocking" to the tour rehearsal in 1988 and you'll see what I mean and that's only one of countless examples. The only time Keith won out was with the VOODOO LOUNGE album being very much Winos meets the Stones. BRIDGES is truly half a Mick solo effort and half a Keith solo effort with Ronnie and Charlie added on top to call it a band effort. The tours for both albums were still Mick's vision from 1988. Since BRIDGES, Mick has also taken complete control in the studio. There's little doubt that the FOUR NEW LICKS and A BIGGER BANG are largely Mick solo tracks with the others overdubbing where appropriate. Have a listen to the lyrics of "Infamy" and see if it doesn't sound like a valid assessment.

my take is a bit different: there was NO WINNER - neither Mick, nor Keith.

the formula for solo albums is quite simple: if you stick to the Stones sound, Stones fans will praise - and if you move too far away from the Stones sound, Stones fans almost universally dismiss them. See Keiths efforts - both solo albums are loved by Stones fans. See Micks efforts - his solo albums are dismissed by Stones fans EXCEPT Wandering Spirit which sounds very close to the Stones.

but theres a world outside the Stones fan base: Mick tried to reach it with Primitive Cool - and he failed. Stones fans didnt like it, and outside the Stones fan base it left people cold. Keith, in a way, played it safe and did not even try to go outside the paths the Stones were following since decades - consequently, the Stones fan base praised him, but - just like Mick - he did not attract a bigger audience outside the Stones fan base.

in fact, neither Micks nor Keiths solo efforts were commercial successes like both of them experienced with the Stones.

I think both realized that they could carry on doing solo for some years to come, but would most probably have to face lesser and lesser commercial success with each successive solo album, once the novelty factor of Mick and Keith going solo would wear off.

I think BOTH realized that their SUPERSTAR STATUS was severely threatened if they would follow their solo routes - thats what Keith meant when he mentioned tellig Mick that the "Stones as a band is bigger than the sum of its parts" - and the simple fact that both, Mick AND Keith did not want to miss the financial rewards and ego feed of being the "centre of a hurricane" connected with Stones superstar status in the years to come.

these hard facts led to their decision to overcome any personal differences and work as the Stones again.

in other words - both lost the solo game, and therefore decided to go for a "win-win" situation.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2009-02-22 18:04 by alimente.

Quote
alimente
my take is a bit different: there was NO WINNER - neither Mick, nor Keith.

in fact, neither Micks nor Keiths solo efforts were commercial successes like both of them experienced with the Stones.

I think both realized that they could carry on doing solo for some years to come, but would most probably have to face lesser and lesser commercial success with each successive solo album, once the novelty factor of Mick and Keith going solo would wear off.

I think BOTH realized that their SUPERSTAR STATUS was severely threatened if they would follow their solo routes - thats what Keith meant when he mentioned tellig Mick that the "Stones as a band is bigger than the sum of its parts" - and the simple fact that both, Mick AND Keith did not want to miss the financial rewards and ego feed of being the "centre of a hurricane" connected with Stones superstar status in the years to come.

these hard facts led to their decision to overcome any personal differences and work as the Stones again.

in other words - both lost the solo game, and therefore decided to go for a "win-win" situation.

You are absolutely right...until your conclusion. And that's were you go wrong. Keith's overriding reason for his 'solo' project was to get Mick back in the fold. He never wanted to go solo...never had the need to step outside of the Stones in order to express his musical vision. He was forced to do so by Jagger's quest for an individual musical career. Keith's goal was always simply to compel Mick to understand that their ambitions and musical strengths were best served within the Stones...that he found himself having so much fun with the X-pensive Winos - with the success of "Talk Is Cheap" and his subsequent tour with the Winos - was simply icing on the cake. Keith's victory was complete when he received critical kudos Jagger could not buy, had healthy record sales, and a successful US tour...at this point the game was up and Keith was the victor. Jagger called up and the rest is history. He achieved what he always wanted...to get the Stones back together as a working band. That was his definition of victory - a valid one, at that.

As an aside, Richards was a different stage presence within the Stones after his first tour with the Winos. Perhaps he no longer was happy being 'musical director' (as Doxa has mentioned) of the Rolling Stones. He tasted front man pressure and acclaim with the Winos...and handled both well. When the Stones returned to the stage in 1989 Richards was much more the showman than he'd ever been. He no longer hung back as much, directing traffic and tempo. He was now out front, posing, playing solos, and being guitar God. Whether his music and the band's benefited from this is open to debate - and subject for another thread.

strange -- barnes & noble just told me they got 3 copies in a few days ago -- does anyone have their copy yet?


p

I think this competition is made up by the fans more than by Mick and Keith. Fans discuss for ages who is the boss, the leader, and whatever, and it seems incredibly important to them. I know, that it is seen as a fact by many, that Mick only started a solocareer, because he wanted to be a bigger star alone than with the Stones. I find that really childish. I am quite sure that this was not his motivation.

But if there was or is a competition than it comes more from Keith, in my opinion. He only made solo records because Mick made them and loves to tell everybody to this day, that he won (whatever). It is true, that Stones fans love Keith´s albums more than Mick´s, But Mick did reach fans outside the Stones with the very successful She´s the boss, which sold better than all of Keith´s albums. Primitive cool was no success, like Main offender. Both sold very poor. But Mick continued with the very successful Wandering spirit, and Keith did not, maybe because Main offender was not the success that he expected? Only speculation.
Mick´s tour in Asia and Australia was very successful and he felt secure enough to bring the concept to the Stones.
Among Stones-fans Keith is the winner, but if you take a closer look, he isn´t. In my opinion.

Think elunsi expressed some important ideas.
Also feel that idea of endless competition between Mick and Keith is inaccurate.

Some very good points are shared here towards the ego-war of the 80's issue, and I am not quite sure where I personally stand anymore - I brought the "Mick won it" view a bit polemically because I think the opposite view has been more popular, and I thought perhaps it is good a bit shake it.

Anyway, I still hold it partially. My argument is simply is that the REAL war happened after Keith cleaned up and wanted his share of 'boss duties'. The hectic time was 1981/82 tour. Jagger was sick and tired of Keith's demands, and the rock and roll irresponsible way how the Stones were rolling in Keith's lead, and after THAT tour, he decided "no more!". He wanted to do the things professionally and in control, and first tried to do it by himself. He failed, but then forced the the Stones to follow his method. And, be the reason whatever, Keith okayed. The result and outcome of the 80's is that Jagger got his will through - the thing he was sick and tired in 1982 was not more bothering him in 1989 anymore. In a long run Mick gave the lesson to Keith that the band will lead in Mick Jagger way or there is no band. I don't think was Jagger's plan but it turned out to be this way.

- Doxa



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2009-02-22 21:04 by Doxa.

....drugs....take a toll on the level of intimacy between people...there is no mystery here....the rest is all ego and contract bull s hit which they obviously worked out and are very happy they did since they are grossing outrageous amounts of cash.....