Interesting thread...correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to rememeber reading that Thoroughgood made a death bed confession to someone and admitted it was him who had held Brian under the water. I'm 95% certain that this was in some article but, as has been stated above, it's more than likely the truth will never emerge as there was only one other person who Thoroughgood confessed to and he could say anything as Thoroughgood isn't around to contest it. It's just another brilliant conspiracy theory a la' JFK.

My personal feelings is it's a mixture of two incidents, Brian got into trouble in the water (asthma, drugs, booze who knows) and THoroughgood didn't help and then decided to jump in and try and get him out but it was too late. So, strictly not murder although very close.

Keith's triple pickup black beauty les paul custom with the painted on stuff is in
the British music experience at the o2.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2010-08-30 21:18 by King Bee.

i still think the most likely explanation is that he just drowned ... accidentally.

the maid leona did it.

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Addicted
Same guy who later admitted to drowning him, had ordered truckloads to be driven away from Brian's farm on the night after he was killed.
So, first he killed him, then he robbed him. Just because they didn't agree on some invoices he had sent Brian for carpenter work he'd done there...

and wasn't this carpenter/contracter dying on his deathbed and confessed to someone else? I remember reading that in either Keith's biography or Ronnie's auto bio.

Mick's rock, I'm roll.

The deathbed confession story comes (AFAIK) from Terry Rawlings and since his book mostly seems to be made up by himself I'd say that it should be taken with a huge pinch of salt.

Brian had too much to be happy for at this point to just loose it with drugs and booze again and drown. Somebody killed him, probably by accident, but I'm not so sure that Thorogood did it.

Keylock knew it all. But he died with with the secret. Anna Wohlin is the last one who actually knows anything close to the truth.

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Mathijs
It appears that most instruments associated with Brian were not with him in his house.

Have you got a source for that? I find that statement odd when thinking about Brian's love for sounds and exotic instruments. He most likely recorded stuff in the music room (since everybody who knew him at that time states that) and being who he was he would love to have add dulcimer, sitar and other stuff to that. According to Keylock his Mellotron was at Cotchford and it's said to have been transported to his parents after his death.

The 'deathbed confession' was only made to Tom Keylock, and Thorogood's relatives deny he made it at all (I think possibly deny that Keylock was ever alone at the hospital with Frank T.) It certainly deflected accusing fingers away from Keylock though...
It's worth bearing in mind that Keylock suggested hiring Thorogood in the first place. Also why did the Stones dispense with his services soon after Brian's death?
Wohlin suggests he effectively gave her no choice but to pack up and leave the country straight away and that he was the reason she was too scared to speak up for years.
I wonder if Keylock was acting on someones's orders with this and the supposed burning of Brian's stuff or acting to protect himself?

According to the autopsy report Brian's blood alcohol level was approx 3 1/2 pints of beer.Dr. Greenburgh, his doctor reported that Brian's drug requirements were becoming less and he had shown considerable improvement .A watch, given to him by Alexis Korner, showed up at auction in the last few years. Keylock burned a lot of his clothes, etc. on the night of the death. Keith, reportedly, was very upset about this.
Dr. Cyril Wecht is writing a book to be published next spring, I believe. One of the cases he will be looking at is the death of Brian Jones.

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jlowe
Eh? Tom IS still alive!!

Nope. Died 2009, 40 years to the day that Brian died.

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tonterapi

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Mathijs
It appears that most instruments associated with Brian were not with him in his house.

Have you got a source for that? I find that statement odd when thinking about Brian's love for sounds and exotic instruments. He most likely recorded stuff in the music room (since everybody who knew him at that time states that) and being who he was he would love to have add dulcimer, sitar and other stuff to that. According to Keylock his Mellotron was at Cotchford and it's said to have been transported to his parents after his death.

A simple matter of deduction -most instruments associated with him where either studio instruments (like the marimba etc) or where part of the collective Stones equipment. Most guitars and amps Brian played have turned up in the hands of members of the Stones later on, and hence where not in Brian's house during the burglary.

There's a few instruments that are known to really have belonged to Brian -the Mellotron he bought and was returned to his parents and the Vox Bijou('s) that where (as far as I understand) stolen or given away before '68.

Mathijs

For those who haven't seen, here's what Sam Cutler has to say about it:

[samcutler.tumblr.com]

'I was in the Rolling Stones office when news of Keylock’s removal of Brian’s possessions came through, and can clearly remember the shock on people’s faces'

Thanx, Squiggle.

But after first reading Cutlers book and now these comments about Brian's dead I'm even more sceptical about Cutlers views and motivations.

He's saying some very strange things, some coming from Rawlings book- and very different than Anna Wohlins (Brians last girl friend) memories.
Same goes for his Altamont remarks.

Thanks Squiggle, I hadn't read this but was amazed to find Cutler saying basically the same thing as me.

The only part that I am uneasy with is the stuff about the two friends of Brian's who arrived at the scene and witnessed Brian being held underwater. I am fairly sure this is a reference to Nicholas Fitzgerald who wrote a book about it. I'm not sure why, as he was a friend of Brian, but he seems (or seemed, is he dead now?) to be widely viewed as completely untrustworthy & likely to have made up this sensational account merely to flog a book. The stuff about Klein hiring private investigators was unearthed by a freelance writer two years ago.

Interesting that Keith sacked Keylock by the end of '68. Why on earth would Brian then take him on knowing he had been caught with his hands in the till? I thought Keylock was still employed by the Stones at the time of Brian's death & in several accounts (possibly all stemming from Keylock) he was sent by the Stones office to check what happened at Cotchford... I think this apparently spurious, factor may be what has led some conspiracy theorists to suggest the Stones or some of them were involved in the death because they seemed to be involved in the 'cover up' (burning of Brian's possessions & threatening Wohlin and others etc).

Keith firing and Brian subsequently hiring Keylock is not so odd. Look at the Stones warning the Beatles away from Klein yet they still went. While there was no claim of unethical behavior, Mick fired Jane Rose and Keith subsequently hired her. Those things are common. Sometimes its a power play and other times its just poor judgement. Girlfriends, hangers-on, employees were all shared. Chuch was passed around by bands. Same with Shirley Arnold. It was an incestuous time and, in many ways, a naive one.

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crumbling_mice
Interesting thread...correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to rememeber reading that Thoroughgood made a death bed confession to someone and admitted it was him who had held Brian under the water. I'm 95% certain that this was in some article but, as has been stated above, it's more than likely the truth will never emerge as there was only one other person who Thoroughgood confessed to and he could say anything as Thoroughgood isn't around to contest it. It's just another brilliant conspiracy theory a la' JFK.

My personal feelings is it's a mixture of two incidents, Brian got into trouble in the water (asthma, drugs, booze who knows) and THoroughgood didn't help and then decided to jump in and try and get him out but it was too late. So, strictly not murder although very close.

Look, it's all speculation. One thing for sure is that those around him knew that Brian was a very strong swimmer. This should blow out the idea he accidentally drowned in a small swimming pool. As for Thorogood, well the finger IMHO really points hard in his direction regarding foul play that night, especially considering he and Brian had a serious disagreement about monies owed for services rendered. Bad blood was in the mix, along with envy and jealousy the workers felt towards Brian.

I think Brian's home was likely looted, by whomever was around. Yes, clothes were burned. That is fact. I also think there had to be guitars and other instruments around. Brian was trying to get a band together in the months before his death. So some instruments had to have been stolen. Find the list of those who were there that night and those are the people who were involved with the looting.

"Look at the Stones warning the Beatles away from Klein yet they still went." Well actually, the Stones, Keith in particular recommended Klein to the Beatles!

Didn't Marianne's autobiography presented it as a plan by Mick to get rid of Klein by encouraging John Lennon to sign him? Not that her book is trustworthy but that did amuse me a little.

Anyway, I thought I'd look through the Stones biographies I have at hand to remind myself what they said about the disappearance of Brian's belongings. Laura Jackson's Golden Stone certainly isn't reliable but she has a quote from a gardener, Mick Martin (pg. 227):

'A group of men were burning an enormous amount of stuff. I know because I had a very nice little Bible and they'd flung that on, too. Well, I wasn't having that and went immediately and got it out. But, yes, they were burning Brian's things - his clothes, his shirts and what have you. I don't know on whose say-so, but they cleared no end of stuff out of his house and burned the lot.'

She also has an anonymous quote on pages 226 - 227 from somone who supposedly saw the contents of Brian's room, apart from a couple of instruments, being loaded into vans, about the disappearance of piles of money which Brian kept beside his bed.


Philip Norman's The Stones has Mary Hallett being told that someone was burning Brian's clothes, wonders about the disappearance of furniture, antiques and instruments and quotes Shirley Arnold:

'Brian's parents had everything that they'd been sent from Cotchford spread out in their garage. There were only a few of Brian's clothes. They hadn't got all his guitars, or his Mellotron.'


Tony Sanchez says on page 157 of Up and Down With the Rolling Stones (with John Blake):

... within a few days of Brian's death someone entered his front door with a key and loaded his guitars, his Persian rugs, his antiques and everything else of value into a lorry. The things were taken away and hidden, to be sold at a later date. We all believed we knew the man responsible for the theft, but we had no direct proof.


Stanley Booth's The True Adventures of the Rolling Stones (pg. 352) says:

Charlie was looking away, distracted, as if he weren't seeing the buildings rush past. "Brian had a whole trunk of jewelry," he said. The contents of the trunk, like most of Brian's possessions, had disappeared after his death. "It was like pirate treasure, a whole trunk full of trinkets."


Jagger Unauthorised by Christopher Andersen just says (pg. 209):

Within hours of Jones's death, the house was stripped of thousands of pounds worth of antiques, artwork and other possessions.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2010-09-03 15:36 by Squiggle.

After Brian's dead Keylock was at least still very present at the Hyde Park gig!

So when exactly did they fire him and how - if at all?

In the book Good times Bad times - co written by Rawlings/ Badman - and some Keylock, - he says his last work for the Stones was to fly to NY to face Klein to get some money for Keith.

After that HE says he left them cause he needed a break.
Well . . !?!

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CousinC
After Brian's dead Keylock was at least still very present at the Hyde Park gig!

So when exactly did they fire him and how - if at all?

In the book Good times Bad times - co written by Rawlings/ Badman - and some Keylock, - he says his last work for the Stones was to fly to NY to face Klein to get some money for Keith.

After that HE says he left them cause he needed a break.
Well . . !?!

Didn't Mick let him go after the Hyde Park concert because he was caught trying to take Brian's Jajouka tapes?

Marie, - where is that information from?
And when was "after"? Cause Keylock says they sent him to New York late 69.

So many different versions. You would think any of the Stones could say definitively if Keylock was still working for them up to or after Brian's death. I don't know why Cutler would lie about this though.

Keylock himself told Geoffrey Giuliano ('Paint It Black') twice and in front of witnesses that he was at Cotchford at the time of Brian's death, despite all his stories to the police and journalists that he arrived hours later. On one of these occasions, Terry Rawlings, who was sat next to Giuliano, said softly under his breath, 'Oy'. "It was clearly a sign for Mr Keylock to change the subject which he promptly did." He had interestingly said he had been watching Brian swimming and went to get a fag. When he came back a few minutes later Brian was dead. By the next time he spoke to Giuliano in Dec '93 thishad changed to Frank watching him then going inside for a fag etc.

He also told Giuliano on this occasion that he had been sent back to Redlands by Keith to to collect a guitar on that evening (before giving a ridiculous story about the police pulling him over and telling him Brian was dead and sending him to Cotchford) but of course this doesn't mean it was true that he was still working for the band by then.

But the one witness that was there for shure - Anna Wohlin - doesn't say that Keylock was present. She told another story, but said that he later send her away,etc. All very confusing . .

I'm shure he had to do with all that was going on after the death but I doubt he was present when it happened.

But she has given varying versions and she has indicated that it was Keylock who had threatened her and inhited her from speaking up for so long so perhaps she was just too scared to tell all. Now he's dead of course, you would think she could relax a bit...

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jlowe
Interesting that in another thread Anita (in an interview) aserts that Brian was probably murdered.
She must be the closest to the "inner circle" of the time, to admit as much.
Re the possessions: the family-who would presumably have inherited all his stuff- have remained quiet ( a dignified silence it has to be said).

Could someone please post a link to this?