Hi All,
I hardly ever post anything on here- so: "Hello" to all the fans, collectors & 'kindred spirits' on here :-).
I appreciate that everyone here has their own way of collecting, whether it's mp3's, lossless downloads, or buying silver-pressed boot cds, vinyl etc. There's no 'right' or 'wrong' way to enjoy the Stones underground recordings afterall.
So- that's my 'disclaimer' out of the way! LOL.
The thing is- I've collected factory-pressed boots for a long time & I know quite a few collectors here do the same. In fact- many share the latest factory-pressed releases here, which is VERY admirable (I'm too old & stupid to know how! :-)).
BUT- my point is regarding 'Dog & Cat's releases, especially the more recent ones. Their idea of 'remastering' seems to actually make existing boots sound WORSE. I know some will say "it's a matter of taste", but if you have a boot that's too trebley- you can turn that down. If (as with DAC) they release muddy & muffled 'remasters', there's nothing you can do about it.
What finally spurred me on to making this post is: I was listening to Munichland Melodies' (DAC-088) this afternoon, which DAC claimed came straight from the master-cassette of these sessions. Several years ago, the Japanese 'Exile' label released a 2cd titled 'Play It Rough' & even though many of their masters were criticised for sounding harsh & metallic- this one sounds much better than what DAC have put out (just roll the treble off a little). Both are plagued by excessive noise, but DAC are talking s*it imho.They didn't even attempt to remove the noise BETWEEN the tracks & a 5 year-old could do that!.
ALL of their recent output, eg: 'Hold On Tight', 'Danish Brew', 'Live From England' & others too numerous to mention, are actually DOWNGRADES of material that's either been released by other labels before, in better quality, or has been taken from torrents. In fact- they even make what they've taken from torrents sound worse!. So- that should at least offer some slight reassurance to the kind people sharing their precious recordings.
Obviously, if your preference is for downloads- that's fine :-) (in fact- if I wasn't such an old fart- I'd join you!). But, anyone buying their releases (me included) should definately think long & hard before spending money on this company's releases nowadays. I've definately bought my last one.
Just my 2 cents :-)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2009-07-24 19:19 by MrsHop.

hey that's an interesting thread you've started here!
I suggest you give us specific examples title by title of your "torrents are better than DAC's version of them" so we can bounce off off them...

`"If (as with DAC) they release muddy & muffled 'remasters', there's nothing you can do about it."
In all honesty I haven't bought a boot in nearly a decade, and I feed my habit with torrents. With FLAC format and VLC player you can re-EQ the music ad nauseum, and I always take DAC's EQ as a starting point.
(for ex. I boost the treble of my "Munichland Melodies" far beyond what DAC did, more hiss but also more clarity)

Munichland Melodies is maybe copied from the vinyl with the same title ?!

No it's from tape/cassette. Unfortunately I cannot find the original cassette torrent on Dime; only the DAC torrent on H-City is still alive.

Quote
dcba
hey that's an interesting thread you've started here!
I suggest you give us specific examples title by title of your "torrents are better than DAC's version of them" so we can bounce off off them...

`"If (as with DAC) they release muddy & muffled 'remasters', there's nothing you can do about it."
In all honesty I haven't bought a boot in nearly a decade, and I feed my habit with torrents. With FLAC format and VLC player you can re-EQ the music ad nauseum, and I always take DAC's EQ as a starting point.
(for ex. I boost the treble of my "Munichland Melodies" far beyond what DAC did, more hiss but also more clarity)

Hi there :-). Re: your first point, I can't pretend to know alot about torrents- as I don't know how to use the bit-torrent sites. But, I know that 'Hold On Tight' was torrented, from the much better source that appeared on vinyl. That was released on a Japanese 'no-label' 2cd & It sounded wonderful, but then DAC issued it- with their usual 'SSIYS' remastering software (short for: Stuff Socks In Your Speakers' :-)). I don't know if the 1st Copenhagen '73 show was torrented (?), but again- a 'no-label' released a 2cd of both shows. Again- both recordings were great & clear as a bell- UNTIL DAC released the greatly inferior 'Danish Brew'. As for Manchester '73, I don't know where they got 'JJF' from (which was missing on the original VGP release, aswell as Street Fighting Man). But, the recording is the same source & again, DAC have applied the 'sonic mudd' to what was a great recording. There are SO many examples of DAC's poor mastering, but one recent offering that REALLY highlights the problem, is their version of Glasgow '73 on disc 2 of the new 'Live From England' release. A no-label released that recently & even though it's not a great recording- DAC have rendered it almost unlistenable.

DAC - The company released some dog-awful boots, eg: DAC 090 Live From England 1973, this sounds terribly - like recorded from a 3 year-old on a baby-phone!. They also copied alot of VGP (their own) releases....
rehash rehash rehash rehash rehash rehash rehash

RE the sonic blanket :
it might be that Japanese buyers are allergic to hiss cos it reeks of high-gen/bad tapes (always that purity/perfection Japanese consummers seek in all that they buy?). You can "achieve" this by cutting off the very high freqs, prior to sending the tape to the pressing plant.
It's a bit dumb when you realize that all Master cassette recordings and some reel ones are hissy, but hey...

Expert Erik Snow also mentions the "no-name" label as the best as far preserving the integrity of the source tapes is concerned.

"I don't know how to use the bit-torrent sites"
I didn't either till recently but I've found out pretty quickly (and I'm not that bright) ;-)
Read a FAQ, DL Utorrent, join Hungercity.org and off you go!
You might use torrent sites to test a boot before buying it



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2009-07-24 22:37 by dcba.

Thanks for the compliment, dcba - but the only real experts here are dph and TornAndFrayed. I'm just a listener....can easily get fooled

MrsHop makes some interesting observations - and I agree to his opinions
However; DAC also makes some great work......for every 5th title, or so
Alive In Seattle, Don't You Wanna Live On Route 66 and All Inside Our Crazy Dreams are examples of their "good work"
But this "carpet" that MrsHop speaks of.....I know what he means

Just compare the Sept 8th 1973 1st show on DAC with the original release (Devil's Breath)...or the speed-corrected torrent...for an "easy discovery" on how the DAC-EQ-staff should be fired

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Erik_Snow
MrsHop makes some interesting observations - and I agree to his opinions
However; DAC also makes some great work......for every 5th title, or so
Alive In Seattle, Don't You Wanna Live On Route 66 and All Inside Our Crazy Dreams are examples of their "good work"
But this "carpet" that MrsHop speaks of.....I know what he means

Just compare the Sept 8th 1973 1st show on DAC with the original release (Devil's Breath)...or the speed-corrected torrent...for an "easy discovery" on how the DAC-EQ-staff should be fired

Hi Erik. Yes- I agree with you, DAC have released some GREAT titles too amongst the many surplus, or downgraded recordings- 'Germany 1970'(DAC-070) for example was a surprise treat imo :-). I don't buy them ALL, as I'd need to be a very rich man (which I'm not) & the ones that I do buy, but am not happy with- I move on, to other collectors. The thing is: because of the 'kudos' that surrounds VGP/DAC (as they're basically the same company), they always seem to be more desirable/collectible than many other labels' releases, regardless of sound-quality & that's a great shame imo.
I remember several years ago that it was rumoured that rep's from the Jap' boot companies, were making trips to the US, in order to copy original tapes. At the time, I think that rumour was relating to the newly resurrected 'Idol Mind' label- who seemed to stumble pretty soon afterwards & give-up on silver pressings. But, there's no doubt that there was a slow trickle of 1st/2nd generation tapes used for some releases, over the following year or 2.
But, as somebody else rightly pointed out- by reissuing material that VGP already released, but in worse quality- DAC are actually downgrading their own catalogue, which is just plain weird.

Actually- I just remembered: on the 'plus-side', DAC's questionable mastering technique has actually benefitted a couple of recordings imo:
I remember somebody sending me a copy of the new source of the June 22nd '75 MSG show, taken from the Tarantula release 'Sympathy For The God'. It was SO trebley, it was almost painful to listen to!. So, the 'mufflers' that DAC applied to their version made it sound much better imo.
I must admit that I'm still curious about how the Roundhouse '71 recording sounds now, on disc 2 of DAC's new 'Get Your Leeds Lungs Out'- as that recording sounds quite thin & shrill on VGP's 'The Lost Marquee Tapes'. But- there's no way I'm going to waste good money on yet another version of Leeds '71!.

"y reissuing material that VGP already released, but in worse quality- DAC are actually downgrading their own catalogue, which is just plain weird."
Well Zep labels ahve done for years, with "ultimate" "remastered" or "definitive" versions which are often way worse than the 1st regular edition. And obviously it work$$$ pretty well for those labels...


"Don't You Wanna Live On Route 66"?
I cannot find this one on DAC titles lists...

Quote
dcba
"y reissuing material that VGP already released, but in worse quality- DAC are actually downgrading their own catalogue, which is just plain weird."
Well Zep labels ahve done for years, with "ultimate" "remastered" or "definitive" versions which are often way worse than the 1st regular edition. And obviously it work$$$ pretty well for those labels...


"Don't You Wanna Live On Route 66"?
I cannot find this one on DAC titles lists...

Yes indeedy- I agree.
I think there's a bit of a typo there- ie: 'Don't You Wanna Live With Me' (DAC-071), but I can't think of a DAC release with 'Route 66' in the title either.

OT but I've discovered that VGP-283 (the Nicaraguan earthquake benefit) also suffers from
SSIYS...
Was it done in order to hide the "taken from vinyl" nature of this CD or was just plain negligence?



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2009-07-25 18:14 by dcba.

Quote
MrsHop
Several years ago, the Japanese 'Exile' label released a 2cd titled 'Play It Rough' & even though many of their masters were criticised for sounding harsh & metallic- this one sounds much better than what DAC have put out (just roll the treble off a little). Both are plagued by excessive noise, but DAC are talking s*it imho.They didn't even attempt to remove the noise BETWEEN the tracks & a 5 year-old could do that!.

Most part of the EXILE release were copied from the old IMP CD which ran a bit fast and had worse sound quality than the EXR release for example.
The only interest of the EXILE set is to be the most complete compilation of the B'n B sessions.
The DAC sounds hissy but has a deeper sound and runs at a better speed than the EXILE/IMP imho.

Could someone upload or torrent the EXILE release please?

What's funny is I (like about 800 people) got the Seattle show (from Master tape no less) off torrent sites and guess what? This transfered-and-torrented "as is" recording sounds ilke it has SSIYS!

I have to reEQ it like mad to bring it to life... Once EQed it looks like a slightly flawed Millard recording, that is vg/exc.
Maybe DAC decided to send the tapes they get straight to the plant? Could these vintage cassettes lose most of their high freqs with time?
(amazing version of MR on this Seattle tape btw)



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2009-08-01 00:23 by dcba.