What are y'alls thoughts on this?

[mymoratorium.wordpress.com]

He missed the ball...he could have refered to prostitution as Scalping.

Much as we like to question the morals of scalpers when they rip us off by buying all the good seats and then screwing us for a king's ransom, the same guys DO come in handy when we are desperate for a ticket.

I've bought from scalpers on very rare occasions, and I have to say, regretfully, that it has always been worth it.

A double-edged sword.

Scalpers are a dying breed. In the US, major corporations have taken over the two biggest brokers. Ebay owns StubHub, and get this, Ticketmaster owns TicketsNow.

There are many other avenues for people to get good seats these days before the general public. I know that many scalpers in the Houston area use the same avenues like season tickets, club sales, etc to get their tickets. They spend alot of money and do not always make a big profit, it's a gamble.

But when tickets prices are already over $100 I can't imagine it being worth it to start a scalping business. What can the mark-up possibly be? Is it really worth it?

Scalping is legal in Texas, by the way. There are many ticket agencies all over town.

My friends and I could never get it togther early enough on a concert and would always have to wait till the last minute to get seats. There has been many a sold out shows that i was able to attend because of the local scaplers. And since it was the day of the show the tickets often came at a discount, maybe just a few bucks above face value.

I will never forget a young couple buying a pair of Depeche Mode tickets for 650.00 with a face value of $33 back in 1988. Who the hell is this Depeche Mode?

Well tickemaster approve, just check out their "sell again" option, or whatever they call it. if thats not scalping, what is ??

I just don't think the Government should be involved. Let the free market reign.

[mymoratorium.wordpress.com]

just wait until Paulywaul gets his typing fingers on to this thread, fireworks, pyrotechnic overload? Nahhhhhhh far too f*ckin' namby pamby. Cataclysmic eruptions of Vesuvian proportions more like.

SD

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SonicDreamer
just wait until Paulywaul gets his typing fingers on to this thread, fireworks, pyrotechnic overload? Nahhhhhhh far too f*ckin' namby pamby. Cataclysmic eruptions of Vesuvian proportions more like.

SD

Light the blue touch paper and stand aside!

Scalping is scalping. Doesnt matter if its an agency or just some guy trying to make a few bucks. The dang ticket agencies are EVIL--much worse than a guy buying a few extra tickets. Thats why WE cant get a decent seat. Agencies are horrible, and in cahoots with the sellers of the tickets. I never could figure out how they get away with it. When it says on the ticket that it cant be sold for more than face value.

DIE SCALPER SCUM!

JR

Who's worse, the people who buy tickets without any intention to use them and to only make profit off of fans, or the people who buy houses with no intent to ever live in them, with the sole intention of turning around in a few months and make big profits off someone who actually wants to live in the house?

They are really both the same thing, but many people never think of the second one being wrong and think the first is so terrible because they make an emotional connection to being able to see their favorite music acts and feel wronged when others interfere with that.

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Barn Owl
Much as we like to question the morals of scalpers when they rip us off by buying all the good seats and then screwing us for a king's ransom, the same guys DO come in handy when we are desperate for a ticket.

I've bought from scalpers on very rare occasions, and I have to say, regretfully, that it has always been worth it.

A double-edged sword.

Ths scalpers arent the problem. Its the system that allows and even encourages their very existence that is.

I've more an issue with the bands, ticket agencies and promoters for siphoning off the best seats to scalpers/brokers to begin with (and no doubt getting a nice earner out of it) and/or doing little or nothing to ensure that the same seats go to fans for the price theyre supposed to have been sold at.

If everyone can buy/use the software the brokers/scalpers use to buy up blocks of tickets when they go on sale fine, let free market reign. But it's very unfair when the public logs onto TM 30 seconds after an event goes on sale and all tickets are gone because they use a faster/better software product.

Scalpers are generally only going to care about or make their money on the best seats. If you use a method to take those out of the ticket-selling system by not having them onsale along with the rest of the tickets, then you reduce the problem.

It CAN be done for the most part by, for example, selling tickets for the first 15-20 rows of an arena/stadium show in the same way that its done for all tickets to a theatre show (using Stones shows as an example) - ie using will-call,a 2-ticket limit, wristbands, photo ID etc. For the upcoming Tom Waits shows, they not only use this system but you have to give the name of the person who's taking your second ticket within a few days of your purchase.

If there's a will, it can be done. Unfortunately, as was the case with an act who shall remain nameless, when you advertise ticket prices for shows in your home city at £70-150 but then dont make any of the tickets available (even in fan club presales) for the first ten rows when they first go on sale, but siphon them off to brokers and extortionately priced travel companies who then sell them on at double or triple the price (or more), it tends to give the impression that you couldnt care less and are, in fact, financially benefitting from it.

That's also scalping as far as I'm concerned.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2008-07-15 18:04 by Gazza.

How long have all of us been going to concerts? There were scalpers back then, and our great great grandchildren will deal with the same shit.

There will always be people working from the inside, who will be happy to siphon off the good seats for a little extra scratch.

I think the only way to beat the system, in theory, is...don't buy from scalpers or ticket agencies. Again, that was in theory, which would never work, because there is always someone willing to pay the price, that most won't.

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Gazza
Scalpers are generally only going to care about or make their money on the best seats. If you use a method to take those out of the ticket-selling system by not having them onsale along with the rest of the tickets, then you reduce the problem.

It CAN be done for the most part by, for example, selling tickets for the first 15-20 rows of an arena/stadium show in the same way that its done for all tickets to a theatre show (using Stones shows as an example) - ie using will-call,a 2-ticket limit, wristbands, photo ID etc. For the upcoming Tom Waits shows, they not only use this system but you have to give the name of the person who's taking your second ticket within a few days of your purchase.

If there's a will, it can be done. Unfortunately, as was the case with an act who shall remain nameless, when you advertise ticket prices for shows in your home city at £70-150 but then dont make any of the tickets available (even in fan club presales) for the first ten rows when they first go on sale, but siphon them off to brokers and extortionately priced travel companies who then sell them on at double or triple the price (or more), it tends to give the impression that you couldnt care less and are, in fact, financially benefitting from it.

That's also scalping as far as I'm concerned.

I agree, it IS scalping. There is no other word for it.

The same is happening with the Stevie Wonder tickets for his forthcoming UK shows where the first ten rows cost £325 each (plus booking fee) for the privelege of having a meal thrown in, while the Hot Seats for rows 11-15, are a mere snip at just £199 each (plus booking fee).

If you don't want a meal, a programme, a special gift or a souvenir laminate, there's row 16 at £75, if the normal touts haven't got to them first.

Scalpers i.e. ticket brokers handle 30% of all tickets sold in USA according to Pollstar. What happens is the brokers make deals directly with the source of ticket sales like Ticketmaster. Then they pay off these guys to get large blocks of premier seats, that never get offered to the public. In theory ticket broking is about free market, in reality it is about corruption.

People who live in California do know how the "free market" works when they think back and remember how Enron were able to shut down power plants and get insane high power prices as they got control of all energy supplies. Now the Enron bosses are in jail but nobody is paying back the California residents their over-priced power bills.

Selling your own or a few spare tickets at face value give or less a small margin is fair trading. Buying up blocks of tickets to do big business on people who don't know how this works is unethical and is luckily getting illegal in more and more markets.

Bjornulf

Slightly OT but on the subject of concert tickets I remember seeing a booklet advertised on ebay that reputedly advised on the best way to get tickets near the front of the stage.

Does anyone know how this works? For the Stone shows at the 02 Arena I generally had lousy £165 seats but booked them online minutes after they went on sale. For the last night I got the middle of row 8 which is the nearest I have ever been to the Stones. But it's a lottery.

Is there a system to getting good tickets? I've heard stories that the lousy tickets get sold first and the best are saved for later in case the show doesn't sell out and they can advertise them as 'best seats'.

A few days before the first London O2 show, ticketmaster were selling scores of £165 tickets in the first six rows.

I'm sure every person on this board would like to have a front row-center seat, at a nominal price, for every single concert they want to see. I'm sure that every band would like to fill every seat in a large stadium at an extraordinary price per ticket. Neither of these is going to happen. The solution to these conflicting "wants" is the setting of a price for concert seats where both the buyer and the seller maximize what they want/need. Ticket brokers greatly enhance the efficiency and effectiveness of this process.

Why is it any more fair that somebody with a fast computer, or the ability to wait in line all night, or with some kind of personal connection should get better seats than me? Why should the Stones (or anyone else) get 50 euros for a seat for which somebody would gladly pay 80 euros? The larger and more liquid/transparent the market is, the better the "true-value" of the seat is determined. I'm with sladog on this one.

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Barn Owl
A few days before the first London O2 show, ticketmaster were selling scores of £165 tickets in the first six rows.

Yes..they were almost certainly the surplus tickets that the likes of Fan Asylum couldnt get rid of and which went back into the system again. Similarly with the unsold 'hot seat' tickets which were sold at £100 over face value.

I did quantify in my above post that they werent available when the shows "first went on sale".



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2008-07-15 22:02 by Gazza.

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KSIE
I'm sure every person on this board would like to have a front row-center seat, at a nominal price, for every single concert they want to see. I'm sure that every band would like to fill every seat in a large stadium at an extraordinary price per ticket. Neither of these is going to happen. The solution to these conflicting "wants" is the setting of a price for concert seats where both the buyer and the seller maximize what they want/need. Ticket brokers greatly enhance the efficiency and effectiveness of this process.

Why is it any more fair that somebody with a fast computer, or the ability to wait in line all night, or with some kind of personal connection should get better seats than me? Why should the Stones (or anyone else) get 50 euros for a seat for which somebody would gladly pay 80 euros? The larger and more liquid/transparent the market is, the better the "true-value" of the seat is determined. I'm with sladog on this one.

Fine, then. But if bands like the Stones are prepared to hold tickets back and sell them for, say, £1,000- £2,000, then announce that publicly and let them and Cohl deal with the flak and discontent that will ensue. At least they should be honest and transparent about it.

What they shouldnt do is insult people's intelligence by saying the maximum price for category 1 tickets is £150/$450 - when there is actually a 'hidden' market and the REAL category 1 tickets are ONLY going to go to people who are willing to pay double that.

Promising fans priority ticket allocation in presales, getting them to pay for the privilege and then just offering them shit when the best tickets are never going to be made available is a pretty reprehensible practice

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Gazza

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Barn Owl
A few days before the first London O2 show, ticketmaster were selling scores of £165 tickets in the first six rows.

Yes..they were almost certainly the surplus tickets that the likes of Fan Asylum couldnt get rid of and which went back into the system again. Similarly with the unsold 'hot seat' tickets which were sold at £100 over face value.

I did quantify in my above post that they werent available when the shows "first went on sale".

Absolutely.

In fact my gripe (which I should have alluded to) was that these tickets were indeed, originally kept back, even from RS Fan Club members, so that the well-heeled could have first pick, leaving the genuine fans to frantically scrape around for anything that was left.

How frustrating it was to see such good seats eventually come up for sale having, myself, already shelled out £700 for four inferior ones.

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bv
Scalpers i.e. ticket brokers handle 30% of all tickets sold in USA according to Pollstar. What happens is the brokers make deals directly with the source of ticket sales like Ticketmaster. Then they pay off these guys to get large blocks of premier seats, that never get offered to the public. In theory ticket broking is about free market, in reality it is about corruption.

That is pure speculation. Knowing people involved with the ticket trade, I have never heard of Ticketmaster selling blocks of tickets to secondary brokers.

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bv
is luckily getting illegal in more and more markets.

Not true. Over the past 5 years in the US most anti-scalping laws have been squashed.

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Gazza

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KSIE
I'm sure every person on this board would like to have a front row-center seat, at a nominal price, for every single concert they want to see. I'm sure that every band would like to fill every seat in a large stadium at an extraordinary price per ticket. Neither of these is going to happen. The solution to these conflicting "wants" is the setting of a price for concert seats where both the buyer and the seller maximize what they want/need. Ticket brokers greatly enhance the efficiency and effectiveness of this process.

Why is it any more fair that somebody with a fast computer, or the ability to wait in line all night, or with some kind of personal connection should get better seats than me? Why should the Stones (or anyone else) get 50 euros for a seat for which somebody would gladly pay 80 euros? The larger and more liquid/transparent the market is, the better the "true-value" of the seat is determined. I'm with sladog on this one.

Fine, then. But if bands like the Stones are prepared to hold tickets back and sell them for, say, £1,000- £2,000, then announce that publicly and let them and Cohl deal with the flak and discontent that will ensue. At least they should be honest and transparent about it.

What they shouldnt do is insult people's intelligence by saying the maximum price for category 1 tickets is £150/$450 - when there is actually a 'hidden' market and the REAL category 1 tickets are ONLY going to go to people who are willing to pay double that.

Promising fans priority ticket allocation in presales, getting them to pay for the privilege and then just offering them shit when the best tickets are never going to be made available is a pretty reprehensible practice

Agree with all that. I think the Stones may have reduced their integrity to a new low with the whole Fan Club concept. Their use of brokers is not an example of the market transparency of which I was speaking.

Norway got an anti-scalping law a year or so ago, and most of the scalper agencies have been trying to bend the law for a year low, withough too much success, as there is a very high penalty involved. The Pollstar numbers are official, and I do know many people in the States who always buy tickets from their brokers. Just write "concert tickets" into Google.com and you will se some of them. They contact me every day for advertising on IORR so it must be important for them, as they offer big money.

Bjornulf

If ticketmaster was concerned about scalping they would have a rule that people cannot re-sell extra tickets or tickets ment just to re-sell for a determined period of time from the on-sale date. This would mean that someone who just bought 8 tickets can't turn around and puts them up for resale right after they bought them. There could be a two weeks before show posting policy or something that would discourage scalpers.

Bottom line is that ticketmaster's job is to sell as many tickets as they can. Scalping does not bother them because they sold the ticket and collected the money, their job is done.

just as an aside - i'm anti scalper, but much as i'd like to have a go at Ticketmaster, the blame for a lack of anti-scalper measures can be laid fairly and squarely at the door of the band themselves. It's that simple. Period.

have a read at what Gazza said up there about Tom Waits. The cost of the ticket surely contains a 'premium' to pay for the extra staff and overhead required to administer a system whereby the punter who buys the ticket can only go to the gig. And you know what happenend? The gigs (in ireland anyway) have sold out. The punters are happy to pay the entry fee and the admin overhead to ensure that scalpers haven't made money on the gig. I think it's the same for the rest of europe, in fact i'm fairly sure it is.

Amusingly, Tom has decided that a few prime tickets will go up for auction and he's got 'em up here... [www.ticketmaster.ie]

Die Scalper SCUM!

end of discussion.

JR

It's amazing how all these ticket agencies such as Ticketmaster jumped up in the 80s. I remember as a kid in the 70s having to go direct to the venue to buy tickets. If people really wanted tickets for whatever show they were prepared to queue up from early on.
Suddenly lots of tickets agencies appeared and would charge outrageous administration fees. The theatres should never have relinquished control of selling the tickets. And there have definitely been dark rumours of certain theatres in London doing block ticket deals with scalpers.