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I agree about the album generally, but the track itself, at least lyrically, is much more critical than the anthem style you mention (that would come later with "Start Me Up," "You Got Me Rockin'," etc.). I could see the lyrics being overlooked, but it has a great T-Rexy groove--or was that also a questionable aspect?
Gaz:
I don't follow. Are you with me or has the Cohl era worn you down?
....and usually act out of desperation...for ratings or adulation.
They may have made some strange decisions, but I'm not sure the
Stones have ever been DESPERATE....except maybe when they first started
and were desperate to make a living doing something they love...playing music.
IORR............but I like it!
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2008-07-10 23:00 by sweet neo con.
Finally made my way all the way through this thread. Interesting observations. I love Rev's post on Page 3 and probably fall into his line of thinking.
Gaz - I'm surprised no one specifically responded to this post. How is it that, in your view, they've never "jumped the shark" musically but artistically they have. I mean - they're artists who make music. How do you separate that? Not saying you're wrong or right, just curious to see your expanded viewpoint on this.
Isn't that where the expression came from?
"It's just some friends of mine and they're busting down the door"
yes.
IORR............but I like it!
Talk about your favorite band.
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Re: When did The Rolling Stones Jump the Shark?
Posted by:
cc
()
Date: July 8, 2008 23:17
Quote
Hound Dog
I think around 1973 into 1974 with the corny videos for some of the Goat's Head Soup songs and then IORR, they kind of looked foolish and IORR just seemed like your typical rock theme song (like Old Time of Rock n Roll, We will Rock you, ect..) The album itself was much weaker than anything else they released in the 70s.
I agree about the album generally, but the track itself, at least lyrically, is much more critical than the anthem style you mention (that would come later with "Start Me Up," "You Got Me Rockin'," etc.). I could see the lyrics being overlooked, but it has a great T-Rexy groove--or was that also a questionable aspect?
Re: When did The Rolling Stones Jump the Shark?
Posted by:
Rev. Robert W.
()
Date: July 9, 2008 01:21
Look, I can't stand the prices, the merchandise, and the sponsorships. I'm frustrated as hell with the setlists and I would prefer a more stripped-down sound.
But here's the thing: When I listen to "Shattered" and "She Was Hot" from the Shine A Light soundtrack, I can hear echoes of Elmore James, Jerry Lee Lewis, Little Richard, and, of course, the Brown-Eyed Handsome Man hisself. The Stones can get up and not only kick ass with their own stuff, but actually embody the whole blues-rock tradition. They can bring all their forebearers to thrilling life. It's the absolute heart of rock'n'roll and the Stones own it.
And when Jagger starts blowin' away next to Buddy Guy...well, who the hell else do you want to listen to? Coldplay?
They have many, many faults, but the shark ain't been jumped yet. And by the way--I hate that pop-culture-geek expression...
But here's the thing: When I listen to "Shattered" and "She Was Hot" from the Shine A Light soundtrack, I can hear echoes of Elmore James, Jerry Lee Lewis, Little Richard, and, of course, the Brown-Eyed Handsome Man hisself. The Stones can get up and not only kick ass with their own stuff, but actually embody the whole blues-rock tradition. They can bring all their forebearers to thrilling life. It's the absolute heart of rock'n'roll and the Stones own it.
And when Jagger starts blowin' away next to Buddy Guy...well, who the hell else do you want to listen to? Coldplay?
They have many, many faults, but the shark ain't been jumped yet. And by the way--I hate that pop-culture-geek expression...
Re: When did The Rolling Stones Jump the Shark?
Posted by:
Gazza
()
Date: July 9, 2008 03:00
..Postin'.......
Re: When did The Rolling Stones Jump the Shark?
Posted by:
Rev. Robert W.
()
Date: July 9, 2008 03:16
Quote
Gazza
..Postin'.......
Gaz:
I don't follow. Are you with me or has the Cohl era worn you down?
Re: When did The Rolling Stones Jump the Shark?
Posted by:
Gazza
()
Date: July 9, 2008 03:18
No..I'm saying its a great post.
Re: When did The Rolling Stones Jump the Shark?
Posted by:
sweetcharmedlife
()
Date: July 9, 2008 03:44
When they played the last 3 shows of the ABB tour in London and couldn't be bothered to change the setlist in the slightest.
Re: When did The Rolling Stones Jump the Shark?
Posted by:
Doctor Dear!
()
Date: July 9, 2008 05:04
SNL 1978
you know what i'm talking about
you know what i'm talking about
Re: When did The Rolling Stones Jump the Shark?
Posted by:
Doxa
()
Date: July 9, 2008 12:21
I have lost the sense of 'jump the shark' by now, since there seems to be so many senses... but if it is taken to be that the guys intentionally make some kind of risky move: try to something they are afraid of how the audience might response, I think they probably feel that way every time they announce a new tour. Will it flop or not? Will the people be finally tired or not?
I guess the most frightening was the 1969 tour when the whole concept of rock music had changed since they last toured (especially in America). In those hectic times of 60's nothing was cemented yet - the Stones had a lot to prove to stay current and there was a big chance to be laughed out of court, as a childish British Invasion band of yesteryear.
Their next American tour, not because of their popularity - they were probably biggest ever, and the "greatest rock and roll band in the world" was a familiar and justified expression - but had other reasons to be scared (Altamont); and Jagger openly confessed of being afraid. Perhaps that was the time they literally were afraid of being jumped the shark.
I guess since that The Stones have always had been at least to an extent nervous that will they be liked as much as before when a new tour is announced. Plus taken the fact that they had for many years this horrible formula that a new tour always needs to be more bigger than the previous one, plus the tickets kept on risen... Perhaps the most scary one was the 'come back' tour of 1989 (of which the STEEL WHEELS album was a part). They have had quite a lousy decade behind, Jagger's star was probably ten percent from what it was since they last toured - and their rivals were a generation younger. To an extent they had a quite similar situation than in 1969. (Watts talks about this in 25x5 document).
- Doxa
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2008-07-09 12:32 by Doxa.
I guess the most frightening was the 1969 tour when the whole concept of rock music had changed since they last toured (especially in America). In those hectic times of 60's nothing was cemented yet - the Stones had a lot to prove to stay current and there was a big chance to be laughed out of court, as a childish British Invasion band of yesteryear.
Their next American tour, not because of their popularity - they were probably biggest ever, and the "greatest rock and roll band in the world" was a familiar and justified expression - but had other reasons to be scared (Altamont); and Jagger openly confessed of being afraid. Perhaps that was the time they literally were afraid of being jumped the shark.
I guess since that The Stones have always had been at least to an extent nervous that will they be liked as much as before when a new tour is announced. Plus taken the fact that they had for many years this horrible formula that a new tour always needs to be more bigger than the previous one, plus the tickets kept on risen... Perhaps the most scary one was the 'come back' tour of 1989 (of which the STEEL WHEELS album was a part). They have had quite a lousy decade behind, Jagger's star was probably ten percent from what it was since they last toured - and their rivals were a generation younger. To an extent they had a quite similar situation than in 1969. (Watts talks about this in 25x5 document).
- Doxa
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2008-07-09 12:32 by Doxa.
Re: When did The Rolling Stones Jump the Shark?
Posted by:
mofur
()
Date: July 9, 2008 21:14
Amen to Rev. Robert W. - one of the best posts in a long long while 
Re: When did The Rolling Stones Jump the Shark?
Posted by:
skipstone
()
Date: July 9, 2008 21:20
Ronnie played on IORR(BILI) but I get that he wasn't a Stone yet. Did Mick Taylor? I know on Keno it says he did but it doesn't sound like it.
Re: When did The Rolling Stones Jump the Shark?
Posted by:
Gazza
()
Date: July 9, 2008 21:26
no - he doesnt. The only two bandmembers at that time who play on it are Mick and Keith.
Ronnie, Stu, Willie Weeks (bass) and Kenney Jones (drums) are the other musicians.
Ronnie, Stu, Willie Weeks (bass) and Kenney Jones (drums) are the other musicians.
Re: When did The Rolling Stones Jump the Shark?
Posted by:
skipstone
()
Date: July 9, 2008 21:35
Which means...Ronnie played on the track.
Re: The Rolling Stones
Posted by:
with sssoul
()
Date: July 9, 2008 21:42
>> Which means...Ronnie played on the track. <<
yes. Keith told him after they'd redone & mixed it "i took the precaustion of erasing your guitars"
but Ronnie's proudly pointed out that his 12-string in fact *didn't* get erased.
but at the time Mick and Keith were the only Stones on the track.
yes. Keith told him after they'd redone & mixed it "i took the precaustion of erasing your guitars"
but Ronnie's proudly pointed out that his 12-string in fact *didn't* get erased.
but at the time Mick and Keith were the only Stones on the track.
Re: When did The Rolling Stones Jump the Shark?
Posted by:
Turning To Gold
()
Date: July 9, 2008 23:33
Ta me, it's "Undercover Of The Night" single and album...over-inflated self important lyrics, silly doot-doot-doot-doot-doot-doot chorus hook, tries to be danceable but isn't ...also not a very good video...album has too much filler, too many B-list songs...the cover looks like the artist spent all of 5 minutes designing it...same with "Too Much Blood" which tries to be shocking but ultimately comes off as "hey, everybody, look at us be shocking, we are trying to be shocking here, hey everybody, we are soooo controversial -- are we shocking you yet?" It just doesn't work. The whole thing with that album that's different from earlier "shocking" or "controversial" Stones stuff is that on Undercover it seems like Jagger is TRYING SO HARD to be shocking or offensive, and it just doesn't come off. That's a major shark-jumping moment for me.
However, having said that, on the 12" version of that song, there is this ONE LICK that Keith plays, kinda when the guitar first comes in, this lick is not on the album version, it's great, and for that one moment they were definitely un-jumped.
However, having said that, on the 12" version of that song, there is this ONE LICK that Keith plays, kinda when the guitar first comes in, this lick is not on the album version, it's great, and for that one moment they were definitely un-jumped.
Re: When did The Rolling Stones Jump the Shark?
Posted by:
skipstone
()
Date: July 10, 2008 03:58
Their Satanic Majesties. They tried to jump the Beatles and failed fantastically. Just a few good tunes - the rest of it is an atrocity.
Re: When did The Rolling Stones Jump the Shark?
Posted by:
Elmo Lewis
()
Date: July 10, 2008 13:57
Jumping the shark is a colloquialism used by U.S. TV critics and fans to denote the point in a TV or movie series at which the characters or plot veer into a ridiculous, out-of-the-ordinary storyline. Shows that have "jumped the shark" are typically deemed to have passed their peak, since they have undergone too many changes to retain their original appeal, and after this point critical fans often sense a noticeable decline in the show's quality.
Re: When did The Rolling Stones Jump the Shark?
Posted by:
Gazza
()
Date: July 10, 2008 14:23
Thanks, Elmo - I think some have missed the point.
The Stones making a bad move is one thing, but its only "jumping the shark" when its caused irreperable damage.
Satanic Majesties, for example, may well be argued to have been a bad career move, but its not like they or their reputation never recovered from it.
The Stones making a bad move is one thing, but its only "jumping the shark" when its caused irreperable damage.
Satanic Majesties, for example, may well be argued to have been a bad career move, but its not like they or their reputation never recovered from it.
Re: When did The Rolling Stones Jump the Shark?
Posted by:
Barn Owl
()
Date: July 10, 2008 15:48
If a shark comes for me, I usually jump out of the way of it.
Re: When did The Rolling Stones Jump the Shark?
Posted by:
sweet neo con
()
Date: July 10, 2008 22:52
Quote
Elmo Lewis
Jumping the shark is a colloquialism used by U.S. TV critics and fans to denote the point in a TV or movie series at which the characters or plot veer into a ridiculous, out-of-the-ordinary storyline. Shows that have "jumped the shark" are typically deemed to have passed their peak, since they have undergone too many changes to retain their original appeal, and after this point critical fans often sense a noticeable decline in the show's quality.
....and usually act out of desperation...for ratings or adulation.
They may have made some strange decisions, but I'm not sure the
Stones have ever been DESPERATE....except maybe when they first started
and were desperate to make a living doing something they love...playing music.
IORR............but I like it!
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2008-07-10 23:00 by sweet neo con.
Re: When did The Rolling Stones Jump the Shark?
Posted by:
No Expectations
()
Date: July 11, 2008 00:03
If the Stones had actually "jumped the shark" none of us would still be here waiting for the next tour or album. They have aged...they have changed...as we all have but "jumped the shark"...No Way!!
Re: When did The Rolling Stones Jump the Shark?
Posted by:
skipstone
()
Date: July 11, 2008 00:21
Fonzie jumped the shark in some show of Happy Days. I can't remember if that was pointed out.
That was totally absurd...but cool for a kid, as I recall. Fonzie jumped a shark? With his JACKET ON! How cool is THAT?
That was totally absurd...but cool for a kid, as I recall. Fonzie jumped a shark? With his JACKET ON! How cool is THAT?
Re: When did The Rolling Stones Jump the Shark?
Posted by:
dj
()
Date: July 11, 2008 01:03
Quote
GazzaQuote
JumpingKentFlash
Thanks! If it means "passing your peak", they haven't done it yet IMO.
It doesnt just mean "passing your peak" (you seriously believe the Stones havent reached their peak yet?). It means that theyve passed it to the point where its become ridiculous...or "fundamentally and permanently strayed from its original premise" to use another quote on that page.
Theyve never really jumped the shark musically for me (only a temporary blip in 1967).
Artistically - 1998/99 onwards when the thirst for money overtook everything else and dictated pretty much everything. Its accelerated ever since, unfortunately.
Finally made my way all the way through this thread. Interesting observations. I love Rev's post on Page 3 and probably fall into his line of thinking.
Gaz - I'm surprised no one specifically responded to this post. How is it that, in your view, they've never "jumped the shark" musically but artistically they have. I mean - they're artists who make music. How do you separate that? Not saying you're wrong or right, just curious to see your expanded viewpoint on this.
Re: When did The Rolling Stones Jump the Shark?
Posted by:
Gazza
()
Date: July 11, 2008 01:22
I still have an unadulterated love for their music - when they DO bother to create any. While theyre not what they were 30 or 40 years ago (who could be? Its a hell of a shadow to live under) they're still a better band than almost everything thats out there - and on their day, one of the best live acts around. They havent lost it musically to the degree where theyre anything close to being a joke.
Its solely their business & artistic ethics I have the issue with. Up to the time when they started charging silly money for a night's entertainment (1998-99 onwards) they could do no wrong as far as I was concerned. Given the opportunity of going the easy route for maximum financial gain, they'll pursue that option pretty much every time. Pretty much every move they make post 1998 has been PRIMARILY driven by the hunger to accumulate as much revenue as they can. Even their choice of setlists are driven by a revisionist attitude towards their art and the compulsion to tailor it to the corporate customer. I believe that demeans them, and is slowly eroding its way into the way that they'll be remembered.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2008-07-11 01:24 by Gazza.
Its solely their business & artistic ethics I have the issue with. Up to the time when they started charging silly money for a night's entertainment (1998-99 onwards) they could do no wrong as far as I was concerned. Given the opportunity of going the easy route for maximum financial gain, they'll pursue that option pretty much every time. Pretty much every move they make post 1998 has been PRIMARILY driven by the hunger to accumulate as much revenue as they can. Even their choice of setlists are driven by a revisionist attitude towards their art and the compulsion to tailor it to the corporate customer. I believe that demeans them, and is slowly eroding its way into the way that they'll be remembered.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2008-07-11 01:24 by Gazza.
Re: When did The Rolling Stones Jump the Shark?
Posted by:
cc
()
Date: July 11, 2008 01:32
Quote
No Expectations
If the Stones had actually "jumped the shark" none of us would still be here waiting for the next tour or album. /quote]
there are plenty of people here who aren't waiting for the next tour or album. This doesn't disprove what you say--the case then would have to be that no one here was waiting for the next tour or album--but there may be more posters than you realize who aren't all that interested in the Stones' current work.
Re: When did The Rolling Stones Jump the Shark?
Posted by:
melillo
()
Date: July 11, 2008 01:57
that was one of my favorite later happy days episodes, but of course nothing will top the first three seasons when richie and the fonz were at there peak
Re: When did The Rolling Stones Jump the Shark?
Posted by:
sweetcharmedlife
()
Date: July 11, 2008 03:30
Quote
skipstone
Fonzie jumped the shark in some show of Happy Days. I can't remember if that was pointed out.
That was totally absurd...but cool for a kid, as I recall. Fonzie jumped a shark? With his JACKET ON! How cool is THAT?
Isn't that where the expression came from?
"It's just some friends of mine and they're busting down the door"
Re: When did The Rolling Stones Jump the Shark?
Posted by:
Doxa
()
Date: July 11, 2008 03:57
Giving a second to look this thread, and heh - I need to say that guy Doxa do not have a clue about the real sense of "jump the shark"... a good 'answer' though 
- Doxa
- Doxa
Re: When did The Rolling Stones Jump the Shark?
Posted by:
sweet neo con
()
Date: July 11, 2008 05:29
Quote
sweetcharmedlifeQuote
skipstone
Fonzie jumped the shark in some show of Happy Days. I can't remember if that was pointed out.
That was totally absurd...but cool for a kid, as I recall. Fonzie jumped a shark? With his JACKET ON! How cool is THAT?
Isn't that where the expression came from?
yes.
IORR............but I like it!
Re: When did The Rolling Stones Jump the Shark?
Posted by:
No Expectations
()
Date: July 12, 2008 22:31
Quote
ccQuote
No Expectations
If the Stones had actually "jumped the shark" none of us would still be here waiting for the next tour or album. /quote]
there are plenty of people here who aren't waiting for the next tour or album. This doesn't disprove what you say--the case then would have to be that no one here was waiting for the next tour or album--but there may be more posters than you realize who aren't all that interested in the Stones' current work.
Their loss in my humble opinion.
Re: When did The Rolling Stones Jump the Shark?
Posted by:
Slick
()
Date: July 12, 2008 22:54
rapidly eroded, the legacy has been pissed away.Quote
Gazza
I still have an unadulterated love for their music - when they DO bother to create any. While theyre not what they were 30 or 40 years ago (who could be? Its a hell of a shadow to live under) they're still a better band than almost everything thats out there - and on their day, one of the best live acts around. They havent lost it musically to the degree where theyre anything close to being a joke.
Its solely their business & artistic ethics I have the issue with. Up to the time when they started charging silly money for a night's entertainment (1998-99 onwards) they could do no wrong as far as I was concerned. Given the opportunity of going the easy route for maximum financial gain, they'll pursue that option pretty much every time. Pretty much every move they make post 1998 has been PRIMARILY driven by the hunger to accumulate as much revenue as they can. Even their choice of setlists are driven by a revisionist attitude towards their art and the compulsion to tailor it to the corporate customer. I believe that demeans them, and is slowly eroding its way into the way that they'll be remembered.
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