Quote
Doxa
Giving credits is not a simple game that has universal rules for anyone easily to recognize, but more like a game that is constantly in a process of remaking and reinterpretation. Because it is finally a question of money...

I would suppose that, since it is finally a question of money, artists would make a serious point about crediting. When Brian is involved, I can see some naivity and all that.
But take Bill Wyman for example. He claims in his books that he was responsible for some very important parts of songs. I can't see Bill as a naive person. He was like an accountant, keeping close track of all the money involved.
If crediting is so important for the earnings, why did Bill not claim to be credited for contributing to the songs at the appropriate time?
Was it a power game, were there other arrangements in the band about these kind of contributions or does this imply Bill could not really prove he was the one who came up with the riffs he later claimed were his?

>> He claims in his books that he was responsible for some very important parts of songs. <<

you mean the JJF riff, the Paint It Black 2/2 time or whatever it is, and ... ?
(can you remind me what else he takes credit for, please and thank you?)
Bill does write about "power games" over songwriting/credits, and i wouldn't doubt that,
especially considering the context of the times the Stones were growing up as songwriters.

on the other hand, on page 194 of Rolling With the Stones Bill gives a detailed breakdown
of Mick's share of the songwriting royalties for one period, which illustrates real clearly
that who was listed as the songwriters had very little to do with how the money was divided up.
i think it's always real worth bearing in mind that we don't know much about that side of things.

meanwhile, i have a theory about the JJF riff - but since it's merely my personal "feeling"
i'll keep it to myself. :E as for Paint It Black it's my impression that not even Bill
thinks that changing the beat of an existing song is equivalent to composing/co-composing.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2008-05-28 12:12 by with sssoul.

Quote
With Sssoul
can you remind me what else he takes credit for, please and thank you?

I would not know, because I don't have any of his books at hand here. I don't think the number of songs he claims is important. Even if it's only one song, I think it is an interesting point that Bill of all people did not claim his credit at the time. Maybe that tells us something about how crediting was regarded in the late 60s.

Meanwhile we can all fantasize about the process that made our favorite songs. Nothing wrong with that. Just as long as we realize that the way we imagine things is not the absolute truth, there is nothing wrong with a bit of romanticizing.

On much the same issue, Mathew Fisher, organist in Procul Harum was suing recently for his share of the composers royalties for A Whiter Shade of Pale. He won the first case, but lost the appeal hearing though I believe the Judge awarded him a "credit" as a sort of non financial award for his contribution (which some would argue made the record). It took him nearly 40 years to litigate mind, which may not have impresssed the judges.
The trumpet solo in Penny Lane by Dave Mason (classical musician, not of Traffic) is a classic (pardon the pun) - I can't see classical musicians though getting hung up on such vulgar issues as money.

Bill has said why he didn't push the issue of credit too far, he says something along the lines of not wanting to cause an argument when everyone is trying to record/be creative in the studio. He also says that Brian and Charlie's support fell by the wayside when the question of songwriting credits came up at band meetings.

My feeling is that once the way of doing things had been set(during the brian era), anything that Mick or Keith brought in, whether it was finished or not, was always going to have a Jagger/Richards credit no matter what the others contributed. The exception to this was when Bill brought in his own songs.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2008-05-29 01:48 by His Majesty.

Quote
His Majesty
Bill has said why he didn't push the issue of credit too far, he says something along the lines of not wanting to cause an argument when everyone is trying to record/be creative in the studio. He also says that Brian and Charlie's support fell by the wayside when the question of songwriting credits came up at band meetings.

My feeling is that once the way of doing things had been set(during the brian era), anything that Mick or Keith brought in, whether it was finished or not, was always going to have a Jagger/Richards credit no matter what the others contributed. The exception to this was when Bill brought in his own songs.

That is, his ONE song, 'In Another Land'. I don't know how that slipped through. Mick and Keith in jail?

This type discussion is tirin'.
Jagger-Richards is the strongest song writing team
e v e r .
Bill's songs didnt match in during 60s-70s (sample why not below)..
Perhaps they ought to have slipped thru a few numbers in the 80s-90s?
( [Si Si] Je Suis Un Rock Star)

>> his ONE song, 'In Another Land' <<

don't forget Downtown Suzie

that's a page from Bill's Stone Alone, right Christian?

"not a natural singer"

Isn't it ironic that while they've lost all their money due to a piece of Rolling Stones music, they get very regular attention AND appreciation on the Rolling Stones Fanboard?

Jelle

Quote
with sssoul
that's a page from Bill's Stone Alone, right Christian?

"not a natural singer"

Yes, with sssoul.

Quote
sluissie
Isn't it ironic that while they've lost all their money due to a piece of Rolling Stones music, they get very regular attention AND appreciation on the Rolling Stones Fanboard?

Jelle

They didn't exactly lose all their money, I mean, their album still sold bucket loads as did their other singles. The Verve are/were a great band even without Bittersweet Symphony. Their only mistake was using stealing from something that ABKCO owned.

After hearing the ALO orchstra version though, I am surprised that Ashcroft has been so adamant that they really deserved more than just credit for the words.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2008-05-29 16:33 by His Majesty.

Funny, they put a guy "who cant sing" to sing at Westminister Abbey to get their Queen crowned.

Bill Wyman... now there is a 'natural singer'! Unfortunately, so shy... Wasn't ALO so stupid for neglecting such a vocalist - and Mick and Keith for neglecting his genious songs (the evidence can be heard in MONKEY GRIP, etc.)?

Honestly, I have the feeling that Bill Wyman - the man of small details and assemble of facts - was too close and too involved and too bitter and too small to get anything but highly subjective opinions to say about Mick and Keith. He is a nice guy, but he seems to be blind as far as far as estimating his old band mates go. I think he also (to an extent) uses the legacy Brian Jones in his bitter-sounding mocking of The Twins. Otherwise his books are great (as his wonderful, and ever-be-missed bass playing).

That page copied is full of interesting vague claims open for many kind of interpretations. But I won't do it now.

- Doxa



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2008-05-29 17:18 by Doxa.

I guess it's just Bill's experience of it Doxa and although he does moan a lot in that book, he is also complimentary about his old band mates... at times.

>> to get their Queen crowned <<

the Department of Historical Accuracy wishes to note that it wasn't at the coronation
that Keith sang for the queen. he was only eight at the time of the coronation;
he was recruited into the Dartford Technical School choir when he was eleven.
Keith sang with the choir at a lot of events, including at least once for the queen.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2008-05-29 18:33 by with sssoul.

Quote
with sssoul
>> to get their Queen crowned <<

the Department of Historical Accuracy wishes to note that it wasn't at the coronation
that Keith sang for the queen. he was only eight at the time of the coronation;
he was recruited into the Dartford Technical School choir when he was eleven.
Keith sang with the choir at a lot of events, including at least once for the queen.

Thanks! I also felt that is one of those myths surrounding Keith Richards. But a good one!

- doxa

Has anyone ever interviewed Jake Clair, the choirmaster of the Dartford Technical School about how he noticed Keith' (soprano) voice?

OK, OK, here's how the whole story over the two songs went:

Richard Ashcroft initially made a negotiation with Allen Klein (who died this past July at age 77), the Stones' manager from 1965-70, to use part of the Andrew Oldham Orchestra's version of the Rolling Stones' 1965 hit, "The Last Time." The AOO version of the song is available on their 1966 album, The Rolling Stones Songbook. Ashcroft himself was claimed to have been responsible for looping the violin melody in the song.

Fellow Verve member Simon Jones said the deal was originally supposed to have been a 50/50 split over compositional rights, but once Mr. Klein noticed how successful the record was performing since its June 1997 release, he argued the band used more of the sample than originally called for, and ordered EMI Records (the Verve's record label) to give him all the publishing rights (this also meant Mick and Keef got back their songwriting dues, see next paragraph), or yank it off the record shelves. Andrew Oldham, who headed the Orchestra and had been the Stones' manager from 1963-67, also asked for a share of the Verve's song's royalties from EMI and Richard Ashcroft. In response to his loss of composer status over the song, Ashcroft inexplicitly remarked: "The best song that Jagger and Richards wrote in 20 years." Uh, more like 32 years (1965 + 32 = 1997). EDIT: Ashcroft also meant his statement reflected the fact that it was the Stones' biggest hit since "Brown Sugar."

This meant that by copyright law, Mick Jagger and Keith Richards were declared the songwriters of "Bittersweet Symphony." It was Jagger and Richards, and not Richard Ashcroft, who were mentioned as songwriters when "Bittersweet" was nominated for a Grammy Award.

I wonder what the Stones themselves thought of this lawsuit, at the time, between their former record label boss and the Verve. The Stones themselves were also still signed to EMI Records at the time. Heck, I even wonder what all the children of the Stones thought of it (read: Angela Richards, Elizabeth Jagger, Jade Jagger, Jim Jagger, et al.).

On a side note: Angela (Keith's oldest daughter), who was originally given the name Dandelion (which she dropped in 1987 in favor of her present given name), was the one who wisecracked about the Stones' "Anybody Seen My Baby" sounding vaguely like k. d. lang's "Constant Craving."

~Ben Edge (BrianJones1969)



Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 2011-11-17 22:08 by BrianJones1969.

Ashcroft's vocal and words are crap. Anyways I can't cover "Apache", add words to it and then my name as a songwriting credit.

The Verve sound like a washed out bunch of droning hammer heads. Ashcroft is as ugly as he is talentless.

you can probably write better songs squando

Quote
squando


The Verve sound like a washed out bunch of droning hammer heads. Ashcroft is as ugly as he is talentless.

I take it, you're not British?

never understood why some recording artists sample a song to use in theirs

Maybe Mr. Ashcroft wanted to show that he could be the first non-R&B/hip-hop artist (up yours, Mr. Puff Daddy/(P.) Diddy!) to sample any kind of hit song. No R&B/hip-hop artist was ever known to have sampled a Rolling Stones song.

~Ben Edge (BrianJones1969)

Quote
BrianJones1969
Maybe Mr. Ashcroft wanted to show that he could be the first non-R&B/hip-hop artist (up yours, Mr. Puff Daddy/(P.) Diddy!) to sample any kind of hit song. No R&B/hip-hop artist was ever known to have sampled a Rolling Stones song.

~Ben Edge (BrianJones1969)

I don't know if he was the first, but unfortunately others followed him.

This is how our local pop hero Biagio Antonacci murdered Start me up ...

C

Quote
Doxa
Honestly, I have the feeling that Bill Wyman - the man of small details and assemble of facts - was too close and too involved and too bitter and too small to get anything but highly subjective opinions to say about Mick and Keith. He is a nice guy, but he seems to be blind as far as far as estimating his old band mates go. I think he also (to an extent) uses the legacy Brian Jones in his bitter-sounding mocking of The Twins. Otherwise his books are great (as his wonderful, and ever-be-missed bass playing).

I think his book is very important because it gives us a better view of what was going on behind the scene. He do moans sometimes but to be fair they all do more or less.
When it comes to the RS story Bill's words are equal to what Mick and Keith says and one thing that I think Bill's book managed to do was to make a person of Brian Jones. A man rather than just a one-sided wasted monster. That is something Mick and Keith would never bother to do.

Well, the lines around my eyes
Are protected by copyright law


On the internet nobody knows
you're Mick Jagger

There's a coolly ironic moment in BEING MICK where, as Mick arrives at Elton John's garden party, he walks by a string quartet playing the riff that the Verve sampled. Mick says something like, "Very nice".

Biagio Antonacci... people are killed for lesser reasons...

- Doxa