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cc

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Nikolai
So if he was "straining" to be "serious" and "cutting edge" on Outside, what was he doing on Low/Heroes/Lodger/Scary Monsters, then? You're obviously not a fan of either Outside or Earthling, which is fine, but if you were you'd notice there's a helluva lot of humour in both albums.

Low/"Heroes"/Lodger don't have the narrative pretensions of Outside, characters, etc. Their concepts are minimalist, even when the mixes get denser on "Heroes." Unless all that stuff on Outside about the serial killer was part of the joke...

It was indeed a joke, from the phoney American accent up. "Art murder", lyrics about Philip Johnson the architect (I Have Not Been to Oxford Town), nods to Damien Hirst. All healthy post-modern stuff.

As for "narrative pretensions", as you call them - you ever hear that obscure album he made called "Ziggy Stardust"? It was a concept album with a very clear narrative about an alien who becomes a rockstar. And then there was "Diamond Dogs" (a concept album of sorts; the bulk of the songs were written for a musical based on George Orwell's "1984")? The first two (or three, if you count the intro) songs on Diamond Dogs are straight narratives - albeit done in a Burroughsian "cut-up" lyrical technique (Candidate and the album intro). Bowie revisited said technique for Outside.

If you don't like Outside because ... well, you just don't like it or get it, fair enough, but, production techniques aside, it very much much picks up the ball he dropped with Scary Monsters. Although, to be fair, there were very clear signs that he was making interesting, unconventional music again when he released "Buddha of Suburbia" in 1993. That foreshadowed Outside. Both albums even share a song - Strangers When We Meet.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2008-02-24 14:35 by Nikolai.

For my money, the golden years were '74-'79 (Young Americans/Station To Station/Low/Heroes/Lodger). That's when Bowie made his mark from a musical/srtistic standpoint - before and after this era, he was more of a stylist. From '74-'79 (or thereabouts), he was truly creating timeless work.

I think you've stopped a year short, Cosmo. Scary Monsters is a great album, a full stop in the trajectory which started with "Stay" on "Station to Station".

I wouldn't dismiss Ziggy, Alladin Sane and especially not Diamond Dogs either. I think the last two in particular contain the seeds of Young Americans in them. In short, they were as big on substance as they were on style. You could take the opposite view of Young Americans, which Bowie later dismissed as "Plastic Soul" - which, in a way it was, despite being massively influential on all the wrong people.

I think his last creative heyday was Buddha of Suburbia and Outside. He'd actually conceived the latter as more of a sound collage than an actual album, but BMG/RCA wouldn't let him release it that way, Probably a good thing. I've got a couple of bootlegs from those sessions and they're interesting but not really listenable.

I don't know why you're arguing so tenaciously, Nikolai. I consider Bowie the greatest rocker of the 70s, along with Neil Young the only artists to come close to the 60s greats Dylan, the Beatles, the Stones, and the Velvet Underground. I appreciate your comments on Outside--and yes, I know that Ziggy and Diamond Dogs have narratives, though I would never call them "clear"--but you've already agreed with what cosmo, Erik, and I have said--in fact you said it first--that Bowie's best work is in the 70s. Sorry if my evaluation of the 90s-00s stuff doesn't match yours exactly...

by the way, I consider Lodger a concept album too, with songs about travel on the first side and provincial themes on the second. Doesn't bother me... Outside just seems concept first, songs second.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2008-02-24 20:57 by cc.

I have to say I love the early period just as much... esp. Space Oddity and Hunky Dory. No stylism there, just great music. And then Scary Monsters (from 1980) is among my very favorites... perhaps his last truly great album. If I try hhard enough, I can enjoy his last few, but nothing like SM and before. My faves are:

SM, SO, HD, Lodger, Low, RAFOZS, and then spatterings of everything else.

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The Stones
I do like this song. I gotta check out some Bowie music since I presently only got his greatest hits compilation from ´93. I think I'll have a whirl at "Low".

Like some other posters have said Low isn't the obvious place to start - but if you allow it to grow on you it really is an awesome album. It's one of the few that I really can say changed my life.

not even one mention of 'Let's Dance'?!
lol....i consider 'Modern Love' to be amongst his greatest songs, perhaps not as great as the greatest but still great in its own way
if you get me...

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casinoboogie
not even one mention of 'Let's Dance'?!
lol....i consider 'Modern Love' to be amongst his greatest songs, perhaps not as great as the greatest but still great in its own way
if you get me...

I think "Modern Love" is a terrific early 80s Bowie-pop-song, just like the hits "Absolute Beginners", "This Is Not America" and "Loving The Alien".... but the album Let's Dance as a whole is not at all comparable to Bowie 1973-1980, IMO. It's like there's nothing deeper there...there's only the melodies....on the contrary to for instance Low; that has an frightening and astonishing mood throughout.

BTW, not that those stupid polls matters much, but there was a whole edition of Mojo (?) devoted to "the best albums in history", and Bowie's "Low" was rated as the best album of the 70s. Unsuspected...but understandable.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2008-02-24 20:38 by Erik_Snow.

good point.... its just a very good pop album isn't it
nothing as musically 'meaty' as the Berlin Trilogy or indeed, anything before that

thank God for Brian Eno! what an atmosphere he managed to create on those albums

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cc
I don't know why you're arguing so tenaciously, Nikolai. I consider Bowie the greatest rocker of the 70s, along with Neil Young the only artists to come close to the 60s greats Dylan, the Beatles, the Stones, and the Velvet Underground. I appreciate your comments on Outside--and yes, I know that Ziggy and Diamond Dogs have narratives, though I would never call them "clear"--but you've already agreed with what cosmo, Erik, and I have said--in fact you said it first--that Bowie's best work is in the 70s. Sorry if my evaluation of the 90s-00s stuff doesn't match yours exactly...

by the way, I consider Lodger a concept album too, with songs about travel on the first side and provincial themes on the second. Doesn't bother me... Outside just seems concept first, songs second.

Chillll, CC. I like a good debate - as in an intelligent dust-up. All of your posts on here have been well argued. Maybe the concept did come first with Outside, but it also did with Ziggy, Diamond Dogs and, to a lesser extent, with Young Americans (in that he wanted to make a "soul album", where the songs emphasized emotions rather than his past concerns - at least that was his original intention; didn't quite turn out that way).

Lodger's totally underrated, I think. The only duff note is his rewrite of Sister Midnight - but it was half his song.

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casinoboogie
not even one mention of 'Let's Dance'?!
lol....i consider 'Modern Love' to be amongst his greatest songs, perhaps not as great as the greatest but still great in its own way
if you get me...

I think "Modern Love" is a terrific early 80s Bowie-pop-song, just like the hits "Absolute Beginners", "This Is Not America" and "Loving The Alien".... but the album Let's Dance as a whole is not at all comparable to Bowie 1973-1980, IMO. It's like there's nothing deeper there...there's only the melodies....on the contrary to for instance Low; that has an frightening and astonishing mood throughout.

BTW, not that those stupid polls matters much, but there was a whole edition of Mojo (?) devoted to "the best albums in history", and Bowie's "Low" was rated as the best album of the 70s. Unsuspected...but understandable.

Most of Let's Dance is a very very good album. It's pretty much Young Americans 2, when you think about it - lyrically simple songs (except for China Girl, but that was a oldie) produced by one of the lynchpins of the disco era.

Bowie made a couple of serious duff albums in the 80s - Tonight was dreadful, but it had Loving The Alien, Blue Jean and Don't Look Down on it. Never Let Me Down was hideous, but the title track was ok. And I liked some of that first Tin Machine album too - especially I Can't Read.

Absolute Beginners, This is not America, Underground and even When The Wind Blows are great songs - especially the first two.

Speed of life...

All of Bowie's stuff from the 70's and then his recovery in the 90's is great! Love The Man Who Sold the World, a very underrated disc. Very heavy and dark. But he really started to come out of the excesses of the 80's with Black Tie White Noise. There are a lot of great interesting grooves on that one, and you can hear his space funk starting to form, which led to Outside. 1.Outside is one of his best! Up there with his 70's material. And Heathen is the long lost cousin of Low, so much so when he played in a small venue in New York he performed all of Low, took an intermission and then played all of Heathen. Fantastic! I have a boot of it, not great quality, but you can really hear how much Low influence him with Heathen...Heathen really is a stunning piece of art...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2008-02-26 01:11 by whitem8.

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Nikolai
I think you've stopped a year short, Cosmo. Scary Monsters is a great album, a full stop in the trajectory which started with "Stay" on "Station to Station".

I wouldn't dismiss Ziggy, Alladin Sane and especially not Diamond Dogs either. I think the last two in particular contain the seeds of Young Americans in them. In short, they were as big on substance as they were on style. You could take the opposite view of Young Americans, which Bowie later dismissed as "Plastic Soul" - which, in a way it was, despite being massively influential on all the wrong people.

I think his last creative heyday was Buddha of Suburbia and Outside. He'd actually conceived the latter as more of a sound collage than an actual album, but BMG/RCA wouldn't let him release it that way, Probably a good thing. I've got a couple of bootlegs from those sessions and they're interesting but not really listenable.

Y'know, Scary Monsters just didn't get me - some great stuff on there, but it just doesn't quite stack up against the prior 5 albums. I do enjoy the earlier and later stuff as well, but I find it all wanting when compared to that 5-album stretch. I dig the Plastic Soul thing quite a bit (I certainly prefer flesh and blood soul, but Bowie's take will do in a pinch) - Young Americans may actually be my favorite Bowie album.

Is there any love for the "Hours" album out there? It's not his most poppy material, but there is some real gems for anyone interested!

Dreaming My Life, Seven and Thursdays Child are all great songs.

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whitem8
All of Bowie's stuff from the 70's and then his recovery in the 90's is great! Love The Man Who Sold the World, a very underrated disc. Very heavy and dark. But he really started to come out of the excesses of the 80's with Black Tie White Noise. There are a lot of great interesting grooves on that one, and you can hear his space funk taking for here which led to Outside. 1.Outside is one of his best! Up there with his 70's material. And Heathen is the long lost cousin of Low, so much so when he played in a small venue in New York he performed all of Low, took an intermission and then played all of Heathen. Fantastic! I have a bood of it, not great quality, but you can really hear how much Low influence him with Heathen...Heathen really is a stunning piece of art...

He did the same sort of gig in London, at the Royal Festival Hall. I was fortunate enough to be able to get tickets (through Bowie.net). I thought it was a bit boring after the initial excitement bubbled down.

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Nikolai
I think you've stopped a year short, Cosmo. Scary Monsters is a great album, a full stop in the trajectory which started with "Stay" on "Station to Station".

I wouldn't dismiss Ziggy, Alladin Sane and especially not Diamond Dogs either. I think the last two in particular contain the seeds of Young Americans in them. In short, they were as big on substance as they were on style. You could take the opposite view of Young Americans, which Bowie later dismissed as "Plastic Soul" - which, in a way it was, despite being massively influential on all the wrong people.

I think his last creative heyday was Buddha of Suburbia and Outside. He'd actually conceived the latter as more of a sound collage than an actual album, but BMG/RCA wouldn't let him release it that way, Probably a good thing. I've got a couple of bootlegs from those sessions and they're interesting but not really listenable.

Y'know, Scary Monsters just didn't get me - some great stuff on there, but it just doesn't quite stack up against the prior 5 albums. I do enjoy the earlier and later stuff as well, but I find it all wanting when compared to that 5-album stretch. I dig the Plastic Soul thing quite a bit (I certainly prefer flesh and blood soul, but Bowie's take will do in a pinch) - Young Americans may actually be my favorite Bowie album.

Ah, I should've paid closer attention to that wonderful sig of yours. Sly Stone in flight! Of course you'll like Young americans above all the others. It used to be my favourite too, for the longest time, but I always skipped Across The Universe. It's still atrocious to these ears. He had better songs to use instead, surely? Probably overawed by meeting Lennon.

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whitem8
All of Bowie's stuff from the 70's and then his recovery in the 90's is great! Love The Man Who Sold the World, a very underrated disc. Very heavy and dark. But he really started to come out of the excesses of the 80's with Black Tie White Noise. There are a lot of great interesting grooves on that one, and you can hear his space funk taking for here which led to Outside. 1.Outside is one of his best! Up there with his 70's material. And Heathen is the long lost cousin of Low, so much so when he played in a small venue in New York he performed all of Low, took an intermission and then played all of Heathen. Fantastic! I have a bood of it, not great quality, but you can really hear how much Low influence him with Heathen...Heathen really is a stunning piece of art...

Very good point about Black Tie White Noise. Some great stuff there. Jump and Pallas Athena are pretty much precursors to Earthling and Outside, you're right.

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Nikolai
Ah, I should've paid closer attention to that wonderful sig of yours. Sly Stone in flight! Of course you'll like Young americans above all the others. It used to be my favourite too, for the longest time, but I always skipped Across The Universe. It's still atrocious to these ears. He had better songs to use instead, surely? Probably overawed by meeting Lennon.

Funny you should say that - my brother is of the same opinion (regarding ATU), I don't mind it actually (even though I hate the Beatles). But yes, I agree, there certainly was something better he could've included.

This is my list, I lost track with Lodger

Funny always thought that Hunky was released after Ziggy

The Man Who Sold the World 1970
Hunky Dory 1971
The Rise and Fall of Ziggy Stardust and the Spiders from Mars 1972
Aladdin Sane 1973
Pin Ups 1973
Diamond Dogs 1974
Young Americans 1975
Station to Station 1976
Low 1977
"Heroes" 1977

(list taken from wikipedia)

__________________________

I think ''Jump'''is a very good tune

Jump (They Say) is a good one. To me Let's Dance was to predictable in many ways...and even Bowie has acknowledged it was made "for my retirement." Got him his biggest hits in the US, and a massive world tour, but the disc is a bit too commercial and flat, and it started his downward spriral in the rest of the 80's. Black Tie does have a lot of interesting stuff on it, and it takes a few listens to get into it, which usually means it is a good Bowie disc...You've Been Around is fantastic, as is Night Flights, some cool live versions of that from the 1.Outside tour....

There is a nice little box set just released of his most recent discs, Hours, Heathen, Reality, with bounus discs...

Hours is kind of derided by some fans, but I like it a lot. Seven and Survive are among some of his best writing and great in concert.

Saw him on the Reality tour and he was fantastic and really pulled out some great raritites, Quicksand, The Man Who Sold the World, All the Young Dudes, to name a few...
Lets hope he has been working in secret on something stellar!

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iamthedj
Is there any love for the "Hours" album out there? It's not his most poppy material, but there is some real gems for anyone interested!

Dreaming My Life, Seven and Thursdays Child are all great songs.

Hours starts brilliantly - Thursday's Child and Something in the Air - WOW! - what a great 1-2 KO, and then it's almost a case of "Where'd the album go?". I liked the stuff he did for the Omikron soundtrack and had high hopes for Hours, but they were dashed. I respect him for making an album that was a lot more pared down, basic and confessional after Outside/Earthling and the experiments with drum n bass, but most of the songs on Hours simply weren't strong enough. I'm still waiting for an interesting Bowie album. Heathen was much better than Hours, but Reality sucked big time.

I didn't (and still don't) understand "hours..."'s bad rep. (to me it harkened back to HUNKY DORY), and can't begin to comprehend how REALITY "sucked big time". I'm happy that I found immense pleasure in both.

And for the record: LODGER *rules*.

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Glam Descendant
I didn't (and still don't) understand "hours..."'s bad rep. (to me it harkened back to HUNKY DORY), and can't begin to comprehend how REALITY "sucked big time". I'm happy that I found immense pleasure in both.

And for the record: LODGER *rules*.

Well, each to his or her own, GD. I wouldn't compare Hours to Hunky Dory though - that was a great album. Hours didn't really have the songs to match the mood, I thought.

Reality was dire, sorry, his equivalent of a latter-day Stones album. I hated it then, hate it now. Only Bring Me The Disco King was any good, and he'd tried recording it for Black Tie and Earthling, did record a version of it for the Underworld film soundtrack, and finally did that jazzy version for Reality.

yeah, I think Lodger is perhaps his most overlooked album. It always gets a mention as part of the "trilogy" (though actually didn't Eno depart while making it?), but little of the love. It's great! It's also wonderful how Bowie took an idea in Low and built on it through 3 albums.

Apparently there are qualities to the Lodger mix that are impossible to appreciate without a first-rate playback system... still not having one, I can't say exactly what these qualities are supposed to be!

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cc
yeah, I think Lodger is perhaps his most overlooked album. It always gets a mention as part of the "trilogy" (though actually didn't Eno depart while making it?), but little of the love. It's great!

Lodger is my favorite of the trilogy (loaded with dynamite songs) - and, my second favorite Bowie record overall.

I think my Bowie list would run:
Young Americans
Lodger
Station To Station
Hunky Dory
Low
Heroes
Ziggy

no Aladdin Sane?... I don't know where I'd rank it overall, just that I usually prefer it to Ziggy. "Panic in Detroit" may be my favorite Bowie track.

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cc
no Aladdin Sane?... I don't know where I'd rank it overall, just that I usually prefer it to Ziggy. "Panic in Detroit" may be my favorite Bowie track.

Alladin Sane's infinitely superior to Ziggy, I think too, but Diamond Dogs wipes the floor with both.

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cc
yeah, I think Lodger is perhaps his most overlooked album. It always gets a mention as part of the "trilogy" (though actually didn't Eno depart while making it?), but little of the love. It's great! It's also wonderful how Bowie took an idea in Low and built on it through 3 albums.

Apparently there are qualities to the Lodger mix that are impossible to appreciate without a first-rate playback system... still not having one, I can't say exactly what these qualities are supposed to be!

I'm playing it now. I got it when it first came out. I was 12 at the time. I didn't appreciate it then as much as I do now. It was a companion piece to Talking Heads' Fear of Music, which Eno also had a hand in.

Listening to it now, you can hear where Damon Albarn got his entire career from.

Eno left before the album was completed, which may or may not have been the reason for the album closing with Bowie saying "Project cancelled!".

Damn this thread's good!

I STILL REFUSE TO LISTEN TO "REALITY" THOUGH!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2008-02-26 18:12 by Nikolai.