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Re: OT- A history question for my European friends
Posted by: schillid ()
Date: February 8, 2008 23:17

Quote
HelterSkelter
You're right Schillid - just took some stuff at Itchycoo Park and now the world is beautiful again smiling smiley

I checked on mapquest... but I can't find "Itchycoo Park". Where IS that?

Re: OT- A history question for my European friends
Posted by: Elmo Lewis ()
Date: February 8, 2008 23:26

Thanks, gmanp, that's a great idea (I'm not above stealing a good idea!).

And, please y'all, let's not make this a political rant. It's just a simple request for "a little help from my friends".

"No Anchovies, Please"

Re: OT- A history question for my European friends
Posted by: Adrian-L ()
Date: February 8, 2008 23:27

Quote
rooster
You can show them the Shoah Dvd (6 dvds!) but its shocking and heartbreaking...but thats what it was

yes- the best document, of this event thats available.

Re: OT- A history question for my European friends
Posted by: Rockman ()
Date: February 8, 2008 23:48

Horrific story but one piece
of totally brilliant film making from Elem Klimo....





ROCKMAN

Re: OT- A history question for my European friends
Posted by: masseolle ()
Date: February 8, 2008 23:55

I think that a good way to start, not the kids but maybe yourself, is to read:Gitta Sereny Into the Darkness 1974 about Franz Stangl who was the "boss" at Treblinka and Christopher Browning Ordinary men: reserve batallion 101 1992.
Both books give a really harrowing view of the Holocaust and these stories are really something that should be compulsory reading in schools, not only in Europe but in USA as well!

Re: OT- A history question for my European friends
Posted by: skipstone ()
Date: February 9, 2008 00:04

Possibly one thing that could be really expounded upon was the fact that nothing digital existed, that it was all very time consuming and exhausting...and that many many many people were killed for, what I personally think, nothing. I mean innocent people, what @#$%& did to the Jews...just stupid stupid stupid...

That war was actually something that took place - there was no TV, no video games to train people, no internet to just gaze upon some facts or lies, no CNN to leer at for 2 seconds and change he channel to ESPN because, what, another 4 people of whoever died in Iraq last night and there's Champoinship poker on instead etc...or anywhere else - it was do or die.

Re: OT- A history question for my European friends
Posted by: deadegad ()
Date: February 9, 2008 00:16

Quote
HelterSkelter
One mistake ALWAYS made about the European portion of WWII is that it was an ENTIRELY Jewish/Nazi only situation when that isn't true at all. Yes, the majority of deaths at the concentration camps were Jewish but there were also tons of Gypsies, Gays, Lesbians, Handicap people, Retarded people. There's a brilliant interview with Charlie Rose and Film maker Roman Polanski (a Polish Jew) on You Tube were he refuses to call what happened in WWII "The Holocaust" because he says WWII was about much more than just "The Holocaust". He also says some similar things in the interview of the deluxe DVD version of THE PIANIST, a brilliant film about survival in the Polish Jewish Getto during WWII and the Nazi invasion of Poland. He says something like "There was no such thing as a "good group or bad group" there were just "good people and bad people". He said that in his personal history of hiding out from the Nazi's he met good Jews and bad Jews, good Poles and bad Poles, and good Germans and bad Germans. I appreciate his high caliber of thinking very much since some of my ancestors died or were horrible victims of the Nazi war machine and my family's not Jewish. This simplistic summary of WWII as a Jewish - Nazi war is really very inaccurate but unfortunately the further we get away from those days the more this will stick as the "Official Line" and once again the accuracy of a major historical event will be destroyed (as was the Kennedy Assassination for example).

SECOND POINT: Always keep an eye on your Government because the more powerful they get the more corrupt and evil they become. It happened in 1930's Germany and it's now happening in 2000's USA as our freedoms are being taken away and FASCISM is slowly creeping in - this isn't a political opinion, this is a simple fact. It all happens VERY slowly, Never overnight. Tell your students to beware because it's here and now it just needs to grow as it will (1 or 2 more terrorist attacks inside the USA and we'll be at full blown fascism)

Show your student THE PIANIST and CHILDREN OF MEN DVD's to show them how it was not to long ago and how it will be someday soon.........

My parent came to America in 1950 (wasn't born yet of course) so I consider myself a European with US papers...... (In response to your thread title)

HK has a point about Polanski's observation of good and bad people making choices which are good, bad, or even worse. In fact, Polanski lived it.

It might be that they are too young for these two movies but they fit perfectly with this theme of good and bad people/ actions as opposed to just good and bad groups. The movies: Downfall(Der Untergang), and Sophie Scholl: The Last Days(die letzten Tagen).

In these two films Polanski's point is really proven brilliant in the real-life, actual choices, made by Traudl Junge in Downfall, and Sophie Scholl in the film of the same name.

Traudl Junge makes the point herself at the end of Downfall during a clip of a real-life interview when she mentions Sophie Scholl's memorial and its impact on herself, Junge.

Junge realizes that she and Scholl were the same age when Scholl was decapitated for protesting @#$%&, when at that exact time Junge, against her family's advice, went to work for @#$%& himself.

Two women, the same age, belonging to the same 'group,' making two very, very different choices.

Junge realized that despite her being young, she had a choice, and she made the wrong one, whereas Scholl too had a choice and paid the ultimate price for her it: she gave her life.

Powerful stuff. Choices.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2008-02-09 08:13 by deadegad.

Re: OT- A history question for my European friends
Posted by: rooster ()
Date: February 9, 2008 00:22

They started Progaganda a bit earlier.....but that was the moment it came of real ugly (goebels) they still use this tactic and brainwash...till the mass believe

Re: OT- A history question for my European friends
Posted by: Nanker Phlegm ()
Date: February 9, 2008 18:27

IN A WORD

TOLERANCE.

Re: OT- A history question for my European friends
Posted by: with sssoul ()
Date: February 9, 2008 19:01

>> tolerance <<

how about respect instead? ("tolerance" assumes a kind of superiority -
as if one group is in a position to "graciously tolerate" another ... or not)

there's a site called Jewishgen that often has very educational/worthwhile projects going on
that people can volunteer to help out with - maybe there's something that 12-year-olds could help with/learn from.
a few years ago for example they needed people to help transcribe newly-unearthed records
of all the prisoners that went through Dachau, in order to create a searchable database.
as a Jew living in Poland i didn't need that exercise to make me aware that Jews were far from the only victims,
but transcribing a few thousand names & vital statistics certainly did make a huge impression.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2008-02-09 19:16 by with sssoul.

Re: OT- A history question for my European friends
Posted by: Baboon Bro ()
Date: February 9, 2008 19:12

Jews were the main goal. No use denying that.
But when some group begin to feel superior; we're all in danger.

Re: OT- A history question for my European friends
Posted by: Nanker Phlegm ()
Date: February 9, 2008 20:21

Quote
Nanker Phlegm
IN A WORD

TOLERANCE.

very good point and I was about to agree when it occured to me that theres a few people i don't respect but would stop short of eliminating them and their offspring from this planet, Theres are people i tolerate not because i am superior, just dont get on.

Another lesson to be learned, might be not to satnd back when you see similiar injustices and horrors today. Here in the UK the reaction to some "political" immigrants is a disgrace. heres the lyrics to a Christy Moore song, in turn ispired by a well known poem. I'm sure we all know the signifigance of the different coloured triangles.

Yellow Triangel Christy Moore (after Pastor Niemöller - dedicated to the memory of Phyllis McGhee)


The black triangle
The pink triangle
The green triangle
The red triangle
The blue triangle
The black triangle

And they wore the yellow triangle

When first they came for the criminals I did not speak
Then they began to take the jews
When they fetched the people who were member s of trades unions
I did not speak
Then they took the bible students
Round they took the homosexuals
Then they gathered up the students and the gypsies

I did not speak
I did not speak


Eventually they came for me there was no one left to speak

The black triangle
The pink triangle
The green triangle
The red triangle
The blue triangle
The black triangle

And they wore the yellow triangle
And they wore the yellow triangle
And they wore the yellow triangle
And they wore the yellow triangle

Re: OT- A history question for my European friends
Posted by: rooster ()
Date: February 9, 2008 20:30

I have read hundreds of books about this....this was one of the best

Re: OT- A history question for my European friends
Posted by: rooster ()
Date: February 9, 2008 20:41

another one so much better and...ect than Anne frank (god bless here)

Re: OT- A history question for my European friends
Posted by: rooster ()
Date: February 9, 2008 20:43

This might be a good one

Re: OT- A history question for my European friends
Posted by: rooster ()
Date: February 9, 2008 20:53

another good book....no good or bad....it was a shame shoah broke my heart

Re: OT- A history question for my European friends
Posted by: rooster ()
Date: February 9, 2008 20:54


Re: OT- A history question for my European friends
Posted by: HelterSkelter ()
Date: February 9, 2008 21:44

Quote
Baboon Bro
Jews were the main goal. No use denying that.
But when some group begin to feel superior; we're all in danger.
No, when they start to ACT upon those "superior feelings" and hurt others that's when we're all in trouble


Yes BB, but JEWS were not the ONLY goal and they surely were not the only victims. You ever check and see how many non Jewish Poles, Czechs, Slavs, Gypsies, Gays, Lesbians, Cripples, Retarded, etc were gassed and burned in the camps. To make this a Jewish/Nazi war ONLY is TOTALLY inaccurate and highly offensive to people like me who's ancestors suffered and died at the hands of the Nazi's but yet were not Jewish. So tell me, they don't count? I also find it offensive that there are groups who try to rewrite history and just make the suffering about there own group sound like that's the entire story - that's pretty disgusting, trying to monopolize pain and horror and terror. LET'S NOT RE-WRITE HISTORY !!!

Here's a very wise, thoughtful, and talented man, ROMAN POLANSKI (who also happens to be a Polish Jew), talking about the realities of hiding out in the Jewish Getto in Cracow and how he refuses to use the word "HOLOCAUST" as a description for WWII (because the war was much more than that). But how many honest thinkers are there around that will do this to try to keep history accurate? Very Few - seems like everything's subject to the corruption of propaganda....




Re: OT- A history question for my European friends
Posted by: jagger50 ()
Date: February 9, 2008 22:10

The film The Pianist for one. Or the book The Holocaust. Where I work there are hundreds of dead Germans and children in our churchyard. But let´s not forget rock n´ roll. This site.

Re: OT- A history question for my European friends
Posted by: HelterSkelter ()
Date: February 9, 2008 22:16

Good point Jagger50, not all Germans were pro Nazi, far from it. I know a non Jewish German couple who had had enough, couldn't deal with @#$%& and the Nazi's and took off to Toronto, Canada... The Story's not as simple as some people wanna make it....

Re: OT- A history question for my European friends
Posted by: rooster ()
Date: February 9, 2008 22:17

Its a lot of fear...we need R&R!!

Re: OT- A history question for my European friends
Posted by: Baboon Bro ()
Date: February 9, 2008 22:45

My great Kozmic Bro Elmo has asked us not to make this a political thread.
I might have some split meanings to some poster(s) here; yet I rest my case.

Re: OT- A history question for my European friends
Posted by: jagger50 ()
Date: February 9, 2008 23:00

Let the Holocaust stand testament to what human beings are capable of doing to one another.

Re: OT- A history question for my European friends
Posted by: Elmo Lewis ()
Date: February 9, 2008 23:03

Thanks, Bro and j50.

"No Anchovies, Please"

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