okay so on the basis of chippy's great shot (see Brian's hair, and Brian, Keith and Mick have cuffs on their shirts),
could this be the "wall" shot that Townsend mentioned as one that Woodgate took?
(they're sort of looking to the viewers' left, so it sort of fits the description!)


- 1963, maybe by Crispian Woodgate?? (courtesy of Rockman)

i hope the juf comes back to the thread and would be willing to ask Philip Townsend if this is Woodgate's shot -
and i'm hereby officially back to suspecting the one Adi Tyler posted could be another of 'em.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2008-01-04 23:25 by with sssoul.

ROCKMAN

ok, word from the master himself, philip townsend:

"The first pix sssoul sent is not mine. The two pics sssoul posted from the first session
on walls are both mine. The autographed fan card also posted by sssoul is the one (..) It was taken by Woodgate as was the one of the boys
in the car. I think that Bill Wyman has the only copy. The third Woodgate shot I mentioned is illustrated at page 110 in ‘The RS by Mark Paytress’. The caption says it is from the first photo shoot which it is not, it was taken later. I believe that Woodgate was commissioned by Decca and the session is in Redferns collection.
Just to put the record straight ,all the photos that I claim were taken by me were.I do not own copyrights of any other snappers work and I certainly would never sign or put my studio seal on anything that was not mine."

thanks Rockman - that one's in one of the Townsend galleries, but without the guitar in the tree. :E

Hey it is to...missed that one...



ROCKMAN

So which one is the first you sent, with sssoul?
Yes, you got me too curious now :-P

thank you thank you thank you, the juf and Philip Townsend!

>> The first pix sssoul sent is not mine. <<

... which one is Mr Townsend referring to here, the juf, please and thank you? the "toppling" one
that Adi Tyler posted? i'm not sure in which order you presented them to him ...

>> The two pics sssoul posted from the first session on walls are both mine. <<



that would be those two: both may 4th 1963, both Philip Townsend. got it! thank you.

>> The autographed fan card also posted by sssoul is the one (..) It was taken by Woodgate <<

cool to know - thank you

>> as was the one of the boys in the car. I think that Bill Wyman has the only copy. <<

so ... this isn't the "piled on each other" shot that chippy posted for us.

>> The third Woodgate shot I mentioned is illustrated at page 110 in ‘The RS by Mark Paytress’ <<

ahh okay! that's Paytress's Off the Record. the same shot is on page 57 of Rolling With the Stones.

>> Just to put the record straight, all the photos that I claim were taken by me were.
I do not own copyrights of any other snappers work and I certainly would never sign
or put my studio seal on anything that was not mine. <<

vast apologies if i offended Mr Townsend - i was simply trying to make sense of the statement in ALO's book,
and didn't mean to suggest that Mr Townsend ever claimed anything was his when it wasn't!
i'm *very* interested in properly crediting photos - which is why i asked about that puzzling statement
and i'm really glad if it's given Mr Townsend a chance to correct a misunderstanding.
again, apologies if i caused any upset or offense - sure didn't mean to.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2008-01-05 20:09 by with sssoul.

1) The RS by Mark Paytress.

... I don't know this one.

2) "The first pix sssoul sent is not mine."
sssoul, which one?


3) ...as was the one of the boys in the car. I think that Bill Wyman has the only copy.

Therefore there 're only two pix of C.Woodgate circulating, the one you posted with the autographs and the one on Mark Paytress book?

with sssoul Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> thank you thank you thank you, the juf and Philip
> Townsend!
>
> >> The first pix sssoul sent is not mine. <<
>
> ... which one is Mr Townsend referring to here,
> the juf, please and thank you?


Philip Townsend refers to your yesterday's pix, the ones you started the topic with. And no, Philip is never offended by questions about his work, don't worry.
Thank you for your interest in his work.

>> Philip Townsend refers to your yesterday's pix, the ones you started the topic with <<

wait ... the first three i posted yesterday?!



in Rolling With the Stones that one is attributed to Philip Townsend, so ... ohh man, am i confused!

a friend of mine and i talked to him for a long time when we met him at the stones convention in london (thank you matt for putting that together). i couldn't help but buy 5 of his small prints which he signed there and they are proudly displayed on my wall. he was a very friendly and fascinating guy with lots of stories. he had an interesting perspective on rupert murdoch.

yes I have Off the Record; sorry. Page 110 ok. I don't understand... to me it seems the same session of PT; or he was together with CW or they really did in the space of 30 minutes one from the other.

>> Therefore there are only two pix of C. Woodgate circulating,
the one you posted with the autographs and the one on Mark Paytress book? <<

that's not quite what i understand, straycat58 -
i think Mr Townsend is simply saying he hasn't seen many of Woodgate's around.
i think the one chippy posted for us is also identified as Woodgate's, right chippy?

but now i am *totally* confused about which ones Mr Townsend is saying are not his -
the ones i started the post with - besides the one where they're sitting in the street,
one is in front of a pub and the other is at those phone boxes. they're so *very* like shots in Mr Townsend's gallery -
i'm really really hoping he'll be willing to clarify a bit more! was another photographer with him that day??

>> yes I have Off the Record; sorry. Page 110 ok. I don't understand...
to me it seems the same session of PT <<

look closely at Brian, Keith and Mick, straycat58 - in the shot in Paytress (and a few of these others,
eg the one i posted at the top of page 3 of this thread) their shirts are light-coloured and have collars & cuffs.
in the Townsend shots, all five Stones are wearing dark rollneck-type jumpers/sweaters, not shirts.

that's what i meant last night when i was wondering whether they changed clothes in the middle of the shoot -
home was right around the corner, so it's not impossible! but now i'm too confused by which "first shots from me"
are not Philip Townsend's, so i'd better shut up until further notice.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2008-01-04 23:09 by with sssoul.

Those were great ! Thanks

sssoul , at this point I still hav eto understand where Townsend comes from. I thought he was the Decca photographer by he says that it was Woodgate to be sent by Decca.
Therefore who called Townsend for this photo session? and who paid? Easton?

thanks for all the terrific photos
a great thread!

straycat58 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> sssoul , at this point I still hav eto understand
> where Townsend comes from. I thought he was the
> Decca photographer by he says that it was Woodgate
> to be sent by Decca.
> Therefore who called Townsend for this photo
> session? and who paid? Easton?



from what I remember from Philip Townsend's story: it was ALO who asked PT to take the first shots, they were very close friends. I think some of PT's pix were used at Decca's office for promotional purposes, i.e., to convince Decca.

>> from what I remember from Philip Townsend's story:
it was ALO who asked PT to take the first shots, they were very close friends. <<

thank you the juf. this is all fascinating and it's so good of you to act as an intermediary
in this very cool communication. Phelge, Bill and ALO all write quite different things about these photo sessions
but i think i'm beginning to understand why - it sounds/looks like Philip Townsend and Crispian Woodgate
did similar sessions right around the same time, so no wonder people confuse the two occasions.

all right, let's see if this helps at all, and whether i'm following all this properly:

my current theory is that these three are all by Crispian Woodgate - or anyway not by Philip Townsend.
i hope the gallant juf and Mr Townsend have enough patience left to correct or confirm that:



these on the other hand i'm now thoroughly confused about:



the two taken from across the street are on Philip Townsend's sites, which is why i thought
the third one is his shot as well. is that not right??
if not, it would be brilliant to know who did take it, please and thank you!

the next two also confuse me:



as i've noted, the one where they're sitting in the street is credited to Philip Townsend
in Rolling With the Stones; and the one on the right sure looks like the same "Australian pub"
in some real similar shots on Mr Townsend's sites. so if Mr Townsend is saying they *aren't* his ...
i'm confused! and would be hugely grateful for any available de-confusion.

finally, a pair that i hope i now have labelled correctly, which show pretty clearly
how easy it is to confuse the two shoots:



they were obviously taken real close together in both time and space, but
Brian, Mick and Keith are dressed differently, and Brian and Charlie are both combed differently.
smile: the steadfast Bill remained his steadfast self for both sessions. :E

and once again: thanks & thanks & thanks to the gallant juf and Mr Townsend.
it's splendid of you to do this, and the Historical Record will be deeply grateful too.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2008-01-05 15:23 by with sssoul.

again, will ask Philip, will get back to you.

thanks so much, the juf!

in the meantime i've doublechecked, and the "pub shot" i posted on page 1
is in one of the on-line Philip Townsend galleries:


- may 4th 1963 by Philip Townsend

so there's clearly some misunderstanding about which "first pix sssoul sent" he's saying he didn't take.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2008-01-05 15:35 by with sssoul.

here's Philip Townsend's reply:

"The pix on the wall is not exactly the one I referred to as being in RS by Paytress but almost. Brian's hair has been cut, So I presume it's Woodgate's. Unless three snappers took the same pixs.

Sssoul...I’m not offended, it’s all so complicated that I was just pointing out the truth. Why CW went to almost the same spots and took almost the same shots as me I fail to understand.
The image we call ‘No Parking’ is mine from the first session.
The third shot I think CW took and I have seen is piled in the car. Can't find Chippy’s posting of it, but perhaps Bill does not have the only
copy. The shot posted by sssoul on the wall with CW at front right is mine but the other one on the same posting which is almost identical is not. The three on one strip starting with piled up on the seat are not mine.
All the ones at Marble Arch in front of telephone boxes are mine.

ALO asked me to take the first session before they got the Decca contract and before they did any demos for Decca. The juf is right these were before Decca was involved but they did take the collection to Decca and it may have helped get the deal.
I was not paid by Andrew as he was a friend and I knew they would succeed. The deal was: Give the RS free prints and you can sell what you like when they are famous. All the other snappers who were paid do not legally own the
copyrights. They are owned by the people who paid them. Look at the Beatles. They are always suing photographers. It’s just that the RS have always taken a relaxed attitude to copyright infringements. I have discussed the whole matter with the management regarding my photographs and I get the impression that they might start getting nasty with a few other members of my profession. They understand my agreement with ALO and are happy about it. If a shot is taken for
a cover it is owned by the record company, and that’s that.

I hope this sorts it out, we must not think ill of the dead so must not blame CW for being a copycat. He may have been told by Decca to copy mine so Decca would own them. Someone should check with Redferns as to who their client is..I think it’s Decca.
Philip Townsend "

thank you thank you to the gallant juf & Philip Townsend for all that clarification!
so Bill is simply wrong in identifying that "toppling off the wall" shot as being from the may 4th session -
as i said earlier, though, it is easy to see why people confuse the two shoots,
and of course everyone involved was busy *being involved* - which meant having way better things to do
than note down every exact date/occasion. but it's very very cool when we can still piece together
how it must have gone down - so thank you thank you again for the brilliant input.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2008-01-06 17:51 by with sssoul.

my pleasure, with sssoul!

pauline, the juf

straycat58 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> 1) The RS by Mark Paytress.
>
> ... I don't know this one.
>

I think there's a confusion with another book by Mark Paytress called The Rolling Stones Files (foreward by Chris Jagger). Some cool photos in it - billed as "Exclusive! 400 recently discovered photographs from the Daily Mirror archives".

great, great stuff.... i personally, cannot get enough of the 'early' Stones.
It's the period that means and touches me the most.

Thanks to all the contributors to this great thread, and Mr Townsend,
in particular.

chippy my dear, i hope you'll come around sometime and let us know if the great Pile of Stones photo
that you posted on page two (thank you thank you!) is credited to Crispian Woodgate in the source you found it in.
it sure looks like it was taken at the same time as the one in Paytress that Mr Townsend says is Woodgate's,
and like the "toppling off a wall" shot - but it would be great to be sure :E



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2008-01-06 20:33 by with sssoul.

sssoul i left info above da pic
here it is again
from The Rolling Stones By Tony Jasper
below is all thats listed in the credits section for that photo

credit to reproduce - Cyrus Andrews

ah - thank you chippy my dear. i did see that information in your post,
but i thought maybe it was also credited specifically to Woodgate.
that "credit to reproduce" is a bit weird - i guess Cyrus Andrews owns the rights,
but i wonder who took the shot? either way: thank you chippy!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2008-01-06 22:19 by with sssoul.