according to Bill Wyman in "Rolling With The Stones" ( a wealth of info. IF you go by the assumption that Bill is correct),with the exception of Sister Morphine-Sticky Fingers was started at Muscle Shoals dec. 69 and completed with the strings overdub at Trident(London) Jan 71. The songs he specifically addresses are: You Gotta Move,Brown Sugar,Wild Horses(Muscle Shoals),Midnight Mile,Sway,Bitch(Stargroves w/Mobile)and Cant You Hear Me Knockin(Olympic) with overdub sessions at Olympic. As mentioned above he also lists many song that were also recorded that wound up on Exile which would explain why ABKCO retained publishing rights to alot of Exile songs. Does that mean they still receive a cut of the publishing royalties? I've also wondered about the use of "Start Me Up" with Windows promo a few years back. I dont think we can blame that on Klein-as much as I would like to!!

All you guys need more acetates and tapes, then its easy to figure out...

JR

stone-relics Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> All you guys need more acetates and tapes, then
> its easy to figure out...
>
> JR

Or someone who has some could just give the dates of the acetates he owns and atleast say if they are complete or not.

'rolls eyes smiley'

ABKCO controls the publishing rights to all the songs on STICKY FINGERS (except "You Gotta Move") and several songs on EXILE that were listed with the copyright office prior to October 1970. The rights to the album are controlled by Promotone, but the ABKCO settlement allows for approved tracks to appear on compilations (HOT ROCKS, ROLLED GOLD, THE LONDON YEARS, FORTY LICKS Disc One, and SINGLES 1968-1971). Its worth noting ABKCO encountered no difficulty including STICKY FINGERS outtakes on METAMORPHOSIS either. "@#$%& Blues" was also included in early pressings of THE REST OF THE BEST box set through the ABKCO settlement as well.

>> Does that mean they still receive a cut of the publishing royalties? <<

they don't receive "a cut" of them - they receive the publishing royalties.
(which are not the same as the songwriting royalties or performers' royalties -
but they are way more than the artists wanted him to have.)

I had the pleasure of watching Gimme Shelter with Rick Hall - Jimmy Johnson's former boss from Muscle Shoals. Hall was proud to say his FAME studios are still in business, while Johnson and the boys are long gone.

Rocky Dijon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ABKCO controls the publishing rights to all the
> songs on STICKY FINGERS (except "You Gotta Move")
> and several songs on EXILE that were listed with
> the copyright office prior to October 1970. The
> rights to the album are controlled by Promotone,
> but the ABKCO settlement allows for approved
> tracks to appear on compilations (HOT ROCKS,
> ROLLED GOLD, THE LONDON YEARS, FORTY LICKS Disc
> One, and SINGLES 1968-1971). Its worth noting
> ABKCO encountered no difficulty including STICKY
> FINGERS outtakes on METAMORPHOSIS either.
> "@#$%& Blues" was also included in early
> pressings of THE REST OF THE BEST box set through
> the ABKCO settlement as well.


Concise and to the point as always. Your understanding of this minefield of copyright issues is always insightful. It always has me baffled!

Sticky Fingers was done back when I was in High School

Thanks, Gazza. Mind you, I can only get screwed by lawyers, but that's what everyone says.

HEILOOBAAS Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think it was Keith's new addiction to junk that
> caused the delays. He talks about being out of it
> in the Nellcote summer '71 interview w/Robert "I
> Am A Stones Parasite" Greenfield.


I did an interview with Greenfield. He was a pretty decent guy to talk to.

J

Rocky Dijon, have you ever contemplated writing a Collectors' Guide
to the Complete Rights & Royalties of the Rolling Stones?
there's a market for it for sure!

I'll wait and see who Taylor gets a publishing deal with first...Just Kidding! Please, no hate mail. Anyway, I had to find something to do once they stopped letting me play my bongos.

>> ABKCO controls the publishing rights to all the songs on STICKY FINGERS ...
The rights to the album are controlled by Promotone <<

while you're here, Rocky Dijon: i think i'm following you right that "the album" in that sentence
is Sticky Fingers? so ... what does it mean in practical terms that Promotone controls the rights to the album
while ABKCO controls the publishing rights to all the songs on it?

The copyright of the recording, STICKY FINGERS is owned by Promotone. No one else can release the songs under that title and with that cover art. The publishing rights to the orginal songs on the album are controlled by ABKCO. The ABKCO settlement allows their use of the individual tracks from STICKY FINGERS for compilations without having to obtain the permission of Promotone.

When STICKY FINGERS was first issued, there was no copyright listing on the album as it was not yet finalized in April 1971. The trademarking of the band's name and logo by Musidor was the only legalese noted on the sleeve and back cover (apart from ABKCO's song publishing credit). EXILE is the first release listing Promotone as copyright holder. Klein could have made a bigger deal about actually owning the STICKY FINGERS album legally. I presume he took a pay-off to let it go.

This also explains why he has access to the outtakes and did not need Promotone's permission to release them. When the band last sued ABKCO in 1984, it was over unpaid royalties and the release of archival material deemed substandard and damaging to their reputation (specifically METAMORPHOSIS and the then-current REST OF THE BEST box set). You can find greater detail (or proof that I'm not making this up) in The New York Times' archive for 1984. Information on the October 1970 copyrighting of unreleased songs can be found at [www.copyright.gov]

This is the site where I discovered things like the early outtake frequently bootlegged as both "Goodbye, Girl" and "Get Back To the One You Love" and credited on many boots as a Bill Wyman composition was registered in early 1965 under the title, "The One You Love" with Jagger/Richards as authors. You can also find the October 1970 listing for "@#$%& Blues" d/b/a "Lonesome Schoolboy Blues" and plenty of others. Even the non-circulating "Blow Me, Mama" was registered for copyright in early 1968 with the requisite audio tape submitted for copyrighting songs. Somewhere in the copyright office archives, doubtless deteriorating with age, are dozens of unreleased Stones songs and simple demos of early Jagger/Richards songwriting efforts without the dreaded overdubbing and remixing Andrew Oldham gave them for METAMORPHOSIS. The very thought makes my mouth water.

thanks Rocky Dijon!
i remember reading about Klein feeling he was very generous in "letting the Stones have" SF ...
and you really should publish a Collectors' Guide to the Complete Rights & Royalties of the Rolling Stones!
i'll buy two. :E

so do you think then that all this legal wrangling was the main delay behind the release of Sticky Fingers?

besides Sticky Fingers, what would be really interesting to know is the true story of HOW EXACTLY Klein-ABKCO gained control over the Stones body of work until at least 1971 (some Exile tracks too). The Stones employed him as their 'manager', but how come he took over the rights to their recordings and publishing?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2007-12-05 19:04 by alimente.

JMARKO Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> HEILOOBAAS Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I think it was Keith's new addiction to junk
> that
> > caused the delays. He talks about being out of
> it
> > in the Nellcote summer '71 interview w/Robert
> "I
> > Am A Stones Parasite" Greenfield.
>
>
> I did an interview with Greenfield. He was a
> pretty decent guy to talk to.
>
> J

John, parasites can be nice, too. I suggest he overblew his intimacy w/the Stones. Much like Chip and Marshall Chess (Von Chess to Pete Rudge).

The Stones were never signed with Decca or London for starters. They were signed to Impact Sound (Andrew Oldham and Eric Easton's company). Impact Sound licensed the recordings to Decca and London Records to distribute the same way Promotone licensed recordings to Atlantic, EMI, CBS/Sony, and Virgin. When the initial distribution deals with Decca and London were up for renewal in 1965, Impact Sound brought in Allen Klein to negotiate a better deal on their and the band's behalf. ABKCO bought the 1963-1965 masters and publishing rights from Impact Sound and their publishing entity, Southern Songs. Easton would subsequently sue Klein and Oldham believing he was screwed royally in the deal. The Stones were now signed to ABKCO Records who negotiated a five-year renewal with Decca and London. Oldham was retained in the ABKCO deal as manager and producer and made out well enough to launch Immediate Records on the side. After the five-year contract term expired in 1970, the Stones were free agents and ABKCO had seven years' worth of hit songs and recordings to repackage endlessly. Hope this helps.

i think you left out the part where the 1965 Stones thought they were signing the publishing rights over to
their own publishing entity - Nanker Phelge Music or something - but what they in fact signed gave all the rights
to an entirely different entity that Klein set up & controlled, called Nanker Phelge Inc.
(i'm sure i've oversimplified that to a ludicrous degree, but hope Rocky Dijon will fix what i've garbled.)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2007-12-05 20:55 by with sssoul.

Nothing garbled at all, you wrote it just as I remember reading about it in Wyman's STONE ALONE. I love the appendix where he includes actual documentation. Maybe we should co-author THE COMPLETE LEGAL HISTORY OF THE ROLLING STONES.

smile: sounds like a plan, Rocky Dijon!

I've never been able to get my head around their 60's legal stuff, reading this certainly helps!

Rocky, sssoul... thanks!

Put me down for a copy of THE COMPLETE LEGAL HISTORY OF THE ROLLING STONES!!!

Of course once we announce a publication date, an injunction from ABKCO and Promotone will cause this to be delayed indefinitely.

About 30 seconds ago !!!

>> Of course once we announce a publication date, an injunction from ABKCO and Promotone
will cause this to be delayed indefinitely. <<

true! so we might as well add what details we can while the going is good:
another aspect of the 1965 ABKCO deal that the Stones became painfully aware of only later
was that although what they signed stipulated that ABKCO would pay them their shares of the record-sales royalties,
there was nothing in the contract about when that would happen. the way i understand it,
that's basically what forced the Stones to the settlement with Klein: he had tons of their money tied up,
but since nothing in the contract meant he had to give it to them any time soon,
they finally accepted the proposition that he'd pay them a sizable chunk of their money
without further horsing around - not all of what he owed them, mind you, just a chunk of it -
if they dropped the fight for the publishing rights he'd screwed them out of with that Nanker Phelge Inc sleight of hand.

Keith's called that "the price of an education". think of that.

a closely related issue is that ABKCO hadn't paid any of the Stones' income tax,
which led to them owing several years' worth of back taxes (at 90% per year) on money they'd never seen.
when Bill said (in 25x5) that there was no way for them to earn the taxes they owed,
that's mainly what he was talking about - and a big part of their motivation for that tax exile
that some people still enjoy to treat as wicked greedy frivolity on their part.

that handful of skinny English cats got screwed so brutally - and they didn't lose heart. think of that.

hail hail Rolling Stones



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2007-12-08 00:11 by with sssoul.

...talk about a deal with the devil - yikes^^