When was SF finished up? I know they began at Muscle Shoals in Dec. 1969 w/YGTM, WH, BS. Dead Flowers and Sister Morphine they kicked around for years. So this leaves Sway, CYHMK, B!tch, Moonlight Mile and I Got the Blues.

here's a real good site for questions like that: [www.nzentgraf.de]
pick a year from the list on the left - for example 1970 - and then search each title you want to know about.
if it's not there, try a year later, or earlier. repeat as necessary. have fun! 3 pound 10 please :E



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2007-11-21 01:10 by with sssoul.

It looks like the album was in the can by June 1970, but there were October 1970 sessions so it's possible some of it was tweaked at that time. Much of the latter session must have been divvying up what was in the vaults as older material re-recorded for EXILE a year later at Nellcote (All Down the Line, Shine a Light, Loving Cup etc.) was still published by ABKCO.

HEILOOBAAS Wrote:
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> When was SF finished up? I know they began at
> Muscle Shoals in Dec. 1969 w/YGTM, WH, BS. Dead
> Flowers and Sister Morphine they kicked around for
> years. So this leaves Sway, CYHMK, B!tch,
> Moonlight Mile and I Got the Blues.


None of the songs on SF were recorded at Muscle Shoals. While several songs were first cut there, the released versions come from 1970, apart from 'Sister Morphine' which was a 'Let It Bleed' outtake from March 1969.

what would you say were the main reasons for the delay? And there are only 9 songs on the finished album.

I'll submit:
- growing self-seriousness of rock music (this is the record they thank everyone who had to sit through a million hours of mixing--and Dark Side of the Moon it ain't)
- establishing Rolling Stones Records (which must have taken about 10 minutes)/legal wrangling with Abkco (rather longer)/signing up with Ahmet Ertegun
- Altamont/60s hangover (if we were rock journalists, this is all we'd mention)
- keith's habit, with the consequence of few new songs written
- busy touring? but the '70 and '71 tours weren't that long.

Gazza Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> HEILOOBAAS Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > When was SF finished up? I know they began at
> > Muscle Shoals in Dec. 1969 w/YGTM, WH, BS. Dead
> > Flowers and Sister Morphine they kicked around
> for
> > years. So this leaves Sway, CYHMK, B!tch,
> > Moonlight Mile and I Got the Blues.
>
>
> None of the songs on SF were recorded at Muscle
> Shoals. While several songs were first cut there,
> the released versions come from 1970, apart from
> 'Sister Morphine' which was a 'Let It Bleed'
> outtake from March 1969.


so where was it recorded

Muscle Shoals, Stargroves and Olympic Studios



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2007-11-22 00:23 by ryanpow.

Gazza Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> None of the songs on SF were recorded at Muscle
> Shoals. While several songs were first cut there,
> the released versions come from 1970, apart from
> 'Sister Morphine' which was a 'Let It Bleed'
> outtake from March 1969.

I don't know if I agree Gazza. The basic tracks (meaning drums, bass, two guitars and for Wild Horses Tack Piano) of BS, WH and YGM were recorded at Muscle Shoals. Overdubs took place in Olympic in 1970. All three songs have a very distinctive drum and bass sound, which separates them from the other tracks.

Mathijs

You and Nico can fight it out, Mathijs...LOL..I'll referee

Good point though (I'll defer to your more musical ear), although it seems they were at least FINISHED in England in 1970.

Pity that it seems that so much of the Muscle Shoals stuff was wiped for some reason.

Gazza Wrote:
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> Pity that it seems that so much of the Muscle
> Shoals stuff was wiped for some reason.


I'm sure you know; but Rolling Stones were afraid of Decca would be taking advantage of their December 1969 recordings - and erased a lot of the Muscle Shoals tapes.
Me too would say that both Brown Sugar, You Gotta Move and Wild Horses are basically from 69, BTW

Mostly Stargroves!

well, there's that scene in Gimme Shelter of them listening to "Wild Horses," right? then later to "Brown Sugar" in the hotel. Those sound like the same basic cuts to me, though I know that "BS" was edited into a baffling number of versions (add this to my list of reasons for the album's delay--though it begs the question, why were they editing it so much?). So unless they're overdubbed...

The Muscle Shoals sessions are another episode that seems blown out of proportion in Stones mythology to me. I mean, there are artists who recorded their whole careers there, not just parts of 3 tracks.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2007-11-21 17:07 by cc.

Jim Dickinson, Muscle Shows producer and pianist for hire, played on "Wild Horses." One would assume he wasn't transported to England soley for that task.

The album was delayed for contractual reasons. The Klein contract did not expire until the end of 1970. Worth noting that Jim Dickinson is now listed as co-producer with Jimmy Miller on the 2004 reissue of MADE IN THE SHADE. A good argument that the Muscle Shoals version is what is heard on STICKY FINGERS. I am aware that "Wild Horses" was reworked in 1970, but I thought it was just Billy Preston's organ track (later removed) and Keith's backing vocal.

I'm not as expert as some folks here, but I coulda sworn that BS and WH were at least partially from Muscle Shoals...there was that interview in the magazine Tape Op, where an engineer on the sessions talked about the making of "Brown Sugar," and it seemed pretty certain that he was talking about *the* basic rhythm tracks that were used on the final released version, the distinctive guitar sound, how the drums were recorded, how the band & amps were set up in the room, etc. Then extensive overdubs were added later, of course. You can hear the differences in the various later overdubs in the different outtake versions (acoustic guitars, Mick Taylor solo, slightly different percussion, etc) but it's always the same rhythm tracks, which I thought were done at Muscle Shoals and heard in the movie Gimme Shelter.

In the film we hear some Mick Talyor lead licks on BS...

I reckon they probably re-did the vocals and added Bobby's solo and added/ditched guitars or whatever in England. It does not sound complete in the film, far from it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2007-11-21 20:33 by His Majesty.

They recorded hours and hours of stuff there, as noted by Stanley Boothe. But as I recall, they only worked on Brown Sugar, You Gotta Move, Say Its Not You and Wild Horses.

JR



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2007-11-21 20:53 by stone-relics.

the piano that Jim Dickenson plays on for Wild Horses was the piano that the band stored their dope in! How cool is that?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2007-11-21 20:43 by ryanpow.

here's that interview with Jimmy Johnson about the Muscle Shoals sessions: [www.prosoundweb.com]

Gazza dear, where is the idea that none of the Muscle Shoals tracks were used coming from, please and thank you?
none of the tracks were *completed* there, but i'm surprised by the statement that those recordings weren't used at all.
the way i've always heard it, the fact that they were used on the album was a big part of the fight with Klein -
who said afterwards that he ever-so-generously "let the Stones have" Sticky Fingers
even though those three tracks were done almost completely in 1969, at Muscle Shoals.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2007-11-21 22:17 by with sssoul.

ABKCo still gets the Royalties on those tracks recorded at Muscle Shoals....How else could Wild Horses and Brown Sugar be on Hot Rocks...

JR

stone-relics Wrote:
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> ABKCo still gets the Royalties on those tracks
> recorded at Muscle Shoals....How else could Wild
> Horses and Brown Sugar be on Hot Rocks...
>
> JR


Nice theory stone-relics, but it's worth remembering that ABKCo certainly do not get any royalties for Sister Morphine (Olympic Studios 1968) or You Gotta Move (Muscle Shoals 1969).

i am cognizant, stones-relics, and Brown Sugar is in that third ABKCO singles box set as well.
what i mean is that what Klein said in the interview i'm remembering (wherever/whenever it was!)
was that the Muscle Shoals tracks on Sticky Fingers were a real Big Deal in the fight -
especially since the film had made it a bit difficult for the Stones to claim that they'd cut those tracks later than 1969.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2007-11-21 21:58 by with sssoul.

Absolutely, with sssoul....I still get angry with ABKco everytime I hear a great Stones song selling some piece of junk....I hate the fact that these great songs are used in advertising.

JR

Barn Owl Wrote:
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> Nice theory stone-relics, but it's worth
> remembering that ABKCo certainly do not get any
> royalties for Sister Morphine (Olympic Studios
> 1968) or You Gotta Move (Muscle Shoals 1969).

The stones Sister Morphine is from 1969 as well. You Gotta Move is a cover, and perhaps there is something weird about SM as it was released on a different label etc by Marianne before.

I can imagine Klein ensuring he got BS and WH's though as they are obviously very strong potential hit songs.

with sssoul Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> here's that interview with Jimmy Johnson about the
> Muscle Shoals sessions:
> [www.prosoundweb.com]
> n/shoals3/sugar.shtml
>
> Gazza dear, where is the idea that none of the
> Muscle Shoals tracks were used coming from, please
> and thank you?
> none of the tracks were *completed* there, but i'm
> surprised by the statement that those recordings
> weren't used at all.

Thats what I mean. They were finished elsewhere, as R and Mathijs suggest

His Majesty Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> The stones Sister Morphine is from 1969 as well.
> You Gotta Move is a cover, and perhaps there is
> something weird about SM as it was released on a
> different label etc by Marianne before.
>

Indeed Your Majesty, though I'm inclined to lean towards Mathijs's assertion that perhaps SM (and certainly several others) were actually FINISHED in 1969. Tom Beach and James Karnbach, from David Dalton's "First Twenty Years", would certainly aver towards this view.

All of which leads us to the very contentious and controversial issue as to the extent of Ry Cooder's involvement.

I would say, based on the available 'evidence' that the actual released version was started and completed in 1969... save for some extra mixing for its inclusion on Sticky Fingers perhaps. Even the outtake version which also features Ry on slide is from spring 1969.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2007-11-22 00:42 by His Majesty.

I think it was Keith's new addiction to junk that caused the delays. He talks about being out of it in the Nellcote summer '71 interview w/Robert "I Am A Stones Parasite" Greenfield.

Barn Owl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> His Majesty Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> >
> > The stones Sister Morphine is from 1969 as
> well.
> > You Gotta Move is a cover, and perhaps there is
> > something weird about SM as it was released on
> a
> > different label etc by Marianne before.
> >
>
> Indeed Your Majesty, though I'm inclined to lean
> towards Mathijs's assertion that perhaps SM (and
> certainly several others) were actually FINISHED
> in 1969. Tom Beach and James Karnbach, from David
> Dalton's "First Twenty Years", would certainly
> aver towards this view.
>
> All of which leads us to the very contentious and
> controversial issue as to the extent of Ry
> Cooder's involvement.


The released version of Sister Morphine is from 31/3/69 per Karnbach and Zentgraf

Zentgraf also states that it may have also been attempted in May 1968.

The 'Jamming with Edward' record with Cooder is from 23/4/69

after Muscle Shoals, they also recorded for a few days at Olympic Studios just before Christmas 1969, working on some of the songs that had been also attempted in the US

FYI- A friend turned me on to a band Great Caesar's Ghost. they do some kick**s covers including Cant you hear me knocking. here's the link-

[www.greatcg.com]

scroll down about 1/2 way down the page. enjoy