I never realized that this would spark off so much reaction, but it's quite gratifying to see so much interest.

First, I am not accustomed to being called a liar by anyone. If I say I personally knew Eric Easton and his wife Mary, who lived in Buckinghamshire UK, it's true. If Mathijs doubts it, I can get hold of Eric's dental records from my father's files.

Second, I have no connection with the BJFC, though I know the people there. I feel that gratuitous bad-mouthing of them serves no purpose. They are doing something they believe in, and not getting a great deal out of it.

Third, I have SEVEN sworn statements from reliable people (one physician, one retired software developer, one solicitor, one company director among them) so Mathijs is calling them liars, too, And that's not too cool.

Sorry, Mathijs, you just don't have a leg to stand on. I'm sure from what the other guys are saying that you know about guitars from A to Z, but in this case I know I'm right. But I'll be very happy to kick the thing around with you if you like - I don't get uptight if the discussion is constructive.

Anyone wants photos, get me on robwilsonit@yahoo.it (talking to bardo_b)

This is an interseting conversation.

1 - Will this be a permanent exhibition or just a "one off? How may articles will be on display? What other types of articles will be on display?

2 - As far as the guitar goes, I still see no "proof" that this was Brian's. Like Mathijs said, unless it's from one of The Stones' mouths someones word really doesn't carry a whole lot of weight. And even if it's the word of a Stone that's really not proof. As with any antique or collectible you would like to see "provenance" or some sort of paper trail like a signed receipt, serial numbers, and irrefutible photographic evidence. Otherwise it's just some bloke's word. Nothing personal but that's just how it is.

It would still be fun to see Eric Easton' dental records though! :-()

robert wilson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> First, I am not accustomed to being called a liar
> by anyone.

No, I didn't call you a liar. If you feel I did, I apologize. All I wanted to say was that your statement is not sufficient as proof that it is actually Brian's guitar. And, in the guitar collecting business, every second guitar or amp has a story attached that it once belonged to a big name player -all to boost the price.

Mathijs

Not again ............ come on

__________________________

Quote
Mathijs
robert wilson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> hi mathijs
>
> sorry to seem churlish, but it IS the same guitar.
> if you speak with pat andrews, who I saw last
> night, she will confirm that this is true. so will
> pat townshend and christie's of london. I bought
> it in the mid sixties from eric easton and have
> had it ever since. it not a "startosphere" but a
> "stratotone", built in the usa in 1959. so the
> guitar does not belong to any collection, but to
> me personally.
>
> I'll be happy to hear from you if you have any
> doubts or comments!
>
> cheers
>
> robert

First, I don't want to speak with Pat Andrews, as the bunch of people around the Brian Jones fanclub are a bunch of utter freaks. Sorry to say that.

Second, in the world of collecting guitars, any claim without proof is worthless. You need a written document with pictures, or you need pictures of the original player/owner where you can really identify the guitar. You can do this for example by comparing the flame pattern of the guitar. Wear and tear is not considered good proof, as that can be easily faked.

You got the guitar from somebody who said it was Brian's original guitar, and unless you have real proof, your claim is void. The Stratotone was a very cheap Wallmart guitar, and thousands and thousands were sold.

Over the years, many guitars were attributed to Jones, but only Brian's Goldtop owned by Bill Wyman is considered real (although even that can't be proven beyond doubt -we have to believe Wyman). His Vox VI is owned by the Hard Rock Cafe, but there were so many doubts that at the Christie's auction it only managed to reach $2500. A Firebird VII has turned up without proof, his Vox Mando guitar was bought by Ron Wood and he claims it was Brian's.

The problem is: I can find a real late '50's Stratotone within three days and claim that my dad got it personally from Brian when he was in London in '64. Would you believe me?

Mathijs

Which Firebird VII has turned up? (without proof) Brian used two- at least, a reverse and a non-reverse (post 1965 model). Surely it would be easy to compare the 'Without Proof' one with photographs of Brian - unless it has been refinished.

You can't proof anything in history if you are enough skeptical. A photo of Brian with that guitar wouldn't really proof anything else that Brian and the guitar were at the same location when the picture was taken. Sometimes you just have to trust what people say unless you have strong reasons to believe they are liars or simply very unreliable witnesses.

Quote
Bärs
You can't proof anything in history if you are enough skeptical. A photo of Brian with that guitar wouldn't really proof anything else that Brian and the guitar were at the same location when the picture was taken. Sometimes you just have to trust what people say unless you have strong reasons to believe they are liars or simply very unreliable witnesses.

Exactly. The testimony of 'plain' photo is not enough in most - or if all - of the cases. And one can always interpret so much odd things from the base of a photo. I give you example. There are people 'out there' who seriously (my god) think that the following picture



is a proof that Brian Jones created and played the famous intro of "Gimme Shelter"...

I mean - interpreting the testimony of photo is a one needs a lot of common sense and critical mind...

- Doxa



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2008-12-09 14:59 by Doxa.

Hahaha, yeah, I've been following that ridiculous thread over at lars -

[www.createforum.com]

What a bunch of idiots! ><

Quote
His Majesty
Hahaha, yeah, I've been following that ridiculous thread over at lars -

[www.createforum.com]

D<

Me too, and made few observations. The thread is based on a long history of 'discussions' I'm familiar with. They have this funny premise with which they start with:

(1) Everything what Jagger or Richards say is a "lie".

This, however, is an induction based on the observation that Mick and Keith - or "Dick" and "Thief" to use the proper LARS vocabulary - sometimes have a fuzzy memories or talk contradictories. So, if a liar is once caught, then we can never been sure if anything he ever says is a lie also. So, lets's methodologically treat anything Dick and Thief says lies!

This is supported by certain basic beliefs (shared by every TRUE Brian Jones fan a'la LARS):

(1.1) Jagger and Richards are talentless @#$%&, capable barely ripping off other people's ideas.

(1.2) Anything great related ever to the Stones comes from Brian Jones.

So, if, say, Keith claims having invented and played the intro of "Gimme Shelter", a piece of music everyone agrees is magnificient, on the base of this claim and keeping (1) on mind, we can imply that

(2) Keith Richards not invented or played the intro of "Gimme Shelter".

Okay. Great. Now we can enter the 'proofs' section. We 'know' that the intro is played by Maton guitar. I don't know how 'they' know that: perhaps they believe Keith in this matter or trust the ears of expert people like Mathijs and His Majesty><). Therefore, if we have a photo of Brian holding the very guitar in his hand, we can happily - of course, keeping the immanent basic beliefs 1.1. and 1.2. in mind - conclude:

(3) Brian Jones invented and played the intro of "Gimme Shelter".

The case is closed. Well, in fact the 'conclusion' could have been made straight from the premises 1.1. and 1.2, but now it looks more convincing, doesn't it!

(This basically is the argumentation used at LARS!)

Sorry for boring anyone with a stuff like this - I'm gonna have a party tonight, and I'm already taking a few...

- Doxa



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2008-12-09 16:02 by Doxa.

thanks Doxa, depressing stuff, indeed.

- are these the BJFC crazies, operating
under a new name?

Those people are completely bonkers and don't seem to realize that their ridiculous posts are detrimental to how others perceive Brian.

I also wonder if they get any happiness from listening to The Rolling Stones recordings!?

It seems like they strongly hate Mick and Keith and their music, which means they actually hate the majority of rolling stones music.

Truly puzzling!

they're just saddo's banging their heads against a brick wall,
for their perceived 'cause'.
As long as they're indulging in their hobby, they're not walking the streets

has anyone been to this museum? worth a visit the next time we're in london for the stones?

Quote
little queenie
has anyone been to this museum? worth a visit the next time we're in london for the stones?

anyone?

OKOKOKOK OK - we have strayed a little off topic regarding proof's I of course accept that a photo of Brian Jones 'holding' a Maton is no evidence of any recorded classic passage of music being played, its being mischievious - but I am curious as to the speculation that a Firebird guitar has turned up 'without proof' can the original poster shed any details regarding which type of Firebird.1963-65 model or the post 1965 type.367



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2008-12-10 04:49 by deepinder.

Is this the web site?

[indigo.ie]

[www.iorr.org]

Quote
SwayStones
Is this the web site?

[indigo.ie]

[www.iorr.org]

Golly! I found the 'site' rather depressing.

Quote
deepinder

Quote
SwayStones
Is this the web site?

[indigo.ie]

[www.iorr.org]

Golly! I found the 'site' rather depressing.

this isn't for the museum - this is his son julian's web site. i don't think he lives in london. i've seen his site before on IORR but the links on this incarnation don't all work. nice guy - i met him when we were all about 19 (i think we're the same age) at a small donovan show in the bay area. an older friend who thought he was a buddy convinced me to show up at his hotel room, unannounced. i'm not sure if he's known for anything other than his genetics.

edit: i just clicked on the iorr link above and had no idea that he was a musician. i'm not surprised but i didn't get the feeling that he was as much of a freak as he seems to be now - judging by some of the pics in that old site of voodoo chile.

i don't have time to read if he sings or what he plays. will someone quickly summarize for me?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2008-12-11 07:33 by little queenie.