I hate the mothertruckers. Scalpers that is - or touts as they're referred to in the UK. So do lots of others it would seem.

Picked up the following article off the web that talks about "technology" being the key to defeating the bastards once and for all, or at least making life SO difficult for them that it would put the majority off.

[www.scenta.co.uk]

Thoughts, ideas, comments ?

Touts are just the "pidgeons" of society..a thorough menace!


Dog

[news.bbc.co.uk]

[news.bbc.co.uk]

[news.bbc.co.uk]

[newsforums.bbc.co.uk]

[news.bbc.co.uk]

[news.bbc.co.uk]

[home.seatbooker.net]

[www.westminster.gov.uk]

Seems to me that half the time today the biggest scalpers are the official ticket vendors ;^)

I don't like scalping either... it makes it nearly impossible for fans to get tickets. However, if a show isn't sold out or isn't that "hot" and you have the nerve to wait out the scalpers outside the concert hall... you can get a bargain. It helps to live in the vicinity of the concert.

I did that at Giants Stadium last September, having already seen the Stones in Philly/NYC a handful of times during ABB. The show in East Rutherford wasn't sold out & I drove over and told one of several scalpers that I'd give him $20 for his nosebleed ticket. "I'd rather burn it!" he sneered at 8:30 pm, as the first band took the stage. He found me a half hour later and took the $20.

To tell the truth, I had merely applied the lesson that I had learned from a year or so before that. Prince had played at The Meadlowlands and I had purchased four good tickets for $100 each. I had one extra and planned to sell it outside the concert before the show, and make my money back... basically our three remaining seats would be free if I could get $300 for the one ticket.

I knew that I was in trouble when we got off the highway and turned into the parking lot. There were two guys at the driveway into the parking lot trying to sell their tickets. When I saw that, I correctly assumed that I'd be lucky to sell the ticket at all. Believe it or not, Prince was not a hot ticket... for some reason.

A guy came up to me and offered me $20 for the Prince ticket. I took it.

Banks, Finance companies, Real Estate agents, Lawers, Tax depts, Venue Operators, These are the real scalpers, they will do you more harm than those who want to rip a few bucks for a ticket of you. Forgot to mention Insurence Companies.

Spud Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Seems to me that half the time today the biggest
> scalpers are the official ticket vendors ;^)


Like Harvey Goldsmith ...

Nikolai Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Spud Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Seems to me that half the time today the
> biggest
> > scalpers are the official ticket vendors ;^)
>
>
> Like Harvey Goldsmith ...


It would seem as if our dear friend Harvey has got something to say himself on the subject of ticket touts ... the text below is taken from one of these BBC news articles (third one down in the list of my post earlier in this thread).

-----------------------------

Concert, theatre and sport promoters are calling for ticket touting to be made illegal, saying the internet has made it easier to rip fans off.
Major promoters are joining forces to make their case at a meeting with Culture Secretary Tessa Jowell.

Some unofficial agencies and auctions deceive and defraud fans as well as charging high prices, promoters say.

But the government is not convinced a new law is needed and wants promoters to tackle the problem themselves.

Events from Live 8 to The Ashes and concerts by stars including Robbie Williams, Sir Cliff Richard and The Darkness have all recently fallen victim to online touts.

Promoters say a new anti-touting law for the 2012 London Olympics should be extended to all events. Touting is currently only illegal at football matches to prevent hooliganism.

<<<< "The fact that touts are allowed to trade at concerts is a disgrace," Live 8 promoter Harvey Goldsmith told the BBC News website.

"If the government are proposing legislation for the Olympics then they must include entertainment." >>>>

-----------------------------


So I really don't know if Harvey is one of the good guys or one of the bad guys ?

Ticket Buying Limits are a problem.

Many shows allow a 8-12 tickets per transaction in the USA. There is very little reason for anyone to really need more than 2-4 tickets. If buying for friends, let the friends get their own.

Some bands have a 2 ticket limit in the front sections, but not many.

Cut down the ticket limit and instead of a show selling out in 40 minutes, it will take an hour. At least more people had a chance to buy.

I love touts, salt of the earth, doing a sterling job for concert goers.

many times i've headed to a concert without a ticket and managed to pick up a ticket outside the venue, usually cheaper than the actual price on the ticket!
That includes Stones concerts.

Only time i've paid higher than the actual asking price was Alice Cooper at the Wolverhapton Civic Hall, but it was a sellout and a small venue for him.

Also got burned once when I bought a ticket for Whitesnake, only it was a rescheduled date, and the ticket I bought was for the original date, which wasn't valid.

Other than that, I'm out on top when it comes to buying tickets off touts.

Bring em on - they're doing a job and trying to earn a crust - and peforming an invaluable customer service!

Monkeytonkman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I love touts, salt of the earth, doing a sterling
> job for concert goers.
>
> many times i've headed to a concert without a
> ticket and managed to pick up a ticket outside the
> venue, usually cheaper than the actual price on
> the ticket!
> That includes Stones concerts.
>
> Only time i've paid higher than the actual asking
> price was Alice Cooper at the Wolverhapton Civic
> Hall, but it was a sellout and a small venue for
> him.
>
> Also got burned once when I bought a ticket for
> Whitesnake, only it was a rescheduled date, and
> the ticket I bought was for the original date,
> which wasn't valid.
>
> Other than that, I'm out on top when it comes to
> buying tickets off touts.
>
> Bring em on - they're doing a job and trying to
> earn a crust - and peforming an invaluable
> customer service!

I'm afraid I couldn't disagree more. I think there always has been a place and always will be a place for the person who genuinely can't attend a gig and sells a ticket or two for face value, either outside a venue on the night or on a ticket trade board or e-bay - now that we're all well entrenched in the internet era. But I'm really talking about wholesale touting here, the kind that has you see shows sell out within minutes and where a staggering proportion of all tickets (a third or even more in some cases) can be seen for sale at HUGELY inflated prices on sites like ebay and those of all these ticket resellers masquerading as legitimate agencies - within literally minutes of having gone on sale. You can't seriously maintain that those kind of people and organisations are performing an invaluable customer service ???

One way to look at it is that Promoters and Artists should not care where the tickets end...promoters want shows to sell out. Let the touts buy up all they want. Promoters will save on advertising the event and have the money to pay for the artist.

What hurts is that some artists see what people are willing to pay for great seats in the secondary markets and then think they should change their own pricing structure.

trainarollin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> One way to look at it is that Promoters and
> Artists should not care where the tickets
> end...promoters want shows to sell out. Let the
> touts buy up all they want. Promoters will save on
> advertising the event and have the money to pay
> for the artist.
>
> What hurts is that some artists see what people
> are willing to pay for great seats in the
> secondary markets and then think they should
> change their own pricing structure.

<<< One way to look at it is that Promoters and Artists should not care where the tickets end ... promoters want shows to sell out. Let the touts buy up all they want. Promoters will save on advertising the event and have the money to pay for the artist >>>

And a postscript you might as well add is "and the humble fan gets royally screwed". No, I don't think that's a good way to look at the whole issue I'm afraid.

<<< What hurts is that some artists see what people are willing to pay for great seats in the secondary markets and then think they should change their own pricing structure >>>

Well, the way I look at it, the ONE AND ONLY only possible advantage of artists setting high ticket prices, such as say the Stones setting $450 in the States or £150 in the UK this last time round, is that because the face value is already so high, it makes further price inflation increasingly difficult because it genuinely puts the price beyond what people are either able or willing to pay. You do tend to notice that say tickets here in the UK that are priced at say £50/60/70, when they're touted the asking price seems to be x 3 or x 4 quite often. Whereby when they're priced much higher, say £150, the multiplication factor tends to be lower, because if not - it simply propels the price into the realms of the absurd and out of reach of 99 percent of potentially interested parties.

My own view is that there's a compromise out there somewhere, possibly a twofold one. The government need to get off its arse and recognise that some form of legislation IS actually required, and secondly - today's technology with respect to the capture of personal ID information at the time of ticket purchase will (if applied properly after being well thought out) go a long way towards discriminating against speculative re-sellers and at the same time make allowances for genuine innocents who wish to pass on/transfer to another person a ticket or two they've bought but are unable or unwilling to use themselves. A solution IS out there, it's just like all solutions to all problems: there is first and foremostly a need to recgonise there's a sodding problem, and beyond that - there needs to be a WILL to develop and implement a solution. At the moment, there's an undercurrent of bitching and moaning out there, but no-one's really taking the bull by the horns and saying "this is shit and we've gotta do something about it". I do sense that little by little some kind of momentum is building up, you can kind of tell that by the number of articles on the subject that crop up with increasing frequency in the media these days; and that would typically be because the problem of touting would be generally perceived to be getting worse. But it's got a way to go.

We live in hope, at least I do !!



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2007-09-06 23:20 by paulywaul.

The way I see it, it's supply and demand. You're not going to get rid of scalpers/touts, so you may as well use them to your advantage and save a lot of money on your tickets. I don't think there's all that great a difference between scalpers and people who buy stock in companies or buy houses strictly to resell them at higher prices.

I go to around 75-100 concerts per year and for the vast majority of them, I don't buy tickets in advance and just try my luck on the night of the show. For almost every concert I see, I pay way below face value. Because I go to so many shows, I always run into the professional scalpers here in Los Angeles who all pretty much know me on site and know that I have a reputation of not wanting to spend more than around $20 to see a show. Most of the time, I'll buy a ticket off a fan who got stuck with an extra, rather than buying off the scalpers, but I'll use them as well. For a lot of the shows I go to, I have the attitude where if I don't find a ticket priced low enough for my taste, I'm willing to turn around and leave.

I've even used the scalpers to my advantage when seeing shows in other countries. In 2003 I saw Bruce Springsteen in London where he played 2 shows in a stadium and the tickets were priced at 40 pounds. For the first night as I got off the train, I saw a tout trying to sell tickets. I thought I was doing well by buying a ticket for 20 pounds, which was less than 1/2 price when you add in booking fees. As I got closer to the venue I saw a lot of them trying to unload tickets. I decided for the second night, that my maximum would be 10 pounds. On the second night, I did indeed pay only 10 pounds to get in, though it took a few minutes longer to negotiate than it did on the firts night. On the saem trip I saw Paul McCartney in Sheffield and payed a tour about 1/2 price for a good seat 1/2 way back on the floor.

In the USA, scalpers lost big on the upcoming Genesis tour that starts tomorrow. Most markets in the USA are BOMBING. Some venues not even half the tickets are sold and those are 15,000 seaters.

So a benefit of that would be if I would decide to see them, I may be able to get a face price ticket of $225 for $75 or less?

Paulywaul: I dig what your'e saying - when i think of touts I my mind always goes to the guys standing outside concerts trying to buy and sell.

Don't really make the connection between the internet and touts - but of course you are right. altough i feel that these are more of the 'white collar' touts, than the more blue collar ones you find outside the venues

I'd rather go to a concert and try to get a ticket outside the venue than fanny about on the internet paying over inflated prices.

Travelled round Europe for the last month of this Stones tour and managed to get tickets off touts at Gothenburg, Copenhagen and Dusseldorf, without the 'real' touts I wouldn't have got in so I still stick up for them.

I have no complaints against those touts who simply go about buying up surplus tickets outside of a venue and making a few bob by selling them on to others. These guys actually DO provide a service, for a relatively small return.

On a larger scale however, the organised activities of some professional touts can leave a very nasty taste in the mouth. Fans of Bruce Springsteen, who had queued outside Wembley Arena for up to three nights in order to secure tickets for his only UK gig of 2003, were confronted by a lorry load of knife-wielding baddies from Liverpool who simply pushed themselves to the front of the queue an hour or so before they went on sale. Anybody who tried to stand in their way was threatened in no uncertain terms.

Again for Springsteen, I queued up all night outside Manchester Arena last year, finding myself fourth in line, in front of about forty or more young kids (aged 14- 18) who were being paid £25 each to secure tickets on behalf of their "group leaders". I spent the night chatting to these guys who were actually quite affable and kind enough to share their beer with me and describe the entire operation under which they were working. They weren't the slightest bit interested in Bruce Springsteen, and the kids had to have his name written on a piece of paper so that they could make the correct request on reaching the box office!

Some of them thought that they were buying Take That tickets again!

Needless to say, by the time I reached home, all of their tickets were on ebay.

As an end-piece to this story, I sadly had to resort to using one of these guys when I was desperate to see Liverpool play in the European Cup Final in Athens earlier this year. I simply phoned them up, a price was negotiated, and they delivered direct to my door, all the way from Manchester. The source of these tickets? A fellow season ticket holder who had been lucky in the ballot and wanted to make a few bob.

The moral of this story: as long as the greedy can be matched to the desperate, there will be big bucks to be made.

trainarollin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> In the USA, scalpers lost big on the upcoming
> Genesis tour that starts tomorrow. Most markets in
> the USA are BOMBING. Some venues not even half the
> tickets are sold and those are 15,000 seaters.
>
> So a benefit of that would be if I would decide to
> see them, I may be able to get a face price ticket
> of $225 for $75 or less?


thats probably because Genesis is boring.

I would go if it was $10 or less, other than that... no way.

Incredible story about the squad from Liverpool, Logie !, never heard anything like that.
I thought 99% of the sales went through internet and phone the last 10 years....? They save the best seats for the people queing up ?
Internet/phone is a better way of spreading the goods - one would think.

I didn't get any ticket for Bruce in Norway -allthough I tried, just read that the phone system broke down...that's why I didn't get through - and all 8000 tickets were sold within minutes.
At least I got 5th row for Bill Wyman....weeks after they put those ones out for sale.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2007-09-06 23:44 by Erik_Snow.

i have mixed feelings. the stones theater shows are where i've paid a high price to scalpers. the internet has made it so easy to buy up precious tickets from afar (the tower theater show sales tried to get around this, much to my dismay, only allowing sales to people with a philadelphia address).

however, they do provide a service in the sense that if you're not lucky enough to get a theater ticket for the regular price, at least you can find a ticket to that show - as they say, it's never "sold out".

the price i've paid for scalped stones theater tickets, which seem outrageous compared to the face value, haven't been much more than what the stones charge for tickets in seated arena shows.

even ticketmasteris joining the game by providing a service to people who want to sell tickets, similar to stub hub.

i make up for the high prices i've paid to scalpers and to ticketmaster by getting cheap last minute tickets outside venues from scalpers desperate just to get $10.

paulywaul Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Nikolai Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Spud Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Seems to me that half the time today the
> > biggest
> > > scalpers are the official ticket vendors ;^)
> >
> >
> > Like Harvey Goldsmith ...
>
>
> It would seem as if our dear friend Harvey has got
> something to say himself on the subject of ticket
> touts ... the text below is taken from one of
> these BBC news articles (third one down in the
> list of my post earlier in this thread).
>
> -----------------------------
>
> Concert, theatre and sport promoters are calling
> for ticket touting to be made illegal, saying the
> internet has made it easier to rip fans off.
> Major promoters are joining forces to make their
> case at a meeting with Culture Secretary Tessa
> Jowell.
>
> Some unofficial agencies and auctions deceive and
> defraud fans as well as charging high prices,
> promoters say.
>
> But the government is not convinced a new law is
> needed and wants promoters to tackle the problem
> themselves.
>
> Events from Live 8 to The Ashes and concerts by
> stars including Robbie Williams, Sir Cliff Richard
> and The Darkness have all recently fallen victim
> to online touts.
>
> Promoters say a new anti-touting law for the 2012
> London Olympics should be extended to all events.
> Touting is currently only illegal at football
> matches to prevent hooliganism.
>
> <<<< "The fact that touts are allowed to trade at
> concerts is a disgrace," Live 8 promoter Harvey
> Goldsmith told the BBC News website.
>
> "If the government are proposing legislation for
> the Olympics then they must include
> entertainment." >>>>
>
> -----------------------------
>
>
> So I really don't know if Harvey is one of the
> good guys or one of the bad guys ?


Well, you see, what Harvey is is a hypocrite. He releases a tiny fraction of the tickets to the agencies, sells the rest to touts who capitalise on the initial rush to buy tickets. When the rush ebbs to a trickle the unsold tickets are then sold back to the agencies who release them. Harvey always makes his Gold.

Not going to happen - free enterprise is too sweet.

LOGIE Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I have no complaints against those touts who
> simply go about buying up surplus tickets outside
> of a venue and making a few bob by selling them on
> to others. These guys actually DO provide a
> service, for a relatively small return.
>
> On a larger scale however, the organised
> activities of some professional touts can leave a
> very nasty taste in the mouth. Fans of Bruce
> Springsteen, who had queued outside Wembley Arena
> for up to three nights in order to secure tickets
> for his only UK gig of 2003, were confronted by a
> lorry load of knife-wielding baddies from
> Liverpool who simply pushed themselves to the
> front of the queue an hour or so before they went
> on sale. Anybody who tried to stand in their way
> was threatened in no uncertain terms.
>
> Again for Springsteen, I queued up all night
> outside Manchester Arena last year, finding myself
> fourth in line, in front of about forty or more
> young kids (aged 14- 18) who were being paid £25
> each to secure tickets on behalf of their "group
> leaders". I spent the night chatting to these guys
> who were actually quite affable and kind enough to
> share their beer with me and describe the entire
> operation under which they were working. They
> weren't the slightest bit interested in Bruce
> Springsteen, and the kids had to have his name
> written on a piece of paper so that they could
> make the correct request on reaching the box
> office!
>
> Some of them thought that they were buying Take
> That tickets again!
>
> Needless to say, by the time I reached home, all
> of their tickets were on ebay.
>
> As an end-piece to this story, I sadly had to
> resort to using one of these guys when I was
> desperate to see Liverpool play in the European
> Cup Final in Athens earlier this year. I simply
> phoned them up, a price was negotiated, and they
> delivered direct to my door, all the way from
> Manchester. The source of these tickets? A fellow
> season ticket holder who had been lucky in the
> ballot and wanted to make a few bob.
>
> The moral of this story: as long as the greedy can
> be matched to the desperate, there will be big
> bucks to be made.


Supply and demand, the foundation of world economies. Scalping will never be outlawed.

paulywaul Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> And a postscript you might as well add is "and the
> humble fan gets royally screwed". No, I don't
> think that's a good way to look at the whole issue
> I'm afraid.
>

The fans screw themselves by paying that much. IT'S JUST A CONCERT FOLKS, not heart surgery. If the people didn't pay the HIGH prices, the prices would drop and eventually they would stop selling altogether.


> My own view is that there's a compromise out there
> somewhere, possibly a twofold one. The government
> need to get off its arse and recognise that some
> form of legislation IS actually required,

Doesn't your government have better things to do? You need them to hold your hand through EVERYTHING?

trainarollin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Ticket Buying Limits are a problem.
>
> Many shows allow a 8-12 tickets per transaction in
> the USA. There is very little reason for anyone to
> really need more than 2-4 tickets. If buying for
> friends, let the friends get their own.
>
> Some bands have a 2 ticket limit in the front
> sections, but not many.
>
> Cut down the ticket limit and instead of a show
> selling out in 40 minutes, it will take an hour.
> At least more people had a chance to buy.

Well, shows with high ticket limits usually don't sell out very quickly. The reason for the high limits are not so much to encourage scalping but to shift the responsibility for moving the tickets from the promotor and ticket vendor to the fan turning them into surrogate Ticketmaster. Lots of people buy up a lot of tickets then try to get their friends aboard. Those are the kind of people who often provide me and Halup with our tickets. Again this is done to the financial advantage of Ticketmaster and the band, not the people who buy the tickets.

Nikolai Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> Supply and demand, the foundation of world
> economies. Scalping will never be outlawed.


You are absolutely spot on.

...and the Harvey Goldsmiths of this world know that more than most.

i would rather pay a bit more and know my ticket was "bonafide" than risk a little bit less (which can still be a lot of money)...

Dog

"i would rather pay a bit more and know my ticket was "bonafide" than risk a little bit less (which can still be a lot of money)... "

Right now I am glad so much attention was given to the fradulent Ticketfast tickets at the U2 Boston show 2 years ago. When they go on Ebay, people just don't bid on them and the amount I am risking is worth the gamble. Saw The Police for $22.50 and got 2 tickets for the sold out $60 Beastie Boys Wiltern show for $16.99 total.

Dan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> paulywaul Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> >
> > And a postscript you might as well add is "and
> the
> > humble fan gets royally screwed". No, I don't
> > think that's a good way to look at the whole
> issue
> > I'm afraid.
> >
>
> The fans screw themselves by paying that much.
> IT'S JUST A CONCERT FOLKS, not heart surgery. If
> the people didn't pay the HIGH prices, the prices
> would drop and eventually they would stop selling
> altogether.
>
>
> > My own view is that there's a compromise out
> there
> > somewhere, possibly a twofold one. The
> government
> > need to get off its arse and recognise that
> some
> > form of legislation IS actually required,
>
> Doesn't your government have better things to do?
> You need them to hold your hand through
> EVERYTHING?

<<< Doesn't your government have better things to do ? >>>

No, not necessarily. There's always a "to do" list, who's to say where the business of addressing THIS particular issue resides on it in terms of priorities. You'd rate it high enough if you yourself worked in the branch of government that dealt with "the arts" and had become aware of this groundswell of opinion out there that this WAS an issue that required looking at and possiblky acting upon.

<<< You need them to hold your hand through EVERYTHING ? >>>

Yeah right ? So how's life in the "land of the free" then ? You jest my friend, don't make me laugh. Take a good look at life on your home turf before making absurd remarks like that.

paulywaul Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Dan Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > paulywaul Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> >
> > >
> > > And a postscript you might as well add is
> "and
> > the
> > > humble fan gets royally screwed". No, I don't
> > > think that's a good way to look at the whole
> > issue
> > > I'm afraid.
> > >
> >
> > The fans screw themselves by paying that much.
> > IT'S JUST A CONCERT FOLKS, not heart surgery.
> If
> > the people didn't pay the HIGH prices, the
> prices
> > would drop and eventually they would stop
> selling
> > altogether.
> >
> >
> > > My own view is that there's a compromise out
> > there
> > > somewhere, possibly a twofold one. The
> > government
> > > need to get off its arse and recognise that
> > some
> > > form of legislation IS actually required,
> >
> > Doesn't your government have better things to
> do?
> > You need them to hold your hand through
> > EVERYTHING?
>
> <<< Doesn't your government have better things to
> do ? >>>
>
> No, not necessarily. There's always a "to do"
> list, who's to say where the business of
> addressing THIS particular issue resides on it in
> terms of priorities. You'd rate it high enough if
> you yourself worked in the branch of government
> that dealt with "the arts" and had become aware of
> this groundswell of opinion out there that this
> WAS an issue that required looking at and
> possiblky acting upon.
>
> <<< You need them to hold your hand through
> EVERYTHING ? >>>
>
> Yeah right ? So how's life in the "land of the
> free" then ? You jest my friend, don't make me
> laugh. Take a good look at life on your home turf
> before making absurd remarks like that.

Certainly no problems getting tickets for whatever I want and on the flipside definitely no problem doing what I want with the tickets I already have.